Author Topic: Pizzarium  (Read 176746 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline totally_baked

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 23
  • Location: Los Angeles
  • Time is the answer.
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1175 on: November 05, 2012, 04:28:05 PM »
Have you seasoned your pan?   Even if you have you might need to wipe it down with oil and let it sit in a hot oven a few more times.  

Hi Scott.  Thanks for your suggestion.  Never even thought of that.  I'm just using standard 1/2 sheet pans that I've used for years but I've never seasoned them.  Is that something everyone else is doing and I just missed it?  If so, I'll try it. 

For the record, when I've been to Sullivan Street Bakery in NYC, I notice that their sheet pans are black, like they never wash them.  Kind of like my cast iron pan but with more stuff caked on.  Is that what you mean by seasoned?

Thanks for the advice.  Much appreciated!


Offline totally_baked

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 23
  • Location: Los Angeles
  • Time is the answer.
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1176 on: November 05, 2012, 04:28:59 PM »
Have you tried Crisco or another solid shortening? Don't overdo it, but leave enough that you can see a white film.

I'll try anything at this point.  I'm desperate.  Thanks!

Offline giulio.fabris

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 69
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1177 on: November 05, 2012, 04:32:07 PM »
I spread some durum wheat on the pan (aluminum pan) before rolling out the dough in it, you can try that if you haven't already.

Does anyone know why I'm having trouble with my dough sticking to the baking sheet?  I tried it a few times (more oil, less oil, no oil on the sheet) and each time it sticks really badly - so badly that I have to scrape the bread off with a metal spatula.  So, I've ditched the pan and have been cooking it straight on the oven hearth.  

However, this thread is filled with gorgeous photos of beautiful pies baked in pans and it just makes me wonder what I'm doing wrong.  Does anyone have any suggestions?  I'm using between 80 and 90% hydration dough with a few little variations here and there but nothing major.  

Thanks to you all for making this thread happen.  It's truly epic!


Offline RamirOk

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 65
  • Age: 27
  • Location: Monterrey, Nuevo Leon. Mexico
    • Personal site
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1178 on: November 05, 2012, 06:49:19 PM »
Does anyone know why I'm having trouble with my dough sticking to the baking sheet?  I tried it a few times (more oil, less oil, no oil on the sheet) and each time it sticks really badly - so badly that I have to scrape the bread off with a metal spatula.  So, I've ditched the pan and have been cooking it straight on the oven hearth.  

However, this thread is filled with gorgeous photos of beautiful pies baked in pans and it just makes me wonder what I'm doing wrong.  Does anyone have any suggestions?  I'm using between 80 and 90% hydration dough with a few little variations here and there but nothing major.  

Thanks to you all for making this thread happen.  It's truly epic!


You already got very good suggestions.
I would add that maybe you should use more flour when you are shaping the dough before putting it into the pan (Bonci use a lot), it shouldn't be sticky.

Offline totally_baked

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 23
  • Location: Los Angeles
  • Time is the answer.
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1179 on: November 05, 2012, 07:52:26 PM »
You already got very good suggestions.
I would add that maybe you should use more flour when you are shaping the dough before putting it into the pan (Bonci use a lot), it shouldn't be sticky.

Yeah, I noticed that.  My dough is very, very sticky. 

One thing about Bonci's dough which I wonder about is that, in his class at least, he sometimes appears to use a lower hydration dough (closer to 70%, I believe) than many people are using for Pizza Bianca on this site (closer to 80%).  70% is obviously more manageable and doesn't require as much bench flour compared with 80%+.  Maybe he does it so he doesn't frustrate his first-time students?

Anyway, the hydration that I'm playing with these days is anywhere from 80% to almost 100%, because this is the range I've heard about for other places who do Pizza Bianca like Sullivan Street, Campo de Fiori and Bosco. 

I just wonder out loud how many of these bakeries are doing something like a 20 minute intensive mix using a high speed spiral mixer?  I look at the dough in the Campo de Fiori video 1) in the mixer (around 00:15) and 2) coming out of bulk fermentation (around 00:27) and it doesn't look like my 80%+ hydration dough at all

http://www.fornocampodefiori.com/mediaplayer/popup.html

Mine looks more like liquid levain and is very difficult to handle at 80% while theirs has so much gluten development and appears so much easier to handle and shape.  It doesn't even stick to the metal table in the video?!?  I've heard that Jim Lahey says that his Pizza Bianca dough is the only dough in his bakery that doesn't work with his "no knead" technique.  If only I had a high speed spiral mixer in my apartment.  Maybe I could solve the mystery...


Offline JBailey

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 180
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1180 on: November 05, 2012, 07:59:21 PM »
totally baked:

In Daniel Leader's "Local Breads" he also describes a similar intensive mixing process that he observed with respect to Pizza Bianca in Rome. In the past I've had the opportunity to chat with a baker who makes Pizza al Taglio in Italy (granted not in Rome) and he told me he mixes to full gluten development before a lengthy bulk fermentation. He was using a sourdough leavening.



Offline JBailey

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 180
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1181 on: November 05, 2012, 08:07:46 PM »
I suspect that in a commercial setting, the intensive mix is standard practice. Bonci's folding method was probably adapted for homebakers. However the FIRST time I ever saw the folding method advocated to make Pizza Bianca was in a Slice seriouseats article about 3 years ago by someone called "Foolish Poolish"?. I can't find the recipe anymore as it seems they've taken it down. All I can find on that website nowadays is James Kenji-Alt's version.

Offline totally_baked

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 23
  • Location: Los Angeles
  • Time is the answer.
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1182 on: November 05, 2012, 08:24:20 PM »
Yes, Foolish Poolish is the man.  His attempts at pizza bianca in the style of Sullivan and Campo de Fiori is as good as it gets from a home baker IMO.  I'm not quite sure how he does it.  The proof is in the pics...
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12651.msg121361.html#msg121361

Offline JBailey

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 180
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1183 on: November 05, 2012, 08:49:55 PM »
Yeah. @totally baked. I realise I've seen that thread before. I remember the Daniel Leader "Local Breads" reference. The book is pretty good although not really aimed at pizza makers per se.


Offline Matthew

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2264
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1184 on: November 06, 2012, 06:11:50 AM »
Yeah, I noticed that.  My dough is very, very sticky. 

One thing about Bonci's dough which I wonder about is that, in his class at least, he sometimes appears to use a lower hydration dough (closer to 70%, I believe) than many people are using for Pizza Bianca on this site (closer to 80%).  70% is obviously more manageable and doesn't require as much bench flour compared with 80%+.  Maybe he does it so he doesn't frustrate his first-time students?

Anyway, the hydration that I'm playing with these days is anywhere from 80% to almost 100%, because this is the range I've heard about for other places who do Pizza Bianca like Sullivan Street, Campo de Fiori and Bosco. 

I just wonder out loud how many of these bakeries are doing something like a 20 minute intensive mix using a high speed spiral mixer?  I look at the dough in the Campo de Fiori video 1) in the mixer (around 00:15) and 2) coming out of bulk fermentation (around 00:27) and it doesn't look like my 80%+ hydration dough at all

http://www.fornocampodefiori.com/mediaplayer/popup.html

Mine looks more like liquid levain and is very difficult to handle at 80% while theirs has so much gluten development and appears so much easier to handle and shape.  It doesn't even stick to the metal table in the video?!?  I've heard that Jim Lahey says that his Pizza Bianca dough is the only dough in his bakery that doesn't work with his "no knead" technique.  If only I had a high speed spiral mixer in my apartment.  Maybe I could solve the mystery...



The dough is mixed with a 2 stage process or "double hydration".

Stage 1 (speed 1) is all the flour, yeast or starter & 80% of the total formula water.  After a couple of minutes add the salt. Once almost fully developed you add the formula oil & continue to mix until fully developed or "windowpane stage".   

Stage 2 (2nd speed) Slowly add the remaining 20% water.  It needs to added in a slow stream as close to the breaker bar as possible so that the dough does not break apart & continue to mix until all the water is absorbed.  You know your there when the dough becomes very shiny & extremely elastic.

I have a single speed spiral mixer at home with a hook speed of 178 RPM.  The average 2 phase commercial spiral runs at 100 RPM on speed 1 & 200 rpm on speed 2.  I average it out and can accomplish a fully developed cohesive mass in about a 15 minute mix.

Matt

Offline totally_baked

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 23
  • Location: Los Angeles
  • Time is the answer.
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1185 on: November 06, 2012, 12:44:06 PM »
Thanks for breaking it down for me, Matt.  I wish I had a spiral mixer at home like you so I could take your advice and put it into action.  My KitchenAid is only good for incorporation on 1st speed.  Double hydration doesn't appear to be an option with my mixer, unless someone has a trick I haven't figured out yet.  I work part-time as a pizzaiolo around LA and I've had the good fortune of using just about every type of mixer there is - planetary, spiral, fork, double diving arm - and all of them work way better than my little, old KitchenAid.  Oh well.  One day I'll dive in and open my open pizza shop, but for now...

Out of curiosity, what brand of spiral mixer do you have?

Offline RamirOk

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 65
  • Age: 27
  • Location: Monterrey, Nuevo Leon. Mexico
    • Personal site
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1186 on: November 06, 2012, 01:26:27 PM »
Thanks Matt. very useful information.

@Totally_baked I've managed to work with a dough with 90% hydration using only my hands a couple of times, some important things that I noticed that helps in gluten development are: a very active levain, long bulk, adding salt 30 or 45 minutes after all the ingredients are incorporated and after the bulk I make a couple regeneris to hold it's shape and putting it the fridge to bake the next day. It's like a modified Tartine approach.

It was a pizza bianca and I think the taste was very similar to the one I taste in Roscioli.
The problem to make it more similar to Forno (at least for me) is to find a EVOO as delicious as theirs.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 01:31:03 PM by RamirOk »

Offline giulio.fabris

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 69
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1187 on: November 06, 2012, 01:59:58 PM »
@RamirOk: if you ever happen to be in Puglia, in southern Italy, you should visit this producer:

www.oliodecillis.net

They make one of the best extra virgin olive oils in Italy.

Offline totally_baked

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 23
  • Location: Los Angeles
  • Time is the answer.
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1188 on: November 06, 2012, 02:53:44 PM »
@ RamirOk - Thanks for the advice.  I've used that method on high hydration doughs where the goal was an "improved mix" but I never thought it would work in place of an "intensive mix" where the goal is extreme elasticity, as Matthew mentions above.  Hm, I'll have to give it a whirl sometime.  

Also, when I was at Forno, I noticed that they were using 3 litre olive green cans of evoo to brush on to the pizza bianca.  If memory serves, which it sometimes does, I believe the brand was Farchioni.  You can see a few cans of it here, at 00:47-55...


It's available in Los Angeles at a few Italian markets and import stores.  You should look for it wherever you are, or buy it online.  
« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 02:59:55 PM by totally_baked »

Offline RamirOk

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 65
  • Age: 27
  • Location: Monterrey, Nuevo Leon. Mexico
    • Personal site
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1189 on: November 06, 2012, 03:39:27 PM »
Thank you for your suggestions giulio and totally_baked.

According to this video that was from 2011 they use EVOO “Canino” their site is: http://www.olivicolacanino.it/

I'm going to check if I can buy it online, Canino or Farchioni. I hope both  ::)

It's hard to get this kind of things in Mexico.

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 16226
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1190 on: November 08, 2012, 12:15:42 PM »
This was 85% HR (not including the culture), 9% Ischia, a tiny sprinkle of ADY, 2.5% salt. 500g KABF. About 8 hours at room temp. It was just a test and only had some parm, evoo, and salt on top. Great flavor, but a little on the chewy side.

How much dough are other people using for a half sheet pan?
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline giulio.fabris

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 69
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1191 on: November 08, 2012, 12:20:59 PM »
I use 500g of flour for 40x30cm pans.


Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24386
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1192 on: November 08, 2012, 12:41:48 PM »
Craig,

This wasn’t my best attempt at a Pizzarium pizza but it was my biggest one in the big steel pan at Reply 733 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg131379.html#msg131379

Another of my attempts was at Reply 550 and the following posts.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg127136.html#msg127136

I even forget where my best attempt at a Pizzarium style pie was made on this thread.  :-D

Soon I have to get back to this thread and make another attempt with the Ischia starter.

Norma

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 16226
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1193 on: November 08, 2012, 12:45:24 PM »
Thanks Norma. Those look great. I have to work on getting my dough more even in the pan.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 16226
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1194 on: November 08, 2012, 12:48:27 PM »
Norma, Do you remember how much flour you used for the dough in those two links?
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24386
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1195 on: November 08, 2012, 01:36:42 PM »
Norma, Do you remember how much flour you used for the dough in those two links?

Craig,

I don’t know exactly how much flour I used in those doughs in the two links.  I might have them on print out sheets, but it might take me awhile to find them. 

I can’t remember what I exactly used in those doughs, but I also was experimenting with different Sicilian doughs at Reply 244 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg122397.html#msg122397 and that formulation is at Reply 248 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg122436.html#msg122436

I also made other attempts on the Felice Nuovo thread, one being at Reply 196  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg121720.html#msg121720  I have to hunt for where I did my best attempt if you want to know.  Matt and other members were helping me on that thread.

I still have to look for where I made my best attempt, but I think that was with the milk kefir polish.

Norma

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24386
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1196 on: November 08, 2012, 03:21:33 PM »
Norma, Do you remember how much flour you used for the dough in those two links?

Craig,

If you are still interested I think I found my best formulation at Reply 274 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg124387.html#msg124387 and the Pizzarium attempt at Reply 295    http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg124520.html#msg124520

That formulation used Durum flour and Caputo Pizzeria flour and Cake Yeast.

Norma

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 16226
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1197 on: November 08, 2012, 03:27:39 PM »
Craig,

If you are still interested I think I found my best formulation at Reply 274 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg124387.html#msg124387 and the Pizzarium attempt at Reply 295    http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg124520.html#msg124520

That formulation used Durum flour and Caputo Pizzeria flour and Cake Yeast.

Norma

Wow, that is a gorgeous crumb. Do you remember the fermentation time and temperature?
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Online norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 24386
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1198 on: November 08, 2012, 03:33:49 PM »
Wow, that is a gorgeous crumb. Do you remember the fermentation time and temperature?

Craig,

Thanks, but all I recall is what I posted in the other thread.  The dough was cold fermented, but don't know why it couldn't be controlled temperature fermented and also why a starter couldn't be used.

Norma

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2632
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1199 on: November 08, 2012, 04:12:58 PM »
Beautiful job Craig - has the square bug bitten you?

KABF will always be on the tough side without a mixer session and a longer bulk. You can use the dough calculator with a TF of .13-.18 to get a rough idea of what Bonci might use for dough ball size compared to your rectangular pan. A lot of the height you get on the bake is in part due to how well you develop the dough. I have seen Matt do .12 and get serious height, and I have done .18 and gotten flat results.

John


 

pizzapan