Author Topic: Pizzarium  (Read 136340 times)

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Offline JBailey

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1180 on: November 05, 2012, 07:59:21 PM »
totally baked:

In Daniel Leader's "Local Breads" he also describes a similar intensive mixing process that he observed with respect to Pizza Bianca in Rome. In the past I've had the opportunity to chat with a baker who makes Pizza al Taglio in Italy (granted not in Rome) and he told me he mixes to full gluten development before a lengthy bulk fermentation. He was using a sourdough leavening.




Offline JBailey

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1181 on: November 05, 2012, 08:07:46 PM »
I suspect that in a commercial setting, the intensive mix is standard practice. Bonci's folding method was probably adapted for homebakers. However the FIRST time I ever saw the folding method advocated to make Pizza Bianca was in a Slice seriouseats article about 3 years ago by someone called "Foolish Poolish"?. I can't find the recipe anymore as it seems they've taken it down. All I can find on that website nowadays is James Kenji-Alt's version.

Offline totally_baked

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1182 on: November 05, 2012, 08:24:20 PM »
Yes, Foolish Poolish is the man.  His attempts at pizza bianca in the style of Sullivan and Campo de Fiori is as good as it gets from a home baker IMO.  I'm not quite sure how he does it.  The proof is in the pics...
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12651.msg121361.html#msg121361

Offline JBailey

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1183 on: November 05, 2012, 08:49:55 PM »
Yeah. @totally baked. I realise I've seen that thread before. I remember the Daniel Leader "Local Breads" reference. The book is pretty good although not really aimed at pizza makers per se.

Offline Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1184 on: November 06, 2012, 06:11:50 AM »
Yeah, I noticed that.  My dough is very, very sticky. 

One thing about Bonci's dough which I wonder about is that, in his class at least, he sometimes appears to use a lower hydration dough (closer to 70%, I believe) than many people are using for Pizza Bianca on this site (closer to 80%).  70% is obviously more manageable and doesn't require as much bench flour compared with 80%+.  Maybe he does it so he doesn't frustrate his first-time students?

Anyway, the hydration that I'm playing with these days is anywhere from 80% to almost 100%, because this is the range I've heard about for other places who do Pizza Bianca like Sullivan Street, Campo de Fiori and Bosco. 

I just wonder out loud how many of these bakeries are doing something like a 20 minute intensive mix using a high speed spiral mixer?  I look at the dough in the Campo de Fiori video 1) in the mixer (around 00:15) and 2) coming out of bulk fermentation (around 00:27) and it doesn't look like my 80%+ hydration dough at all

http://www.fornocampodefiori.com/mediaplayer/popup.html

Mine looks more like liquid levain and is very difficult to handle at 80% while theirs has so much gluten development and appears so much easier to handle and shape.  It doesn't even stick to the metal table in the video?!?  I've heard that Jim Lahey says that his Pizza Bianca dough is the only dough in his bakery that doesn't work with his "no knead" technique.  If only I had a high speed spiral mixer in my apartment.  Maybe I could solve the mystery...




The dough is mixed with a 2 stage process or "double hydration".

Stage 1 (speed 1) is all the flour, yeast or starter & 80% of the total formula water.  After a couple of minutes add the salt. Once almost fully developed you add the formula oil & continue to mix until fully developed or "windowpane stage".   

Stage 2 (2nd speed) Slowly add the remaining 20% water.  It needs to added in a slow stream as close to the breaker bar as possible so that the dough does not break apart & continue to mix until all the water is absorbed.  You know your there when the dough becomes very shiny & extremely elastic.

I have a single speed spiral mixer at home with a hook speed of 178 RPM.  The average 2 phase commercial spiral runs at 100 RPM on speed 1 & 200 rpm on speed 2.  I average it out and can accomplish a fully developed cohesive mass in about a 15 minute mix.

Matt

Offline totally_baked

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1185 on: November 06, 2012, 12:44:06 PM »
Thanks for breaking it down for me, Matt.  I wish I had a spiral mixer at home like you so I could take your advice and put it into action.  My KitchenAid is only good for incorporation on 1st speed.  Double hydration doesn't appear to be an option with my mixer, unless someone has a trick I haven't figured out yet.  I work part-time as a pizzaiolo around LA and I've had the good fortune of using just about every type of mixer there is - planetary, spiral, fork, double diving arm - and all of them work way better than my little, old KitchenAid.  Oh well.  One day I'll dive in and open my open pizza shop, but for now...

Out of curiosity, what brand of spiral mixer do you have?

Offline RamirOk

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1186 on: November 06, 2012, 01:26:27 PM »
Thanks Matt. very useful information.

@Totally_baked I've managed to work with a dough with 90% hydration using only my hands a couple of times, some important things that I noticed that helps in gluten development are: a very active levain, long bulk, adding salt 30 or 45 minutes after all the ingredients are incorporated and after the bulk I make a couple regeneris to hold it's shape and putting it the fridge to bake the next day. It's like a modified Tartine approach.

It was a pizza bianca and I think the taste was very similar to the one I taste in Roscioli.
The problem to make it more similar to Forno (at least for me) is to find a EVOO as delicious as theirs.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 01:31:03 PM by RamirOk »

Offline giulio.fabris

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1187 on: November 06, 2012, 01:59:58 PM »
@RamirOk: if you ever happen to be in Puglia, in southern Italy, you should visit this producer:

www.oliodecillis.net

They make one of the best extra virgin olive oils in Italy.

Offline totally_baked

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1188 on: November 06, 2012, 02:53:44 PM »
@ RamirOk - Thanks for the advice.  I've used that method on high hydration doughs where the goal was an "improved mix" but I never thought it would work in place of an "intensive mix" where the goal is extreme elasticity, as Matthew mentions above.  Hm, I'll have to give it a whirl sometime.  

Also, when I was at Forno, I noticed that they were using 3 litre olive green cans of evoo to brush on to the pizza bianca.  If memory serves, which it sometimes does, I believe the brand was Farchioni.  You can see a few cans of it here, at 00:47-55...
<a href="http://youtu.be/MXxySZiPSIs" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://youtu.be/MXxySZiPSIs</a>


It's available in Los Angeles at a few Italian markets and import stores.  You should look for it wherever you are, or buy it online.  
« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 02:59:55 PM by totally_baked »

Offline RamirOk

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1189 on: November 06, 2012, 03:39:27 PM »
Thank you for your suggestions giulio and totally_baked.

According to this video
<a href="http://youtu.be/idvEY7HAon8" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://youtu.be/idvEY7HAon8</a>
that was from 2011 they use EVOO “Canino” their site is: http://www.olivicolacanino.it/

I'm going to check if I can buy it online, Canino or Farchioni. I hope both  ::)

It's hard to get this kind of things in Mexico.


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1190 on: November 08, 2012, 12:15:42 PM »
This was 85% HR (not including the culture), 9% Ischia, a tiny sprinkle of ADY, 2.5% salt. 500g KABF. About 8 hours at room temp. It was just a test and only had some parm, evoo, and salt on top. Great flavor, but a little on the chewy side.

How much dough are other people using for a half sheet pan?
Pizza is not bread.

Offline giulio.fabris

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1191 on: November 08, 2012, 12:20:59 PM »
I use 500g of flour for 40x30cm pans.

Online norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1192 on: November 08, 2012, 12:41:48 PM »
Craig,

This wasn’t my best attempt at a Pizzarium pizza but it was my biggest one in the big steel pan at Reply 733 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg131379.html#msg131379

Another of my attempts was at Reply 550 and the following posts.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg127136.html#msg127136

I even forget where my best attempt at a Pizzarium style pie was made on this thread.  :-D

Soon I have to get back to this thread and make another attempt with the Ischia starter.

Norma
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1193 on: November 08, 2012, 12:45:24 PM »
Thanks Norma. Those look great. I have to work on getting my dough more even in the pan.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1194 on: November 08, 2012, 12:48:27 PM »
Norma, Do you remember how much flour you used for the dough in those two links?
Pizza is not bread.

Online norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1195 on: November 08, 2012, 01:36:42 PM »
Norma, Do you remember how much flour you used for the dough in those two links?


Craig,

I don’t know exactly how much flour I used in those doughs in the two links.  I might have them on print out sheets, but it might take me awhile to find them. 

I can’t remember what I exactly used in those doughs, but I also was experimenting with different Sicilian doughs at Reply 244 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg122397.html#msg122397 and that formulation is at Reply 248 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg122436.html#msg122436

I also made other attempts on the Felice Nuovo thread, one being at Reply 196  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg121720.html#msg121720  I have to hunt for where I did my best attempt if you want to know.  Matt and other members were helping me on that thread.

I still have to look for where I made my best attempt, but I think that was with the milk kefir polish.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Online norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1196 on: November 08, 2012, 03:21:33 PM »
Norma, Do you remember how much flour you used for the dough in those two links?


Craig,

If you are still interested I think I found my best formulation at Reply 274 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg124387.html#msg124387 and the Pizzarium attempt at Reply 295    http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg124520.html#msg124520

That formulation used Durum flour and Caputo Pizzeria flour and Cake Yeast.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1197 on: November 08, 2012, 03:27:39 PM »
Craig,

If you are still interested I think I found my best formulation at Reply 274 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg124387.html#msg124387 and the Pizzarium attempt at Reply 295    http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg124520.html#msg124520

That formulation used Durum flour and Caputo Pizzeria flour and Cake Yeast.

Norma


Wow, that is a gorgeous crumb. Do you remember the fermentation time and temperature?
Pizza is not bread.

Online norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1198 on: November 08, 2012, 03:33:49 PM »
Wow, that is a gorgeous crumb. Do you remember the fermentation time and temperature?

Craig,

Thanks, but all I recall is what I posted in the other thread.  The dough was cold fermented, but don't know why it couldn't be controlled temperature fermented and also why a starter couldn't be used.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1199 on: November 08, 2012, 04:12:58 PM »
Beautiful job Craig - has the square bug bitten you?

KABF will always be on the tough side without a mixer session and a longer bulk. You can use the dough calculator with a TF of .13-.18 to get a rough idea of what Bonci might use for dough ball size compared to your rectangular pan. A lot of the height you get on the bake is in part due to how well you develop the dough. I have seen Matt do .12 and get serious height, and I have done .18 and gotten flat results.

John


 

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