Author Topic: Pizzarium  (Read 141136 times)

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1200 on: November 08, 2012, 04:26:58 PM »
Beautiful job Craig - has the square bug bitten you?

KABF will always be on the tough side without a mixer session and a longer bulk. You can use the dough calculator with a TF of .13-.18 to get a rough idea of what Bonci might use for dough ball size compared to your rectangular pan. A lot of the height you get on the bake is in part due to how well you develop the dough. I have seen Matt do .12 and get serious height, and I have done .18 and gotten flat results.

John

Thanks John, it's growing on me. What do you mean by "mixer session?" I mixed the dough in the picture above by hand.

Do you think KAAP would be a better choice?

What is the best method to get the dough even in the pan?

Thanks.
Pizza is not bread.


Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1201 on: November 08, 2012, 04:45:21 PM »
Thanks John, it's growing on me. What do you mean by "mixer session?" I mixed the dough in the picture above by hand.

Do you think KAAP would be a better choice?

What is the best method to get the dough even in the pan?

Thanks.

This type of dough can be done by hand, as you are doing, and treated exactly as you would bread. 8 hours with a large percentage of starter. But you can also develop the gluten to the intensive stage, and then cold ferment for a long period of time. Bonci teaches his class using the hand mix method and IDY with an overnight cold ferment. But he obviously uses a mixer for his production pizza - though I am not sure of the fermentation method.

One of the key factors for Bonci is determining what flour you want to use and then adapting the workflow to suit. From my experience, KABF is a HEAVY flour with gluten to match, and needs to be mixed mechanically and fermented a long time to get rid of the chewiness. So for me, the hand-mix approach to Bonci's pizza might not be the best way to go with KABF. But I love KABF for it's taste and ability to stand up to long fermentations. And you see the crumb it can produce. Mix the dough on a medium speed for around 4 minutes and then check it. You want it to start to pull away from the bowl and become a bit silky, even at that high a hydration. You can still use RT for 8 hours, maybe even double that if the temp is not too high - KABF can take it.

I used KABF for my Pizzarium/LB hybrid here, which had a very soft crumb. Further down I mention adding in a mixer session:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17983.0.html

John

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1202 on: November 08, 2012, 04:47:16 PM »
What is the best method to get the dough even in the pan?

At that high a hydration, it is extremely difficult to get the dough even in the pan (I also have a really hard time). But I think that one of the defining characteristics of this pizza is the peaks and valleys that ensue. Many of Bonci's pies exhibit this unevenness.

John

Online Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1203 on: November 08, 2012, 05:38:30 PM »
At that high a hydration, it is extremely difficult to get the dough even in the pan (I also have a really hard time). But I think that one of the defining characteristics of this pizza is the peaks and valleys that ensue. Many of Bonci's pies exhibit this unevenness.

John

If I get a chance, I'll do a video this weekend of the mixing, balling, & panning. 

Matt


Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1204 on: November 08, 2012, 06:18:20 PM »
If I get a chance, I'll do a video this weekend of the mixing, balling, & panning.  

Matt



That would be fantastic. I plan on making my first Pizzarium pies of the season on Monday.

John

Offline bakeshack

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1205 on: November 09, 2012, 05:21:05 PM »
How's this for originality???

http://pizzarium-us.com/#menu-item-50

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1206 on: November 09, 2012, 05:38:35 PM »
How's this for originality???

http://pizzarium-us.com/#menu-item-50
I take it they are not owned by the originators?  ::)
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Online Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1207 on: November 10, 2012, 08:04:52 AM »
A couple of videos I made this morning.  80% Manitoba, 10% Bolted WW, 10% Semola di grano duro (Rimacinato)  80% Hydration, 20% starter.

The video below shows the second mixing phase where I incorporate the remaining 20% formula water.  As I mentioned, the most important thing is that the dough does not break apart during this phase.


This video is the final stage of the finished dough.


Sorry for the amateur camera work, it was done with my left hand on my iPhone.

Matt

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1208 on: November 10, 2012, 09:57:52 AM »
Matt - Thanks so much for posting those videos. You can see how a spiral mixer is so gentle even at a relatively moderate speed. There is none of the smashing and slapping that happens in a kitchen aid. Also, I understand now why the double hydration is important - your mixing gets done more efficiently at the lower hydration, especially with the spiral.

As it applies to this style, I would suggest the spiral is more akin to gentle hand development over a period of a few hours, but gets the job done in a matter of minutes.

If you were choosing a spiral or fork mixer for general use, what would you go with if money and space were not prohibitive?

John

Offline giulio.fabris

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1209 on: November 10, 2012, 10:01:29 AM »
Argh, now I'll be tempted to buy one!   :-D


Online Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1210 on: November 10, 2012, 10:03:48 AM »
Matt - Thanks so much for posting those videos. You can see how a spiral mixer is so gentle even at a relatively moderate speed. There is none of the smashing and slapping that happens in a kitchen aid. Also, I understand now why the double hydration is important - your mixing gets done more efficiently at the lower hydration, especially with the spiral.

As it applies to this style, I would suggest the spiral is more akin to gentle hand development over a period of a few hours, but gets the job done in a matter of minutes.

If you were choosing a spiral or fork mixer for general use, what would you go with if money and space were not prohibitive?

John

No problem at all John. My choice hands down would be a spiral over a fork for general purpose home use. That being said, it would be great to have 2 speed but it's not possible without 3 phase power.

Matt

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1211 on: November 10, 2012, 10:50:15 AM »
No problem at all John. My choice hands down would be a spiral over a fork for general purpose home use. That being said, it would be great to have 2 speed but it's not possible without 3 phase power.

Matt

Thanks Matt - And for a business you would choose the fork?

John

Online Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1212 on: November 10, 2012, 11:33:52 AM »
Thanks Matt - And for a business you would choose the fork?

John

For Neapolitan, my first choice would be diving arm & 2nd choice fork.

For any other style, Spiral.

Matt

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1213 on: November 12, 2012, 02:54:16 PM »
That would be fantastic. I plan on making my first Pizzarium pies of the season on Monday.

John

I'm lucky to live where there is no season for outdoor NP. Notwithstanding, this style is certainly more manageable for midweek pizza.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline bakeshack

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1214 on: November 12, 2012, 03:54:10 PM »
Does anybody know what type of oven they use at Pizzarium, Bosco, etc.?  Just wondering what is the oven of choice for this style of pizza on a commercial setting.

Marlon

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1215 on: November 14, 2012, 03:44:58 PM »
Bosco use Moretti Forni deck ovens (an older Amalfi model I believe).

Offline giulio.fabris

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1216 on: November 17, 2012, 08:53:03 AM »
These pictures are from my last experiment.  :chef:
This time I used 50% whole spelt flour, 25% white spelt flour, 25% manitoba flour. 80% water.
I started on wednesday and I baked it this morning (about 60 hours in the fridge).
It was very good, but not that much different from my usual pies (which stay in the fridge for about 24 hours).

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1217 on: November 17, 2012, 10:09:21 AM »
Giulio - It amazes me when I see 80% hydration doughs like this, using low-gluten flours such as spelt, and how effortless they look in terms of handling. I have such a hard time handling doughs of this hydration. Well done!

John

Offline giulio.fabris

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1218 on: November 17, 2012, 11:26:53 AM »
Thank you John.  :)

Offline whygee

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1219 on: December 14, 2012, 02:16:40 PM »
I've been reading through this thread and I want to make my first attempt at this recipe.

I'm guessing this is the recipe I should go for, if anyone wants to chime in:

50/50 mix of bread flour and spelt
15% levain?
80% hydration
2% salt
4% oil

TF 0.13

S&F every 30 mins for 2h30hrs?

24hrs of cold fermentation and 2hrs to proof. Bake at 475 F for 10 mins or so.

I have my own liquid levain starter (100% hydration). I'm just confused about how to use the starter. When I make bread I usually make a ferment the night before. In this case, am I supposed to put 15% of the flour weight in levain directly into the mix?

Thanks!

PS: I often make bread using the Chad Robertson method from Tartine and it's striking how these two recipes are alike!