Pizzarium

[Jose L. Piedra]

I've been intrigued by this place for quite some time and, given the recent upsurge of interest around here concerning pan-baked pizza as it exists in Italy, I thought I'd start a thread about it. Pizzarium is a super-small, hole-in-the-wall place in Rome specializing in the Roman style of pan-baked pizza (pizza in teglia alla Romana). As I understand it, this amounts to a Focaccia made with Manitoba flour (whatever that is) that is hydrated to the extreme, mixed and made manageable with some rather esoteric techniques, topped in highly imaginative and free-form ways, and then baked in an electric oven. The end result has an extremely open crumb structure and is said to be light and very easy to digest in spite of its thickness (which to the eye appears to be about .14 or so). One of Pizzarium's claims to distinction is use of a local natural starter that is supposed to have been going for a hundred years. Overall, the shop and its owner, Gabriele Bonci, seem to have roughly the same public profile and legendary rep in European pizzadom as the likes of DiFara's and Dom DeMarco enjoy in North America. French reviewers seem particularly ecstastic about his pies, referring to him as "the Emperor", and almost every review I've read in any language claims that his pizzas are by far the finest expressions of the style (a claim that has also been made by Marco- whose cred is about as solid as it gets- here on this forum- see reply #3 in the following thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2627.0.html).

I've never been there, and I hope I'm not getting sucked into some sort of emerging hipster romance/mythology here- but I get the urgent sense that this place is some sort of holy shrine of flatbread, a Vatican City of pizza with Gabriele as its Pope. I don't think it's just hype; the interviews and video footage I've seen of him suggest a a guy with an awesome theoretical and practical mastery of dough (check him out as he beats a wild mass of batter into submission as a serviceable dough ball like he's doing it in his sleep:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzgjXuq1ztI&amp;feature=related" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzgjXuq1ztI&amp;feature=related</a>

).

Anyways, if anybody here who has actually been there could chime in with a review and a detailed description of what his pies are like, I'd really appreciate it. For that matter, if anybody here can elaborate on what pizza alla Romana in general is supposed to be like in terms of the characteristics it ought to have, I'd really appreciate it too.

If enough people are interested, maybe this thread could eventually evolve into a reverse-engineering project like the ones on DiFara's and Patsy's in the NY forum (note that some recipes that have been here for years apparently originated with Gabriele himself, which probably makes them as solid a starting point as can be).

-JLP
   

[Matthew]

Hi Jose,
These are the results of my 1st effort with Marco's recommendation of 15/85 semola/strong bakers flour @77% hydration.  The poolish was fermented at 64 degrees for 24 hours.  (pictured below)

I made it again last weekend,  this time I used 40/60 semola/strong bakers @ 75% hydration & the poolish was placed in the refrigerator for 24hours.   Unfortunately I did not snap any pics.

They both were excellent.

I will be in Rome for a couple of days in March & will definitely pay Gabriele a visit.

Matt

[Jose L. Piedra]

Matt,

Those look very good. In fact, there's a place around here that aspires to be a Roman-style pizza shop and I can tell you that the crumb structure of your pies already looks better than most of theirs do. Marco's formula seems to be gold. I hope you post a review of Pizzarium when you get back from Rome.

-JLP

[Bob1]

Hi Jose,
Good thread topic.  Here is a pic and spec for Manitoba.  It appears that because they do not allow Bromate this flour has ascorbic acid added.  Here is a link for Italian bread flours and their W strength
http://www.pane.appuntidicucina.it/ricetta/farinemolinospadoni,  I hope I inserted the link correctly.  It may come in handy for reverse engineering.

Manitoba   
Of America - 0
W 310 / 340
P / L 0.60 / 0.75
 
Gluten% 12.5 / 13.5
Ash% 0.52 / 0.58


 

[Jose L. Piedra]

Hi Bob1,

Thanks for that info. I get the impression that the Manitoba flour, which is made entirely of hard wheat, is pretty much the same as most of the bread flour made on this continent (which is also made of hard wheat). The protein rating suggests as much.

To complicate things further, in the rigenero thread Nina suggests that most of the pizza Romana is made with a specialized flour- I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that it's a mix of Manitoba and a softer flour...Just guessing, but guessing is the first step towards learning...

-JLP

[widespreadpizza]

Jose,  good call on the thread,  I as well am very happy to see what the change of seasons in the US has done for the interest level in the pan baked pizza.  When I set out on my path a little while back,  this is where I started,  but is not the Marco recipe you speak of I don't think.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1073.0.html reply #7

it's similar but not the same.  This speaks of fine semoilina flour.   It does work and does come out amazingly well,  although I do prefer doing the poolish at room temp so far.  -marc

[Jose L. Piedra]

When I set out on my path a little while back,  this is where I started,  but is not the Marco recipe you speak of I don't think.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1073.0.html reply

Actually, it's one of the three he gave. That one was for what he defined as a "cross-mix of Sicilian and Roman pizza" (100% Semolina). In http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1690.0.html, reply 3 he gave an alternate version defined as "Roman revisited with a Sicilian accent" (15% Semolina); finally, in http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2627.0.html, reply 3 he gave yet another alternate version for a straight Roman pizza (100% "Manitoba").

Jeff V and Matt subsequently tweaked some of these recipes in their own endeavours as well.

I do prefer doing the poolish at room temp so far.

How long did you leave it out for ?

[Bob1]

Jose,
When I read threads in Italian a lot of recipes state a mix between a strong Manitoba and a softer durum, which I believe is a byproduct of making Semolina, and is much finer.  I always have some in the house. some recipes also include potato to help it to remain soft the next day.  I think for our purposes we should forget about the potato part for now.  Widespread you are correct about Marcos recipe and there is work being done with that on "Pizza in Teglia"  Matt has gotten great results.  Matt developed an Excel spread sheet and we have refined it a bit.  The info below shows what is on the sheet.  If you put in the pan size and Thickness factor it will calculate the rest.  If any one wants a copy PM me, and I will email it to you.  
One other thought on the Manitoba.  Even though it is similar to bread flour it also has ascorbic acid added to it. How much strength does the ascorbic acid add.  Would a KASL at 14.5% be a good substitute?



Pizza in Teglia Spreadsheet: (grams)                  
                  
Pan Size      Sq In   G Per Ball     Thick Fctr   Balls Qu   Total Weight
16.00   16.00   256.00   1088.26       0.15                  2.00      2176.51
                  
                  
                  
   Bakers %   Total G   Semola   Bread Flour      
         40.00%   60.00%      
                  
Flour    100.00%   1188.05   475.22   712.83      
Water    75.00%   891.04            
IDY   0.70%   8.32            
Salt   2.50%   29.70            
EVOO   5.00%   59.40            
                  
Total   183.20%   2176.51            
                  
                  
Poolish:      Semola   Bread Flour         
Flour   891.04   356.42   534.62         
Water   891.04               
IDY   2.25               
Total   1784.32               
                  
Next Day:      Semola   Bread Flour         
Flour   297.01   118.81   178.21         
Water   0.00               
IDY   6.07               
Salt   29.70               
EVOO   59.40               
Total   392.19


Thanks,

Bob1               
 

[Jose L. Piedra]

Jose,
When I read threads in Italian a lot of recipes state a mix between a strong Manitoba and a softer durum, which I believe is a byproduct of making Semolina, and is much finer.  I always have some in the house.

If Manitoba flour is what I think it is I can readily understand why they dumb it down a bit- but I wonder why they specifically do so with Durum flour. In my own case, ever since I got started with pizza I've been dumbing down the super-strong Canadian bread flour I have to use with Canadian AP flour for all my pizzas, and I get the feeling out of this that I'm doing so for the same reason. Does the Durum flour do something AP can't ?

some recipes also include potato to help it to remain soft the next day.  I think for our purposes we should forget about the potato part for now.

 

Agreed. Just the other weekend I was reading a bunch of reviews of a high-end, neo-Sicilian place in NYC that uses potato in their doughs, and almost every reviewer said that the pies, while excellent, were gutbusters they could barely finish. Potato starch will do that. Another common theme in the reviews was that the pies tended to turn intolerably soft and even soggy in a matter of minutes. I'm thinking that if potato will keep the pie soft the next day, it'll make it mushy 15 minutes after being taken out of the oven. I'm just speculating, but this isn't something I personally want to learn about the hard way.

-JLP

[Bob1]

Jose,
I am not quite sure what you mean by dumbing down the flours.  I think all the flours act differently when combined with others.  A bakery near me makes what they call semolina Italian bread and it is very different than others, and very good.  In the Rigenero thread I brought up some questions about using certain flours for the preferment and others for the final dough.  It seems to me that could play a crucial role.  I found this link

Code: [Select]

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Durum+doubles+for+bread+and+pasta.-a054240397 and I also added the write up at the bottom.    Since I never tried the Pizzarium's product I can only go by the pictures.  I think as I pursue this I will start with Marcos recipe that Matt is using with "Pizza in Teglia" and experiment with this link.  What do you guys think for this as a starting point?

Thanks,

Bob1


http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Durum+doubles+for+bread+and+pasta.-a054240397
Until now, bread flour composed of more than 25% durum did not produce the light and airy loaves most consumers desire. But with a modified baking procedure, 1 lb loaves of bread containing 60% durum flour baked up with nearly the same volume as bread from 100% hard red spring wheat (HRSW) flour. The scientists have also baked bread with 60% soft wheat pastry flour and 40% HRSW flour with excellent results.

HRSW flour is noted for its high gluten strength. Gluten accounts for large bread loaf volume because it imparts flexibility and strength to the dough as fermentation makes the dough rise and retain gas. To make durum bread, the scientists modified the sponge-dough method by incorporating the weaker gluten strength durum flour at a 60% level plus 10% HRSW flour in the

sponge.

Generally the sponge requires stronger gluten flour because of extended mixing and longer fermentation. The dough stagedough stage

a stage in the maturation of a cereal crop when the seeds are soft and immature but fully formed. This is the optimum time to convert the crop into hay or ensilage.
..... Click the link for more information. contained the remaining 30% HRSW flour. Following baking, bread made with 60% durum flour was similar in loaf volume to bread made with 100% HRSW flour.

During the sponge development stage, commercial bakers mix 70% of the flour with water and yeast and let the mixture ferment up to 3 hr. During the dough stage of development, the sponge is remixed with water, sugar, nonfat dry milkNoun 1. nonfat dry milk - dehydrated skimmed milk
dried milk, dry milk, milk powder, powdered milk - dehydrated milk
..... Click the link for more information., shortening, salt and the remaining flour. Following additional fermentation and proof times, the dough is then baked 

[Jose L. Piedra]

Jose,
I am not quite sure what you mean by dumbing down the flours. 

Sorry for creating confusion. By "dumbing down the flour" I meant, in my own case, that I have to cut the 100% hard wheat bread flour I use with a softer flour to get good results with it. By itself, the bread flour yields a dough that chars excessively to the point of burning outright at just 550, and otherwise comes out tough, chewy, and even hard. I've read a few things online that imply that Manitoba flour, when used by itself, runs into similar problems. The Roman pizza is supposed to be so soft you can cut it with scissors. I'm thinking that maybe the Italians incorporate some Durum flour into their formulas for the same reason I incorporate AP into mine (I can cut my Sicilians with scissors and in fact do so regularly).

I hope you do a write-up of your results with Marco's recipe, which seems excellent and has yielded proven results on this forum. If all goes well I'm going to be trying one of them myself on Sunday (details to follow).

-JLP

[Matthew]

Sorry for creating confusion. By "dumbing down the flour" I meant, in my own case, that I have to cut the 100% hard wheat bread flour I use with a softer flour to get good results with it. By itself, the bread flour yields a dough that chars excessively to the point of burning outright at just 550, and otherwise comes out tough, chewy, and even hard. I've read a few things online that imply that Manitoba flour, when used by itself, runs into similar problems. The Roman pizza is supposed to be so soft you can cut it with scissors. I'm thinking that maybe the Italians incorporate some Durum flour into their formulas for the same reason I incorporate AP into mine (I can cut my Sicilians with scissors and in fact do so regularly).

I hope you do a write-up of your results with Marco's recipe, which seems excellent and has yielded proven results on this forum. If all goes well I'm going to be trying one of them myself on Sunday (details to follow).

-JLP

Jose,
I used scissors to cut into mine.  Both doughs 15/85 (semola/bf) & 40/60 were very similar in characteristic.

Matt

[Jose L. Piedra]

If all goes well, I'll be trying the following this weekend (adapted from Marco's post in http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2627.0.html):

Flour: 100%
Water: 75%
IDY: 0.7%
Salt: 2.5%
Oil: 5%

For my pan (13" length, 9.25" height), and with a projected TF of .13, this amounts to (figures do not exactly correspond to percentages due to rounding for convenience):

Flour: 242 gr.
Water: 6.375 oz. (about 74.5%)
IDY: .56 tea.
Salt: 1 tea. (2.3%)
Oil: 2.75 tea. (about 5.1%)

This total will be split up as follows:

For the poolish:

Flour: 180 gr.
Water: 6.375 oz (100%)
IDY: 0.16 tea.

For the rest:

Flour: 62 gr.
IDY: 0.4 tea.
All of the salt and oil.

The original recipe stipulated 100% Manitoba flour, but all I have is Robin Hood bread flour and some generic Canadian AP flour. I'm thinking of using a mix of about 60% BF and 40% AP, but it's an open question at this point. The poolish, mix, and rise times, as well as the poolish temperature are all open questions at this point as well. Marco recommends 10-11 hours in the fridge for the poolish, but to do that and have the pie in the oven by the time I plan to bake it (around 3:30ish Sunday afternoon) I'd have to make it around midnight before. Not convenient at all. I think I'll go for 24 hours in the fridge or so. Additionally, Marco didn't provide any baseline mix times in his post. Later on, I'm going to browse through the other threads and check out what others have done; in the meanwhile, any and all pointers, opinions, and experiences are welcomed and urgently needed. Also, if anybody should spot any epic miscalculations in the figures above, it would help a lot if you'd let me know (I came up with those while multi-tasking with about 7 other windows open).

-JLP

[Bob1]

Jose,
I'll let Matt or some of the other people who have worked with this formula comment on fermentation time.  I would only like to add that you may want to try Gabriele's method of flattening the dough and then rolling it up in log form to rise before panning it.

Thanks,

Bob

[Matthew]

Jose,
Almost finished up a batch of dough using a starter, a couple more regeneri cycles & then fermentation @ 68 degrees for about 46 hours.  My formula was as follows:


Flour (100%):    753.33 g  |  26.57 oz | 1.66 lbs             
Water (80%):    602.66 g  |  21.26 oz | 1.33 lbs             
Salt (3%):    22.6 g | 0.8 oz | 0.05 lbs | 6.65 tsp | 2.22 tbsp             
Strutto (6.67%):    50.25 g | 1.77 oz | 0.11 lbs | 11.17 tsp | 3.72 tbsp             
Total (189.67%):   1428.84 g | 50.4 oz | 3.15 lbs | TF = 0.16             

Preferment:                
Flour:    46.29 g | 1.63 oz | 0.1 lbs             
Water:    39.44 g | 1.39 oz | 0.09 lbs             
Total:    85.73 g | 3.02 oz | 0.19 lbs             

Final Dough:               
               
Flour:                  707.04 g | 24.94 oz | 1.56 lbs             
Water:                  563.23 g | 19.87 oz | 1.24 lbs             
Salt:                  22.6 g | 0.8 oz | 0.05 lbs | 6.65 tsp | 2.22 tbsp             
Preferment:    85.73 g | 3.02 oz | 0.19 lbs             
Strutto:                 50.25 g | 1.77 oz | 0.11 lbs | 11.17 tsp | 3.72 tbsp             
Total:                 1428.84 g | 50.4 oz | 3.15 lbs  | TF = 0.16             

By the way, are you in Canada?

Matt

[Matthew]

If all goes well, I'll be trying the following this weekend (adapted from Marco's post in http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2627.0.html):

Flour: 100%
Water: 75%
IDY: 0.7%
Salt: 2.5%
Oil: 5%

For my pan (13" length, 9.25" height), and with a projected TF of .13, this amounts to (figures do not exactly correspond to percentages due to rounding for convenience):

Flour: 242 gr.
Water: 6.375 oz. (about 74.5%)
IDY: .56 tea.
Salt: 1 tea. (2.3%)
Oil: 2.75 tea. (about 5.1%)

This total will be split up as follows:

For the poolish:

Flour: 180 gr.
Water: 6.375 oz (100%)
IDY: 0.16 tea.

For the rest:

Flour: 62 gr.
IDY: 0.4 tea.
All of the salt and oil.

The original recipe stipulated 100% Manitoba flour, but all I have is Robin Hood bread flour and some generic Canadian AP flour. I'm thinking of using a mix of about 60% BF and 40% AP, but it's an open question at this point. The poolish, mix, and rise times, as well as the poolish temperature are all open questions at this point as well. Marco recommends 10-11 hours in the fridge for the poolish, but to do that and have the pie in the oven by the time I plan to bake it (around 3:30ish Sunday afternoon) I'd have to make it around midnight before. Not convenient at all. I think I'll go for 24 hours in the fridge or so. Additionally, Marco didn't provide any baseline mix times in his post. Later on, I'm going to browse through the other threads and check out what others have done; in the meanwhile, any and all pointers, opinions, and experiences are welcomed and urgently needed. Also, if anybody should spot any epic miscalculations in the figures above, it would help a lot if you'd let me know (I came up with those while multi-tasking with about 7 other windows open).

-JLP

Jose,
24 hours for the poolish is absolutely fine.   You'll have to play around with the mix time as it will vary depending on your mixer.  Marco states that you need a spiral mixer to do it properly.  I used my DLX with the roller & scraper which works out just fine; 5 minutes mid speed & 2 minutes low.  Then about 4 rigeneri cycles with 15-20 minute rests.

Matt

[Jose L. Piedra]

Bob1,

Thanks for the heads-up on the cylinder technique. I saw Gabriele do it in the video but didn't draw the connection.

Matt,

Yes, I'm in Canada (Montreal island, way out in the 'burbs). In the rigenero thread, Nina also stated she had it on good word that a spiral mixer is necessary to do this style right. Oh well- I figure that, even if I don't meet the authentic target, I'll end up with a result that won't be any worse than the fairly average and plain-Jane Sicilian of mine that I would have ended up baking anyways this weekend if not for this experiment.

-JLP

[widespreadpizza]

Some pictures of would have been sicilian style form last night/yesterdays attempt.  I ended up going out to dinner so I just made these into foccacia.  This is the recipie marco provied ,  the 100% fine semolina flour,  just modiifed so that the poolish is done room temp in roughly 8 hours insted of overnight.  Also this is hand mixed in one bowl,  and could not be much easier.  Man is it good.  You might think the crust would be a littles tough chewy with the 100% but it is far from it, tender and light  with an addicting tooth.  -marc

[scottfsmith]

Those look nice marc!  I have been making sicilian/roman pizza lately as well (primarily whole wheat but sometimes white).  In looking for recipes online I found the following quite detailed one on an Italian bboard: http://www.gennarino.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=13622&sid=a0c54744cec40db32b28139c297b9e42 .   This recipe has more preparation details than Marcos recipe does.  I am going to try it out but have not yet.  I attempted a translation of it as follows.  If anyone knows Italian perhaps you can give some corrections.  The primary flour is W300/330 which I think is similar to the usual US?  The hydration is around 85%.

Pizza in teglia alla romana

The preparation is laborious but worth it: this is a very special pizza, it melts in your mouth and is digested quickly; it is one of the best mixtures ever tasted.

Equipment
An iron spatula, necessary for those who knead by hand, optional for those who use a mixer.
Two rectangular iron trays (the dough is calibrated to give two trays 40cm).

Ingredients

Phase I
Dry yeast 1g
Water 50g
"Manitoba" flour [for this small amount the type should not matter much] 50g
1 teaspoon sugar

Phase II
W300/330 flour  [similar to typical US flour?] 900 gr 100%
Starter 100g 11%
Water 600g 67%

Phase III
Water 150g 17%
Salt 19g 2%
Seed oil [e.g. canola?] 35g ~ 4%


Comments on the ingredients
Do not frown on reading the presence of seed oil -- too much olive oil weighs the dough and its taste is too noticeable.

The dry yeast in this case behaves better than fresh, but it should be activated first (see the procedure below). The starter is optional but strongly recommended; if you only use dry yeast double the dose (2 grams).

Procedure (for the pizza to be ready Saturday night, begin on Thursday night at 21:00)

In a glass pour 50 grams of warm water at 80F and dissolve the dry yeast. Add 50 grams of flour and a teaspoon of sugar, stir and let rise a quarter of an hour.

Empty the cup into a bowl, add the water of the second phase by controlling the temperature (the dough at this point must measure 66F so we need to use the water at the right temperature to obtain this result; for example, if the ambient temperature is 80F degrees, use cold water at 52F), the starter (if any) and the flour. Stir the mixture briefly to smoothen, and let rest, covered, for 40 minutes.

Build the dough by adding the phase III water little by little (with the mixer, pour in water;  by hand the dough is kneaded on the table and gradually add all water). Finally add the salt, then oil. Shape into a ball, cover and let sit 15 minutes. The dough must be 72F at the end.

Now our aim is to develop strong gluten links. Leaving aside the dough for a quarter of an hour, if kneaded by hand gently pull the dough and fold over into a ball, lifting it gently and not ripping [this is a guess; its some kind of stretch/fold thing]; with the mixer we simply do one slow lap. Cover and wait another quarter of an hour. Do this five times.

Finally we put the dough in a bowl or container, top with a plate or a lid and refrigerate for 36 hours, which should bring us to about 10:00AM Saturday.

The dough is now a mass white sticky bubbly. Flour the table with plenty of flour and spill some flour over the dough. Weigh the dough and divide into two, forming two balls of the same weight. Do not mix up again for any reason;  don't crush, don't deflate, don't rip!

If the dough is well leavened [??], put it back in the fridge always covered and plan to take it out in the late afternoon, otherwise leave out on the table, covered.

Brush the pans with a little oil; then sprinkle the pans with flour, eliminating any excess.

An hour before baking, use a floured board (and hands) and stretch the dough uniformly to the size of the pan. To do so, keep a firm hand and, putting your other hand below the knuckles, pull not using the palm, without tearing and without deflating the dough.  It is a very delicate operation, the most difficult of all in this recipe.

Place the dough on each pan, stretching to take the size of the pan, again without deflating. Cover the pans with a damp cloth or film.

Switch the oven to maximum temperature (550F?) with a pot full of water on the bottom.

Season the pizza just before baking, with your favorite ingredients; finally add a sprinkling of salt and a drizzle of olive oil.  Place the rack close to the flame itself in the oven [?? - not sure at all about this sentence]. If using mozzarella, it should be added 2/3 of the way through, otherwise it will burn before the pizza is cooked.

The cooking time varies but is around 15 minutes with normal ovens.

Delicious!

[Jose L. Piedra]

Made the poolish as per my calculations above. I used cold (but not ice-cold) water and mixed it by hand with a spatula and then, a butterknife. It somehow struck me as too dough-like and not hydrated enough, so I added a bit more water. So much for scientific rigour and precision...Phase 2 should start by noon tomorrow.

@Marc: Those are some fine-looking focaccias. Do you think that crumb would have stood up to the weight of toppings if you had went ahead and made pizzas out of them (e.g. if they had been parbaked and then topped) ?

@scottfsmith: Thanks for that recipe, lots to digest in there.

-JLP