Author Topic: Pizzarium  (Read 164855 times)

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Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2010, 07:05:12 PM »
I just clicked on the link to the Gennarino site, and those pizzas do look pretty weird and oddly deformed...as though the cells collapsed either under the weight of the toppings and/or were squeezed during the process of being cut and didn't recover. What causes that, and- more importantly- how can it be avoided ?

JLP
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Online norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2010, 07:29:18 PM »
Does anyone know where bakerboy has his bakery?  I think it is near me.  Is it Conshohocken Italian Bakery?   ???  If it is, I see Conshohocken Italian Bakey is open tomorrow from 7am to 1pm.  They specialize in the Tomato Pie and other kinds of foccacia pies.  If this is the bakery, I will try to go there tomorrow morning and purchase a Tomato Pie and see if I can find out anything about how they make their pies.

Norma
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Offline ninapizza23

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2010, 08:13:33 PM »
Widespreadpizza,
If you use 100% semolina to make bread in "un impasto diretto" like they say in Italy it will not rise, but if you make un impasto indiretto, it will work like the one that Matt did. I understand your disagreement  because I did not explain myself properly. Do you agree with me now?

Offline Bob1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2010, 10:24:21 PM »
So far I have tried Matt's version of Marco's recipe with great results,  I had used 40% Semolina and 60% KABF.  I mixed all the flour together and used 75% of the flour for the poolish.  This last batch I tried something different based on an earlier post.  I am using an Excel sheet that calculates it out and I wrote comments on the side for a record.  I will copy it below and it should explain my process.  I found that instead of having the larger bubbles it was more uniform, like bread.  It rose about 15% more than the previous recipe.  The outer crust was ultrathin and crisp.  Kind of like a high temp Caputo.  In fact, in the third picture you can see that my thumb hit the front left corner and pushed it in.  The smell of the ferment, the smell of the cook, and the final taste was very strong and tasted like fresh pasta.  The Durum really showed through.  I thought it was too strong for my taste.  It was very very light.  I think I prefer more body.
In a nutshell I used 60% durum and 40% KABF.  I used all the Durum with 15% of the total KABF in the poolish to add structure.  I also increased the hydration to 80% and reserved a little bit for the final phase to dissolve the yeast and help mix.  It was topped with 28oz of 6 in 1 with spice and Pecorino.  Hopefully the copied sheet will come out all right below.  Sometimes the formatting gets squirrelly.  Please excuse the quality of the crumb shot.  I need a new camera.
                   
Pizza in Teglia Spreadsheet: (grams)               Two   
                  
Pan       Size   Sq In   G Per Ball  Thick Fctr   Balls Qu      Total Weight
16    x   19   304   1292     0.150           1         1292
               Used in 16 x16         1088
               Reserved for cold ferment & Another Pie   204
                  
   Bakers %   Total G   Durum   KABF      
         60.00%   40.00%      
                  
Flour    100.00%   686.67   412.00   274.67      
Water    80.00%   515.00            
IDY   0.70%   4.81            
Salt   2.50%   17.17            
EVOO   5.00%   34.33            
                  
Total   188.20%   1257.97            
                  
Poolish:                  
Flour   66.00%    Durum    KABF       Mixed at 9PM 8/09       
Water   86.00%    100.00%    15.00%       Finished dough 73 deg      
Flour   453.20    412.00    41.20       Stored at 62 degrees      
Water   442.90                
IDY   1.30               
Total   897.40               
                  
Next Day:      Durum   KABF                Mixed at 11AM 9/09      
Flour   233.47                 0.00    233.47                Finished dough Temp 73      
Water   72.10               
IDY   3.51                                                       Rolled out dough in log for two hour rise            
Salt   17.17                                                       Panned for 1 hour parbaked for five minutes            
EVOO   34.33                                          Sauced and baked for 17min at 400 Fh            
Total   360.57   


Thanks,

Bob1            
 

Offline Bob1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2010, 10:34:59 PM »
Yes,  I do not have the formatting issues figured out so I converted the sheet to a JPG, if any one wants to check it out.

Thanks,

Bob1

Online norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2010, 10:41:42 PM »
Bob1,

How did you find the handling of this dough with a higher hydration? Also did you do the rest periods?
Overall, how was the taste and lightness?

Thanks,
Norma
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Offline Bob1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2010, 11:11:05 PM »
Norma, 
The dough was very easy to handle.  I did not start and stop it.  I did not use an autolyse either.  I just made sure that I did a high speed DLX mix on the poolish until I got 73 degrees.  I do not use the dough hook.  I use the fluted drum with the scraper.  Now that I am also experimenting more with temp I find that this mixer is great for controlling dough temps.  I use the infrared gun to shoot the dough and it works great.  It seems that once it hits temp it just firms right up.  I know that I hear about temps of 80 degrees dough hook but everything I read on the Italian sites point toward 23 C or 73 degrees Fh for finished dough on pizza.  The taste was very intense but like semolina or fresh pasta.  It was very very light.  I do not want to sound weird but the texture reminded me of eating chocolate pudding with air bubbles in it.  Maybe too light.  I think this has given me some ideas on possibly using this method with Caputo and the high oil to try and create an imitation WFO clone for low temps some day.  Now that I am developing the gluten better I can start to understand the videos that I see.  I could never understand how they pull those soft doughs out of the mixer and handle them so easy.  On another note, I think if anyone wanted to use a long cold ferment on the poolish for more flavor the 15% KABF should be replaced with KASL for the longer time. 

Thanks,

Bob1

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2010, 11:28:24 PM »

Online norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2010, 11:37:58 PM »
Peter,

I guess the visit to bakerboy's bakery will have to wait until another day.  I see they are closed until January 13, 2010.

added picture of bakerboy's foccacia.

Thanks,
Norma

« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 12:37:59 AM by norma427 »
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Offline Bob1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2010, 12:15:40 PM »
For what it's worth I found a Foccacia video from Genoa.  I know it is a different region, but I found it interesting to see more detail with the process of the finished dough.  He lets it rest, rolls it once, turns 90 degrees and rolls it again.  Then he divides and lets it rise in the pan.  Check it out.




Thanks,


Bob1

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2010, 07:43:08 PM »
There has recently been an abundance of examples of people doing pan-baked pizza right on this forum. Here I'm going to present an example of doing it wrong. All aboard the failboat...

So I made the poolish yesterday according to my prior plan. It was the first time I ever made a preferment of any type, and I had no idea of what one is supposed to look like, but I got the feeling that it seemed awfully dense and dough-like for a poolish. I even mentioned as much in my post about making the poolish above.

That feeling should have been a massive red flag.

I took it out of the fridge around 11:00 AM today after 23 hours, let it warm up, mixed in the rest of the yeast, and then the salt and oil. So far, so good, I thought- notwithstanding a nagging doubt that would soon be confirmed once I spooned in the remaining flour and watched everything quickly coalesce into a nice shiny ball that cleaned the bowl entirely.

Obviously, there had been a measurement error the day before, and I wound up with a dough of about 64% hydration instead of the 75% I was aiming for. There was supposed to have been quite a high percentage of yeast in this dough (0.7%), but it rose on the counter at about the same rate as my usual doughs, which have much less yeast in them.

In short, I absent-mindedly put in too much flour and wound up with roughly the same humdrum dough I make every week and was hoping to upgrade. Sort of like the old cartoon gag where the crook unintentionally digs his way back into the very jail he was trying to tunnel out of. How ironic...

It goes without saying that the finished pie, while competent and topped in a savoury fashion, had exactly the same whitebread crumb I was trying to get away from. The 23 hour, botched poolish contributed nothing to improving the usual, boring flavour of this dough.

It looks like my breakout into the world of artisanal pan-baked pizza will have to wait at least another week. Study epic fail, learn from epic fail...

-JLP



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Online norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2010, 07:52:59 PM »
JPL,

Don't get discouraged, your pie looks very tasty.  :)  I didn't get the results I wanted either.  Back to the drawing board for us..lol 

If we don't get it right the first time, try, try, try again.  We will eventually get it right, with all the help we are receiving.  :)

Thanks for sharing your experience and pictures.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Bob1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2010, 07:57:19 PM »
Jose, 

There is always tomorrow. 

How did the crumb look with the lower hydration?

Thanks,

Bob1

Offline Bob1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2010, 08:01:04 PM »
How did the crumb look with the lower hydration?


Jose,
Let me elaborate on that.  When you say bread like. were the bubbles small with no elasticity?  Was there little flavor?

Thanks,

Bob1

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2010, 08:56:13 PM »
Norma:

I'd get demoralized if I didn't have to go back to the drawing board from time to time. Imagine how boring pizzamaking would become if you could always get it right on your first try...

Bob1:

Yes, the bubbles were very small, almost like white bread, and the taste was about the same.

-JLP

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Offline Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2010, 06:36:24 AM »
For what it's worth I found a Foccacia video from Genoa.  I know it is a different region, but I found it interesting to see more detail with the process of the finished dough.  He lets it rest, rolls it once, turns 90 degrees and rolls it again.  Then he divides and lets it rise in the pan.  Check it out.




Thanks,


Bob1

Thanks for posting, great video.  What's interesting is the dough is only hydrated @ about 50% & he uses corn syrup as a substitute for malt extract.  He does mention in the beginning that the end result is more about the process & handling than the ingredients.

Matt

Offline Bob1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2010, 02:29:02 PM »
Matt,
Glad you found the video interesting.  I guess you saw my results were less than expacted with the formula that I tried.  I was trying to get a good rise out of Durum by using the 15% KABF in the preferment.  It worked and I got more rise than with the 60/40, but the crumb was more bread like and it tasted to much like semolina for my taste.  However, on a good note I reserved a 204 gram ball for a one day cold ferment on the total mix.  It turned out a nice 10" pie cooked at 650 deg on a fibrement.  It was light and not bread like.  The crust had a good over all flavor of both flours and the browned crust was very tasty.  I will post a few pics.  I think I will try the same recipe again but add the second ferment and see what happens.  I also think I will push the hydration up to 85%.  I do not know what Gabriele actually uses but it looks very wet.

Thanks,

Bob 


Offline Bob1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2010, 02:33:37 PM »
Oops, I hit the post button accidently.  Here are the pics

Thanks,

Bob1

Offline Bob1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2010, 07:21:54 PM »
Jose,
Has any one actually been in Rome to try Pizza in Teglia?  It seems like we need to learn more about the process.  Marco gave a great recipe that gave a good result, but there was not a lot of detail on handling the dough.  How does it differ in texture from Focaccia?  How does it differ from focaccia, in how you handle the dough?  It seemed like Gabriele rolled the dough as some of the people who make Focaccia.  If his product is unique maybe he does a cross between the two.  Any ideas on that?

Thanks,

Bob1

Offline Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #44 on: January 11, 2010, 07:43:24 PM »
Jose,
Has any one actually been in Rome to try Pizza in Teglia?  It seems like we need to learn more about the process.  Marco gave a great recipe that gave a good result, but there was not a lot of detail on handling the dough.  How does it differ in texture from Focaccia?  How does it differ from focaccia, in how you handle the dough?  It seemed like Gabriele rolled the dough as some of the people who make Focaccia.  If his product is unique maybe he does a cross between the two.  Any ideas on that?

Thanks,

Bob1

Bob,
My personal observation is that the more you handle the dough the more bread-like the texture.  The last dough that I made in the sfincione thread was not handled at all after it was kneaded except very briefly 40 hours later to lightly stretch onto the pan.  As you can see from the photos it was extremely light & airy, not bread like at all.  I then did a 2nd proof for about 2 hours & the end result was a dough that was so bubbly that I could hardly spread the sauce on it.  My guess is that if there was no topping that I would of got some serious oven spring. 

I am intrigued by the video that you posted & am going to give it a shot this weekend using a starter, maybe my Ischia this time.  I think I am going to use 15% semola & 85% Caputo.  I'm also going to substitute the EVOO with strutto (because I like the texture that it adds) & am going to use malt extract instead of corn syrup. 

Matt

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #45 on: January 11, 2010, 09:30:54 PM »

It seems like we need to learn more about the process.  Marco gave a great recipe that gave a good result, but there was not a lot of detail on handling the dough.  How does it differ in texture from Focaccia?  How does it differ from focaccia, in how you handle the dough?  It seemed like Gabriele rolled the dough as some of the people who make Focaccia.  If his product is unique maybe he does a cross between the two.  Any ideas on that?

Thanks,

Bob1

I think the only thing anybody around here knows about the process for sure at this point is that: a) Gabriele uses a natural starter, b) the hydration level of his doughs is 90% (which is pretty much normal for the style), c) in pro settings they use high-speed spiral mixers, and d) they use rigenero cycles.

Unfortunately whoever it was who produced the following video, http://video.aol.co.uk/video-detail/-pizza-rium/3866298856 decided to use fast-motion in the scene documenting what the guy is doing, but by double-clicking my mouse over the pause control rapidly I think I could make him out doing something like a stretch-and-fold- but it's hard to tell from just a smattering of frames. The other video shows Gabriele rolling dough into a cylinder, and it also shows him dumping a mass onto a tabletop and then stretching the part that wasn't stuck to the table back and forth as though playing an accordion. Can't speak italian, don't know how these two procedures are related (or even just what it is he's actually making, seeing as how he does lots of other types of bread).

I think a natural starter is a must for getting the crumb structure with the big bubbles definitive of the Romana style- or at least makes it a lot easier. Matt used a starter and totally nailed it in his latest sfincione project. Moreover, almost every picture I've seen of pizza of any style that had this sort of crumb was posted by somebody who said they used a starter to make it.

-JLP
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Offline Bob1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #46 on: January 11, 2010, 10:04:31 PM »
Jose,
Thanks for the recap.  I guess the other major question would be cooking temps.  I cooked mine at 400 deg F and I think that might have been to low.  From what I am seeing now, in several places, points more to a temperature ranging from 470 to 550 F.  I was really happy with the pie that I made with the left over dough at 650.  It was light, not bread like, and had nice structure.  I think it was the higher temp and the fact that the KABF had a chance to develop.  I think I will try it again with an adjustment on the ferment ratio, up the hydration, and cook it at 500 deg F.  I also think I let the ferment raise a little to much before I did phase 2 on the first batch.  Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Bob1

Offline Bob1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #47 on: January 11, 2010, 10:31:43 PM »
Quote
Bob,
My personal observation is that the more you handle the dough the more breadline the texture.  The last dough that I made in the sfincione thread was not handled at all after it was kneaded except very briefly 40 hours later to lightly stretch onto the pan.  As you can see from the photos it was extremely light & airy, not bread like at all.  I then did a 2nd proof for about 2 hours & the end result was a dough that was so bubbly that I could hardly spread the sauce on it.  My guess is that if

Matt,
I did do a single cylinder roll with the dough, but that was it.  I am new at this.  Do you think that made it bread like?  I thought maybe because I did a room temp ferment and let it go a little to long.  When I say bread like, I meant the small bubble.  It was a very very light crumb.  I also think that the low temp does not give the steam expansion and rippage that you get from a hotter cook.  What temp are you cooking at?

I'll be looking forward to see how your pie comes out this weekend.

Thanks,

Bob1 

Offline ninapizza23

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #48 on: January 11, 2010, 10:42:48 PM »
There is a pizzeria romana in NY that uses natural dough with different flours. The only one that I know!

Offline Bob1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #49 on: January 11, 2010, 10:54:00 PM »
Ninapizza23,
Do you know the name. and do you know if it is traditional?

Thanks,

Bob1


 

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