Author Topic: Pizzarium (Read 91904 times)

norma427 · « **Reply #20 on:** January 09, 2010, 01:02:33 PM »

widespreadpizza,

The pictures of the foccacia look delicious. That is interesting about how you mixed by hand in a bowl.

Thanks,
Norma

scottfsmith,

Thanks for finding the more detailed recipe.

Norma

JLP,

Great to hear how you are progressing.

Norma

Bob1 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 09, 2010, 01:46:03 PM »

This may help for any Italian recipes that are posted. I got it from the thread I posted earlier.

Type      Ash%   Protein Minimum%
Type 00     Max 0.55     9
Type 0     Max 0.65     11
Type 1     Max 0.80     12
Type 2     Max 0.95     12
Full     from 1.30 to 1.70     12

W inf. 130     No bread
W from 190 to 220 weak flour
W from 230 to 290     normal force
W from 300 to 370     of mean force -Protein from 14.5 to 15.5%
W from 380 to 450     strong-Protein from 15.5 to 18%

Bob1

widespreadpizza · « **Reply #22 on:** January 09, 2010, 04:17:39 PM »

Jose, once the crumb sets in the first half of baking, they always seem to support everything jut fine. Just had some sandwiches on that stuff out of the pannini press. They were great. -marc

ninapizza23 · « **Reply #23 on:** January 09, 2010, 06:35:24 PM »

Jose',
that pizza alla romana that you got from Gennarino site looks terrible!
Some bakers that make semolina bread cheat on the flour, they use yellow coloring and semolina flavor, I discovered it for the first time in Phoenix, then in NY and my town in Sicily. In NY, the baker/owner where I use to work a long time ago told me that he uses 50/50 but I don't believe him. i have extra fancy durum flour home and I only add 10% otherwise it will make the dough heavy. I read in a website that semolina flour is high in protein but very low in gluten or no gluten. In a website I read that they use malta d'orzo.

widespreadpizza · « **Reply #24 on:** January 09, 2010, 06:42:42 PM »

Nina, I must disagree about your 100% semolina making the crust heavy. The foccacia I posted on earlier 100% durum wheat and is melt in your mouth light. -marc

Jose L. Piedra · « **Reply #25 on:** January 09, 2010, 07:05:12 PM »

I just clicked on the link to the Gennarino site, and those pizzas do look pretty weird and oddly deformed...as though the cells collapsed either under the weight of the toppings and/or were squeezed during the process of being cut and didn't recover. What causes that, and- more importantly- how can it be avoided ?

JLP

norma427 · « **Reply #26 on:** January 09, 2010, 07:29:18 PM »

Does anyone know where bakerboy has his bakery? I think it is near me. Is it Conshohocken Italian Bakery?

If it is, I see Conshohocken Italian Bakey is open tomorrow from 7am to 1pm. They specialize in the Tomato Pie and other kinds of foccacia pies. If this is the bakery, I will try to go there tomorrow morning and purchase a Tomato Pie and see if I can find out anything about how they make their pies.

Norma

ninapizza23 · « **Reply #27 on:** January 09, 2010, 08:13:33 PM »

Widespreadpizza,
If you use 100% semolina to make bread in "un impasto diretto" like they say in Italy it will not rise, but if you make un impasto indiretto, it will work like the one that Matt did. I understand your disagreement because I did not explain myself properly. Do you agree with me now?

Bob1 · « **Reply #28 on:** January 09, 2010, 10:24:21 PM »

So far I have tried Matt's version of Marco's recipe with great results, I had used 40% Semolina and 60% KABF. I mixed all the flour together and used 75% of the flour for the poolish. This last batch I tried something different based on an earlier post. I am using an Excel sheet that calculates it out and I wrote comments on the side for a record. I will copy it below and it should explain my process. I found that instead of having the larger bubbles it was more uniform, like bread. It rose about 15% more than the previous recipe. The outer crust was ultrathin and crisp. Kind of like a high temp Caputo. In fact, in the third picture you can see that my thumb hit the front left corner and pushed it in. The smell of the ferment, the smell of the cook, and the final taste was very strong and tasted like fresh pasta. The Durum really showed through. I thought it was too strong for my taste. It was very very light. I think I prefer more body.
In a nutshell I used 60% durum and 40% KABF. I used all the Durum with 15% of the total KABF in the poolish to add structure. I also increased the hydration to 80% and reserved a little bit for the final phase to dissolve the yeast and help mix. It was topped with 28oz of 6 in 1 with spice and Pecorino. Hopefully the copied sheet will come out all right below. Sometimes the formatting gets squirrelly. Please excuse the quality of the crumb shot. I need a new camera.

Pizza in Teglia Spreadsheet: (grams)               Two

Pan Size   Sq In   G Per Ball Thick Fctr   Balls Qu     Total Weight
16 x   19   304   1292     0.150       1     1292
               Used in 16 x16     1088
               Reserved for cold ferment & Another Pie   204

   Bakers %   Total G   Durum   KABF
         60.00%   40.00%

Flour    100.00%   686.67   412.00   274.67
Water    80.00%   515.00
IDY   0.70%   4.81
Salt   2.50%   17.17
EVOO   5.00%   34.33

Total   188.20%   1257.97

Poolish:
Flour   66.00%    Durum    KABF     Mixed at 9PM 8/09
Water   86.00%    100.00%    15.00%     Finished dough 73 deg
Flour   453.20    412.00    41.20     Stored at 62 degrees
Water   442.90
IDY   1.30
Total   897.40

Next Day:      Durum   KABF     Mixed at 11AM 9/09
Flour   233.47     0.00    233.47     Finished dough Temp 73
Water   72.10
IDY   3.51     Rolled out dough in log for two hour rise
Salt   17.17     Panned for 1 hour parbaked for five minutes
EVOO   34.33     Sauced and baked for 17min at 400 Fh
Total   360.57

Thanks,

Bob1

Bob1 · « **Reply #29 on:** January 09, 2010, 10:34:59 PM »

Yes, I do not have the formatting issues figured out so I converted the sheet to a JPG, if any one wants to check it out.

Thanks,

Bob1

norma427 · « **Reply #30 on:** January 09, 2010, 10:41:42 PM »

Bob1,

How did you find the handling of this dough with a higher hydration? Also did you do the rest periods?
Overall, how was the taste and lightness?

Thanks,
Norma

Bob1 · « **Reply #31 on:** January 09, 2010, 11:11:05 PM »

Norma,
The dough was very easy to handle. I did not start and stop it. I did not use an autolyse either. I just made sure that I did a high speed DLX mix on the poolish until I got 73 degrees. I do not use the dough hook. I use the fluted drum with the scraper. Now that I am also experimenting more with temp I find that this mixer is great for controlling dough temps. I use the infrared gun to shoot the dough and it works great. It seems that once it hits temp it just firms right up. I know that I hear about temps of 80 degrees dough hook but everything I read on the Italian sites point toward 23 C or 73 degrees Fh for finished dough on pizza. The taste was very intense but like semolina or fresh pasta. It was very very light. I do not want to sound weird but the texture reminded me of eating chocolate pudding with air bubbles in it. Maybe too light. I think this has given me some ideas on possibly using this method with Caputo and the high oil to try and create an imitation WFO clone for low temps some day. Now that I am developing the gluten better I can start to understand the videos that I see. I could never understand how they pull those soft doughs out of the mixer and handle them so easy. On another note, I think if anyone wanted to use a long cold ferment on the poolish for more flavor the 15% KABF should be replaced with KASL for the longer time.

Thanks,

Bob1

Pete-zza · « **Reply #32 on:** January 09, 2010, 11:28:24 PM »

Quote from: norma427 on January 09, 2010, 07:29:18 PM

Does anyone know where bakerboy has his bakery?

Norma,

See Reply 138 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg47315/topicseen.html#msg47315.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #33 on:** January 09, 2010, 11:37:58 PM »

Peter,

I guess the visit to bakerboy's bakery will have to wait until another day. I see they are closed until January 13, 2010.

added picture of bakerboy's foccacia.

Thanks,
Norma

Bob1 · « **Reply #34 on:** January 10, 2010, 12:15:40 PM »

For what it's worth I found a Foccacia video from Genoa. I know it is a different region, but I found it interesting to see more detail with the process of the finished dough. He lets it rest, rolls it once, turns 90 degrees and rolls it again. Then he divides and lets it rise in the pan. Check it out.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZXueR_1tN4" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZXueR_1tN4</a>

Thanks,

Bob1

Jose L. Piedra · « **Reply #35 on:** January 10, 2010, 07:43:08 PM »

There has recently been an abundance of examples of people doing pan-baked pizza right on this forum. Here I'm going to present an example of doing it wrong. All aboard the failboat...

So I made the poolish yesterday according to my prior plan. It was the first time I ever made a preferment of any type, and I had no idea of what one is supposed to look like, but I got the feeling that it seemed awfully dense and dough-like for a poolish. I even mentioned as much in my post about making the poolish above.

That feeling should have been a massive red flag.

I took it out of the fridge around 11:00 AM today after 23 hours, let it warm up, mixed in the rest of the yeast, and then the salt and oil. So far, so good, I thought- notwithstanding a nagging doubt that would soon be confirmed once I spooned in the remaining flour and watched everything quickly coalesce into a nice shiny ball that cleaned the bowl entirely.

Obviously, there had been a measurement error the day before, and I wound up with a dough of about 64% hydration instead of the 75% I was aiming for. There was supposed to have been quite a high percentage of yeast in this dough (0.7%), but it rose on the counter at about the same rate as my usual doughs, which have much less yeast in them.

In short, I absent-mindedly put in too much flour and wound up with roughly the same humdrum dough I make every week and was hoping to upgrade. Sort of like the old cartoon gag where the crook unintentionally digs his way back into the very jail he was trying to tunnel out of. How ironic...

It goes without saying that the finished pie, while competent and topped in a savoury fashion, had exactly the same whitebread crumb I was trying to get away from. The 23 hour, botched poolish contributed nothing to improving the usual, boring flavour of this dough.

It looks like my breakout into the world of artisanal pan-baked pizza will have to wait at least another week. Study epic fail, learn from epic fail...

-JLP

norma427 · « **Reply #36 on:** January 10, 2010, 07:52:59 PM »

JPL,

Don't get discouraged, your pie looks very tasty.

I didn't get the results I wanted either. Back to the drawing board for us..lol

If we don't get it right the first time, try, try, try again. We will eventually get it right, with all the help we are receiving.

Thanks for sharing your experience and pictures.

Norma

Bob1 · « **Reply #37 on:** January 10, 2010, 07:57:19 PM »

Jose,

There is always tomorrow.

How did the crumb look with the lower hydration?

Thanks,

Bob1

Bob1 · « **Reply #38 on:** January 10, 2010, 08:01:04 PM »

How did the crumb look with the lower hydration?

Jose,
Let me elaborate on that. When you say bread like. were the bubbles small with no elasticity? Was there little flavor?

Thanks,

Bob1

Jose L. Piedra · « **Reply #39 on:** January 10, 2010, 08:56:13 PM »

Norma:

I'd get demoralized if I didn't have to go back to the drawing board from time to time. Imagine how boring pizzamaking would become if you could always get it right on your first try...

Bob1:

Yes, the bubbles were very small, almost like white bread, and the taste was about the same.

-JLP