Pizzarium

[Matthew]

For what it's worth I found a Foccacia video from Genoa.  I know it is a different region, but I found it interesting to see more detail with the process of the finished dough.  He lets it rest, rolls it once, turns 90 degrees and rolls it again.  Then he divides and lets it rise in the pan.  Check it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZXueR_1tN4


Thanks,


Bob1

Thanks for posting, great video.  What's interesting is the dough is only hydrated @ about 50% & he uses corn syrup as a substitute for malt extract.  He does mention in the beginning that the end result is more about the process & handling than the ingredients.

Matt

[Bob1]

Matt,
Glad you found the video interesting.  I guess you saw my results were less than expacted with the formula that I tried.  I was trying to get a good rise out of Durum by using the 15% KABF in the preferment.  It worked and I got more rise than with the 60/40, but the crumb was more bread like and it tasted to much like semolina for my taste.  However, on a good note I reserved a 204 gram ball for a one day cold ferment on the total mix.  It turned out a nice 10" pie cooked at 650 deg on a fibrement.  It was light and not bread like.  The crust had a good over all flavor of both flours and the browned crust was very tasty.  I will post a few pics.  I think I will try the same recipe again but add the second ferment and see what happens.  I also think I will push the hydration up to 85%.  I do not know what Gabriele actually uses but it looks very wet.

Thanks,

Bob 

[Bob1]

Oops, I hit the post button accidently.  Here are the pics

Thanks,

Bob1

[Bob1]

Jose,
Has any one actually been in Rome to try Pizza in Teglia?  It seems like we need to learn more about the process.  Marco gave a great recipe that gave a good result, but there was not a lot of detail on handling the dough.  How does it differ in texture from Focaccia?  How does it differ from focaccia, in how you handle the dough?  It seemed like Gabriele rolled the dough as some of the people who make Focaccia.  If his product is unique maybe he does a cross between the two.  Any ideas on that?

Thanks,

Bob1

[Matthew]

Jose,
Has any one actually been in Rome to try Pizza in Teglia?  It seems like we need to learn more about the process.  Marco gave a great recipe that gave a good result, but there was not a lot of detail on handling the dough.  How does it differ in texture from Focaccia?  How does it differ from focaccia, in how you handle the dough?  It seemed like Gabriele rolled the dough as some of the people who make Focaccia.  If his product is unique maybe he does a cross between the two.  Any ideas on that?

Thanks,

Bob1

Bob,
My personal observation is that the more you handle the dough the more bread-like the texture.  The last dough that I made in the sfincione thread was not handled at all after it was kneaded except very briefly 40 hours later to lightly stretch onto the pan.  As you can see from the photos it was extremely light & airy, not bread like at all.  I then did a 2nd proof for about 2 hours & the end result was a dough that was so bubbly that I could hardly spread the sauce on it.  My guess is that if there was no topping that I would of got some serious oven spring. 

I am intrigued by the video that you posted & am going to give it a shot this weekend using a starter, maybe my Ischia this time.  I think I am going to use 15% semola & 85% Caputo.  I'm also going to substitute the EVOO with strutto (because I like the texture that it adds) & am going to use malt extract instead of corn syrup. 

Matt

[Jose L. Piedra]

It seems like we need to learn more about the process.  Marco gave a great recipe that gave a good result, but there was not a lot of detail on handling the dough.  How does it differ in texture from Focaccia?  How does it differ from focaccia, in how you handle the dough?  It seemed like Gabriele rolled the dough as some of the people who make Focaccia.  If his product is unique maybe he does a cross between the two.  Any ideas on that?

Thanks,

Bob1

I think the only thing anybody around here knows about the process for sure at this point is that: a) Gabriele uses a natural starter, b) the hydration level of his doughs is 90% (which is pretty much normal for the style), c) in pro settings they use high-speed spiral mixers, and d) they use rigenero cycles.

Unfortunately whoever it was who produced the following video, http://video.aol.co.uk/video-detail/-pizza-rium/3866298856 decided to use fast-motion in the scene documenting what the guy is doing, but by double-clicking my mouse over the pause control rapidly I think I could make him out doing something like a stretch-and-fold- but it's hard to tell from just a smattering of frames. The other video shows Gabriele rolling dough into a cylinder, and it also shows him dumping a mass onto a tabletop and then stretching the part that wasn't stuck to the table back and forth as though playing an accordion. Can't speak italian, don't know how these two procedures are related (or even just what it is he's actually making, seeing as how he does lots of other types of bread).

I think a natural starter is a must for getting the crumb structure with the big bubbles definitive of the Romana style- or at least makes it a lot easier. Matt used a starter and totally nailed it in his latest sfincione project. Moreover, almost every picture I've seen of pizza of any style that had this sort of crumb was posted by somebody who said they used a starter to make it.

-JLP

[Bob1]

Jose,
Thanks for the recap.  I guess the other major question would be cooking temps.  I cooked mine at 400 deg F and I think that might have been to low.  From what I am seeing now, in several places, points more to a temperature ranging from 470 to 550 F.  I was really happy with the pie that I made with the left over dough at 650.  It was light, not bread like, and had nice structure.  I think it was the higher temp and the fact that the KABF had a chance to develop.  I think I will try it again with an adjustment on the ferment ratio, up the hydration, and cook it at 500 deg F.  I also think I let the ferment raise a little to much before I did phase 2 on the first batch.  Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Bob1

[Bob1]

Bob,
My personal observation is that the more you handle the dough the more breadline the texture.  The last dough that I made in the sfincione thread was not handled at all after it was kneaded except very briefly 40 hours later to lightly stretch onto the pan.  As you can see from the photos it was extremely light & airy, not bread like at all.  I then did a 2nd proof for about 2 hours & the end result was a dough that was so bubbly that I could hardly spread the sauce on it.  My guess is that if

Matt,
I did do a single cylinder roll with the dough, but that was it.  I am new at this.  Do you think that made it bread like?  I thought maybe because I did a room temp ferment and let it go a little to long.  When I say bread like, I meant the small bubble.  It was a very very light crumb.  I also think that the low temp does not give the steam expansion and rippage that you get from a hotter cook.  What temp are you cooking at?

I'll be looking forward to see how your pie comes out this weekend.

Thanks,

Bob1 

[ninapizza23]

There is a pizzeria romana in NY that uses natural dough with different flours. The only one that I know!

[Bob1]

Ninapizza23,
Do you know the name. and do you know if it is traditional?

Thanks,

Bob1

[Jose L. Piedra]

I guess the other major question would be cooking temps.  I cooked mine at 400 deg F and I think that might have been to low.  From what I am seeing now, in several places, points more to a temperature ranging from 470 to 550 F. 

For what my opinion is worth, that sounds totally right to me. 400 is just too low, especially with the higher levels of hydration. In fact, Marco recommended 280-300 Centigrade, which corresponds to about 545-570 or so.

Also, for what it's worth I've noticed from experience that the same dough can yield radically different results when it's directly baked (e.g. on a stone) than when it's baked in an oiled pan (even at the same temperature).

For all of these reasons, I'm not surprised to hear that your dough came out better on a screen at 650 than it did in the pan at 400.

I don't really know anything about preferments yet, so I'm not of any use in that area.

-JLP

[Bob1]

Thanks Jose,

I will try the hotter temps and see how well it works.  I also agree with you about the starters.  It is hard to compare crumbs.  I have the two Italian starters and I plan on starting the Camoldi this week.  I should be up and running in a few weeks. 

For all of these reasons, I'm not surprised to hear that your dough came out better on a screen at 650 than it did in the pan at 400.

Actually , I used a fibrement stone with no screen.  I would love to do the big pie on it but I think I need to get used to working with the high hydration doughs first.  I could foresee a major fiasco at this point.  The little 10" pie was easy to handle.

Thanks,

Bob1

[Matthew]

Matt,
I did do a single cylinder roll with the dough, but that was it.  I am new at this.  Do you think that made it bread like?  I thought maybe because I did a room temp ferment and let it go a little to long.  When I say bread like, I meant the small bubble.  It was a very very light crumb.  I also think that the low temp does not give the steam expansion and rippage that you get from a hotter cook.  What temp are you cooking at?

I'll be looking forward to see how your pie comes out this weekend.

Thanks,

Bob1 

Hi Bob,
My statement was just a general one, based on what you mentioned, I would say no.  I bake on a 3/4 " corderite shelf positioned in the lowest rack of my oven.  With another corderite shelf right over top.  I have a 48" convection gas oven oven, I crank it up to 500 with the convection going which adds about 25 degrees to the ambient temperature.  If your looking for steam expansion just put a tray of boiling water in the bottom rack of the oven.

Matt

[Bob1]

Thanks Matt,
Sounds like a nice oven.  I think I will try 500 with the pan and use the convection.  However, for the sake of speeding up the learning curve I will make extra dough and try a few small pies right on the stone.  I will also try different temps on those balls (550 & 575).  It will be interesting to see the difference. 
In regards to the steam, I was referring to the internal crumb action.  I want to develop a feel for the oven spring, steam inside the bubble, and the ability for the gluten to handle it.  I want to see bigger bubbles to get a different texture.  From the results of the 10" pie my dough had the ability to do what I want.  I do not think it was the second day ferment that helped as much as the higher temp.  There should be enough steam in the dough to overcome the weight of itself par baked.

Thanks,

Bob1

[ninapizza23]

Bob1,
what city do you live?

[Bob1]

Ninapizza23,
I live 20 miles Northeast of philly.  I am assuming you are in New York.  If so, is that City or state?

Thanks,

Bob1

[ninapizza23]

Bob1,
I live by JFK airport in Queens,NY. Do you ever come to NYC?

[Bob1]

Ninapizza23,
I have not been up there for a few years.  I had a service call at the BJ's club a few times.  I use my business travels to take advantage of checking out the pizza shops.  What is the name of the Roman style shop?  I'll mark it down in case I am in the area.

Thanks,

Bob1     

[ninapizza23]

HERE IS ANOTHER PICTURE OF PIZZA ROMANA AL METRO.

[norma427]

ninapizza23,

Is this the place you visited to purchase the Pizza Romana Al Metro, in Rome? If you go to the bottom of the article and click under Sicily in Rome if this where you can see all about the arancine your were talking about before?  I see what is all in the ingredients and that sounds tasty.

www.romepost.it/Best_of_Rome_Pizza_go.htm

I found the picture on a Google search of images and article under the search.

Thanks,
Norma