Author Topic: Pizzarium  (Read 173142 times)

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Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #50 on: January 11, 2010, 11:14:04 PM »
I guess the other major question would be cooking temps.  I cooked mine at 400 deg F and I think that might have been to low.  From what I am seeing now, in several places, points more to a temperature ranging from 470 to 550 F. 

For what my opinion is worth, that sounds totally right to me. 400 is just too low, especially with the higher levels of hydration. In fact, Marco recommended 280-300 Centigrade, which corresponds to about 545-570 or so.

Also, for what it's worth I've noticed from experience that the same dough can yield radically different results when it's directly baked (e.g. on a stone) than when it's baked in an oiled pan (even at the same temperature).

For all of these reasons, I'm not surprised to hear that your dough came out better on a screen at 650 than it did in the pan at 400.

I don't really know anything about preferments yet, so I'm not of any use in that area.

-JLP
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Offline Bob1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #51 on: January 11, 2010, 11:28:44 PM »
Thanks Jose,

I will try the hotter temps and see how well it works.  I also agree with you about the starters.  It is hard to compare crumbs.  I have the two Italian starters and I plan on starting the Camoldi this week.  I should be up and running in a few weeks. 

Quote
For all of these reasons, I'm not surprised to hear that your dough came out better on a screen at 650 than it did in the pan at 400.

Actually , I used a fibrement stone with no screen.  I would love to do the big pie on it but I think I need to get used to working with the high hydration doughs first.  I could foresee a major fiasco at this point.  The little 10" pie was easy to handle.

Thanks,

Bob1

Offline Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #52 on: January 12, 2010, 06:07:08 AM »
Matt,
I did do a single cylinder roll with the dough, but that was it.  I am new at this.  Do you think that made it bread like?  I thought maybe because I did a room temp ferment and let it go a little to long.  When I say bread like, I meant the small bubble.  It was a very very light crumb.  I also think that the low temp does not give the steam expansion and rippage that you get from a hotter cook.  What temp are you cooking at?

I'll be looking forward to see how your pie comes out this weekend.

Thanks,

Bob1 

Hi Bob,
My statement was just a general one, based on what you mentioned, I would say no.  I bake on a 3/4 " corderite shelf positioned in the lowest rack of my oven.  With another corderite shelf right over top.  I have a 48" convection gas oven oven, I crank it up to 500 with the convection going which adds about 25 degrees to the ambient temperature.  If your looking for steam expansion just put a tray of boiling water in the bottom rack of the oven.

Matt


Offline Bob1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #53 on: January 12, 2010, 08:24:18 AM »
Thanks Matt,
Sounds like a nice oven.  I think I will try 500 with the pan and use the convection.  However, for the sake of speeding up the learning curve I will make extra dough and try a few small pies right on the stone.  I will also try different temps on those balls (550 & 575).  It will be interesting to see the difference. 
In regards to the steam, I was referring to the internal crumb action.  I want to develop a feel for the oven spring, steam inside the bubble, and the ability for the gluten to handle it.  I want to see bigger bubbles to get a different texture.  From the results of the 10" pie my dough had the ability to do what I want.  I do not think it was the second day ferment that helped as much as the higher temp.  There should be enough steam in the dough to overcome the weight of itself par baked.

Thanks,

Bob1

Offline ninapizza23

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #54 on: January 12, 2010, 06:25:33 PM »
Bob1,
what city do you live?

Offline Bob1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #55 on: January 12, 2010, 06:58:39 PM »
Ninapizza23,
I live 20 miles Northeast of philly.  I am assuming you are in New York.  If so, is that City or state?

Thanks,

Bob1

Offline ninapizza23

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #56 on: January 12, 2010, 09:50:42 PM »
Bob1,
I live by JFK airport in Queens,NY. Do you ever come to NYC?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 12:06:08 PM by ninapizza23 »

Offline Bob1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #57 on: January 12, 2010, 10:13:22 PM »
Ninapizza23,
I have not been up there for a few years.  I had a service call at the BJ's club a few times.  I use my business travels to take advantage of checking out the pizza shops.  What is the name of the Roman style shop?  I'll mark it down in case I am in the area.

Thanks,

Bob1     

Offline ninapizza23

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #58 on: January 13, 2010, 11:24:08 PM »
HERE IS ANOTHER PICTURE OF PIZZA ROMANA AL METRO.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 11:17:59 AM by ninapizza23 »


Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #59 on: January 13, 2010, 11:57:16 PM »
ninapizza23,

Is this the place you visited to purchase the Pizza Romana Al Metro, in Rome? If you go to the bottom of the article and click under Sicily in Rome if this where you can see all about the arancine your were talking about before?  I see what is all in the ingredients and that sounds tasty.

www.romepost.it/Best_of_Rome_Pizza_go.htm

I found the picture on a Google search of images and article under the search.

Thanks,
Norma
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 12:10:47 AM by norma427 »

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #60 on: January 14, 2010, 01:15:17 AM »
There are some outstanding pics of al metro pies (as well as some hilarious Internet drama over the question of what they should be called) to be found in the following old thread:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,961.0.html.

I'd love to see the pans in which these things are baked...

-JLP
Scarsu d'ogghiu, e riccu di provolazzu ::)

Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #61 on: January 14, 2010, 08:06:25 AM »
JLP,

I think pizzanapoletana, explains the kind of pizza we are looking for in reply #11 under the same link you provided JLP.  He says: Pizza alla romana (o in teglia) find it's best expression in pizza bianca also known as focaccia patate e rosmarino. The dough is made in a different way, it is baked in a different way and the final result it is completely different from any other baking product. Roman pizza is made with a unique dough method which involves a phase called "rigeneri" and use percentage close to 110% flour to 100% water....

Then again in reply #17 he says:If we then start talking about focaccia, then we can explain the difference from the Sicilian one, Roman and Ligurian for example...

Then bakerboy says: i remember reading in carol fields "the italian baker" about a pizza like this made by a roman baker.  They sold this "pizza alla romana" by the yard, or by the foot.   

Here is more about this type of pizza:

Pizza (da pizzeria), pizza tonda, pizza alla pala, pizza da forno, pizza alla genovese, pizza in teglia, pizza al taglio, focaccia, and pane pizza are just some of the main variations of pizza .

http://ilmondodiluvi.blogspot.com/2008_11_26_archive.html

http://www.kucinare.it/user/ricetta.aspx?idricetta=607

www.montagnadilombardia.com/ricette/focaccia.html

http://www.unigel.it/it/catalogue/pizze-focacce.asp

 www.universocucina.com/forum/topic4437-15.html  This is a forum in Italian.

http://www.italiancookingforum.net/piazza_about.htm

http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?webtag=ab-italianfood

http://www.italyum.com/italian-recipes/pizza-recipes/

www.italiannotebook.com/Notes/pizzaataglio.htm

I know Matt can read Italian so maybe these sites might be interesting.  The one is a forum is in Italian.  I could go on searching forever, to find what you are looking for, but hopefully this will help someone.

Maybe Matt can see information at this forum and help us all.  :)

Norma
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 08:37:31 AM by norma427 »

Offline ninapizza23

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #62 on: January 14, 2010, 11:02:06 AM »
Norma,
sorry if I have not been able to answer before. I have been busy. The answer to your question is NO, I make my own arancini, I do not eat out much. Over last weekend I made about 20 arancini for my daughter and my guest pizzaiolo. Now I will be dealing with a pizzaiolo expert on pizza romana that want to open a pizzeria romana in NY with me. I will let you know sometime in the future. Also, I do not remember why I recommended Gino Focacceria on 18th ave, I have not been there in a year, my daughter  used to buy pane e panelli but now she's in college in AZ. But I do go to the bakery once in a while for cannoli.

Offline ninapizza23

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #63 on: January 14, 2010, 11:14:25 AM »
JLP,
pizza al metro is not done on trays. They don't make trays 3' long. They use a long pala with a special technique. There used to be 3 pizzerias in boston that specialized in this near the university but for some reason they closed.

Offline Bob1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #64 on: January 14, 2010, 12:58:26 PM »
Jose,
Here is a video of the three foot pies being made.  http://www.flour.it/Pizza-Romana-Stirata.htm
It came from this web page. http://www.flour.it/Flour-Video-Recipes.htm   
They also have a lot of data on the different types of flour rated in W and their particular uses.

Thanks,

Bob1

Offline Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #65 on: January 14, 2010, 07:12:43 PM »
Norma,
There is such an abundant variations of focaccia, pizza in teglia, & pizza al metro that it's mind blowing.  All 3 are quite different & unique in their own way.  I have been experimenting with pizza in teglia lately in roman style, roman with a sicilian twist, & pure sicilian.  I will probably give pizza al metro a shot in the spring once I fire up my WFO.  This weekend I will be experimenting with focaccia genovese.  I plan on doing it the traditional & true (vera) way by using tipo 00 flour, malt extract, & of coarse a wild yeast.  I haven't decided yet if I'm going to use strutto (lard) of EVOO in the dough.  I picked up a beautiful bottle of Oro di Sicilia (Sicilian Gold) premium cold pressed EVOO specifically for the focaccia.
I'm still fooling around with the numbers for my formula.  I plan on making the dough Saturday morning after my daughter's ballet class.

Matt

Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #66 on: January 14, 2010, 07:33:31 PM »
Matt,

I can see by searching there are so many kinds of focaccia and can also believe there are so many ways to go about making all of them.  Since I am not Italian, you know much more than I do. 
It will be interesting to see your focaccia genovese.   :) The bottle of Oro di Sicilia sounds very elegant.  Will be interested to see how your focaccia genovese turns out.
If I ever get a starter going, I will try different methods and different kinds of focaccia.  I am working on 2 natural starters of rye flour and water. The one I want to add Caputo after it gets to that right phase and the other I might either add AP or high-gluten flour. Only on day 4, but it seems to be doing okay.  .

Thanks for the update,  :)
Norma 


Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #67 on: January 15, 2010, 01:25:29 PM »
Thanks everybody for the links and insights. Now we know that not all Roman-type pies are interchangeable. The aggregation of information soldiers on...

I'm going to take one last stab at a poolish-based formulation and see what happens. If this doesn't get me the results I want, then it's off to the territory of natural starters. If that still doesn't work, then I'm going to seriously review my choice of flours and my mixing techniques (to think when I first started with pizzamaking I promised myself that I wouldn't become obssessive or geek out over it- but here we are...)

I took advantage of some idle time and hastily came up with the following (derived from Marco's recipes and Jeff V's treatment of same):

Flour: 100%
Water: 85%
IDY: 1%
Salt: 2.5%
Oil: 5%

For the poolish:

All the water
75% of the flour
1/3 of the IDY

The poolish is already in the fridge. Boy is it ever wet. I'm going to take out around 12:30 am tomorrow and take the rest from there.

-JLP
« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 02:07:39 PM by Jose L. Piedra »
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Offline Bob1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #68 on: January 17, 2010, 05:11:01 PM »
Jose,
I made a batch at the beginning of the week using 90% hydration. I was very surprised how easy it was to work with the wet dough.  The details are on my excel sheet picture below.  I deviated from the plan and decided to cook it on the stone.  The first large 16x16 pie was a disaster.  I preheated the oven for two hours and put the pie in.  To make a long story short the oven died and was only at 300 degrees when I put it in (Yes I never checked it).  It was a major fail. I used my other two 315 gram balls to make two other pies on two separate days.  I had formed a rough ball with them and refrigerated them for two hours to give them enough chill to help form the balls correctly.  This worked well.  I also wanted to get some toppings on so I made them a little thinner than I should have, in order to buy space.  I guess the bottom line is, I did not stick with the program but I did test the dough at these temps with these variables.  The crumb was very nice, light, and tasty.  I was not able to use the balls in a timely fashion.  I would have cut back on the secondary yeast if I would have known.  Sorry to deviate from the plan but it is similar and shows examples of a cold ferment and mixing all the semolina in the first stage.  These are the pics of the last pie.  I have some from the second pie but did not hook that camera up to retrieve them yet.

Thanks,

Bob1

Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #69 on: January 17, 2010, 05:27:23 PM »
Bob1,

Your recent pies looks very tasty.  It's great to see how you are progressing.   :)  The spreadsheet also helps me understand your formula.  Your recent pies have that nice and airy crust.  :)
I wanted to ask you a question, if you don't mind.  When using the durum flour, what brand did you use?  I have purchased some Bob's Red Mill No. 1 Durum Wheat Semolina Flour and I don't know if this is fine enough to use in a formula like yours.  When I have time I want look further at an Italian store in Lancaster.  I was there different times before, but didn't think to look for Italian flour. 

Great job in creating delicious looking pies!

Thanks for posting the pictures and spreadsheet.

Norma

Offline Bob1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #70 on: January 17, 2010, 06:17:54 PM »
Norma,
Thanks, for the nice comments,  I have no idea what durum I use.  I buy it from broken down 50# bags at Bova.  10#'s usually lasts a while for me.  You can tell if it is durum because it feels and looks like regular flour but has a yellow hue.  Semolina is a much coarser grind, closer to corn meal.  I am sure yours is good, as long as it appears powdery like flower.  Durum is week for trapping bubbles so it needs to be used with a higher protein flour to get a good rise.  Next time I am going to try and cut the KABF with KASL at 50/50 to see what happens.  I also ignored the bread making technique of not kneading the dough too much for a preferment.  It seemed to work because I could handle the dough very well, and I got great rise with a lot of air.  I use the Excel sheet so I can keep a log and insert my pictures.  It's great because I can post it with out having to type in the ingredients, or technique.  It seems to be more efficient.  It also calculates the thickness factors and ball sizes so I do not have to use the dough tools on line.  I have it set up for a thickness factor for Oz's/Sq in's for the forum, but I prefer to use grams.  It is easier for me to visualize the ratio.

Thanks,

Bob1

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #71 on: January 17, 2010, 06:49:16 PM »
Jose,
I made a batch at the beginning of the week using 90% hydration. I was very surprised how easy it was to work with the wet dough.

That's awesome. I tried to make a dough yesterday at only 85% hydration and it was such a complete disaster area (absolutely unmanageable, stuck like glue to everything it came into contact with) that I had to abort the project altogether.

Those pics look outstanding.

-JLP
Scarsu d'ogghiu, e riccu di provolazzu ::)

Offline Bob1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #72 on: January 17, 2010, 07:02:46 PM »
Jose,

Thanks,
I allways had trouble with wet dough before.  It seems to me that developing the batter made all the difference.   

Thanks,

Bob1

Offline Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #73 on: January 18, 2010, 06:17:05 AM »
That's awesome. I tried to make a dough yesterday at only 85% hydration and it was such a complete disaster area (absolutely unmanageable, stuck like glue to everything it came into contact with) that I had to abort the project altogether.

Those pics look outstanding.

-JLP

Jose,
The key to working with a super hydrated dough is alot of bench flour on the top & bottom.  This will make your life super easy especially when you cover your dough with a towel for proofing.  The best way is to sprinkle some flour on with a fine mesh strainer.  Don't worry about using too much, you can always brush it off once your dough sets properly.  Once your dough is done proofing it will develop a nice soft outer skin, making it alot easier to work with.

Matt

Offline Bob1

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #74 on: January 18, 2010, 09:16:24 AM »
Jose,
I used a lot of bench flour as Matt suggested, and I also added rice flour on top of the peel flour.  I used to use corn meal but it does introduce flavor.  I also try to use a bench flour of higher protein.  KASL is very thirsty and absorbs a lot of moisture.  When I divided mine I did not use any bench flour.  I made sure I had a little oil on my hands.  I also used just oil to form the balls and then tightened them up after an hour in the refrigerator.  When I pulled the spindle out of the DXL the dough pulled off the spindle and left it almost clean.  If I use my 16 x 16 pan I pour the dough in and then flip it to get oil on both sides.  I then cover it with saran wrap to raise.  When I did the balls I used the same method that Bill/SFNM did in one of his videos.  I powdered the top of the raised ball in the Tupperware container and dumped it on the peel.  I then finger press and stretch.  It did not even come close to sticking, in fact it was a pleasure to work with.

Thanks,

Bob1