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Offline Tele Pizza

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Dough Recipe Overnight fermentation
« on: January 24, 2010, 03:08:09 PM »
Hi guys, just a quick question about the dough formula for a refrigerated overnight ferment. We currently make our dough a few hours before use. After letting the dough mix we weigh out dough balls and let them rise at room temperature. I'm relatively new to this whole dough making process. I've read about the advantages of the overnight ferment so i thought it's something i would introduce. We make thin crust pizzas, i like a nice crisp exterior and an airy bread texture within. We use pizza screens in an electric deck oven. The oven is controlled by two thermostats for the top and bottom. The Bottom is set to 350 degrees c or 662 degrees fahrenheit and 320 degrees Celsius or 608 degrees fahrenheit for the top.
Our current dough recipe for the room temperature ferment is detailed below:

Flour (12.3 % protein) : 100%  [7.5kg or 16.5346697 pounds]
Salt : 1.6 % [4.23287543 ounces]
Water (approx 80 degrees f or 26.7 degrees celcuis) : 55% [4.125kg or 9.09406832 pounds]
Instant Dried Yeast : 0.96% [72g or 2.53972526 ounces

Should i alter the recipe for the overnight refrigerated ferment?

When i take the dough out the following day i was planning to use the following procedure:
* Dough out of fridge
* Tipped out of container onto bench
* Dough pieces cut off and weighed into dough balls
* Dough balls placed into dough trays
* Trays stacked on top of eachother to make sure the dough balls are stored in a sealed environment
* Trays left in kitchen at room temperature
* Dough balls allowed to rise so that they have doubled in size
* Dough balls rolled out into pizza bases
* Pizza bases allwoed to sit on a rack at toom temperature before being made into topped pizzas.

Also im intending to change the flour so that the protein content is 13.1%.... Would this affect the formula??

Thanks guys :)

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Dough Recipe Overnight fermentation
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2010, 04:02:55 PM »
Tele Pizza,

You will definitely want to scale back the yeast for overnight fermentation. If it is cold where you are, you might try 0.40-0.45% IDY to start and see what results you get. I also suggest that you use the dough management procedures outlined at Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7499.msg64554.html#msg64554. Since you are not using oil or sugar, you can ignore the instructions that apply to those ingredients. In the U.S., there are many pizza operators who pre-prepare skins when they know that they are going to be slammed with a lot of orders within a short period of time.

If you plan to use a stronger flour, you will perhaps want to increase the amount of water, maybe by a couple or few percent.

I am not familiar with oven deck thermostats and the best oven temperatures, so you may need to do some experimenting or get advice from someone knowledgeable about such matters if you don't get the desired results using the modified dough recipe.

Peter

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Dough Recipe Overnight fermentation
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2010, 04:30:32 PM »
Tele Pizza,

I forgot to ask you what kind of mixer you are using. The dough management procedures presuppose a planetary mixer, which is the most common type of mixer used in the U.S.

Peter

Offline Tele Pizza

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Re: Dough Recipe Overnight fermentation
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2010, 04:59:13 PM »
Hi Peter, thanks for the reply, ill check that post out. Im using a spiral mixer. http://www.caterkwik.co.uk/shop/images/products/ck0318.jpg

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Dough Recipe Overnight fermentation
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2010, 05:15:11 PM »
Tele Pizza,

After I posted, I recalled that you had posted in another thread in which you said that you were using a spiral mixer. You might take a look at the PMQ Think Tank thread on spiral mixer times, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8204&p=56514&hilit=#p56308.

I suspect that refrigeration is still a problem and that is why you laid out a procedure to follow that would entail refrigerating the dough in bulk and then doing the division after the cold fermentation. I don't have any advice for you on that approach. If you try it and it doesn't work, I suggest that you register at the PMQTT and pose your questions there for the members who visit that forum to consider. Many pizza operators have limited storage space, so maybe some member has a solution for you to consider. One solution might be to par-bake the shells and complete the pizza assembly as needed.

Peter

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Offline scott123

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Re: Dough Recipe Overnight fermentation
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2010, 05:19:17 PM »
Tele Pizza, I hate to sound like a broken record (from the other thread) but what's the cooking time on the conveyor oven?

How much char are you getting on the bottom of the crust?

These are really important questions when it comes to getting the texture on the crust right.

Overnight cold ferments aren't really bringing much to the table when it comes to texture. Sure, during the long fermentation, gluten is enhanced by additional hydration and rising movement, but, generally speaking, you don't do a long cold ferment for an airier crumb but for an improved taste profile.

If you're striving for a more open crumb with less chewiness, as I said before, you either put your yeast into a more active state with a punch down or you increase the hydration/heat. Now, my background is in baking, so I tend to incorporate punch downs in a home setting, but, as Peter said in the other thread, punch downs generally aren't done in a commercial pizza setting. It will give you a uniform, bready, open crumb, but, it probably isn't worth the additional labor for a larger operation.

So, hydration and heat. Generally speaking, as you go from the 50s towards the 60s in percent hydration, the additional water gives you additional steam, which, in turn, gives you greater oven spring/a more open crumb. If you're working with a WFO and can churn out pizzas in a minute and half, then 55% hydration will give you puffiness. As you decrease the heat/increase the cooking time, though, 55% hydration is generally a recipe for a very dense chewy crust. I, personally, work in the high 60s, but that's a little towards the high end of the spectrum.  It'll depend a lot on your flour, but I'd probably give 63% a shot the first time.

In order to turn that water to steam, you need heat. Really intense heat. Degrees c or degrees f doesn't tell us much about how your oven operates.  Screens, to an extent, tend to be insulators and the distance between the element and the pie can change the radiant heat impact dramatically.  In my GE oven, I can preheat it for an hour at 550, make sure the element is red hot before the pie goes in (on a seasoned aluminum sheet), and still take 10+ minutes to bake a pie.  550, 10+ minutes, dense, chewy.  I can also take an hour at 550 to preheat a very thick conductive pizza stone and get a pie in 3 minutes. 550, 3 minutes, airy and open.  Exact same temperature, completely different pizza.  So, if you really want to get the texture of the crust right (nice crisp exterior and an airy bread texture), you want to talk less in degrees c or f and more in baking time.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Dough Recipe Overnight fermentation
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2010, 05:00:23 PM »
Tele Pizza,

I see that your registered and posted at the PMQTT, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8555&sid=58e0840b6ac42fa2e7ec3ff2e9b2a909.

Can you tell us how many dough balls you are making with your bulk dough, and what kind of refrigerator capacity you have at your disposal to store dough balls?

Peter

Offline Tele Pizza

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Re: Dough Recipe Overnight fermentation
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2010, 04:49:33 PM »
Hi peter, at the moment im still making the dough and letting the doughballs ferment at room temperature. I'm waiting on several large plastic containers with lids to arrive that should allow me to store approx 12 doughballs per box. They are slightly smaller than a dough tray and i will be able to store them in my refrigerator stacked on top of one another. I think i'm using too much yeast for my formula though. I use IDY and because ive been used to having a short fermentation time the doughballs proof too quickly. Ive been using IDY at about 1%. When i attempt the overnight ferment with my new trays i'm going to drop the IDY yeast down to about 0.3%. Would you say that is a sensible adjustment? I'll get some photos up when im going through the process.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Dough Recipe Overnight fermentation
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2010, 05:14:30 PM »
I think i'm using too much yeast for my formula though. I use IDY and because ive been used to having a short fermentation time the doughballs proof too quickly. Ive been using IDY at about 1%. When i attempt the overnight ferment with my new trays i'm going to drop the IDY yeast down to about 0.3%. Would you say that is a sensible adjustment? I'll get some photos up when im going through the process.

Mike,

I see that you have posted your yeast question over at the PMQ Think Tank. Usually it is Tom Lehmann who answers those types of questions but it appears that he has been out of his office for some time and has not been answering recent inquiries. However, I would say that your current yeast level of 1% (IDY) is adequate for your same-day, few-hours dough. Once you go to cold fermentation, you should reduce the amount of yeast, and 0.30% sounds like a good starting point. If it is generally cold where you are, you might bump the IDY to 0.40% and control your water temperature to get a finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F (if you will be using a home type refrigerator rather than a commercial cooler).

I personally think that you will get a better end product using less yeast and cold fermentation. With your current 1% yeast level and only a few hours of room temperature fermentation, you will usually get plenty of dough expansion and fermentation activity but not enough natural sugars through amylase enzyme performance (the action of amylase enzymes on damaged starch to produce natural sugars for fermentation processes and for crust coloration) to produce enough residual sugars (sugars left after feeding the yeast) to good crust color. The amylase enzymes slow down during cold fermentation but they still continue to work. Beyond two or three days of cold fermentation, you might consider adding some sugar to your dough formulation.

I hope you will keep us posted on your progress, and very much look forward to your photos.

Peter

Offline Tele Pizza

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Re: Dough Recipe Overnight fermentation
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2010, 05:28:26 PM »
Thanks peter for that info, ill keep you posted on my progress

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