Shakey's thin crust pizza dough part three

[DNA Dan]

Has it been conclusively determined that Budweiser was growing and selling bread yeast as opposed to one of their brewing strains?  I know it has been speculated that during prohibition Budweiser started selling the yeast from their current wort process and dumped the beer.

The fresh yeast from NY bakers does have a different smell to it compared to just rehydrating some ADY in water. It's almost like a Candida (foot odor) smell. Although it smells more pungent, it did not make my pie smell or taste too much different. It had more flavor than ADY, but not that peculiar Shakey's smell.


And Lightmeter, for the record your recollection was one "block" of yeast in a 25lb sack of flour? or was it 50lbs? I assume the block was a 5 lb similar to this one? http://www.esnarf.com/4795k.htm or was it smaller?

[Mad_Ernie]

Thanks ME, I'll give the upper crust a shout to see about cake yeast. A while back I tried sending an email to Great Harvest Bread Co and got nothing back. I'm thinking initially I'll want to get my hands on the stock retail brands to start, like red star and fleishmans since I'm guessing they'll be close to the bud yeast. Although back in the day i didn't do much baking as a hobby, i did bake a scratch  pizza every so often and never found much color or consistency difference in the small grocery store cakes compared to the 1 lb bud yeast bricks we used at shakeys. I seem to recall Pabst was a store brand at the time. It's hard to describe the feel, smell or color of the bud yeast, but it was unique and I'll certainly know it if I come accross anything similar. We'll see.

Would Boulevard Brewing Co. be another possibility? 

- ME

[lightmeter]

And Lightmeter, for the record your recollection was one "block" of yeast in a 25lb sack of flour? or was it 50lbs? I assume the block was a 5 lb similar to this one? http://www.esnarf.com/4795k.htm or was it smaller?

No - we used a 1 pound block in each batch - and sorry I just don't recall the exact weight of Fluor we used. It certainly wasn't an even 25# or 50# bag. It had to be weighed into multiple bus tubs. However, from Old Shakey’s Cop, the thin crust dough recipe is 42 lbs Fluor (not high gluten), 2 bags dough blend (est.  1.5 lb ea), 1.75 lb solid vegetable shortening, 1 lb compressed yeast, and 7.5-8 qts water. Very credible and that works for me. Water weighs 8.345 lb/gallon. Using Lehmans calculator provides the following. This will be my starting place once I get some fresh yeast.

Flour (100%): 672.05 oz = 42 lbs
Water (39.74%): 267.07 oz = 16.69 lbs
CY (2.38%): 15.99 oz = 1 lbs
Salt (1%): 6.72 oz = 0.42 lbs
Oil (4.17%): 28.02 oz = 1.75 lbs
Sugar (2%): 13.44 oz = 0.84 lbs
Total (149.29%): 1003.3 oz = 62.71 lbs

This makes sense - an 18 year old kid lifting a 62 pound blob of dough out of a Hobart bowl sitting at ground level... yep, that seems about right.

As to whether Budweiser was selling brewers yeast for baking purposes – or instead producing baking yeast  for baking purposes… Wikipedia states that “…baking and brewing yeasts typically belong to different strains, cultivated to favour different characteristics: baking yeast strains are more aggressive, to carbonate dough in the shortest amount of time possible; brewing yeast strains act slower, but tend to produce fewer off-flavours and tolerate higher alcohol concentrations..” I can’t conclude positively from this, but considering the Shakey’s dough really jumped and was full of gas, it doesn’t fit that a beer yeast would perform in this way.

[Zing]

I decided to research a little further and see if Lallemand still selling descendants of Budweiser yeast. This is their current line card for bakers' yeast products:
http://www.lallemand.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/BYI-Am-10-en.pdf

Searching the Internet Archive finds this description of one fresh yeast product of interest:

"•Eagle  Compressed Yeast- packaged in 5 pound (split into five pieces) or 2 pound (split into 2 pieces) to provide convenience to the retail or foodservice baker, or to the operation benefiting from pre-measured units."

The only problem is I can't find any foodservice or bakery distributors who carry this product. It may have been discontinued. UPDATE: See my entry of May 7th, 2012.

The website for Lallemand's brewing yeasts is:
http://www.danstaryeast.com/products/3

[DNA Dan]

Ironic you just posted that about the Lallemand yeast. I just had a three way experiment tonight with three different pies using the following conditions with the standard RT formula:

1) Fresh Baker's yeast - 4 day ferment
2) Lallemand Windsor Ale yeast - 3 day ferment
3) Carl's Oregon sourdough starter - 3 day ferment

I made them all the same, then gave them the standard reference toppings (Pepperoni, mushroom, sausage, fresh garlic.) The vote among the 4 people eating it was #2 had the best flavor. Was it Shakey's? Not by a longshot.

I would normally agree with your comments lightmeter about the brewer's yeasts, however I must say that Windsor Ale yeast behaved almost like ADY. It was much more gaseous than I had anticipated. You should all give them a try sometime. I think I like the Lallemand brewer's yeasts better than the LeSaffre yeasts. You know after trying several of these they all have a similar malt and yeast flavor like using a light beer in the crust. It's good, but not that "peculiar" smell we associate with Shakey's. I am leaning more and more towards some artificial additive and not just simple fermentation. I have done this now with many types of yeasts, using many different types of flour, many different fermentation conditions, etc., and they just don't add up to that smell. OH THAT SMELL! 

I am looking more at some non-conventional things to try and identify what we're dealing with. There's something in that flavor blend. I suspect the yeast is there for the "puff" and not much else. I have to go 4 days of fermentaiton, crazy on the yeast, or add beer to the crust just to get some real taste out of it. In a restaurant, they don't go to these lengths to make the product taste like this. I think the magic bullet is already in the sack, not the yeast.

[lightmeter]

It's almost like a Candida (foot odor) smell. Although it smells more pungent, it did not make my pie smell or taste too much different. It had more flavor than ADY, but not that peculiar Shakey's smell.

I just had an ah-ha moment. Although I'm guessing this may have already have been covered in another thread, I can't find it. Anything that smells like pungent feet makes me think of stinky cheese. My good friend and past Shakeys co-worker says he was always told that the 7 cheeses totaled from a combination of four cheeses in the shaker cheese plus the core mozz, prov and cheddar. That makes 7. Not to be forgotten, as the very last ingredient, added to every pie, just before going into the oven, each pie got a dusting of topping cheese. More importantly, the topping cheese was stinky cheese, a blend of hard grated cheeses, refrigeration not required. Is it possible that the Shakey's smell you're seeking is the topping cheese? Perhaps a blend of Parmesan, Romano, Asiago, other? This was a very strong aroma cheese which I would expect to be picked up in the crust, at least in the edge of the crust. Not only did the topping cheese add flavor and aroma, but since these are not what would be considered melting cheeses, it was subject to leaving little gold, and sometimes burnt specks on the surface ingredients. I have to admit, it is a fond aroma of my youth but not my favorite flavor ingredient. I always left off the shaker cheese whan making a pie for myself.

[DNA Dan]

Another member suggested trying the vermont cheese powder here:  http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/vermont-cheese-powder-6-oz

I haven't had the time to order it yet, but I think I may give it a whirl. This is something I would add to the dough. It definitely could be the cheese on the pies. I have not had Shakey's in quite a while, so my memory is a bit fuzzy. What do others think? Smell coming from the crust itself or not? I know some members do the taste testing with the toppings and cheese scraped off the slice.

[Mad_Ernie]

Dan and Lightmeter:

Having had a Shakey's pizza about 6 weeks ago, I can say that what lightmeter says about a dusting of strong, pungent cheese is definitely a possibility.  I am not sure if this is the flavor you are seeking from your memory, but that explanation from lightmeter rings a bell with my taste-buds memory from my recent visit to Shakey's and the aroma, if not the flavor, of the final product.  There is something about that aroma that was elusive to me, but now makes sense. However, keep in mind, as I have posted in the American Style thread some weeks ago,

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18418.0.html

Shakey's and other pizza chains in California have recently gone to no fats (shortening, lard, oil) in their doughs henceforth.  Which means trying to go to a Shakey's now to capture that old flavor we have in our heads from our youth is probably a lost cause.  It's possible Shakey's in Hawaii, Washington, Alabama etc. may not have the same dough mix, but given the size of Shakey's in the US these days, and so few locations outside of California, I am not hopeful that whoever makes their dough flour hasn't made a complete switch for all locations and they all get the same mix.

-ME  

[Zing]

I live in an area where all trans fats are banned in restaurants. But, I can't find anything on the web that says California banned all fats in pizza. Food manufacturers responded by offering what is called "zero trans fat" products. They are more expensive than the products they replace, but don't cause that drastic a change in the taste of the food. However, things like shelf life and cost are affected. Here is one firm's offerings to restaurants where trans fats are banned:
http://www.midatlanticveg.com/publish/zero-trans-fat.shtml

Note: Mid Atlantic has been owned for the last few years by Bunge Oils.

A good backgrounder from a few years ago:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16051436/

EDITED to add ownership information for Mid Atlantic Vegetable Oils.

[DNA Dan]

Stinky cheese makes sense to me, especially if it goes on the pie prior to cooking. The oven would be blowing the smell all over the restaurant. Interesting. 

[Mad_Ernie]

I live in an area where all trans fats are banned in restaurants. But, I can't find anything on the web that says California banned all fats in pizza. Food manufacturers responded by offering what is called "zero trans fat" products. They are more expensive than the products they replace, but don't cause that drastic a change in the taste of the food. However, things like shelf life and cost are affected.

You are right on all counts, Zing.  The way it was explained to me was like the companies HAD to make these changes, but I think they were actually voluntary, based on what I could find on the internet.  The manager at the Round Table restaurant told me the difference he noticed in making the dough was that it puffed up almost twice as much as the previous version with the oils/fat in it.  However, even though they still use scraps, he said this new dough will not last as long as the old version and has to be thrown out if not used in 2 days.

-ME

[Zing]

I know I am tilting at windmills here, but it seems the direct descendant of Budweiser compressed bakers yeast is still being sold. The brand name is now Eagle and is sold by American Yeast Sales, which is owned by Lallemand. A few bakery supply company online catalogs:

http://www.standardfooddistributor.com/pdf/StandardFoodsProductList3-38-11.pdf
http://www.gregorysfoods.com/Sample/OrderForm.cgi?FILE=6.csv&NEXT=1.csv
http://www.bmsdistributors.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1&category_id=29&page=shop.browse&limit=25&limitstart=0
http://lentzmilling.com/dryProductsProd.asp?supplier_id=4705761591&subcategory_id=2632553970&category_id=2539777906

Otto Brehm Company, the large NYC distributor, offers to sell it by the 2 pound cake, but they deliver directly to bakeries.

One supply house in New Jersey (sorry I can't find it again) still lists it as Budweiser Yeast!

[DNA Dan]

Interesting. They do have a website here: http://www.eagleyeast.com/index.aspx

And it seems their strains are primarily for ethanol production. They are brewer's/distillers strains. I wonder if these are just crazy active yeasts like the "Turbo" varieties you can get at most brewing supply places. It would make sense for a cold fermented dough, use the heartiest strain of yeast possible to get the maximum amount of fermentation products at the lowered temps.

Zing- Did you make the connection that the Bud strain was part of the Danstar portfolio that lallemand established? If so I wonder if the "Diamond Lager" yeast strain on the Danstar website is the same strain. Interestingly it's the only strain listed as being classified as Saccharomyces carlsbergensis (new taxonomy: Saccharomyces pastorianus). Could it be this simple?

[Zing]

Dan,

I was continuing a line of research that started on the sauce thread about the Budweiser yeast delivered to Shakey's in Rockville, MD. Anheuser Busch's first brewery outside of St. Louis was built in Newark, NJ in 1951. But Anheuser-Busch built a baker's yeast plant in East Brunswick, NJ (sometimes referred to as Old Bridge) about 1931:
http://archive.woodbridgelibrary.org/Archive/CarteretPress/1931/1931-06-05/pg_0007.pdf

Presumably, Old Bridge made the yeast for Newark. But I have not done any research into whether or not Old Bridge sold any brewer's yeast externally. Unfortunately, I don't know much about brewing so can't answer your question. I still don't know if Anheuser Busch/Old Bridge made brewers yeast in fresh compressed cake form. By the 1970's most local breweries were out of business. So I don't know if Anheuser Busch would be distributing anything but fresh baker's yeast in the Washington, DC area.

Lallemand did not want the Old Bridge, NJ plant when it bought the old Anheuser Busch yeast operation from Gist Brocades. Its American Yeast division had and still has production facilities in Baltimore. What I can't verify is that the strain of bakers yeast being sold under the Eagle trademark today is the same as what Anheuser-Busch sold in the 70's. But its a sure bet that retail bake shops buying the old Budweiser yeast started getting cartons labeled Eagle one day. And if you want to buy 40 pounds of it, you can!

Aerial views of 85 Main Street, East Brunswick, NJ show a vacant lot with a power substation still standing. There are newspaper articles indicating some folks want to redevelop the site.

[Zing]

Found it!

Anacapri Foods, only 20 road miles from the site of the Old Bridge yeast plant and even closer to the Anheuser-Busch Newark Brewery, still lists cake yeast as "Budweiser Bakers Yeast". Go to:

http://www.anacaprifoods.com/catalog2.php

and enter 004594 in the item # field, then press Seach!

[Mad_Ernie]

Found it!

Anacapri Foods, only 20 road miles from the site of the Old Bridge yeast plant and even closer to the Anheuser-Busch Newark Brewery, still lists cake yeast as "Budweiser Bakers Yeast". Go to:

http://www.anacaprifoods.com/catalog2.php

and enter 004594 in the item # field, then press Seach!

Nice find, Zing.  Thanks for posting.

-ME

[DNA Dan]

I tried their email and my message bounced back. I used the online inquiry form, so we'll se what they say.

Where did you see the Eagle brand yeast for sale?

[Zing]

I have not physically seen Eagle fresh bakers yeast sold anywhere. I did find it listed on the online catalog of a total of five foodservice and bakery supply houses, most listed in this above thread:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10707.msg186349.html#msg186349

I did see a 40 pound sealed case of Red Star fresh bakers yeast at a Restaurant Depot. The two other big brands are Fleischmanns and Red Star.

[DNA Dan]

Looking at the logo, I vaguely remember seeing a brochure for this yeast at the place I worked. We did not use this yeast, but I recall it being sold for pizza.

There must be a member on here with access to foodservice that can back up that claim.

I have used the "brewer's strain" that a lot of people say is the same as what budweiser uses, and it was okay, not the magic Shakey's bullet. I suppose I should try and cultivate it more so it's in a compressed type format. I think wet vs. dry vs. compressed vs. liquid culture makes a difference.

[DNA Dan]

From what I can tell, the strain used by AB for Bud is Wyeast 2007. Sometimes packaged as "St. Louis Lager" more recently as "Pilsen Lager". The actual number #2007 is what you want to look for. I think they were forced to rename it, but if you read the description, it's pretty telling.

http://www.wyeastlab.com/rw_yeaststrain.cfm

I am the process of growing up #2124 the Bohemian Lager because it's listed as being a Carlsberg strain. By my account this should be a Saccharomyces Pastorianus strain. Since finding these critters as fresh yeast is impossible, I am growing them and harvesting the yeast to make my doughs.

I think what we're after here is a Lager strain - bottom fermenting. The ale strains I have used in the past do taste decent; better if they are in some trub or wort that has beer precursors.