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Author Topic: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula  (Read 78659 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #260 on: October 13, 2010, 12:29:03 PM »
Norma,

Can you tell us how you converted part of your Ischia poolish culture to biga format and what amount of flour and water you have been using as part of your feeding regimen to get/keep the percent of water to 35%?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #261 on: October 13, 2010, 06:53:21 PM »
Norma,

Can you tell us how you converted part of your Ischia poolish culture to biga format and what amount of flour and water you have been using as part of your feeding regimen to get/keep the percent of water to 35%?

Peter

Peter,

I know if probably didnít go about converting this Ischia poolish culture into a biga format in the right way, but I had started last week to convert the Ischia poolish into a biga by measuring 105 grams of flour and feeding the Ischia poolish a couple of times.  Then I placed the mixture into the refrigerator until Monday evening.  The next thing I did was take one cup of the mixture, added 4 cups of flour and 3 cups of water to the mixture.  The mixture does look like a biga to me, but I am not sure if it is really a biga.  I want to leave this mixture (biga) at room temperature and keep feeding it until Friday and then make a dough for Tuesday.  I am going to also make two doughs tonight to take to Steveís. 

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #262 on: October 13, 2010, 10:21:26 PM »
Norma,

Unless you can reproduce your biga-like preferment and quantify its components (flour and water) by weight, and confirm a water content of 35%, your results may be inconclusive and not offer any guidance as what to do next. Your fermentation protocol may also not be the best one for your biga-like preferment.   

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #263 on: October 13, 2010, 10:56:56 PM »
Norma,

Unless you can reproduce your biga-like preferment and quantify its components (flour and water) by weight, and confirm a water content of 35%, your results may be inconclusive and not offer any guidance as what to do next. Your fermentation protocol may also not be the best one for your biga-like preferment.   

Peter

Peter,

I can understand what I did wonít give me any conclusive results.  I just wasnít sure of how much flour and water to add to the poolish/culture after my first feed of 105 grams of flour.  How would I go about fixing the mixture I have now?  My math skills are still lacking when knowing what to do. I want to try this mixture or if I can fix it on Friday in a dough for market.  Will letting this mixture out at room temperature to feed it, mess up the fermentation protocol if I can get the mixture straightened out?

I made two doughs tonight.  One with Caputo flour and one with KASL.  I used the formula I had posted at Reply # 213.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg112891.html#msg112891   What interested me about taking the pH levels of the mixture after it was active and had fallen this evening was the pH of the active mixture was 4.26.   After I mixed the final dough the pH of the KASL dough was 5.04 and the pH of the final dough with the Caputo flour was 5.02.  They seem low, but can see there isnít the amount of starter in these doughs, that I had tried before. I wonder if the pH levels now will go up while the dough is bulk fermenting.  I have no idea how these doughs are going to turn out when baking a pizza.  I also took the ambient room temperature and final dough temperatures .  I will take the pH levels again when I am ready to ball the dough and put it into the refrigerator. 

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #264 on: October 14, 2010, 09:11:55 AM »
Below is the pH, final dough temp. and ambient room temp. worksheet for the two doughs I made yesterday.  I have balled both doughs and I am going to let them room temperature ferment until I think they look fermented enough.  Both of the doughs now look like they are fermenting slowly.

A quote from Lillian Dickson, which is true in my opinion. ďLife is like a coin.  You can spend it any way you wish..but you can only spend it once!Ē another quote, ďLearn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow and The important thing is not to stop questioning.Ē, "The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing."
Albert Einstein

Norma

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #265 on: October 14, 2010, 09:57:15 AM »
I can understand what I did wonít give me any conclusive results.  I just wasnít sure of how much flour and water to add to the poolish/culture after my first feed of 105 grams of flour.  How would I go about fixing the mixture I have now?  My math skills are still lacking when knowing what to do. I want to try this mixture or if I can fix it on Friday in a dough for market.  Will letting this mixture out at room temperature to feed it, mess up the fermentation protocol if I can get the mixture straightened out?

Norma,

What has confused me is your decision to switch from an Ischia poolish to an Ischia biga preferment. That surprised me because your last attempt to use a biga with the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation--albeit a commercially leavened biga--did not produce the desired results (mainly because of the low hydration). Also, I thought that at some point you wanted to make another run at using an Ischia sponge preferment as suggested by Matt.

Under the circumstances, I think you should let your recent experiments with the KASL and Caputo flours run their full course. Although we really don't know the precise nature of the preferments used in those doughs, maybe you will learn something from the experiments anyway.

Next, I would decide what kind of Ischia preferment you would really like to try next, whether it is a biga preferment, a sponge preferment, or even another poolish preferment. Then I would develop a plan for that particular preferment, including a dough formulation and a possible fermentation protocol that might work in your setting at market. Unfortunately, I will not be able to help you with that effort until next week since I will be attending an out-of-town wedding this weekend and won't be in a position to work on the matter. In any event, if you decide that you want to try a biga or sponge preferment for your next experiment, I would suggest that you start a new thread devoted to that experiment. I think that a new thread would be more efficient organizationally and should make it easier to follow the experiment without having posts on multiple experiments intertwined in the same thread.

Of course, you should feel free to try another experiment on Friday for completion at market next week so that you don't lose a week's time. Maybe you can try Matt's sponge method again. If he is available, he might even be able to assist you with the numbers for the dough formulation.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #266 on: October 14, 2010, 11:19:27 AM »
Peter,

Sorry to confuse you with my decision to try another kind of preferment.  Before I am fully committed to trying any dough out for market, I like to explore the different possibilities to see what a crust would taste like using something like a biga or sponge.  I know I donít have the math skills to go forward with these experiments, without help.  I know I tried a biga before in the experiment for the preferment for the Lehmann dough before you came up with the poolish modification for the preferment Lehmann dough thread.  I donít really understand what the difference is in preparing the Ischia starter poolish to change it into a sponge or biga format.  In this experiment I just did with the Ischia starter by trying to change it, I just wanted to see what difference the taste would be in letting the mixture sit at room temperature and feeding it, something like a sourdough crust.  I have never really tasted a pizza made that had any sour taste in the crust and donít know if I would like a sour taste in the crust.  Since I used a small percentage of the mixture in this KASL and Caputo doughs, I donít think there will be a sour taste in the crust, but that is just what I wanted to find out.  I might mix a dough on Friday that has more percentage of this mixture to see how that will affect the taste of the crust. 

I would like to try a sponge like Matt suggested to also see how this would affect the crust taste.  Probably none of these ideas are going to be ideal for my market pizza, because the time frame probably wonít fit into something that has to be fermented for a longer while like a biga or sponge.  I surely donít know what kind of mixture I have now, but can see how long it takes for this mixture to rise and fall.  That wouldnít work out in the time frame for market and also with the changing ambient temperatures at market.  I know that only making pizzas only one day a week and trying to keep any kind of starter active is going to be a challenge that probably wonít work out.  I can understand that the Ischia/culture poolish 3 stage fermentation process probably would have the best chance of success.

Have a nice time at wedding this weekend.  I will think about what I would like to try out until next week and maybe do another experiment for Friday, even though the results wonít be conclusive.  If I ever do find some kind of success with any kind of dough formula, I want it to be clear how I go about doing it, so if someone else wants to try the formula they wouldnít have problems trying to follow what I did.  I know this recent experiment is not consistent.

If I go forward with another type of preferment, I will start a new thread. 

I always seem to get over my head in wanting to try out new experiments, because I donít really have the skills to go forward by myself.  :-D

Thanks for your help.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #267 on: October 14, 2010, 12:20:43 PM »
Norma,

Thank you for clarifying what you want to do. However, I think it is important to understand that there are some important distinctions between making and using commercially-leavened preferments and naturally-leavened preferments. With commercially-leavened preferments, you can make them and use them at will as the need dictates. If you'd like, you can make and use them on a one-off basis. That is hard to do with naturally-leavened preferments. It is not particularly difficult to convert a given preferment to another form, such as converting your poolish preferment to a biga preferment of a sponge preferment, and certainly there is some math involved, but once that is done, the new preferment form ideally should be fed through multiple feedings and strengthened before using. Otherwise, it may not perform optimally or maybe not even close to optimally. If you try to make several different preferment forms in parallel, you in effect are creating multiple preferments that have to be kept going simultaneously, as by regularly feeding them in accordance with the hydration values unique to the particular preferment forms (e.g., a biga will be the stiffest in consistency, followed by a sponge and, finally, a poolish).

In my opinion, it is far better to work on one preferment form at a time and develop the strength of the preferment and determine what might be the best or optimum fermentation protocol for what you want to do. Once I learn how the preferment behaves and performs, and have decided on its acceptability for the intended purpose one way or another, then I would move on to the next preferment form and repeat the exercise. I think that doing one-off experiments with different naturally-leavened preferments will tell you a lot about dough hydration but that may not be enough. For example, you might find that you don't get the performance you were seeking and attribute the deficiency in performance to the preferment in question when the problem was really an execution problem (e.g., an insufficiently prepared preferment or an improper or incorrect fermentation protocol for that preferment in the context of the intended application).

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #268 on: October 14, 2010, 03:53:01 PM »
Peter,

I do understand there are differences from commercially-leavened preferments and naturally-leavened preferments and the naturally-leavened preferments can give anyone more problems in understanding them.  Examples, feeding schedule, strength of the starter, hydration, ambient room temperatures and type of starters.  I also can understand by having different types of naturally-leavened preferments that I would need to feed them differently and might not understand  where I had the problems with either execution or performance of the dough. 

If I can understand how to go about maintaining a sponge starter, I would like to try that next, just to be able to understand how a sponge works in a dough.  I donít know at this time if I will be able to successfully do this, but it is something I want to try if I can. 

On a side note about the two doughs I did make, I was watching the pH levels while the two doughs were room temperature fermenting and the levels went down on the KASL dough to 4.64 and pH levels on the Caputo dough went down to 4.67. There is some bubbling on the bottom of the doughs balls and few tiny bubbles on the top of the dough. I will post some pictures of the dough balls later. I did refrigerate the dough.  Hopefully the pH levels wonít drop to far until tomorrow.  I found it interesting that after the final dough was made the pH levels were down, then came up, and now have gone down again.  I can see why there is so much mystery in any dough made with a naturally-leavened starter.  Just by watching these pH levels, I can see there are changes in the dough, but donít know what to expect when the pie is finally baked. Visually I could usually see how a dough ferments, but it is interesting to be able to watch the numbers, even if it doesnít mean to much.  I will make another worksheet after the doughs are baked.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #269 on: October 14, 2010, 07:53:20 PM »
Pictures of the KASL dough ball and the Caputo dough ball made with the mixture/Ischia starter.  First picture KASL dough top, second picture Caputo dough ball top, third picture bottom of KASL dough ball, fourth picture is the bottom of the Caputo dough ball.  These dough balls are now cold fermenting in the refrigerator after the pH levels starting falling to much in my opinion  Both of these dough balls are very soft.

Norma

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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #270 on: October 15, 2010, 11:11:10 PM »
I was invited to Steveís home tonight to make pizza in his WFO.  I took both of the doughs along that I had made with the Ischia starter/mixture.  These pies baked in Steveís WFO were great in my opinion.  The beauty of the fire and heat sure make baking in a WFO fun.  The pizzas bake so fast, too.

Videos of both pies baked in Steveís WFO.

First video was Caputo Flour with Ischia starter/mixture



Second video was KASL Flour with Ischia starter/mixture.



Pictures below of both of the pies.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #271 on: October 15, 2010, 11:13:24 PM »
more pictures

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #272 on: October 15, 2010, 11:16:13 PM »
end of pictures

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #273 on: October 16, 2010, 08:37:22 AM »
Worksheet for the pies made with the Ischia/mixture starter.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #274 on: October 17, 2010, 12:07:32 PM »
These are the pH values and temperatures for the recent dough I mixed.  I used the formula at Reply #104 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg110725.html#msg110725 but used the Ischia/mixture starter in this dough.  The starter had been left out at room temperature since Monday evening.  The pH was taken before I mixed the starter into the final dough.

Norma
« Last Edit: October 17, 2010, 12:09:26 PM by norma427 »

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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #275 on: October 17, 2010, 12:57:34 PM »
While searching for something else, I found this article. I find this article interesting even if I donít understand all of it.  http://wpage.unina.it/giamauri/Materiale_vario/Coppola_pizza.pdf   I can see from this article there can be so much difference in the use of different starters, ferment times and how the doughs Rheological properties of leavened doughs all come into play.  Another thing I find interesting about this pdf. article is the leavening time can be the utmost importance while using sourdough fermentation in artisan pizza making. 

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #276 on: October 19, 2010, 09:27:05 PM »
The pizza was made today with the Ischia starter/mixture. Even with using a higher percentage of the mixture/starter that was left out at room temperature for 5 days, this pizza didnít taste much different than the other pizzas I made with the Ischia starter.  There wasnít any sour taste in the crust.   The pizza also looked very similar to my other pies.

Pictures below

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #277 on: October 19, 2010, 09:28:28 PM »
more pictures

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #278 on: October 19, 2010, 09:29:35 PM »
end of pictures

Norma

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #279 on: October 19, 2010, 09:58:34 PM »
LOVE the look Norma!!!

And thanks again for the "fragile" package...I can't help but to think of 'A Christmas Story' every-time that line pops to mind :D

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