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Author Topic: fairmont bagels, Montreal  (Read 8753 times)

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Offline widespreadpizza

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fairmont bagels, Montreal
« on: September 12, 2010, 11:22:49 AM »
Hey there all,  just wanted to let you all know that I have come up with a recipe to clone the famous fairmont sesame bagels.  My wife and had them for the first time this summer straight from the source and really really liked them.  They are not your super chewy oversized NY style bagel,  they are small and light,  and the sesame busts with flavor after toasting.  It is very easy to do if you have a wood oven and will probably turn out fine in a home oven on a stone. 
I would love it if someone else with a wood oven and experiene with fairmont bagels would give it a go and tell me how it worked for them,  and if anything needs tweaking.   Here are some pictures.  the first two are bagels right out of the oven in Montreal,  the second two are ones i made yesterday.  Let me know if you would like to try my recipie and procedure. -marc

Offline bicster

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2010, 03:28:21 PM »
id love to know the recipe/procedure.

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2010, 04:22:49 PM »
I'll second that request....hell, you know people would want it :D

Offline Neopolly

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2010, 08:37:56 PM »
Yours look better than the original.
I' m old enough to remember when bagels were small, thin, and delicious, and I bought them at the local bagel bakery , where they actually made them. 
 

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2010, 09:33:05 PM »
Hey guys,  thanks for the interest.  I will do my best here to give you a good explanation here,  although I am not the best at writing recipes. First thing,  It says right on their website two thing that I think are important.  They use unbleached unbromated flour,  I have been using King Aurthur special same as their bread,  but any unbleached bread flour should be fine.  My point is,  I do not think that they are using a super high gluten flour.  Second,  there is no salt used in their formula.  First time for that for a bread recipe for me.  Here are the percentages I have been working with.  Yeast is an optional level,  much like it is in pizza,  adjust it to fit your schedule as you see fit.  As long as the dough has doubled,  you are good to go.  I actually converted this to sourdough with a nice long rise,  and they were even better.   I have also added up to 10% flaxmeal and I just love knowing they are that much healthier,  and still excellent.  If you choose to do that,  just deduct it from the original flour weight.  You could also add whole wheat flour here.


flour 100%
water 51%
vegtable oil 2%
honey 4.5 %
non diastatic malt powder 2.5%
whole eggs 2.5%
yeast ADY/IDY .25% 
salt none%

Plug this stuff into the expanded dough calculator,  and use 100 grams as your dough ball weight,  then just decided how many you want to make.  Their bag says that the serving size is 70 grams,  but 100 grams of dough,  bakes out to 85-90 grams.  I like the size,  and I think that it is very close to the size of theirs,  change as you see fit.

Mix this all up as you would any other dough,  use a medium mix time for your machine,  same as you would for most pizza doughs.  I mix for about 10 minutes in my Bosch.  I do not think it is critical.

Let bulk ferment until doubled,  retard it in the fridge if need be,  I have done this in many different lengths of time from a few hours,  to overnight.  It seems very forgiving to me,  much more so than pizza or bread.  One thing to note in case you do not normally retard large batches of dough.  Itakes a long time for the fridge to slow the fermentation,  much longer than a pizza dough ball.

Once doubled,  get a wide pot of water boiling.  Add to it some malt powder and some honey,  a couple tablespoons of each,  this is your glue.  I am not 100% sure that this is what they put in there,  but its one or the other or both.  It doesn't matter to me because it works great.

Get a drying rack ready to land them on for a moment before dropping into your coating of choice.

Take the dough,  start making 100 gram pieces.  Be as gentle as you can on the dough,  but don't worry it will be OK either way.  Use both hands to form a rope of dough about 8 inches long,  as even as you can.  Be gentle,  but don't fret,  this part is nerve wracking until you see that is going to be OK.  Form the dough into a circle and join the ends into a nice seam.  This takes some practice.  If the seam is not good enough,  it may separate while boiling.  Work in batches of 3 or 4.  Boil on for 1 minute,  flipping in the middle.  Then pull them out and drain for 30 seconds.  They will look really ugly and wrong right now,  thats normal. Then coat with you seasoning of choice.  I have used flax, sesame,  and coarse salt so far.  It will look like you have too much on there,  until it springs in the oven,  and they will.  Put them straight onto a peel,  i do six or eight at a time.  What is great if the sesame seeds on the outside,  act as your flour or semolina that you would use to unload a pizza.  It works out great.  If they are sticking to the peel,  I would say that you need to drain them just a little longer.

So,  whatever oven you are going to use,  have it at about 400-450.  I use my wood oven like they do,  and its just wacky how these bake up with an evenly heated oven and just a small fire on the side.  I think a stone may work just as well,  but I think that I would start at 450 and see how that goes.  It seems hot,  but these are done in like 10 minutes,  pull them out when they look done.  Do not overcook,  you toast them anyways,  I like them crispy outside,  moist inside.  Take them out when you see fit,  and let them cool on a rack or whatever. 

I saved the best for last.  They freeze amazingly well!  Cut them in half when they are cool,  and put them in the freezer.  One long cycle in the toaster and they are perfect! 

I made 36 of these last time and have been giving them away to friends they are loving them.


Sorry for having so many words in my recipe,  but if you have any questions just ask away.  Please let me know how these work out for you,  I hope they work very well for me.  It is actually a really fun process once you get the hang of it,  my wife is the boiler/coater.  I should have showed you the crumb on these,  it is amazing.  Next time.  -marc







« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 09:39:43 PM by widespreadpizza »

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Offline scott r

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2010, 01:34:09 AM »
wow, what a great recipe!   I never thought I would want to add more baked goods that I make to my diet, but this one looks amazing!   I can't believe there is a bagel shop with a wood burning oven, thats just unreal.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2010, 10:32:27 AM »
non diastatic malt powder 2.5%

Marc,

The nondiastatic malt powder is not one of the ingredients in the list presented in the expanded dough calculating tool (http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html). Although the flour you mentioned is already malted, did you mean diastatic malt powder? If not, listing the actual weights of the ingredients you used should cure the problem. Or else, we can come up with a conversion factor.

Peter

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2010, 07:25:38 PM »
Peter,  thanks for addressing that.  what I have been using in actually form my local brew shop.  it is muntons amber dried malt extract.  it is listed on this page.  Its what was available to me at the time I wanted to work on this,  and does give the malty taste,  which is very light.  Now that i am looking at it,  I am not sure that it is non diastatic,  it may be diastatic?  -marc

Online Pete-zza

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2010, 07:51:01 PM »
Marc,

I think you left out the link to the Munton's product. However, the malt product that is often used to make bagels, both in the dough and in the water, is non-diastatic malt, as evidenced, for example, by the King Arthur bagel recipe at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/bagels-recipe. You will also note from that recipe that the quantity of non-diastatic malt is the same whether it is in dry or liquid form. On that basis, the non-diastatic malt syrup entry in the expanded dough calculating tool can be used with your recipe. However, if one were to be completely precise on this matter, the amounts would be different for the dry and liquid forms. For example, one teaspoon of the King Arthur non-diastatic malt powder, at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/non-diastatic-malt-powder-16-oz, weighs 2.67 grams, or 0.094 ounces. King Arthur sells the liquid form, at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/organic-barley-malt-syrup-16-oz, but no nutrition information is provided. However, I have the Eden brand of barley malt syrup and one teaspoon weighs 7 grams, or 0.25 ounces. The difference reflects that fact that the barley malt syrup contains a lot of water.

If you have the nutrition information for the Munton's product, it may be possible to analyze it to see if it is like the King Arthur product, which is perhaps more typical of the type of non-diastatic malt powder that most people would perhaps use.

Peter

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2010, 08:54:46 PM »
Peter whoops:

 
http://www.muntons.com/mmi/products/dried_extract.asp

Now that I thin kof it I ahve used the KA product in the past.  I would say it is a perfect suubstitute and quitepossibly the same thing.  Using dry would help to keep the hydration the same. -marc

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2010, 10:03:01 PM »
Marc,

I think the best bet for most of the members who want to practice your recipe is to use the King Arthur non-diastatic barley malt powder. I did a Google search and the only other source of the non-diastatic barley malt powder that I could find in small retail quantities is the product from Chef Rubber at http://www.shopchefrubber.com/product.php?cat=1586&page=2&productid=12269. Even Bob's Red Mill and Barry Farms, both of whom have broad product lines for additives, apparently do not carry non-diastatic barley malt powder. That perhaps helps explain why Mike and I did not include the dry form of non-diastatic barley malt in the expanded dough calculating tool. The alternative for members is to use the non-diastatic barley malt syrup such as sold by King Arthur or from Eden, at http://www.edenfoods.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=26_50&products_id=104050, or from some other source.

To give the members something concrete to work from, I ran your numbers through the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with a dough formulation for a dozen bagels, with each piece of bagel dough weighing 100 grams and corresponding to a single bagel. I used the non-diastatic barley malt syrup entry in the tool and corrected the output table and the volume measurements so that they apply to the non-diastatic barley malt powder form. I assumed IDY as the yeast. I did not use a bowl residue compensation although that option is available to our members if they want to use it. This is what I get:

King Arthur Bread ("Special") Flour (100%):
Water (51%):
IDY (0.25%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (2.5%):
Honey (4.5%):
Non-Diastatic Barley Malt Powder (2.5%):
Eggs, large (2.5%):
Total (163.25%):
Single Ball:
735.07 g  |  25.93 oz | 1.62 lbs
374.89 g  |  13.22 oz | 0.83 lbs
1.84 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.61 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
18.38 g | 0.65 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.05 tsp | 1.35 tbsp
33.08 g | 1.17 oz | 0.07 lbs | 4.73 tsp | 1.58 tbsp
18.38 g | 0.65 oz | 0.04 lbs | 6.9 tsp | 0.88 tbsp
18.38 g | 0.65 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.63 tsp | 2.3 tbsp
1200 g | 42.33 oz | 2.65 lbs | TF = N/A
100 g | 3.53 oz | 0.22 lbs
Note: Dough is for 12 dough pieces to make 12 bagels; no salt; no bowl residue compensation

If I can find how much water is in the non-diastatic barley malt syrup, perhaps I can come up with a dough formulation for that form also. However, if one chooses to use the same amount of that form of non-diastatic malt, which comports with the King Arthur bagel dough recipe, the dough formulation looks like this:

King Arthur Bread ("Special") Flour (100%):
Water (51%):
IDY (0.25%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (2.5%):
Honey (4.5%):
Non-Diastatic Barley Malt Syrup (2.5%):
Eggs, large (2.5%):
Total (163.25%):
Single Ball:
735.07 g  |  25.93 oz | 1.62 lbs
374.89 g  |  13.22 oz | 0.83 lbs
1.84 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.61 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
18.38 g | 0.65 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.05 tsp | 1.35 tbsp
33.08 g | 1.17 oz | 0.07 lbs | 4.73 tsp | 1.58 tbsp
18.38 g | 0.65 oz | 0.04 lbs | 2.63 tsp | 0.88 tbsp
18.38 g | 0.65 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.63 tsp | 1.21 tbsp
1200 g | 42.33 oz | 2.65 lbs | TF = N/A
100 g | 3.53 oz | 0.22 lbs
Note: Dough is for 12 dough pieces to make 12 bagels; no salt; no bowl residue compensation

Peter






Offline Williamgag

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2010, 10:23:22 PM »
wow didnt know that our bagel were as famous !!!!!!! they are available in the USA ?

Offline Williamgag

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2010, 10:28:23 PM »
they use all trump flour ... I live at 2 minutes walking from the place and its full of bags of that flour

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2010, 11:07:44 PM »
WG,  out of curiosity,  is the writing red or green on the bags,  that would be helpful to know.  Thanks for the info.  And no, at least wheree i am in NH  I have never seen them.  Are you a fan?  -marc

Offline Williamgag

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2010, 03:36:04 PM »
if I am a fan ? my life is based on them haha they're the most popular stuff here. the writing is red btw -William-

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Offline Williamgag

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2010, 03:41:00 PM »
btw the recipe written here is pretty good except that they arent boiled ...

Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2010, 06:07:09 PM »
WG,  red writing if I remember correctly means a bromated flour,  which I thought was out of the question in Canada.  Does it say bleached/unbleached  bromated?   or unbleached/bromated?   As far as boiling goes,  I think that I clearly remembered them being "dunked" in a thin water based solution.  Are you saying it was cold or that there was no dunk?  Please let me know.. Thanks.  -marc 

btw,  I made another 36 tonight  might post some pictures,  used some white whole wheat from KA as well.

Offline Williamgag

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2010, 09:55:32 PM »
they have a private importing company and I found out tonight that they have 2 different flours ... I asked the guy if it was 50/50 or something and he told me that he'Ll tell me one day :P the other flour seems like a bread flour from Israel. It's really weird, I did all the jewish grocery stores and I wasnt able to find it to see the protein content and everything

Offline Williamgag

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2010, 09:58:18 PM »
Its unbleached bromated

Offline Williamgag

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Re: fairmont bagels, Montreal
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2010, 10:08:09 PM »
try to order these ... they're almost as good as fairmount bagels, they are located at 100 meters and are their main rivals http://www.stviateurbagel.com/ pretty sure you can get them by order

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