Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough

[norma427]

more pictures

Norma

[norma427]

more pictures

Norma

[norma427]

end of pictures

Norma

[dellavecchia]

Now that is a picture perfect pie.

John

[norma427]

Now that is a picture perfect pie.

John

John,

Thanks for saying the 25 day milk kefir pizza was picture perfect.  I never would have thought any dough ball could be cold fermented for 25 days and still have enough yeast in the dough to leaven a pizza.  Somehow it must be something in milk kefir that keeps the dough from fermenting too fast.  I will have to do more experiments using milk kefir.

Norma

[norma427]

I called Cheryl again this morning, but only got her voice mail.  I did leave a message to call me back if she found out any information from Dutch Valley or about me getting samples of baker’s grade dried dairy whey or dried non-fat milk powder.  I guess with the holiday approaching, Cheryl might be busy. 

I wonder now if I should try scalding the non-fat milk powder I got from the Country Store, until I see if I can get some baker’s grade products.

I am also curious to know if anyone any where around the world has tried using milk kefir in a long fermented dough like I did.  I tried searching the web, but couldn’t find any information of someone using milk kefir for a long cold ferment in bread or pizza.

Norma

[norma427]

If anyone is interested this is a picture of how my milk kefir grains are growing.  This picture was taken last evening after the milk kefir grains were taken out of the milk kefir and then placed into a clear container and fed again.

Norma

[norma427]

This post is to note that I called Cheryl again this morning and spoke to her to see if she inquired if Dutch Valley carried baker’s grade dairy whey.  Cheryl said she had checked with Dutch Valley and they didn’t carry baker’s grade dairy whey.  I then talked to Cheryl again about my problems in trying to get more crust coloration in the formula I am using with the milk keifr poolish.  I told Cheryl although the formula with milk kefir poolish is working out to get a desired taste in the crust and oven spring, I was still having problems with coloration of the crust.  She never heard of using milk kefir to leaven a dough for pizza.  Cheryl said she has to contact someone else and since they are closed for the rest of this week, I probably would get a sample of 1 lb. baker’s grade of dairy whey sent out to me next week sometime.  I will post when a receive the sample of dairy whey.

When I do obtain some dairy whey, since Tom Lehmann suggested to add dairy whey in the 8-10% range to the formula, I wonder if that is where I should begin.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

When I do obtain some dairy whey, since Tom Lehmann suggested to add dairy whey in the 8-10% range to the formula, I wonder if that is where I should begin.

Norma,

I think I would tend to go with around 4% as we discussed before Tom voiced his opinion. Dried dairy whey can affect the crust and crumb structure so it might be better to try to keep that at a minimum by going lower on the whey. If that doesn't do the trick, or do it sufficiently, then maybe the amount of whey can be increased to something closer to what Tom recommended.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I think I would tend to go with around 4% as we discussed before Tom voiced his opinion. Dried dairy whey can affect the crust and crumb structure so it might be better to try to keep that at a minimum by going lower on the whey. If that doesn't do the trick, or do it sufficiently, then maybe the amount of whey can be increased to something closer to what Tom recommended.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your advise about the percent of dried dairy whey to try.

Norma

[norma427]

I was pleasantly surprised this afternoon to receive a shipment from Cheryl.  The samples included both the high heat Non-Fat Dry Milk and Diary Whey.  I didn’t expect to receive both samples.  These are the papers that came with the samples and pictures of the samples. 

Both of the samples do feel gritty.  I now wonder which sample to try first.  I would like to start another experiment on Friday, using one of these samples to see if I can get better coloration in the crust when using the higher amounts of milk kefir poolish.

Pictures below

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Peter,

I have a question to ask you before I start on the new experiment using dairy whey, to see if I can get better crust coloration using dairy whey, in this milk kefir Lehmann dough. I used the preferment calculating tool, to come up with a new formula.  I have increased the thickness factor and also the hydration, because in my normal preferment Lehmann dough I have been adding more water and have also increased the thickness factor, by just scaling my dough balls at a higher weight.  I have been adding more water to each batch of dough I make at market, because I now like a higher hydration dough, but since the formula for the preferment Lehmann dough was too hard to figure out without a calculator, the adding water additional water to the final mix seems to be working for me.

I now wonder since the preferment calculating tool doesn’t have any entry for dairy whey, how do I calculate the addition of 4% dairy whey?  Do I do the calculation by the total amount of flour or do I do the calculation for dairy whey of the flour in the final dough mix?

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Can you show me the dough formulation you want to use, using the preferment dough calculating tool but without the dried dairy whey? Also, is there anything on the packaging materials for the Hormel dried dairy whey that relates weight to volume?

In the final analysis, you want the whey to be used as a percent of total formula flour.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Can you show me the dough formulation you want to use, using the preferment dough calculating tool but without the dried dairy whey? Also, is there anything on the packaging materials for the Hormel dried dairy whey that relates weight to volume?

In the final analysis, you want the whey to be used as a percent of total formula flour.

Peter

Peter,

This is the dough formula I want to use for the next attempt.  The only articles with the packaging materials that came with the dairy whey, are what I posted before.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I used one of my little tricks in using the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html. I simply used the Sugar box to enter the 4% dried dairy value. That will product the correct amount of dried dairy whey to use by weight but the volume measurements will be wrong because the volume conversions for sugar are different than for dried dairy whey. That is why I asked you if the Hormel data included any weight/volume conversion. But, that aside, I have set forth below what the final dough formulation should look like based on the information you provided. You will see that I changed some of the wording of the dough formulation to conform to your particular situation, and I crossed out the volume data for the sugar entry. That means that you will have to weigh out the dried dairy whey.

Total Formula: Flour (100%): Water (63%): Morton's Kosher Salt (2.2%): Oil (1%): Sugar Hormel Dried Dairy Whey (4%): Total (170.2%): Preferment: Flour: Water: Total: Final Dough: Flour: Water: Morton's Kosher Salt: Preferment: Oil: Sugar Hormel Dried Dairy Whey: Total:

286.28 g  |  10.1 oz | 0.63 lbs 180.36 g  |  6.36 oz | 0.4 lbs 6.3 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.31 tsp | 0.44 tbsp 2.86 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.64 tsp | 0.21 tbsp 11.45 g | 0.4 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.87 tsp | 0.96 tbsp 487.26 g | 17.19 oz | 1.07 lbs | TF = 0.11165     85.89 g | 3.03 oz | 0.19 lbs 85.89 g | 3.03 oz | 0.19 lbs 171.77 g | 6.06 oz | 0.38 lbs   200.4 g | 7.07 oz | 0.44 lbs 94.47 g | 3.33 oz | 0.21 lbs 6.3 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.31 tsp | 0.44 tbsp 171.77 g | 6.06 oz | 0.38 lbs 2.86 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.64 tsp | 0.21 tbsp 11.45 g | 0.4 oz | 0.03 lbs  | 2.87 tsp | 0.96 tbsp 487.26 g | 17.19 oz | 1.07 lbs  | TF = 0.11165

Note: Dough is for a single 14" pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.11; poolish preferment represents 60% of the Total Formula Flour, and constitutes 50% water; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%; target finished dough weight = 16.93oz/480.06g

Now that you can see how I used the preferment dough calculating tool to incorporate the dried dairy whey, you should be able to use the same trick in your future experiments, including using the Hormel dry milk powder should you end up doing an experiment with that product also.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I used one of my little tricks in using the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html. I simply used the Sugar box to enter the 4% dried dairy value. That will product the correct amount of dried dairy whey to use by weight but the volume measurements will be wrong because the volume conversions for sugar are different than for dried dairy whey. That is why I asked you if the Hormel data included any weight/volume conversion. But, that aside, I have set forth below what the final dough formulation should look like based on the information you provided. You will see that I changed some of the wording of the dough formulation to conform to your particular situation, and I crossed out the volume data for the sugar entry. That means that you will have to weigh out the dried dairy whey.

Total Formula: Flour (100%): Water (63%): Morton's Kosher Salt (2.2%): Oil (1%): Sugar Hormel Dried Dairy Whey (4%): Total (170.2%): Preferment: Flour: Water: Total: Final Dough: Flour: Water: Morton's Kosher Salt: Preferment: Oil: Sugar Hormel Dried Dairy Whey: Total:

286.28 g  |  10.1 oz | 0.63 lbs 180.36 g  |  6.36 oz | 0.4 lbs 6.3 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.31 tsp | 0.44 tbsp 2.86 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.64 tsp | 0.21 tbsp 11.45 g | 0.4 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.87 tsp | 0.96 tbsp 487.26 g | 17.19 oz | 1.07 lbs | TF = 0.11165     85.89 g | 3.03 oz | 0.19 lbs 85.89 g | 3.03 oz | 0.19 lbs 171.77 g | 6.06 oz | 0.38 lbs   200.4 g | 7.07 oz | 0.44 lbs 94.47 g | 3.33 oz | 0.21 lbs 6.3 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.31 tsp | 0.44 tbsp 171.77 g | 6.06 oz | 0.38 lbs 2.86 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.64 tsp | 0.21 tbsp 11.45 g | 0.4 oz | 0.03 lbs  | 2.87 tsp | 0.96 tbsp 487.26 g | 17.19 oz | 1.07 lbs  | TF = 0.11165

Note: Dough is for a single 14" pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.11; poolish preferment represents 60% of the Total Formula Flour, and constitutes 50% water; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%; target finished dough weight = 16.93oz/480.06g

Now that you can see how I used the preferment dough calculating tool to incorporate the dried dairy whey, you should be able to use the same trick in your future experiments, including using the Hormel dry milk powder should you end up doing an experiment with that product also.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for using one of your tricks in helping me understand how to use the preferment calculating tool to use dairy whey or dry milk powder if I need it.  I will know how to proceed from now on.  I appreciate you setting-forth the formula.

Hopefully the dairy whey will make some kind of improvement in the coloration of the crust.

I wanted to note in this post that my milk kefir grains are producing too much milk kefir. I don’t know what to do with the milk kefir anymore.  I did give some to plants to see what will happen to them.  I now am going to try and dry some more of the milk kefir grains, to either refrigerate or freeze.  This is a picture of the milk kefir grains, that I am deciding to do something else with.  Since the milk kefir grains are getting larger and I guess splitting, the milk kefir is ready in less than 1/2 half day.  I also wanted to note in this post that the milk kefir poolish I am using in the Sicilian thread that was over 4 weeks old, is fermenting the dough slower than fresh milk kefir I have used in a poolish before.  My guess now is that using fresh milk kefir is better, unless I get a better taste in the crust from a longer fermentation time.

Norma

[norma427]

I didn’t think about it yesterday, to take the pH of the dough, when I made this milk kefir dough with added dairy whey.  I removed the dough from the refrigerator this morning and now have taken the pH.  The pH is 5.47.  I don’t know if there will be any difference in the pH of this dough over the next few days, than my other doughs without dairy whey.

Picture of pH reading this morning.

Norma

[norma427]

This post is to note this evening the pH of the milk kefir dough mixed on Friday is 5.26.

Hopefully Tuesday I will get to try out this dough to see if there is better crust coloration, since adding dairy whey.  It is supposed to start snowing on Tuesday, so I am not sure at this time if I will need to freeze this dough or be able to bake this dough into a pizza.

Since I didn't use any honey in this dough, it should tell if dairy whey will brown the crust better.

Norma