Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated

[norma427]

i have noticed that you wrote here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg123366.html#msg123366
that you used Farine Ganoro flour, what a coincidence i just made batch with 30/70 this flour and bf i will see tomarrow the result.
how was the pizza with it norma ?

here is the link with flour kind i bought http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13217.msg130259.html#msg130259

Michael,

The pizza made with the flour was good, but it was just an experiment, using the leftover poolish.  Best of luck with your pizza using the same flour. 

Norma

[Jackie Tran]

Made some bread last night and this morning with the hybrid starter and despite using a high hydration dough and letting these ferment out well, I got less of a tang than normal.

20% young hybrid starter, 1st loaf was fermented at RT 75F for ~7.5 hours.   2nd loaf was fermented for 5 hours at RT, then cold fermented overnight for 11 hours, then 2 hours at RT and baked.

I did not notice an increase in the flavor of the overnight CF bread, but it did have a much better crumb structure therefore texture.  Both breads were good.  

My pizzas have been mediocre lately so it was nice to have good bread to eat.

1st pic is the crumb shot from same day dough
others are from the overnight loaf.  

Michael, I think you will like either the IDY starter or the hybrid starter.   You can get great crumb structure and some flavor without any of the sourness.   The crumb was fantastic, soft, moist, and milky.  The crust shattered.  The bottom crust was bit thick though.

Chau

[Pizza01]

look great chau. what was the hydration ratio ?
i am sure i going to love it. and if i get bread half from the result you gained i will be more then satisfied.
what a great brumb. i am guessing that you use littel bit idy, let say 0.1% ? or i am wrong?

[Jackie Tran]

Michael, the flour used is a HG flour that is bleached and bromated.   HG flours tend to soak up quite a bit more water than a typically BF.   The hydration ratio is 82% plus 20% starter (that is 20% of the weight of flour).   My starter is 50/50 AP flour and water.   If you recalculate the starter hydration into the dough hydration, the final hydration comes to 83.5%, so i would say about 84% HR for this bread.

You are both wrong and right in guessing that I used IDY for this bread.    No I did not add any additional IDY to make the bread.   All the yeast is provided by the HYBRID starter.   If you recall, I made this starter using IDY and a spoon of Ischia starter.   So the bread does have IDY in it from the use of the hybrid starter but none extra was added.   

Chau

[Pizza01]

pshhhh for young starters thats realy amazing ovenspring without additionel idy into it.

[Jackie Tran]

pshhhh for young starters thats realy amazing ovenspring without additionel idy into it.

Michael, as I mentioned earlier, the majority of the yeast in the HYBRID starter is IDY.  Adding an additional small amount of IDY won't likely improve ovenspring but will slightly speed up the fermentation.  Ovenspring is caused by many factors not just the use of a starter, whether young or old.   Peter made a nice list of many of the variables affecting oven spring here.  Reply #515

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg104559/topicseen.html#msg104559

I would also add to that list, environmental factors specifically altitude.  

Chau

[Pete-zza]

I would also add to that list, environmental factors specifically altitude.  

chau,

You are right. I missed that one. So, I went back to my post and added it.

Thanks.

Peter

[Essen1]

Chau,

Nice looking crumb.

Was that done with a contaminated starter? If so, a contaminated starter is a health risk, just keep that in mind!

In your contamination experiment, have you had any results of severe contamination meaning bad smell, a dark brown or even pink, reddish color? Did your starters exhibit any foul, old or other strange odors?

If they did, I suggest you discard all of it and start fresh.


EDIT: I forgot to mention that IF your starters did show those signs, then you succeed with your experiment.

[Jackie Tran]

Chau,

Nice looking crumb.

Was that done with a contaminated starter? If so, a contaminated starter is a health risk, just keep that in mind!

In your contamination experiment, have you had any results of severe contamination meaning bad smell, a dark brown or even pink, reddish color? Did your starters exhibit any foul, old or other strange odors?

If they did, I suggest you discard all of it and start fresh.


EDIT: I forgot to mention that IF your starters did show those signs, then you succeed with your experiment.

Mike, I think I may have misled you with the term "contaminated".  The hybrid starter is NOT contaminated with mold, fungus, or anything funky like that.  It is just a regular healthy starter that I am using.  I don't think anyone with as much common sense as myself would use a discolored or foul smelling starter, at least I hope not.  The purpose of this experiment was to see if I could contaminate one starter with another starter.   To see if one strain of yeast will overtake the other if introduced into the same medium.  If you read back from post one, you'll see that I mixed in some ischia starter into an IDY starter to see if it would either take over the starter or get diluted out over time.   The idea is that because an IDY starter (or poolish, really the same thing) is flavorless, if the ischia overtakes it, the IDY starter would become increasing strong in flavor.  If the IDY yeast overtakes the ischia, then the ischia flavors will eventually become diluted out.   And from the results I am getting I would say that I have  created a Hybrid (IDY/ischia) starter whereby both strains are coexisting in harmony.  I don't fully understand the science behind it, but I can report what I am tasting in the raw starters and resulting test breads.

The premise of the experiment was to test the theory that local yeast strains (from flour or air) will overcome all starters eventually and that it is impossible to keep distinct and separate strains of yeast side by side.  As of now, I don't buy into this theory.....at least not yet.

Chau

[Essen1]

Chau,

Thanks for your reply and explanation what you're trying to do with your experiment.

First off, the term 'contaminating' is indeed misleading. You haven't misled me per se, but potentially other members, especially those who are not familiar with starters, sponges, poolishes, etc.

What you have done in your experiment would probably qualify for the term of "Fusion" not "Contamination". 

Contamination is explained as:

1
a : to soil, stain, corrupt, or infect by contact or association <bacteria contaminated the wound> b : to make inferior or impure by admixture <iron contaminated with phosphorus>
2
: to make unfit for use by the introduction of unwholesome or undesirable elements

contaminate, taint, pollute, defile mean to make impure or unclean. contaminate implies intrusion of or contact with dirt or foulness from an outside source <water contaminated by industrial wastes>. taint stresses the loss of purity or cleanliness that follows contamination <tainted meat> . pollute, sometimes interchangeable with contaminate, distinctively may imply that the process which begins with contamination is complete and that what was pure or clean has been made foul, poisoned, or filthy <the polluted waters of the river>. defile implies befouling of what could or should have been kept clean and pure or held sacred and commonly suggests violation or desecration 

You mentioned...

I started out by making a commercially yeasted (IDY) starter. I made a poolish with 50/50 water and AP flour with a bit of IDY. I then let it become active within 6-8 hours, dumped out half and fed it with 50/50 water/AP flour. I did this several times until I got an active starter after several hours of feeding. I tasted the IDY starter at it's peak and it had ZERO flavor. No hint of any sourness whatsoever.

No starter should contain any commercial yeast to begin with, whatsoever. But you said you made a poolish. 

A starter is only made from flour and water. A poolish is basically the french equivalent of a sponge, not a starter. It's wet with an equal amount of water and flour and usually contains a small amount of commercial yeast.

A starter is a mix of wild yeast, flour, water and bacteria and is fed on a regular basis. I'm saying this just to clarify for the members who commented on your experiment as to not confuse them. Especially new members.

I hope that helps to explain your experiment a bit better for other members, including myself. I'm not trying to ride your derriere but I have been corrected numerous times if I got terms wrong, explained things the wrong way, etc... for the benefit of others, which I have always appreciated since I learned from the corrections myself.

[Jackie Tran]

Thanks Mike, I do tend to be a bit lackadasical when it comes to terminology.  Yes it did start out as an IDY poolish but I continued feeding it and maintaining it as if it were a starter.   I wanted to differentiate it from a classical poolish that is made and used right away, so the term starter seem natural.  I didn't realize that a starter is exclusive to natural yeast only, but you are right.  Does it count as a starter now since it has a bit of ischia in it?   

Which reminds me, I do need to crack the Suas book I just got more often. 

Chau

[Jet_deck]

Chau,

Thanks for your reply and explanation what you're trying to do with your experiment.

First off, the term 'contaminating' is indeed misleading.

Chau, I think most readers of this post have the brain action required to grasp the intent of the experiment.  Although some are held to a higher standard, I do not feel that this post warrants a direct quote from Mirriam Webster.  Your simple example is well recieved by us simple folks, so keep up the good work.   

[Pete-zza]

Semantics has long been an issue with starters and preferments. Moreover, in some cases, the only distinction between a starter and a preferment might be the amount used. That was a line that was essentially drawn by pizzanapoletana (Marco) when he introduced the Neapolitan style with natural leavening to our members several years ago. I admittedly am a stickler for nomenclature and have become even more so as time has progressed. It's in my DNA but it also helps me keep things clear in my mind. Having been exposed to the writings of Professor Calvel and Didier Rosada has helped me a lot in this respect. But what is most important in my opinion is to state the ingredients in the dough recipe or experiment being conducted, their quantities, and how and when they are used. Usually I can translate that into something I can relate to and understand, and even manipulate, even if the nomenclature is incorrect or non-traditional. I am also content to remind our members from time to time when they misuse a classical term or procedure. To me, that is part of education of our members.

Peter

[Essen1]

Chau, I think most readers of this post have the brain action required to grasp the intent of the experiment.  Although some are held to a higher standard, I do not feel that this post warrants a direct quote from Mirriam Webster.  Your simple example is well recieved by us simple folks, so keep up the good work.   

JD,

As always I've read your contribution with great interest. To insinuate that my brain action is lacking was icing on the cake, so thanks for that. The personal insult is appreciated.

But allow me comment on my previous post for a second, if I may. First off, a guy like Chau, who's come a long way with his pizza making and who's great-looking pizze and enthusiasm has landed him an interview spot on Slice, who gives advice to other members on their pizza endeavors should be familiar with certain terminologies and semantics. Especially when you have guys like Michael from Israel participating.

Given the vast and diverse membership on here, with people taking part from all over the world, I believe it is important to use the correct terms as to avoid confusion. Perhaps you should get a little brain action going there for yourself, buddy, and think just a tad before mouthing off in the manner you did.

And speaking of lower standards, I'm sorry to say that yours already show.

[Pete-zza]

I would ask the members to confine their remarks to the subject matter at hand rather than to each other on a personal level.

Peter

[Essen1]

I would ask the members to confine their remarks to the subject matter at hand rather than to each other on a personal level.

Peter

Peter,

I'm all for a civilized conversation & discussion but if a member here suggest I'm imbecile, you bet I'll have something to say about it.

Either way, that's the end for me.

[Jackie Tran]

Hey what the heck is going on in here guys?!?    JK it's all good.  

So I started the room temp CY and IDY poolish experiment a few days ago.   The idea was to keep them fed and going at room temps to see how long it would take before a local wild yeast would show up and set up shop, either from the flour used or out of the air.  I figured that since the active (bubbly)IDY and CY didn't have any flavor that I could detect any new flavors introduced.   Well this experiment didn't last more than a day.  

I wanted to nail down a feeding schedule of once to twice a day, maybe just at night or 6am/6pm.  Well after a day or so of sitting around at room temps and overfermenting, both started developing quite a bit of acid in them, the CY poolish more so than the IDY poolish.  At this point I would not be able to accurately taste any new flavors introduced by a local wild strain, so it's pointless.  

I was surprised at first by the acid production but then again was reminded of an experiment I did last year where I did produce a sourdough pizza crust by cold fermenting an ADY yeasted dough for 4 days.  


Chau

[Pizza01]

i still havent started the polish for starter, it has been a long week at work. i am going to make them tomarrow this way when they will be ready after 12-16 to be feded i will have the time to do it over th weekend. 

[Pizza01]

well i made them both.
made polish last night with littel bit cy after 14 hours fed it and after 2 hours it became active then divided into 2 jars fed both of them and puted in one of them 1 tbs of my 3 months old starters and puted them in the fridge.
i want to make pizza from the hybrid starer with room temp rise.
any recommendations?...

[Jackie Tran]

Michael, glad to see you finally picking up on this experiment.   When you added a tablespoon of your 3 month old starter to the CY poolish, was the starter active?  Or had it been sitting in the fridge for awhile.   If it wasn't active (bubbly), you may want to refeed it and allow it to become active again.  Taste it with the tip of your tongue to make sure you can taste the acids and then add it to your newly fed hybrid CY starter.  So prior to adding the active starter, you want to discard and refeed your hybrid starter.   This way the active starter has some fresh food source to stabilize itself in the new environment. 

Hopefully you will have a hybrid starter to use after a couple of feedings that will give you a much less sour tasting bread.   If you want, you can also make a loaf with the active CY poolish to compare the results and see what you like better.   

Good luck and do post up your results.
Chau