Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated

[Pizza01]

yes it wasent active.
now both of them in the fridge today i took out the hybrid straters because i wanted to see how they will behave.
after 2 hour they were very active, so... i tasted them the taste wasent sour just littel bit. i am going to find a good recipe and after planing i will bake loaf from them. for now i dont know what to do. i am looking for 8-12 hour recipe that i dont end up with sourness again. 

so chau do you think i need to do it again?  after the old starters will be active fully?

[Jackie Tran]

Yes do it again, just like I posted.  Make sure both are active, you may have to take the old starter out and feed it a few times first to get it going especially if you haven't fed it in a while.  Then both are active, add 1 Tablespoon of it into the hybrid CY starter. 

The reason the hybrid CY starter tastes a little sour now is b/c you mix mostly acids from the mature starter into it.  The acids won't really help propagate that strain of yeast.  An active sample will.

To make a 8-12 hour recipe, the amount of starter you need will depend on your kitchen temp.  From what I can remember, your kitchen temp is on the cool side right?  If so, I would use 25-30% of the flour weight in starter.   That means take the gram weight of the flour in your recipe and multiple by 0.25 - 0.3 to get the grams you will need in starter. 

An easier method is just to use the preferment calculator found here...
http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html

Good luck
Chau

[Pizza01]

the ones i tasted was the one without the old strter in it ( i diden tasted the other one i dont like sour).
my kithen temp now is hoter then before at day time its between 22-25cl. thank you chau.

[Jackie Tran]

the ones i tasted was the one without the old strter in it ( i diden tasted the other one i dont like sour).
my kithen temp now is hoter then before at day time its between 22-25cl. thank you chau.

Michael, if that is the case then I would just make a loaf with the CY poolish starter or even the Hybrid CY starter without feeding it more active old starter and see how you like the taste of the loaf. 

Chau

[Pizza01]

An easier method is just to use the preferment calculator found here...
http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html

Good luck
Chau

i got stuck during the part of prefermet i diden understand it.

and another thing that dient make sense using this was 0.05% cy from 561gram flour is not 28 gram like it said.
what did i did wrong?

[Jackie Tran]

Michael, 300 gm is a pretty small loaf.  Some ppl use that to make 1 pizza.  

Put "None" for the CY.  For desired preferment amount, put in 25% or 30%.   For the next box, the preferment's percentage of water, put in 50%.  This means that your CY starter is 50% water.  

Michael, you should get next to zero sourness from this CY starter.  If you are getting some sourness, that means that it's a bit on the mature side.  To get it young again, just discard 75% of it, refeed and let it become active.  As soon as it is able to float in water, use it right away.  At this point it is very young and should give you little to no sourness.  If you are getting sourness, then you are using it pass this point.  REMEMBER - discard, refeed, as soon as it passes the float test, use it then. Chau

[Pizza01]

yes i know i puted my 3 pizzas recipie. i will remember that chau.

[Pizza01]

An easier method is just to use the preferment calculator found here...
http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html

Good luck
Chau

this caculator is very very cool. thank you chau for showing me how to use it.

[Jackie Tran]

You're welcome Michael.  I agree the dough tools are very cool indeed.   I made many pizzas and loaves of bread doing calculations by hand before I used the tools myself.   For some reason I was intimidated to use the tools but boy do they make life easier.   And thanks to members Peter and Mike (Boy Hits Car) for putting the tools together.   Definitely one of the great assets of the forum.

Chau

[Pizza01]

yes. they made wonderfull thing.

ok so i took out from the fridge the old starters and the new hybrid jar, fed them until they were active after discard 75% from them both. the hybrid starter after one feediing were active the old jar after tow ( i feed them after 2 weeks after pouring the hooch) then took clean jar puted the hybrid jar and 1 tbs from the old starters feed them and puted them into the fridge.
then took the hybrid jar when it pass the float test and used the Preferment Pizza Dough Calculating Tool.
and knead it by hand, i hope it will be ready to bake in 24 hours ( i dont have the time to bake it before its almost night timr here and i am tired after making pizzas today) now its in plastic conteiner.
here is the formula.

Final Dough:
Flour:    385.92 g | 13.61 oz | 0.85 lbs
Water:    277.38 g | 9.78 oz | 0.61 lbs
Salt:            8.04 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.44 tsp | 0.48 tbsp
Preferment: 32.16 g | 1.13 oz | 0.07 lbs                                  <<<  active hybrid starters.
Total:    703.5 g | 24.81 oz | 1.55 lbs  | TF = N/A

i knead it this way (but he is doing it a lot better then me)    
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvdtUR-XTG0

[Jackie Tran]

Michael where are you fermenting the dough?  On the counter or in the fridge?  What temperature are you fermenting at?   Are you fermenting the dough at one constant temperature or are you doing it partly on the counter and part in the fridge?

Also how did you determine that 24 hours is the correct time to ferment using 8% (of the flour weight) in starter?    What signs are you using to determine when the dough is ready to be baked? 

Chau

[Pizza01]

Michael where are you fermenting the dough?  On the counter or in the fridge?  What temperature are you fermenting at?   Are you fermenting the dough at one constant temperature or are you doing it partly on the counter and part in the fridge?

Also how did you determine that 24 hours is the correct time to ferment using 8% (of the flour weight) in starter?    What signs are you using to determine when the dough is ready to be baked?  

Chau

on the counter temp is 20cl at night and up to 23-25cl at daytime, on costant not in the fridge. i figure that if 25-30% starter is for 8 hours then 8% maybe will be ok for 24 hours. i dident have plan i just wanted to started already or else i wouldent do any bread soon and i wanted to make. i geuss i planned to leave it on the counter and after 4-5 hours to do some folds and when i will see that the dough is at 1755 rise to make the loaf shape and to put it in the fermentation basket.
my fridge now has 4 jars of starters in it.
2 of them are 3 months old one fed with ap and one with bf, both of them fed every 2 weeks.
and now tow more, the hybrid one and the same one added with one tbs of old starters.

[Jackie Tran]

Michael, at those temps (20c = 68f, 23-25c = 73-77f), I'm pretty sure you will get a sour loaf if you let the dough go to 24hours.  

So yes, it's a good idea to watch the dough and see but this is how we learn.  From experimenting and trial and error.

As an example, here is a loaf of bread I made using 3% active ischia starter and a room temp (75F = 24c)ferment of 23h.  It was sour tasting, but remember that ischia will be a stronger tasting starter than your hybrid starters.  So at 3% using your hybrid starters, 24h will give a much less sour loaf.  At 8% starter and 24h, at your current temp 20-25c, you will likely have a sour loaf.  

Reply #78
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12538.60.html

So if the dough looks ready before the 24h is up, then go ahead and bake it.  

The other tricky part is gluten development (relative to hydration ratio).   Here's something important to think about.   If you don't have the right amount or enough gluten built into the dough, it will look like it's not rising much or that it's taking a long time to rise.   You will you naturally wait for the dough to rise meanwhile it is reaching overfermentation and you wouldn't know it.   Maybe not overfermentation but it will be further along in it's fermenation that it seems IF you are looking just at the volume of rise as an indicator.   For an example of this if you make 2 loaves with the same amount of starter and build gluten in one and not the other.  The one that has gluten built into it will look ready to bake sooner b/c it is rising and expanding.  While the other will be ready at the same time but will not rise nearly as much.  Imagine if you didn't have the first loaf for comparison, you might let the 2nd loaf rise long to try to get a bigger volume.  But if you did that you would end up with a more sour loaf b/c you let it ferment too long.  Does that make sense?  

This is why it is also important to know your starters and how they behave.  Also important to taste the starters for level of acidity.   Also important to smell the dough as it is proofing especially near the end.  Learn to smell what a Sourdough loaf will smell like.  

Michael, at 8% active starter (depending on the specific starter, hydration ratio, and strength of flour used) and your current fermentation temp, I am estimating your dough should be ready to bake in the 12-15 hour range.  
Let me know how the bread turns out.

By the way, your pizzas are looking good.
Chau

[Pizza01]

thank you i wasent planing to post the pizzas photos here it was a mistake. 

that all make sense very much. i am so happy that you wrote it word like that is what teach me.

i would more than glad to make 8 hour recipe but the problem is time with work and all.

maybe tommorow i will be back sooner from work if i do i would bake it right a way.

now after reading your post chau i am thing of puting into the fridge.

[Jackie Tran]

Good idea.  That will slow it down until you have time to watch it.  If you cold ferment it till tomorrow, it may just need a few hours on the counter before being ready, but I don't know for sure.  Depends, you'll just have to watch it. 

Chau

[Pizza01]

Good idea.  That will slow it down until you have time to watch it.  If you cold ferment it till tomorrow, it may just need a few hours on the counter before being ready, but I don't know for sure.  Depends, you'll just have to watch it. 

Chau

i did some fold and puted it into the fridge. last time i tried sour dough bread i was waiting for it to rise... i never knew that maybe its ready to bake. if it will be in the fridge and then couple of hours on the counter its still going to be sour? (man that sourness doesent leave me...)

[Jackie Tran]

i did some fold and puted it into the fridge. last time i tried sour dough bread i was waiting for it to rise... i never knew that maybe its ready to bake. if it will be in the fridge and then couple of hours on the counter its still going to be sour? (man that sourness doesent leave me...)

Michael, I can not accurately predict if this loaf will be sour or not or how sour it will be if there is some sourness.  I can only guess.  

From what I know from doing these bread experiments and from the information that you have provided me, I will make a guess that it will be about 25% of the sourness that you had before using the oringinal starter that you made.  

If you want ZERO sourness, then make a loaf with a CY or commercial (ADY/IDY) yeast poolish.  That is easy to do and you can do that any time.  Just make it like you made the CY poolish/starter before.    Most people seem to like a little sourness/tang just not too much.  

IF you have built some gluten strength into the dough (which I believe you have), and this dough doesn't sit out at room temps in excess of 12 hours total, the extra cold fermentation should not add much sourness at all.   So just figure out how many hours it has been at room temps already plus the few that you will let it sit out after the cold fermentation and make sure that number doesn't exceed 12 hours, then I think you will be okay.  

Sorry if this sounds confusing.  I am just sharing with you what I do in my kitchen, which is not necessarily going to work for everyone all the time.  

Chau

[Pizza01]

thank you my friend. you are helping me a lot. i appreciate it very much.
it has been sitting outside no more then 5 hours. the 300-400 hundred slap and fold i did like in the video from youtube thats in the link has made the gluten and window pan very good, now i can deal with 73% dough very well because i am with dough all the time, my wife is tired from that she says the kitchen is filled with flour.
we have a plant on the counter somtimes its green (when she is there) and somtimes its white (when i am there).

[Pizza01]

just got back from work the dough was at the fridge 24 hours, i took it out reshaped it and puted it in fermentetion basket in warm place. in a hour i will bake it and see what will happen. the smell isent sour.

[Jackie Tran]

just got back from work the dough was at the fridge 24 hours, i took it out reshaped it and puted it in fermentetion basket in warm place. in a hour i will bake it and see what will happen. the smell isent sour.

Michael, if the dough doesn't smell sour then you are probably okay to let it proof 2 hours before baking which may give a better result.  Are you covering the loaf for the firat 20m of baking?