Santos Mixer

[Bill/CDMX]

I'm in the market for a dough mixer and have seen the interesting posts on this forum about the DLX and the Santos. The difference in price is significant, but not as bad I thought. I found the Santos at this site for $854 including shipping:

http://www.suitesupply.com/Santos-Dough-Mixer-Kneader-10-Quarts.EUR-18N.01.htm

So, I'm trying to figure out how to get the word out that Father's Day is coming up and Daddy needs a new mixer 

Bill/SFNM

[scott r]

Bill, I just bought the electrolux, and it is much better than my Kitchen aid.  I just had the opportunity to chat with a famous Neapolitan style pizza chef, and like Marco he has said that the best of the best is the fork mixer. 

[Bill/CDMX]

Scott,

Well, it looks like I'll be getting the Santos. The son just said he would kick in a chunk of change (he loves pizza too, bless his heart) for Father's Day. I guess the quid pro quo is that he gets to eat pizza more often!

I have seen big fork mixers in use in Europe. They are fun to watch and seem to have a very natural action to bring the best out of the dough.

Bill/SFNM

[Randy]

I would think you would want to check how small a batch it would make before you buy it.  May be too big for home use.  A ggod mixer would be used for so many other things than pizza, like cake cookies and more.  Also keep in mind storage space and moving this bad boy around.  I am sure it is a great mixer but it may have limited use.

Scott, you didn't like the Electrolux?

Randy

[Pete-zza]

Randy,

You raise an excellent point. Over 99% of the time I make single dough balls. Even an 18-inch NY style dough only weighs around 25 ounces or so--a bit over 1 1/2 pounds. So I always look at the dough batch aspects of a machine to see if it can handle a single dough ball. Looking at the Santos unit, it can make 11 pounds of dough in 15 minutes. That's heavy duty stuff. After looking at the Santos specs, I couldn't find anything about the minimum dough batch size. I similarly came to the conclusion that there was a minimum batch size for the DLX that is far greater than my needs most of the time.

You also make a good point about the footprint of the Santos machine. My KitchenAid unit has dimensions of roughly 14" H x 9" W x 13" D, and the Santos unit makes that look a litle bit like a toy.

I'm sure that the Santos unit is a great product and, in Sante Fe Bill's case, it may make a lot of sense since he is an inveterate bread maker. Who knows, maybe he can start a local bread business or become a commissary for fresh or frozen dough balls .

Peter

[Bill/CDMX]

I would think you would want to check how small a batch it would make before you buy it.  May be too big for home use. Randy

Good point, Randy. My preference is to make fairly large batches of bread and pizza dough. After fermenting, I form into balls or loaves and freeze what I don't use right away. The resulting breads and pizzas made with my old natural starter and commercial yeast don't seem to be harmed by freezing; in fact, sometimes I think there might be a slight improvement. The night before baking, I put some frozen dough in the refrigerator and the next morning it is thawed and ready for proofing. It remains to be seen if the doughs I hope to make with Marco's cultures will tolerate this technique.

My son already ordered the Santos for me, so I guess I'll learn pretty quickly how suitable it is for my particular use.

Bill/SFNM

[Bill/CDMX]

Who knows, maybe he can start a local bread business or become a commissary for fresh or frozen dough balls .

Let's see. Maybe I could get $2 per ball. My cost including materials, packaging, labor, insurance, and other overhead might be $1. So if I sell about 900 balls I could break even. If I can sell 10,000 balls, I can go to Naples for month or two and eat at Da Michele every day. Yes, this is starting to look good. Too bad the domain name www.dough-to-go.com is already taken.   

Bill/SFNM

[scott r]

Randy,
After experimenting with the deluxe I do like it a lot, don't get me wrong. I have been doing 1/2 liter batches in it successfully, but I do have a feeling that it does a better job at kneading recipes based on 1 liter of water or more. 

I am just one of those sickos that always wants to have the best tools (that I can afford) for anything having to do with my life's passions.  Right after I bought my electrolux I saw Marcos post about the fork mixer.  Last week I had a chance to hang out with Roberto Caporuscio and he made me an amazing Neapolitan pizza. 

Roberto told me that his impression was that even the best professional spiral mixer could not make a dough with the proper texture, and that a fork mixer made all the difference.  He mentioned that they were very popular in the best bakeries and Pizzerias in Europe, and that there were mini models.  I wonder if there is something smaller than the Santos?

[Randy]

Now that you bought it, I will have to tell the truth.
I am pizza sauce red with envy.

Randy
Take pictures and a video if you can.

[Les]

I would think you would want to check how small a batch it would make before you buy it.  May be too big for home use.  A ggod mixer would be used for so many other things than pizza, like cake cookies and more.  Also keep in mind storage space and moving this bad boy around.  I am sure it is a great mixer but it may have limited use.

Scott, you didn't like the Electrolux?

Randy

I didn't want to start a new thread to ask this, and I think I know the answer, but I suppose using my KA food processor to knead is too rough on the dough? 

If so I'm considering the Electrolux, but like Pete I usually just make one pizza at at time and I'm worried about a machine that's too big (though I do make as many as four at time on occasion).  Electrolux's eight quart bowl scares me because a 6 quart KA I tried out was too big, but I wonder if the Electrolux works differently and so will be okay.  I'd value your opinion Scott or anyone who knows.

[Randy]

Les I am not sure but I think a food procesor will make excelant pizza dough.  I know Steve uses it for the thin crust.  If no one answers I will ask around.  What does the owners amnual say?

Randy

[scott r]

Les, just last weekend I did a bunch of tests on batch sizes and attachment options for the electrolux.  One cool feature of the electrolux is that it has the roller and scraper mechanism (check out the video on Jeff Varasano's website) and a dough hook.  You can use the dough hook instead of the roller.  I have found that I always need to use the scraper.  

Now, I am trying to approximate the gentle action of the fork mixers, and I think that the roller and scraper is closest to that.  The dough hook and scraper combination works the dough more, and is not nearly as kind to the dough.  I have found that for any batches that use more than roughly 1.5  liters of water I need to use the dough hook and keep my mixing times shorter.  Otherwise the dough can almost spill out of the mixer as it climbs up the roller.   You can obviously do much bigger batches if you want to , but I think you will need to switch to the dough hook.
Now as far as the minimum size goes, I have had no problem doing batches based on 500 grams of water, and these have been 63-65% hydration doughs.  I have a feeling you could probably do smaller batches if you really wanted to, but this is the smallest I have gone.

So, I would highly recommend the Electrolux, and I don't think you should worry about making small batches in it.  One dough ball might be too small, but I am guessing that it would probably be fine making two balls for 16 inch pizzas.   I would only worry about big batches that you want to use the gentle mixing action of the roller and scraper for.

One other thing that I have not figured out how to do with this mixer is a batch of dough with the roller and scraper that is less than 60% hydration.  By the time I get to that point the dough ball seems to stick to the roller, and I can't get any more flour in it. I have a feeling you could probably do it with the dough hook.  Luckily I prefer high hydration doughs, but I guess this could be a problem with some recipes.

Jeff, feel free to tell me if I am an idiot here.  I think you have had much more experience with this thing, and have probably read about it on other newsgroups.  Honestly, I have not even opened the manual, so I could be wrong about some of this stuff.

One more side note, I was having trouble with my caputo doughs being a little tough, and I thought it might be the mixer.  Today I let my oven get all the way up to 900 degrees, and the pizza turned out to have the perfect texture.  I also used the a16 recipe at a 62 percent hydration, and that recipe calls for oil, so I guess that might be what solved the problem, but I have a feeling it was the higher temperature or a combination of that and the oil.  Before this I was making them more in the 750-800 range. Anyhow, the mixer is obviously not the problem.

[Randy]

Karen posted this food procesor pizza recipe on bakers circle and she is one fine baker.  This recipe uses part whole wheat but can be used I would think with all High gluten flour.

For my money, the fastest (and best) pizza dough is made in the food processor. After lots of experiments, I adapted this one from the California Pizza Kitchen cookbook using KAF Sir Lancelot High Gluten Flour for texture and a little whole wheat flour and a touch of honey. I've found that pizza dough made with AP flour lacks the chewy open-holed texture that makes that thin, crusty pizza we all love so much. The food processor method is from The Best Bread Ever by Charles VanOver.





• 1 pkg. instant yeast
• 1 cup cool water
• 3 cups flour (2 1/2 c. high gluten, 1/2 c. whole wheat)
• 2 T honey
• 1 tsp salt
• 2 T olive oil




Place all dry ingredients in bowl of food processor (at least a 7-cup model for this amount of dough) fitted with the steel blade and pulse briefly to combine. Add honey and oil to flour and pulse briefly to combine. With machine running, add all but 2 T water in a slow steady stream just until dough ball forms, which should be no more than 30 seconds. Stop the machine at this point and if dough seems too dry, add the remaining water. Continue mixing for no more than an additional 30 seconds. Don't mix too long, as the heat generated by the machine can overheat the dough (temperature of the dough after mixing/kneading should be between 75 and 80 degrees. Dough should be slightly tacky. Turn out onto floured surface and knead briefly till you can push your finger into the dough ball and the hole doesn't immediately fill in (should only be a moment as most of the kneading is done in the machine). Place dough in a lightly greased bowl and allow to sit at room temperature for 2 1/2 to 3 hours. The dough will not double at this point. Refrigerate the dough for at least 4 and up to 36 hours. The flavor and texture develop nicely. This recipe makes four individual pizzas or two larger ones. Dough can also be frozen in a zip lock bag. I usually divide the dough into four pieces after the refrigeration, which I then freeze so I always have dough on hand. It only takes about an hour to defrost dough on the counter.

[Les]

Les I am not sure but I think a food procesor will make excelant pizza dough.  I know Steve uses it for the thin crust.  If no one answers I will ask around.  What does the owners amnual say?

Randy

Thanks Randy for Karen's recipe . . . thanks Scott for the report.   In case anyone is interested, here -- http://www.epinions.com/content_123440303748 -- is a very long and involved critique of the Electrolux including how it works to make various things.

I'll tell you why I asked about the food processor, which I have been using.  In fact I got rid of my new big KA a couple of months ago because I thought my KA food processor did a better job.

But since I've been absent from this sight, you guys have gotten into the preferment thing (I borrowed some for myself from a local baker), higher moisture doughs, and autolysing.  I read somebody's concern (either Pete or Steve) about being careful about over-kneading and being gentle with the dough, and that he kneaded it on the lowest speed of his mixer to be careful.

Well, if you've seen how a food processor does it, it is hardly gently.  It REALLY sends the dough around the bowl, sometimes even breaking apart bits of the dough for a while before recombining them again.  Looks violent to me, but it sure is fast.  And it develops the gluten so much I have been able to use a mixture of 3 parts KA flour, 2 parts semolina flour, 1 part fine corn meal, and a very small amount of oil,  at 50% moisture and still roll it out paper thin for a chewy moister version of the cracker type crust.

Anyway because I've been trying to get the tender, holey dough we all seem to love, that's why I started worrying my food processor might be too hard on the dough and so thinking about using a mixer again (I do realize I need a hotter oven . . . working on that too).

[Randy]

Rolling this kind of dough is not quite proper.  Try hand streching Les.

[Pete-zza]

Les,

Good to have you back at the forum and participating again. I wondered how you made out with your countertop Baker's Pride oven.

I sometimes use a food processor (Cuisinart 14-cup) to make dough for a NY style and I found that I can get good results if I use only the pulse feature, and maybe a 20-second whirl at full speed at the end. One of the problems with using a food processor is that it has a high friction heat factor (mine is around 35-40 degrees F) that heats up the dough beyond the temperature (around 80-85 degrees F) that is considered optimal for dough fermentation. Even using the pulse feature, the dough temperature can still rise rather quickly. So, to compensate for the frictional heat, I calculate the water temperature I will need to get the 80-85 degrees F finished dough temperature. In summer, with high ambient room temperatures, the water I use can be quite cold. Yeast isn't particularly fond of cold water, but it only takes seconds for the water in the dough to heat up to the temperature that yeast requires.

The other thing I tell people about using a food processor to make pizza dough is to put the flour into the bowl first and then gradually add the water. Otherwise, the dough will start up being soupy and can gum up the blade assembly by getting into the crevices between the blade and the post it sits on, making a real mess of things.

Peter

[Les]

Rolling this kind of dough is not quite proper.  Try hand streching Les.

By "this kind of dough" I'm assuming you mean the high moisture, airy, tender stuff I'm lusting after.  If that's it, I agree, I'd never allow a roller pin to touch it.  But the KA/semolina/corn meal 50% moisture dough I make is virtually impossible to stretch as thin as I do by hand.  In total it only weighs 225 grams, and I roll it out to 15 inches in diameter.  In order to compensate for the semolina and corn meal, I have to over develop the gluten (I usually add a teaspoon of vital wheat gluten to help since I'm using KA bread flour), which gives it an overly snap-back character.

[Les]

Les,

Good to have you back at the forum and participating again. I wondered how you made out with your countertop Baker's Pride oven.

Thanks Peter.  I love the oven for the kind of pizza I make, but now I'm interested in learning new recipes.

I sometimes use a food processor (Cuisinart 14-cup) to make dough for a NY style and I found that I can get good results if I use only the pulse feature, and maybe a 20-second whirl at full speed at the end. One of the problems with using a food processor is that it has a high friction heat factor (mine is around 35-40 degrees F) that heats up the dough beyond the temperature (around 80-85 degrees F) that is considered optimal for dough fermentation.

What I'm wondering about is using the food processor with the high moisture, preferment techniques you guys have been talking about.  I tried using preferment for the first time last weekend and misjudged because it ended up way too wet.  BTW, I let the dough sit for six hours in a large airtight container in the sun (about 75 degrees average all day) and it over fermented.

Anyway, do you see any problem letting the food processor handle the kneading with the higher moisture, preferment dough?  The dough seems so delicate! 

Also, how long do you knead in the food processor?  With the dough I described to Randy I usually end up doing about 10 minutes total, which usually gets me to about 85° temperature-wise.  But I've worried I have been over working it, and like I said, that seems way too intense for the higher moisture doughs.

[Pete-zza]

Les,

It is possible to use a food processor with a dough leavened with a preferment. In fact, I did just this recently with a Lehmann NY style dough, and reported on the results at Reply #175 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.160.html. The preferment for that particular experiment was dough-like in texture but I see no reason why you couldn't use a more liquid preferment so long as you are careful with the kneading so as no to generate excessive heat in the dough. Commercial yeast will die above 140 degrees F. Even wild yeast, which seems to be more delicate than commercial yeast, should tolerate normal temperatures produced in a food processor operated in the manner previously described. When you use a preferment to leaven a dough, and especially a more liquid one, you will in most cases have to make an adjustment to the amount of flour to compensate for the added liquid from the preferment. Otherwise, the dough can be too wet. This is one of the reasons why professional bakers who routinely use preferments try to get their preferments to have the same hydration as the doughs into which the preferments are injected. That way, any adjustments are minor.

As for your multi-flour dough that you have been making in your food processor, it seems to me that 10 minutes total knead time is too much, even for a relatively low hydration dough and especially if you are using the normal operating speed of the processor. If you did that with a normal hydration dough, as I did not too long ago just to see what would happen, the excessive heat build up can kill the yeast and totally destroy the gluten structure. The dough will, in effect, be dead and not be capable of resuscitation, as by adding more yeast to try to revive it. I suspect in your case the stiffness of the dough prevented excessive gluten damage.

I have had little experience with the type of dough you have been making, but you might want to try using a shorter knead time. On the other hand, if you are perfectly satisfied with the soft, thin crusts you have been getting, you may find no need to change your procedures.

Peter

[tjacks88]

I have the new Kitchenaid Pro600 575 watt with the spiral dough hook - the new spiral hook really works great, much better than the older "C" hook, especially on smaller amounts of dough.