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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Bakers' Percent??
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2011, 06:55:10 AM »
CIZ28,

I will be out of town for about a week so I won't be in a position to answer your questions in as thorough and complete a manner as I normally would. However, I can tell you that the dough formulation I posted should work. At this point, I was trying only to get a baker's percent version of your original recipe. Once you see how a dough made using that formulation works, we can then try to address any issues you have with the dough or pizza made from it. Other members may also be able to assist you while I am away.

Peter

Offline CIZ28

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Re: Bakers' Percent??
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2011, 04:56:10 PM »
Hi Pete, maybe your're back by now?

Last weekend I made the dough with less water, maybe around 52% hydration and I didn't like it. It was very hard to roll and had to sit out a good while to be able to stretch. It came crispy but a little too hard/chewy on the inside. I think I'll stick with 56-58%. What would lowering the oil do? How about raising salt and sugar? BTW, 1 1/2 TSP of yeast did alot better than the full pack, although the dough did get some bubbles in the refrigerator. I will try 1 1/4 TSP next.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 01:46:35 AM by CIZ28 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Bakers' Percent??
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2011, 08:44:07 PM »
CIZ28,

I'll be back home soon. But I will try to hit a couple of points now.

Did you mean 62% instead of 52%?

Reducing the oil will make the crumb a bit less tender, but not overly so. You might try 1-2% oil to see if that helps. That amount of oil is in line with a NY style pizza. The sugar also contributes to crust tenderness, so you can reduce or eliminate the sugar also if you'd like.

Peter


Offline CIZ28

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Re: Bakers' Percent??
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2011, 01:43:50 AM »
Nah I lowered it alot just to see the effect that it would have on the dough. I have measured out the flour of the original recipe to being a total of 25 oz. and 14 ounces water, so a 56% hydration. My cup seems to get 5 oz. per cup on the scale. Do you mean the less oil or sugar will reduce softness inside or outside? My whole thing is to get a medium-soft dough that is crispy outside and soft inside.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 01:47:47 AM by CIZ28 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Bakers' Percent??
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2011, 03:52:09 PM »
CIZ28,

It is somewhat counterintuitive but if you are looking for a crispy bottom crust you need a fair amount of hydration--a lot more than 52% or 56%. At those hydration levels, the dough will not rise as much and much of the bottom heat will pass through the crust and work on the sauce, cheese and toppings rather than on the bottom crust. At higher hydration values, the dough will rise much more and act more like an insulator than a conductor. As a result, more heat will be directed to the bottom of the crust and make it drier and crispier. You can read more about the physics of these phenomena at Reply 981 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3944.msg70562.html#msg70562 and also at Reply 96 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg74667.html#msg74667.

I might add that oil in the dough also helps improve its volume because of the way that the oil coats the gluten strands. Leaving it out altogether will make for a drier crumb but too much of it will result in an overly tender crumb. Sugar in the dough also add to the tenderness of the crumb, as previously mentioned. Using both a lot of oil and a lot of sugar will to a degree yield a softer top crust also. A good example of a high-oil, high-sugar pizza is a Papa John's pizza. You can see examples of my clones of the PJ pizzas in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.0.html, where you will see many discussions of the nature of the finished crumb. In your case, to get a crispier top crust, you may find it necessary to lift your pizza off of the stone toward the end of the bake to a higher oven rack position, for about a minute or so, or until you achieve the desired top crust color and crispiness without overcooking the cheese and toppings.

Peter

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Offline CIZ28

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Re: Bakers' Percent??
« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2011, 03:28:24 AM »
Hi Pete,

Last weekend I made two doughs. One was based on the original recipe and one had more salt and sugar but half the oil. The dough with the changes didn't rise as much, was tough to work with, and had a harder crumb. The original recipe was better in all ways. I think I will stick with around 3.5%-4% oil. They both came crispy. 56-58 percent water also seems to be the sweet spot. I also don't have a stone, I bake them on oiled pizza trays. My dough has been getting bubbles in sealed freezer bags, any solutions for that?

My oven supposedly got fixed today and I will be experimenting more this weekend.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Bakers' Percent??
« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2011, 09:37:34 AM »
CIZ28,

Would you mind posting the complete dough recipes you used for the last two doughs, preferably in baker's percent format if that is what you used? That's the only way I can fully grasp what you are doing?

I had been assuming all along that you were using a pizza stone. Using a tray can make a significant difference in the bake, so can you either describe in great detail the tray you are using (e.g., make/brand, material, color, perforated/nonperforated, non-stick/anodized, etc.) or, alternatively, post a photo or a link to the type of tray you are using?

Peter

Offline CIZ28

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Re: Bakers' Percent??
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2011, 11:13:43 PM »
The original recipe is already on the first page, the one I call the "original." The second was like this:

Flour (100%)    
Water (56%)   
Salt (2.3%)    
Oil (2%)       
Sugar (.8%)    
      
Yeast was 1 1/4 TSP for 2 doughs. They have been getting bubbles in the refrigerator in the sealed freezer bags though, not sure what that is. The pan is a standard pizzeria pizza tray lightly oiled. I can't find a pizza stone big enough to accomodate a 16" pizza and still have room for overlap when you're sliding it on with a peel. You'd have to get it on there perfect somehow and I don't wanna make small pizzas, so for now it's tray I guess lol.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Bakers' Percent??
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2011, 11:25:21 PM »
CIZ28,

Here is a link to pizza trays and pans: http://www.pizzatools.com/Pizza_Pans_%26_Trays/30857/subgrouping.htm. Can you tell me which one, if any, is like the one you are using?

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Bakers' Percent??
« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2011, 11:29:36 PM »
CIZ28,

I forgot to ask you how much flour by weight you used with the 1 1/4 teaspoon of yeast. And can you tell me the temperature of the water you used for the bulk of the water and if you measured the temperature of the finished dough and, if so, what was that temperature?

Peter
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 11:35:06 PM by Pete-zza »

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Offline CIZ28

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Re: Bakers' Percent??
« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2011, 01:32:12 AM »
http://www.pizzatools.com/Baking_Trays/30866/subgrouping.htm The standard aluminum might be it or even a standard serving tray, really not sure.

The flour is 25 oz. still and the water was 110*, I did not take the temperature of the finished dough.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 01:34:51 AM by CIZ28 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Bakers' Percent??
« Reply #31 on: July 13, 2011, 07:07:23 PM »
CIZ28,

I am not a proponent of using a raw aluminum pan to bake pizzas. A raw aluminum pan is light in color and reflects too much of the oven heat rather than absorbing it to bake the pizza. Also, the pan has to get up to a certain temperature before the pizza can start baking. This often results in a reduced oven spring. The performance of an aluminum pan can be improved by seasoning it, but to get it to the proper point in a home setting can take a long time and many, many bakes. Using oil in the pan as you have been doing will help develop more bottom crust color and crispiness but it is not an optimum solution in my opinion. I favor use of a pizza stone for most pizzas. But if I had no option but to use a pan, I would use a dark pan, either a well seasoned one or an anodized one. I recently saw a Sbarro pizza operator use a pan to bake their NY style pizzas in their Marsal deck oven. Toward the end of the bake, the pizza was slid out of the pan onto the oven deck. No doubt that was necessary to get a more crispy bottom crust with more color. When the gal making the pizza pulled the pan out of the oven, I saw that it was a heavily seasoned pan. You can use a similar approach as the Sbarro worker used by starting your pizza on your pan and as soon as it sets up, slide the pizza off of the pan onto an oven rack. You might shift the pizza from one oven rack position to another to get the proper bottom and top bake conditions.

I estimate that you last used around 0.67% ADY. If you are in a part of the country where it is warm this time of year, that is still a lot of yeast in my opinion. Also, if you used around 110 degrees F water for the bulk of the formula water (the part of the formula water not used to rehydrate the ADY), then I can see how that might have been the cause of the bubbling in the dough that you experienced. The only water that should be at around 110 degrees F is the water used to rehydrate the ADY. Otherwise, you run the risk of the finished dough temperature being too high and causing the dough to start to ferment too quickly. Using the proper water temperature and 0.67% ADY might safely get you out to one day of cold fermentation, and possibly two if your refrigerator is on the cold side, but beyond that I would use less yeast this time of year if it is warm where you live.

I still believe that 56% hydration is too low. I would rather use a higher hydration (around 60%) and shuffle the pizza off of your pan onto one or more oven rack positions as discussed above. If you want a softer crumb, you can use a fair amount of sugar or other sweetener and oil.

Peter

Offline CIZ28

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Re: Bakers' Percent??
« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2011, 01:56:42 AM »
The pizza actually comes very nice on the pan. It is a 25 y/o dark colored pan that I coat with olive oil. I will probably look into a stone that could fit a 16" pizza with some overlap and a peel. I made a pizza with 60% hydration this weekend and it came good, definitely easier to stretch right outta the refrigerator. I also made the original recipe (56%) to compare and prefered it over the other but it was harder to stretch.

If sugar can make the crumb more tender, can it also make the crust less crispy? Also, doesn't salt add to the crispyness? I'm not sure I understand the effects of water on dough being soft or crispy when baked yet, but your links say more water will make a crispier crust yet most thin and crispy crusts seem to call for less water. My goal is crispy bottom and edge with a soft inside that's a little thicker than regular NY style. From what I understand though sugar isn't even necessary to do any softening and just helps with browning, especially when you have enough oil. Any insight on this all?
« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 02:04:57 AM by CIZ28 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Bakers' Percent??
« Reply #33 on: July 20, 2011, 09:18:47 AM »
CIZ28,

People often think that any problem with a pizza can be solved by changing or tweaking the dough recipe when, in fact, the problem lies elsewhere, as in the medium used to bake the pizza (e.g., stone, screen, pan, etc.) and/or the oven and oven configuration and bake protocol. To give you an example of what I am talking about, some time ago I thought that it would be nice to come up with a version of the basic Lehmann NY style pizza that could be baked in a pan. That meant not having to use a stone, which I normally used, or having to heat up the stone to high temperatures, especially in the often unbearable summer months in Texas. In my case, I intentionally decided to use a dark anodized cutter pan, which is a wonderful pan that I purchased from PizzaTools.com. That pan also can be used to make other types of pizzas, such as a Greek style pizza (more on this below), a crispy cracker-style pizza, and even a shallow Chicago deep-dish style pizza and possibly an American style pizza. So, adding a NY style pizza to that list would have been a nice thing to be able to do.  

As matters turned out, I was not happy with the results. The crust flavor was fine but the texture and external characteristics, including degree of crispiness, were not. I gave considerable thought to how I might fix the problem but the changes to the dough formulation that I concluded might have worked were such that they would have converted the Lehmann dough formulation to some other style. So, I did not pursue the matter further. However, eventually I was able to modify the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation to be used in a pan--again a cutter pan--to make a Greek style pizza. I modified the Lehmann NY style dough formulation a bit (but kept the high hydration), increased the thickness factor to a value greater than for a typical NY style, and I used oil in the pan to allow the bottom of the crust to "fry" during baking. I also allowed the skin to proof in the pan before dressing and baking in order to give the finished pizza a taller crust with a soft interior and increased crispiness. The final results differed materially from a NY style even though the formulations were quite similar. The recipe I used has gone on to become one of the most popular Greek style recipes on the forum. I don't know if what you are looking for is a Greek style pizza, but baked on a flat pan, but you can read about the modified Lehmann NY style dough formulation I used and the finished results I achieved at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.msg27482.html#msg27482. If that formulation doesn't do it for you or take you in the direction you want to go, then you might want to look at other styles of pizzas that can be baked on or in a pan. Or, you can just continue experimenting until you hit upon the desired final product.

To answer some of your other questions, yes, hydration does play a role in the nature of the finished crust, including the degree of crispiness. A good example of this is the type of crust as shown in Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg49138.html#msg49138. As you will note from the dough formulation given there, the hydration was a paltry 36%, quite possibly the lowest hydration value I have ever used to make a pizza. You will also note the addition of sugar and oil. However, the pizza crust was extremely thin and the pizza was pre-baked (again, using my trusty cutter pan) before dressing and finishing the bake. The results were good because there was a proper balance and combination between the dough formulation, baking medium and oven protocol.

With respect to your question about the sugar, sugar will not become a significant factor in the tenderness of the crust until you get to fairly high levels, typically 4% or more. This is an area where I have done extensive testing, mainly in my efforts to reverse engineer and clone a basic Papa John's pizza. You can see several examples of how high sugar levels, and also high oil levels (I used around 7% oil for the PJ clones), can affect crust and crumb characteristic at the PJ clone thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58195.html#msg58195. I have not tried using my cutter pan for that style (I used a pizza screen) but I understand that Papa John's is migrating away from pizza screens to perforated dark anodized disks. I can't say that PJs will have to change its dough formulation or oven temperatures and bake times to work properly with the new disks, but they are possibilities. Again, everything has to work together to produce the desired end results.

With respect to your question about the salt, I do not believe that it is a factor, or a material one, in affecting crust crispiness. I read a lot of stuff about salt and other ingredients and I do not recall reading that salt and crust crispiness are closely or directly interrelated. See, for example, the King Arthur piece on salt at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/salt.html and the article on salt at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8764.msg75936.html#msg75936.

I look forward to the next step on your journey to achieve pizza nirvana.

Peter

« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 12:23:49 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline CIZ28

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Re: Bakers' Percent??
« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2011, 05:28:30 PM »
I have to say though Pete, that the pizzas come very nice, crisp, and tastey on the baking pan. I also wanted to say that I recently switched to 1/4 TSP IDY for a full day fermentation instead of ADY. It was pretty much perfect and I used 110* water to mix it all. I was thinking about trying fresh yeast to do the same, any amount recommendations?

As far as hydration, salt, and sugar, my friends who work at different pizzerias both tell me that for 50 LBS of bread flour that 14 quarts of warm water (56%) and about 4 cups of oil (about 3.8%) are used. So, I try to follow that in my recipes also just on a small scale. One place adds 2 1/2 cups salt and 1 1/2 cups sugar and the other 2 cups salt and no sugar, both use fresh yeast. Both crusts are definitely good and somewhat similar, they are also both baked in similar Bakers Pride deck ovens, one has stone slabs and one has bricks though. I always thought that the salt and sugar dough, which I hear is often hard to stretch, had a slightly better taste and good crispyness. The salt-only seems a little less flavorful with a possibly crunchier crust. I've been told it's very easy to stretch, but they also use pans opposed to the trays of the other place. I just ponder the actual need for sugar and what amounts of salt are really necessary sometimes.

I've also learned the mixing methods of both. For the salt and sugar dough all of the ingredients except the flour are combined and mixed for about 30 seconds then the flour is added for a total mix time of 6-8 minutes. The salt-only dough has all of the ingredients besides the flour mixed with half of the water for about 10 minutes, then the flour and other half of the water is added and gets mixed for 8-10 minutes. Odd how there are so many different ways to do these things!
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 05:41:38 PM by CIZ28 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Bakers' Percent??
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2011, 06:38:54 PM »
CIZ28,

If you are happy with your results and the methods you have been using, far be it for me to deter or dissuade you from what you are doing. So, having tried to answer all of your questions as best I can, I am not sure that I can add much more at this point to what I have already said. You should just continue to work on your dough formulation and dough preparation and management methods until you are satisfied with the results. However, I can tell you that if you are using 1/4 teaspoon of IDY and want to use a comparable amount of fresh yeast, you would use three times the weight of the IDY. By my calculation, 1/4 teaspoon of IDY converts to 2.26 grams of fresh yeast.

As far as what your pizzeria friends are doing, I have a few comments. First, when using a fair amount of oil in a dough, as one of your friends is doing, my practice is to lower the hydration of the dough from its rated absorption value by an amount about equal to the percent of oil used. That is because the oil also has a "wetting" effect on the dough. So, for example, if the bread flour I am using has a rated absorption value of 62% and I want to use oil at 3.8%, I would use a hydration value of 62-3.8 = 58.2%. I used this calculation methodology extensively when I made my Papa John's clone doughs. Many pizzerias use lower hydration values than those of us on the forum, so that might account for the 56% hydration value that your pizzeria friends are using.

My second observation on what your friends are doing in their pizzerias, especially if you are trying to do what they are doing but in a home setting, is that a dough intended for a commercial setting with a commercial oven does not perform in the same manner in a typical home grade oven. The reverse is also true. This facet of pizza making has been discussed a few times on the forum, including in the following threads: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8343.msg71966.html#msg71966 and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8706.msg75405.html#msg75405.

This thread started out with a request to convert your dough recipe into baker's percent format. I believe that that objective has been met, and you now have a scale to be able to modify your dough formulations. At this point, I'd like to suggest that you hit the "reset" button and re-frame your issues and problems based on what you are now doing. You might even start a new thread in the Ask the Dough Doctor board so that you can also get Tom Lehmann's wisdom. Just be sure to lay everything out in great detail, from start to finish, including the dough formulation that you would like to use, so as to minimize multiple follow-up questions.

Good luck.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Bakers' Percent??
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2011, 06:43:31 PM »
I've also learned the mixing methods of both. For the salt and sugar dough all of the ingredients except the flour are combined and mixed for about 30 seconds then the flour is added for a total mix time of 6-8 minutes. The salt-only dough has all of the ingredients besides the flour mixed with half of the water for about 10 minutes, then the flour and other half of the water is added and gets mixed for 8-10 minutes. Odd how there are so many different ways to do these things!

CIZ28,

I was posting as you were editing your last post. Can you tell me how the fresh yeast is incorporated into the processes used by your pizzeria friends?

Peter

Offline CIZ28

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Re: Bakers' Percent??
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2011, 07:13:50 PM »
In the salt/sugar dough it's just mixed vigorously for about 30 seconds before the flour is added. The salt-only dough is mixed with the mixer running for 10-30 minutes, then the rest of the water and all of the flour is added. They both use the same water and oil levels. The salt/sugar guy learned in Italy and the salt-only guy learned in NJ ironically lol.

Would 2.2 grams be about 3/4 of an ounce?

Thanks again for your help this far Pete.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Bakers' Percent??
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2011, 08:18:28 PM »
CIZ28,

To be sure I understand, are you saying that for the salt/sugar dough, the yeast is mixed with the salt and sugar in the water for 30 seconds, and that for the salt-only dough, the salt and yeast are mixed in the water for 10-30 minutes (do you mean 10-30 seconds?)?

2.26 grams of fresh yeast is 2.26/28.35 = 0.08 oz.

Peter

Offline CIZ28

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Re: Bakers' Percent??
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2011, 08:21:38 PM »
You are correct. Actual pizzerias really vary and don't do things quite traditionally or the way home pizza makers do that's for sure lol. The salt/sugar dough gets rolled and put away asap and the salt-only sits out to rise in the pans for a few hours before it hits the refrigerator also.

OK, so that's just a little less than an ounce. We'll see what happens I guess!
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 08:23:20 PM by CIZ28 »
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