Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes

[Pete-zza]

Based on comments I have read on the forum, especially those from new members who are looking for a "good" NY style dough recipe, I have sensed that it might be useful to have a "roadmap" to help such persons zero in on a Lehmann recipe to try out.

As regular readers of the Lehmann thread know, I have made many versions and adaptations of the basic Lehmann NY style dough recipe to fit several possible applications in a home environment. The principal focus has been on the 16-inch size, which is very typical of the classic NY street pizza, but recipes are available for just about all common pizza sizes, from 9-inch all the way up to 18-inches. (There is even a formulation for a 30-inch size for those with the wherewithal to make that size.) The basic Lehmann dough recipe is a real workhorse, and can be adapted in many ways to use different flours (from all-purpose flour to high-gluten flour), different hydration percents (from 60-67 %, although I prefer 63%), and different machines to make the dough, including stand mixers, food processors and bread machines. Hand kneading is also an option for smaller size pizzas. The Lehmann recipe can even be modified, if one chooses, to make use of preferments (starters), autolyse (rest periods), and room temperature fermentation rather than cold fermentation (refrigeration) that is standard practice with the Lehmann dough recipes. I have even made "mini" pizzas (2 1/2 ") using the Lehmann dough.

In the roadmap below, I have used a chronological approach to listing the recipes that have been posted at the Lehmann thread, starting at page 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.0.html. However, in order to make more effective use of the roadmap, in the summaries of the recipes I have presented I have highlighted the pizza sizes since it is usually pizza size that one selects before anything else. A point to keep in mind is that a recipe for a 16-inch pizza size can also generally be used to make two 12-inch pizzas of the same thickness as the 16-inch size (or the recipe can be cut in half to make a single 12-inch pizza). This makes the recipes for the 16-inch size especially versatile since it allows one to make a 16-inch pizza on a big stone, tiles or a 16-inch pizza screen, or 12-inch pizzas on a smaller stone or screen.

In the summaries, I have intentionally omitted references in most cases to the ingredients that are present in all the recipes, such as yeast (IDY) and oil. Also, unless otherwise indicated, the thickness factors for all the recipes are 0.10, which is typical of the standard NY style pizza (anything greater than 0.10 will produce a slightly thicker crust). All doughs made from the recipes are subjected to cold fermentation (refrigeration), unless otherwise indicated.

In order to reach a particular reply (post), all that is necessary is to click either on the Reply number or the link appended to the particular entry.

Users of this roadmap may also want to be aware of a tool (called the Lehmann Pizza Dough Calculating Tool) that was developed by member Boy Hits Car (Mike) to use to calculate the ingredients and their amounts to make any size and number (up to 99) of dough balls based on the basic Lehmann dough formulation. The tool is an online tool hosted on the forum and can be accessed at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html. Additional details on the tool and how it is used are available at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3477.new.html#new.

My intention is to keep the roadmap current as further adaptations of the Lehmann dough recipes evolve.

                                                           Pete-zza's Lehmann Roadmap

First post, page 1 of the Lehmann thread: The basic Lehmann NY style dough recipe for 16-inch size, as adapted for home use from the commercial Lehmann NY style dough recipe: King Arthur Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour (KASL), 65% hydration, stand mixer. (Note that the basic recipe was subsequently changed to lower the amount of yeast used, even though the results using the higher amount of yeast were very good.)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.0.html

Reply # 9, page 1: 16-inch, KASL, 67% hydration, stand mixer. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5353.html#msg5353

Reply # 19, page 1 and top of page 2: 16-inch, KASL, 60% hydration, stand mixer. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5395.html#msg5395

Reply # 29, page 2: 14-inch, high-gluten flour, 62% hydration, recipe can be practiced on any machine (this post also has a tutorial on how to design pizzas). http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5431.html#msg5431

Reply # 31, page 2: 14-inch, Giusto brand high-gluten flour, 62% hydration, autolyse, food processor. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5442.html#msg5442

Reply # 51, page 3: 16-inch, Giusto brand high-gluten flour, 60% hydration, 0.105 thickness factor, bread machine. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5486.html#msg5486

Reply # 60, page 4: Canadave's "Lehmann-inspired" recipe: Two 16-inch pizzas, 65% hydration, stand mixer. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5585.html#msg5585

Reply # 65, page 4: 16-inch, King Arthur bread flour, vital wheat gluten, 63% hydration, food processor. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5635.html#msg5635

Reply # 67, page 4: 16-inch, same as Reply # 65 but using all-purpose flour, recipe can be practiced on any machine. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5638.html#msg5638

Reply # 68, page 4: 12-inch, KASL, 63% hydration, hand kneading. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5674.html#msg5674

Reply # 75, page 4: 9-inch, KA bread flour, vital wheat gluten, hand kneading, for toaster oven application. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg6394.html#msg6394

Reply # 82, page 5: 16-inch, KA bread flour, vital wheat gluten, sugar added, food processor. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg6541.html#msg6541

Reply # 86, page 5: 16-inch, KASL, 63% hydration, 0.105 thickness factor, recipe can be practiced on any machine. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg7407.html#msg7407

Reply # 105, page 6: 18-inch, high-gluten flour, 63% hydration, 0.105 thickness factor, recipe can be practiced on any machine.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg8544.html#msg8544

Reply # 106, page 6: 17-inch, high-gluten flour, 63% hydration, 0.105 thickness factor, recipe can be practiced on any machine.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg8546.html#msg8546

Reply # 107, page 6: matrix for pizza sizes 12-inch to 17-inch, with hydration levels from 60-65%, recipe can be practiced on any machine. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg8589.html#msg8589

Reply # 129, page 7: par-baked dough, 16-inch, KASL, 63% hydration, stand mixer. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg10061.html#msg10061

Reply # 132, page 7: 13-inch, KASL, 62% hydration, IDY plus preferment, 0.105 thickness factor, room-temperature rise (a combination of overnight and during the day), stand mixer. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg10461.html#msg10461

Reply # 151, page 8: 16-inch, KASL, 64% hydration, 0.105 thickness factor, natural preferment only (in liquid form), Calvel autolyse, stand mixer. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg11774.html#msg11774

Reply # 161, page 9: 16-inch, similar to recipe in Reply # 151 but without autolyse and the dough is made entirely in one day (9-hour room-temperature fermentation period), stand mixer. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg12367.html#msg12367

Reply # 165, page 9: 16-inch, KASL, 63% hydration, natural preferment (dough-like consistency, with overnight rise), no autolyse, room-temperature fermentation, same day dough, stand mixer. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg12644.html#msg12644

Reply # 175, page 9: 16-inch, same as recipe in Reply # 165, except (1) using an unrefreshed natural preferment with overnight rise and only in the quantity needed, (2) an autolyse, (3) food processor. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg12748.html#msg12748

Reply # 186, page 10: Adaptations of the basic Lehmann recipe (KASL, 63% hydration, 0.105 thickness factor) for 12-inch (single pizza or two pizzas), 14-inch and 16-inch, recipe can be practiced on any machine. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg12874.html#msg12874

Reply # 205, page 11: 12-inch, basic Lehmann recipe but using (1) all-purpose flour, (2) 60% hydration, (3) 0.105 thickness factor, (4) vital wheat gluten, and (5) dried dairy whey; pizza screen (no stone), stand mixer. (See also related Reply # 204). http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg15669.html#msg15669

Reply # 260, page 14: 18-inch, KASL, 63% hydration, bread machine. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17113.html#msg17113

Reply # 272, page 14: 16-inch, KASL, 60% hydration, frozen dough with honey, stand mixer. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17428.html#msg17428

Reply # 279, page 14: 18-inch, KASL, 63% hydration, 0.105 thickness factor, stand mixer (for a photo of an 18-inch pizza using this formulation and baked on a Forno Bravo outdoors oven, see the opening thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2003.0.html). http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17691.html#msg17691

Reply # 280, page 15: 16-inch, KASL, 63% hydration, low-yeast (0.17% IDY, by weight of flour), low finished dough temperature (75 degrees F), stand mixer. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17956.html#msg17956

Reply # 290 and Reply # 291, page 15: "mini" dough rounds used to make "mini" pizzas (2 1/2" across), based on using a standard Lehmann 16-inch dough. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg18395.html#msg18395

Reply # 297 and Reply # 298, page 15: 9-inch, KASL, 63% hydration, 0.105 thickness factor, food processor, baked on a bed of preheated rocks in a pan. See also Reply # 373 below for a stand mixer 15-inch version. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg18918.html#msg18918

Reply # 356, page 18: 30-inch, KASL, 63% hydration, 0.105 thickness factor, stand mixer. (Note: this is just a formulation only, and was prepared at the request of a member of the forum. It would be far too large to make in a home oven. A commercial oven would be needed, and quite possibly a 30-inch pizza screen or pan.) http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg21477.html#msg21477

Reply # 362, page 19: 16-inch "take-and bake" Lehmann version using a commercial yeast biga, KASL, 63% hydration, 0.11 thickness factor, stand mixer. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg23239.html#msg23239

Reply # 373, page 19: 15-inch, KASL, 63% hydration, 0.105 thickness factor, stand mixer, baked on a bed of preheated rocks in a 15 3/4" perforated pizza pan. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg24930.html#msg24930

Reply # 389, page 20: 16-inch, KASL, 63% hydration, 0.105 thickness factor, stand mixer, baked entirely on a 16-inch pizza screen (i.e., without a stone). Is a good candidate for summer time baking because of short oven bake time--about one half hour. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg26720.html#msg26720

Replies # 407 and 408, page 21: 12-inch, KASL, 63% hydration, 0.105 thickness factor, stand mixer, same-day, few-hours versions (3 hours, including 2 hours of cold fermentation; and 2 hours, room-temperature fermentation only).
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg27251.html#msg27251

Reply # 424, page 22: 16-inch, KASL, 63% hydration, stand mixer, pre-bake before dressing, uses only a pizza screen (no stones/tiles). Is a good candidate for summer time baking because of short oven bake time--about one-half hour.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg27372.html#msg27372

Edit: For other (non-Lehmann) NY style dough formulations, see the collection at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11860.0.html.

Edit (5/22/20): For Lehmann NY style doughs capable of cold fermentation for up to a few weeks or more, see the thread at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33251#msg33251

[scott r]

Peter, this is going to help a lot.   I was having a tough time last night finding the version I was looking for.

I ordered some KASL today and king arthur said they stopped selling the 5 pound bags.   Now they sell 3 pound bags.....weird???

[pftaylor]

If there was ever a pizza hall of fame, Pete-zza would have to be an inaugural member. The amount of work which went into creating all the variations of the Lehmann formula is enormous.

Pete-zza never ceases to amaze me with the generosity of his time and expertise. I am in awe of the magnitude of his consistent giving to this community. The roadmap post is the culmination of countless hours of responding and materially helping others.

He is a treasured resource which deserves the utmost respect.

[Pete-zza]

pft,

Thank you for posting that tribute exactly as I wrote it up . The check is in the mail.

Peter

[pftaylor]

Pete-zza,
I'm appalled at your intransigence. You said I would be paid in cool cash.

[tjacks88]

Peter,

Thanks for posting this, now I can print this out as an index then print all of them out to keep in a binder rather than searching for them all of the time.

Scott,
That's interesting about the KASL going from 5lb to 3lb bags. I really like that flour the best, I hope they don't discontinue it. Is 3lb the only size or can you get larger?

Peter - can you recommend another good high gluten flour just in case (do you know what is the most common brand used by the NY Pizzerias?)

Thanks

Tom

[Pete-zza]

Tom,

Unfortunately, King Arthur has virtually no competition in the consumer space. All of the majors, like General Mills, Pillsbury and Bay State, have high-gluten flours in their product lineup but they come in very large bags (typically 25-50 lbs.) and are not sold at the retail level. If you are able to locate a foodservice distributor/wholesaler near you willing to sell on a cash and carry basis, as scott did recently with the KASL, that would be the best way to go. I don't know what the most common brand of high-gluten flour is among NY pizzerias, but if I had to guess I would say All Trumps, from General Mills. It's a good flour, although not quite as good as the KASL.

BTW, some members identified a company that sells the large bags of KASL to consumers. If you are interested, I'm sure I can come up with the name. I don't know how good they are, but it might be a good starting point to investigate further.

Peter

[scott r]

tjacks88, They indicated that they no longer sell 5 pound bags.  I am hoping this just means they are out of 5 pound bags.

[tjacks88]

Scott,

I went on the web page for KA and it looks like they have repackaged several of their flours in 3lb bags.

Peter,

That would be great if you could pass on the source to buy the KASL in a larger quantity when you have a chance. I don't mind buying a bigger bag, I can store it. I really like this flour - I was surprised out how much better it looked and felt than your average flour before even using it, plus it tastes and works the best. I guess plan B would be to talk to the local pizza place. I'm also trying to figure out how to get Grande cheese. I have been using the 6 in 1 tomatoes from Escalon and really like them.

Thanks,

Tom

[Pete-zza]

Tom,

The outfit whose name I was trying to think of is Dutch Valley Foods. You can read about them, as well as our members' experiences with that company, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1140.msg10114.html#msg10114. You should also take note of fellow member Wayno's recommendations, also at the linked thread, of finding a possible source of the KASL from an approved KA reseller/distributor. That avenue may or may not work out, but I definitely think it is worth a try.

Peter

[wayno]

Yes.  It worked for me!  I was able to get 2 bags of KASL (50 lbs each) for a total of $40 including the tip to the restaurant manager.  There is no shipping charge!!!

[tjacks88]

Did you just start asking around at restaurants in your area? The one guy I did talk to at a pizza place out here was worried I was trying to compete with him

[Pete-zza]

Just a note to say that I modified the Lehmann Roadmap today to reference a new version of a Lehmann recipe (at Reply # 205 of the Lehmann thread) that uses all-purpose flour, vital wheat gluten, and dried dairy whey. It is the best all-purpose version of the Lehmann recipe I have made to date, after many unsuccessful attempts.

See the photo below for an example of the finished product, with greater detail provided at Reply # 205 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg15669.html#msg15669.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Today I updated the Lehmann Roadmap to reference my most recent Lehmann NY style pizza--an 18-inch pizza using the King Arthur Sir Lancelot (KASL) flour, 63% hydration, and use of a bread machine to knead the dough.

See the photo below for an example of the finished product, described more fully at Reply # 260 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.260.html.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Today I updated the Lehmann Roadmap to reference my most recent Lehmann NY style pizza--a 16-inch pizza using the King Arthur Sir Lancelot (KASL) flour, 60% hydration, a frozen Lehmann dough using honey, and a stand mixer to knead the dough.

See the photo below for an example of the finished product (Italian sausage with green peppers and mushrooms), described more fully at Reply # 272, at page 14, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17428.html#msg17428 (see also Reply # 273).

Peter

[pam]

Pete-zza,
I'm appalled at your intransigence. You said I would be paid in cool cash.

Pete-zza, next time you need someone to post a tribute, don't waste your money on PFT: I'll post it for two 16" of your NY masterpieces or 1 NY and 1 Chicago-style. :grin:

[Pete-zza]

LOL...

I would pay pftaylor just for words like intransigence and denouement . He's trying to make this a classier place.

Peter

[pam]

LOL...

I would pay pftaylor just for words like intransigence and denouement . He's trying to make this a classier place.

Peter

So does that mean you won't be sending my any of your masterpieces? 

[Pete-zza]

pam,

Maybe you have heard this proverb: Give a man a pizza and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to make a pizza and you feed him for a lifetime .

Peter

[pam]

pam,

Maybe you have heard this proverb: Give a man a pizza and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to make a pizza and you feed him for a lifetime .

Peter

I completely agree. But, as the saying goes, "experience is the best teacher," which means that you need to send me a couple of pies so I can learn from experience.