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Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #180 on: May 02, 2012, 01:15:04 PM »
Norma

I will be interested in following along, I might even make a dough myself. I don't have the same flour as you, but I think I can formulate a very close approximation by combine some ap flour with some GM Better for Bread flour. I will say that I feel that 67% hydration is too high for this dough, however I'll try one at 67 and another in the range I am comfortable with. Will be interesting to see the results, I've been making a lot of Sicilian/thick pan style pies lately so I have a good base for comparison.
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Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #181 on: May 02, 2012, 01:31:08 PM »
Just did a little research and found that GM Full Strenght is considered a bread flour with a protein rating of 12.6%, incase anyone else may be interested in following along.
Rest In Peace - November 1, 2014

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #182 on: May 02, 2012, 01:56:50 PM »
Norma

I will be interested in following along, I might even make a dough myself. I don't have the same flour as you, but I think I can formulate a very close approximation by combine some ap flour with some GM Better for Bread flour. I will say that I feel that 67% hydration is too high for this dough, however I'll try one at 67 and another in the range I am comfortable with. Will be interesting to see the results, I've been making a lot of Sicilian/thick pan style pies lately so I have a good base for comparison.

Dave,

Sure would be interesting if you followed along!   ;D  Are you going to try Jim's soaker method too?

Norma

Offline JimmyG

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #183 on: May 02, 2012, 07:32:46 PM »
Just made my up my 25% soaker and following Norma's recipe for her Sicilian (for a 10x15 in pan). I will mix the final dough on Sat and try to bake it off on Sun.

Total Formula:
Flour KAAP (100%):    384.19 g  |  13.55 oz | 0.85 lbs
Water (67%):    257.41 g  |  9.08 oz | 0.57 lbs
Salt (1.95%):    7.49 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.56 tsp | 0.52 tbsp
IDY (.4%):    1.54 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.51 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Total (169.35%):   650.63 g | 22.95 oz | 1.43 lbs | TF = 0.153

Preferment: Soaker:
Flour KAAP:    48.02 g | 1.69 oz | 0.11 lbs
Water:    48.02 g | 1.69 oz | 0.11 lbs
Total:    96.05 g | 3.39 oz | 0.21 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour KAAP:    336.17 g | 11.86 oz | 0.74 lbs
Water:    209.39 g | 7.39 oz | 0.46 lbs
Salt:    7.49 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.56 tsp | 0.52 tbsp
IDY:    1.54 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.51 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Preferment:    96.05 g | 3.39 oz | 0.21 lbs
Total:    650.63 g | 22.95 oz | 1.43 lbs  | TF = 0.153


Quote
He told me my Sicilian pizza was better than any he had tried in Brooklyn, including L&B Spumoni Gardens.
If it tastes anything like it looks Norma, I would be inclined to agree.  :chef:
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #184 on: May 02, 2012, 08:08:49 PM »
Just made my up my 25% soaker and following Norma's recipe for her Sicilian (for a 10x15 in pan). I will mix the final dough on Sat and try to bake it off on Sun.

Total Formula:
Flour KAAP (100%):    384.19 g  |  13.55 oz | 0.85 lbs
Water (67%):    257.41 g  |  9.08 oz | 0.57 lbs
Salt (1.95%):    7.49 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.56 tsp | 0.52 tbsp
IDY (.4%):    1.54 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.51 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Total (169.35%):   650.63 g | 22.95 oz | 1.43 lbs | TF = 0.153

Preferment: Soaker:
Flour KAAP:    48.02 g | 1.69 oz | 0.11 lbs
Water:    48.02 g | 1.69 oz | 0.11 lbs
Total:    96.05 g | 3.39 oz | 0.21 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour KAAP:    336.17 g | 11.86 oz | 0.74 lbs
Water:    209.39 g | 7.39 oz | 0.46 lbs
Salt:    7.49 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.56 tsp | 0.52 tbsp
IDY:    1.54 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.51 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Preferment:    96.05 g | 3.39 oz | 0.21 lbs
Total:    650.63 g | 22.95 oz | 1.43 lbs  | TF = 0.153

If it tastes anything like it looks Norma, I would be inclined to agree.  :chef:

Jim,

Wow, you made your soaker dough already.  Will really be looking forward to your results!  I am really curious  how a soaker will work out with the formulation I am using.  Wish I could be there to taste your pie.  ;D

I have tasted L&B Spumoni Gardens pies and they are a little drier and a little more dense than the crumbs of the recent attempted pizza I made.  That was only one mans opinion of my pizza, so I wouldnít take it necessarily to mean mine was better.  Maybe that man liked a higher hydration dough better, or maybe the dressings on my pizza better.  I also have no idea of when the last time the man tasted a pie at L&B Spumoni Gardens.  :-D

Norma

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Offline JimmyG

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #185 on: May 02, 2012, 08:59:00 PM »
Norma,
You kind of gave me an excuse to try my hands at a Sicilian this weekend and I am kind of curious what this soaker method will yield. I am not sure how it will turn out, but here's hoping.
Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought.

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #186 on: May 02, 2012, 09:29:45 PM »
Norma,
You kind of gave me an excuse to try my hands at a Sicilian this weekend and I am kind of curious what this soaker method will yield. I am not sure how it will turn out, but here's hoping.

Jim,

Good to hear I kind of gave you an excuse to try a Sicilian this weekend.  I hope the soaker method will make a great pizza.  There is always something to be learned in doing experiments. 

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #187 on: May 03, 2012, 07:52:09 AM »
Jim or anyone that is interested,

I just wanted to show this post on someoneís blog if anyone is interested in maybe trying a soaker with Einkorn flour (whole grain). http://breadmakingblog.breadexperience.com/2012/04/einkorn-and-olive-oil-pizza-dough.html  The pizza looks good to me, but I never tried the Einkorn flour, but had posted about maybe trying it before on the Pizzarium thread.  This use of a soaker and biga sounds different.  It sounds like this dough would be a high hydration dough if extra bread flour wasnít added.  Maybe it could be a Sicilian pizza if it were made in a pan.  Looks to me like this blogger has some different pizza methods.

Norma

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #188 on: May 03, 2012, 09:20:04 AM »
Norma & Jimmy

I plan on following along, I'll make the exact recipe that Jimmy outlines above. I don't usually make soakers for pizza dough, I feel that my long, cold ferments accomplish much the same results (more flavor) and to a much greater degree. I also feel the hydration is too high, these pies are not baked at the temperatures typical of Neapolitan style pies and I don't feel that the high hydration adds anything to the final product. However, for experimental reasons I will do exactly as Jimmy has outlined. Please varify that you bake in a 10"x15" rectangular pan, and can you also varify the temperature at which you will bake.
Rest In Peace - November 1, 2014

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #189 on: May 03, 2012, 09:46:34 AM »
Norma & Jimmy

My search reveals that the protein rating for KAAP is 11.7%, while GM Full STrength is 12.6%. These flours aren't really the same, I think we should reach some common ground  before we go forward.
Rest In Peace - November 1, 2014

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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #190 on: May 03, 2012, 10:25:09 AM »
Norma & Jimmy

I plan on following along, I'll make the exact recipe that Jimmy outlines above. I don't usually make soakers for pizza dough, I feel that my long, cold ferments accomplish much the same results (more flavor) and to a much greater degree. I also feel the hydration is too high, these pies are not baked at the temperatures typical of Neapolitan style pies and I don't feel that the high hydration adds anything to the final product. However, for experimental reasons I will do exactly as Jimmy has outlined. Please varify that you bake in a 10"x15" rectangular pan, and can you also varify the temperature at which you will bake.

Dave,

Glad to hear you also will be following along with Jimís soaker Sicilian pie!  I believe your longer cold ferment does give you the better flavors in your crust without a soaker.  

I even forgot to look at what size steel pan Jim posted the soaker formulation for.  I thought about it a little now. and since my steel pans are at market now, and I canít really remember what exact sizes they are, then I searched the forum for when I purchased my steel pans.  My post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16473.msg160865.html#msg160865 tells me my sizes of steel pans to try are either 8Ēx10Ē or the one I have been trying which is 12Ēx17Ē.  I will have to figure out Jimís formulation to try in either of my steel pans.

As far as a higher hydration in a Sicilian pie, I have found I do like higher hydrations.  When I was doing experiments on the Pizzarium thread I liked those higher hydrations, although I wasnít consistent in my bakes.  Higher hydrations may not be for everyone though.  

My bake temperaturess will be about 525 degrees F, or a little variation depending on how my deck oven hearth temperature really are.  


Norma & Jimmy

My search reveals that the protein rating for KAAP is 11.7%, while GM Full STrength is 12.6%. These flours aren't really the same, I think we should reach some common ground  before we go forward.

What do you suggest about the use of the different flours?  What kind of different flours do you have on hand at home?

Norma
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 10:27:00 AM by norma427 »

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #191 on: May 03, 2012, 11:05:14 AM »
Norma

Since Jimmy already has his soaker started using KAAP, I will also use that or a very similar flour. I prefer ap over bread flour for this style, so this works for me. Your GM Full Strenght flour is definitely a bread flour as opposed to an ap. Perhaps that is why you are using higher hyrdation, I don't feel that ap flour needs the 67% you are using with your bread flour. I stilll feel that anything we discover while using KAAP flour will not neseccarily translate to your dough if you are using a different flour. Perhaps you might like to make two doughs, one with your GM flour and one with KAAP. Then you will accurately be able to compare the two. I still stand on my contention that the soaker won't do anything more for the dough then a 3 day cold ferment would.
Rest In Peace - November 1, 2014

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #192 on: May 03, 2012, 11:18:21 AM »
Norma

Since Jimmy already has his soaker started using KAAP, I will also use that or a very similar flour. I prefer ap over bread flour for this style, so this works for me. Your GM Full Strenght flour is definitely a bread flour as opposed to an ap. Perhaps that is why you are using higher hyrdation, I don't feel that ap flour needs the 67% you are using with your bread flour. I stilll feel that anything we discover while using KAAP flour will not neseccarily translate to your dough if you are using a different flour. Perhaps you might like to make two doughs, one with your GM flour and one with KAAP. Then you will accurately be able to compare the two. I still stand on my contention that the soaker won't do anything more for the dough then a 3 day cold ferment would.

Dave,

I also can make another dough with KAAP since I have that at home.  Since I am going to be making two doughs I will use my small steel pans.  I donít really think that will matter, but sure donít know.  Are you still going to be trying 67% hydration with KAAP?  I would think if using KAAP there might need to be some stretches and folds if the hydration is going to stay at 67%.  I believe you are right that the soaker wonít do anything more than a dough than a dough that has a 3 day cold ferment.  It is always interesting to experiment though to see what the results might be.

Norma 

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #193 on: May 03, 2012, 11:25:44 AM »
Norma

Yes, I will go 67%percent with the KAAP. I am curious to see the result. I have a feeling that the dough will be gummy if cooked at your 525 degrees for 15 minutes. I will also make a dough with KAAP at a lower hydration so I can compare.
Rest In Peace - November 1, 2014

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #194 on: May 03, 2012, 11:40:52 AM »
Norma

Yes, I will go 67%percent with the KAAP. I am curious to see the result. I have a feeling that the dough will be gummy if cooked at your 525 degrees for 15 minutes. I will also make a dough with KAAP at a lower hydration so I can compare.

Dave,

Since you are going with 67% hydration with KAAP I will too.  Best of luck in both of your experiments!  :)

Norma

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Offline JimmyG

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #195 on: May 03, 2012, 01:12:29 PM »
Norma and David,
The formula I created for Norma's soaker and Sicilian in post 176 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg185483.html#msg185483 is based on her formula from here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18281.msg178345.html#msg178345  (minus the sugar ;D). I am using the exact same formula, I only changing around the pan size (10x15) to accommodate my smaller pan.

I do not think it necessary to find the same pan size, use what what works best in your situation. I don't feel it is necessary to stick with the same flour or formula for that mater (if you want to that is great) or temp (I bake off my Sicilians between 525-550F depending on my mood). I think we have all played around with enough quick doughs, overnight doughs, and various starters, temps, and formulas in the past to be able to notice any changes in quality.

For myself, I what I am wanting to get out of this is: does the dough flavor improve by using a soaker? Does the soaker effect dough quality? If I was to try this again, would I use more or less of a soaker? And would this be a manageable way for Norma to add more flavor to her Tues pizzas if she does not want to fool around with a preferment?
Which ever direction you both take, good luck.
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Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #196 on: May 03, 2012, 02:30:34 PM »
Jimmyg

I have a 10"x15" pan so I'll follow along with you at that size. Are you keeping your soaker at room temp, or are you refridgerating it. If it stays out at room temp for several days, we may have a sourdough statrted! Give a a rundown on your workflow and timetable, I'll experiment along with an ap version and a bread flour version. I'll also do a control dough which will be my stardard Sicilian dough made with a 3 day cold ferment rather then a soaker.
Rest In Peace - November 1, 2014

Offline JimmyG

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #197 on: May 03, 2012, 03:52:39 PM »
David,
 I am roughly following what Norma might do, given her situation. I will mix up the soaker and let it sit in the fridge (40F) for roughly 72h, mix the soaker into my final dough after 72h and refrigerate the final dough overnight before baking. I will probably let the dough warm up for 2-3h before the bake.
I look forward to seeing how your two doughs compare.

« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 05:50:18 PM by JimmyG »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #198 on: May 03, 2012, 06:10:53 PM »
Jim,

I am going to take your approach but will use smaller pans.  I am also using two doughs, one with KAAP and one with GM Full Strength.  I also will use the formulation I have used this past week and make a larger Sicilian.  I also want to know what happens in a 3 day cold ferment of the soakers.  I wonder if any wild yeast can be in the flour or in the air and affect the outcome over a 3 day period of a soaker.   

Thanks again for your help!  :)

Norma

Offline Ev

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Re: Trying a different Sicilian pie tomorrow
« Reply #199 on: May 04, 2012, 08:32:07 AM »
Very interesting experiment. I'm looking forward to tasting the results! :-D
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