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Offline PizzaBrasil

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Fluor analysis
« on: September 14, 2005, 02:35:28 PM »
Hi all, pizza genious!
I am a new kid on the block, just registered now.
However I had read your threads a long time ago, since you are such a fantastic group that I could not stop to learn with you. And always finishing hungry!  8>)
I build my own brick oven, dome type, and I am cooking pizzas at least once a week.
I try several of the recipes discussed in this forum, being the Tom Lenhman´s, Varazano´s, NY style and a variation of pizza Hut the preferred ones.
Normally the dough is made using baker´s percentages, refrigerated by 24 hours and cooked on the hearth bricks at 700/800 °F (2’ cooking).
I like this pizzas so much, however, as (copying Pete-zza) “always learning” is a life style, I have my first questions.
I live in Brazil, and the commercial flour is different that your KA or, who could, Caputo ones.
The flour with highest protein has as much as 10%, and there is no distinction between bread, high gluten or so flours.
The one that I use has the following composition
Calories: 7%
Carbo-Hydrate: 10%
Protein: 10%
Total fat: 0%
Saturated fat: 0%
Cholesterol: 0%
Fiber: 3%
Calcium: 1%
Iron: 14%
Sodium: 0%
Gluten contents.
How showed in the package.
I feel the dough smooth, mild, light, following the expected descriptions and when cooked seems to be very good (and going better).
However, I am sure that you could give me a lot of information to try better dough and taste.
Could anyone to analyze the flour specifications above and carry me to the “Paradise way of pizzas”? ;>p
Thanks all

Luis

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Fluor analysis
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2005, 06:13:04 PM »
PizzaBrazil,

Welcome to the forum. 

I'm happy to hear that you have been having good results using several of the pizza recipes posted on the forum. It's clear from your post that you have correctly identified the factors that go into making high quality pizzas. I only wish you had available to you in Brazil to the kinds of flours we have available to us here in the U.S. because I think you would find them of great benefit to your pizza making efforts.  I looked at the information you provided on the flour you have been using. Unfortunately, that information is "nutritional" information rather than the technical specifications that describe the flour and how it might be used. You may be able to get the specifications from the miller of the flour you are using. Here in the U.S., that type of information is often made available at the websites of the milling companies.

I understand from some basic research that Brazil imports most of its flour from the U.S. and Argentina. For quite a while there were trade/tariff disputes between the U.S. and Brazil that prevented Brazil from importing certain grains from the U.S., including hard red spring wheat. I mention that grain intentionally because it is that grain that is used to make high-gluten flours like the King Arthur Sir Lancelot and bread flours that you appear to have read about on the forum. I don't know the current status of the negotiations between the U.S. and Brazil on those matters, but if the type of wheat mentioned above is now permitted into Brazil and is being made into high-protein flour, then that is the flour you will want to get if you can. If you are able to do this, then that will start you on the path to "Pizza Paradise".

As noted above, I have read that Brazil imports a lot of its grains/flours from Argentina. In the past this was done because purchases were tariff-free. Piroshok (Ricardo) will not doubt be familiar with that practice and speak more competently and authoritatively than I, however if there are flours or grains from Argentina that are higher in protein and gluten than the flour you are now using, it would be a good idea to locate some for your pizza making efforts if that is possible.

One very bright note in your situation is the fact that you have an oven that can operate at very high temperatures. That will often make up for a lot of deficiencies in the flour you are using. That is, even with an ordinary baking flour, you will be able to make some very good pizzas in your oven--better than the same pizzas will do in a standard home oven. Because of your oven, you may also be able to make a form of Neapolitan style pizza by using your flour with a higher hydration (more water) and not using any oil, or just a small amount of it. You won't get the same results as you would get if you had Caputo 00 flour, but it should still produce an enjoyable pizza, mainly because of the high heat of your oven and its ability to bake pizzas very quickly.

Please keep us informed of your efforts to "import" the pizzas from this forum into Brazil. That's a wonderful accomplishment and you should be proud of your efforts.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 14, 2005, 06:15:11 PM by Pete-zza »

piroshok

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Re: Fluor analysis
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2005, 07:13:01 PM »
Welcome to the forum PizzaBrasil
I know for a fact that some Italian pizzamakers in Brasil stated to use flour coming from Argentina classed as W350
Unfortunately don't have full details of labels and so on
However if you read my post http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1840.0.html may work for you it is a question of trial and error

« Last Edit: September 14, 2005, 07:15:17 PM by piroshok »

Offline PizzaBrasil

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Re: Fluor analysis
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2005, 02:00:57 PM »
Peter/Ricardo:

Thanks for your fast response (alias, as I used to see at anytime in this group)
From your answers, I could see that the only thing that I could do to obtain better pizzas is to go with vital gluten flour (and in between, search by better flours too, of course).
In fact, I had read the Ricardo thread and I put the necessary percentage of vital gluten in any dough that I made.
Had no (to our taste) appreciative difference with the appearance or taste of the finished pizza.
I will try this week end again, may be with a little more of gluten.
If I could know the physical characteristics (not nutritional, sorry Peter) I´ll send you to receive your directions.

Luis

Offline Johnny the Gent

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Re: Fluor analysis
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2006, 10:18:52 AM »
Hello everybody,

I've been following some of the threads for the last couple weeks, but this is my first post.  What an impressive and valuable source of information about the art and science of pizzamaking!  Many of the users' tips in this forum have helped out my inicial efforts tremendously, so thanks to everyone, especially Pete-zza who is doing some serious work and sharing a lot with us all!!!

To PizzaBrasil:  I'm also in Brasil (Belo Horizonte, Minas Gerais).  I'm an American Citizen, but am studying law here (go figure :o) .    Is is due to my location, or are high-quality imported flours hard to come by? I imagine I'd have more access to these goods if I were in São Paulo, where there is a HUGE italian immigrant population...I found imported italian semolina and imported canned tomatoes (Pomodori Pelati- but nothing bearing the San Marzano name) at most, but am currently stuck using flours that I find at the better supermarkets and gourmet shops- ex: Fleischman, Renata and the national Mãe Terra brand (which makes a high glutin flour with 12 % protein).
  Also, despite having questioned various bakers, there seems to be no distinction between bleached or unbleached flour.  So this means I'm stuck using what I believe to be bleached, all purpose flour.  Are you experiencing the same thing where you're at? 

To piroshok- I read your note about the Argentinian flour, interesting stuff.  I'll be checking out your link next.  This W350 flour, what would this be comparable to? 

*Having my first pizza party tomorrow!!! A small group of friends, nothing big, just good pizza and good wine! Wish me luck!

Jon
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Offline PizzaBrasil

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Re: Fluor analysis
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2006, 03:24:11 PM »
Jon

Yes. As you could see from the first message in this topic, I am experienced the same thing than you when in reference to flour types.
I do not know the Mãe Terra brand and I feel that Renata could be one of the best flours here. Despite it is a lower protein one.
I am living in São José dos Campos, SP and working with a lot of co-religionist of you.
May be I could treat any W350 in my next visit to Argentina.
Best luck.

Luis

Offline Johnny the Gent

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Re: Fluor analysis
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2006, 07:16:13 PM »
PizzaBrasil


In case you're interested in trying it, here's the website:  www.maeterra.com.br    and phone number  11 5686-3406

  The name of the flour is "Farinha de Glúten"

Hey, that'd be cool- a flour sample from Argentina!  I like Renata, too.  A little more expensive, but worth it that's for sure.

Take care,

Jon
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Fluor analysis
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2006, 07:40:05 PM »
Jon,

Welcome to the forum.

From your last post I couldn't quite tell whether the product Farinha de Glúten is supposed to be a flour with a protein content of 12%. I went to the maetarra website you referenced and after having Google translate the page for me, it occurs to me that the Farinha de Glúten product may be what we in the U.S. call vital wheat gluten, which is often sometimes called gluten flour. The fact that the bag contains a bit over a pound of the product would also suggest vital wheat gluten since flour is usually sold in bigger bags, at least in the U.S. It is possible, of course, to supplement a low protein flour with the vital wheat gluten to increase its protein content.

Peter

Offline Johnny the Gent

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Re: Fluor analysis
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2006, 12:01:35 AM »
Pete-zza,

Thanks!   Hmmm, Farinha de Glúten would in fact be Gluten Flour in English... The ingredients are exactly the same as the other all purpose bleached flours, but it is enriched with gluten.  Did you get a chance to see the nutritional info on their website?    If not:

Nutritional Information
                         based on  100g   based on  50g   % Daily value
 Energy Value                 360 kcal    180 kcal           9
Carbohydrates                  43 g        21 g            7
 Protein                                       41 g       20 g         27

 total fat                                        2 g          1 g              2
 saturated fat                               0 g      0 g                  0
 trans fat                                     0 g          0 g              0
 Cholesterol                                 0 mg     0 mg                0
 fiber                                               2 g     1 g                4
 Calcium                                     154 mg     77 mg               8
 Iron                                             2 mg         1 mg             6
 Sodium                                        0 mg       0 mg          0
 
Based on the above info, does this look like VWG/ Gluten flour?


And now, check out what I got from the back of the package

Carbs-            11%
Protein-         12%

Fat-                2%
Saturated fat 0%
Trans Fat        0%
fiber                4%
Iron             13%
Sodium            0
Folic Acid         16

Indeed, some conflicting information.  >:(   
  I'm not sure what VWG or what gluten flour costs in the US, but I paid 3.70 Reais for a 500 g bag. Just so you have a basis for comparison, one kilo of good all purpose flour costs anwhere from 2 to 3 reais, with the common brands a lot cheaper.  Their whole wheat flour (same quantity) is also the same price.

 Normally, any flour found in the supermarkets here weighs one kilo. 

Jon
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Fluor analysis
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2006, 12:41:12 AM »
Jon,

I did look at the nutrition information but I couldn't figure it out since the use of Energy Values is not as common in the U.S. as it is outside. However, looking at the high carbohydrates percent seems to suggest that what you have may well be flour supplemented with vital wheat gluten in order to increase the protein content. Pure vital wheat gluten is pretty much all protein, with just a small amount of carbohydrate.

Pure vital wheat gluten usually has an off-white, or tan, color. To give you an idea of what it looks like, you can see a bag here: http://www.bobsredmill.com/catalog/index.php?action=showdetails&product_ID=400. If you click on the nutrition information, it will appear in a separate window.

Peter

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Offline PizzaBrasil

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Re: Fluor analysis
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2006, 06:57:49 AM »
Jon, Peter:

The Mae Terra farinha de gluten, is the normal flour increased with gluten seco.
The gluten seco, is the (I assume) VWG, with 75% of protein at all.
I had used the farinha de gluten, thinking that it was VWG, with no differences in the final dough. I could see why, now.

Luis

Offline Johnny the Gent

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Re: Fluor analysis
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2006, 07:54:27 AM »
Luis-  I think that's what it is too.  Based on the website info, the normal flour enriched with gluten has 27% protein.  They have a product called "Gluten Seco", which comes in an even smaller bag of 100g, and has a protein content of 76%.  I think this Gluten Seco is VWG.

For my thin crust recipe that I've been using, I substituted one third of the flour with the gluten flour.  I used a little bit of semolina and flour to dust when shaping the doughballs.  I can't wait to see how the crusts turn out!!!

Peter-
 From what I've read on this forum, high gluten flours available in the US have about 12%.  Seems like Maeterra makes their gluten flour pretty concentrated.  Ah- I noticed that the color of the gluten flour was an off-white, tan color, compared to the normal flour I use.

Jon
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Fluor analysis
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2006, 10:07:15 AM »
Jon,

High-gluten flour on the U.S. is higher that what you specified. Some millers break down the high-gluten category into two ranges: 13-13.7% protein, which is termed a "medium high gluten" flour, and 13.8-14.2% protein, which is termed a "premium high-gluten" flour. Some people refer to bread flour as a high-gluten flour also. As an example, the King Arthur bread flour has 12.7% protein. Because of the varying terminology it is important to look for the actual percents rather than rely solely on the miller's categorization.

Peter


Offline Johnny the Gent

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Re: Fluor analysis
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2006, 01:32:09 PM »
Peter  thanks for the clarification.
By the way, I was thinking about the doughballs in my fridge right now...For the recipe, I substituted one third of the flour ( 9 or 10% protein) with the gluten flour (27%).  May I have added too much?  How does the dough alter, chemicall, as a result of having too much gluten added?  When kneading, I thought the dough was stickier than usual, and I haven´t changed quantities of the other ingredients... Would it turn out too chewy?  I´ll find out tonight!!!   

I´m using my only oven- a conventional gas oven (500 deg) w/out a pizzastone.  Hey, gotta work with what you got, right.  If you can provide a link to a preexisting thread about making the most out of a conventional oven,  I´d appreciate that.  Specifically- where to place the pizza (directly over the heat source-bottom of the oven,  bottom rack,  middle, etc.)   I haven´t found any pizza stones here yet, but have asked around for quarry tile, or something similar.

Luis-  I stopped by a Churrasco (BBQ) supply store, and was looking at some rock tiles they have called pedra refractória which are used for making barbeque pits and wood burning stoves.  Do you think I could use this on the bottom of my oven?  I´m not sure if it´s suitable for that kind of thing.  Got any suggestions?


Jon
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Fluor analysis
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2006, 02:06:33 PM »
Jon,

I think you may be comparing apples with oranges in comparing the 9-10% protein number with the 27% number. I believe the 27% number represents a percent of Daily value, which is different than percent protein. That said, I think your dough should be OK, although we may have to wait for your results to know for sure. If you had used vital wheat gluten in excess, it would normally show up in the form of a chewier, darker crust than normal. It might also get tough if it sits around too long. I have seen instances where people used large amounts of vital wheat gluten by accident, thinking it was regular flour, but apparently found the finished crust to be acceptable.

The best information about using your gas oven is scattered all over the forum. If you can get some non-toxic (unglazed) clay tiles, that would be my first recommendation if you don't plan to use a pizza stone. If you find the tiles, I would preheat them in the oven at increasing temperatures for about an hour to allow them to outgas before using (allowing them to cool down first). After that, you would preheat the tiles for about an hour at around 475-500 degrees F. If you can't find tiles, then a pizza screen would be my second choice, but it is possible that you may not be able to find a pizza screen where you are. That leaves up with using a pan, and in that case I would try to use a dark pan if you can, because of its greater conductivity characteristics, and place it on the rack position nearest to the source of heat or in the middle oven rack position, or possibly both, starting at the oven rack position closest to the heat source and moving it to the middle rack position away from  the heat source for the last few minutes of the bake. I would also use a fair amount of oil in the pan to help with the bottom crust browning. As with any oven, you will have to do some experimenting. Your biggest asset when doing something new in this regard is to just use common sense, logic, and your eyes. If the crust doesn't brown enough or fast enough, try raising the oven temperature, and vice versa. If the crust cooks too quickly, move the pizza away from the heat source or lower the oven temperature. The trick is to get the top done at the same time as the bottom is done.

Peter

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Offline PizzaBrasil

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Re: Fluor analysis
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2006, 04:06:27 PM »
Jon,

The pedra refratária, as long I know, will be ok to use in your oven. However, it is thick (3/4 inch) and you will need longer time than 1 hour heating your oven.
I had used the above mentioned non toxic clay tiles (piso frio sem vitrificar) that you could obtain for free in any construction supermarket (deposito de materiais). One or two 40 x 40 cm will be sufficient.
The pizza screen is easy to find, too, almost inexpensive, and I use to use it in combination with the tiles.
This pizza screen could be reached at same places where you could find the pizza pan.

Peter

Normally, our home oven is heated with gas (natural or bottled) and the heating element is located in the lower position of it, protected by a metal sheet with holes to direct the hot gases. The higher temperatures are 500 °F average.


Luis

Offline Johnny the Gent

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Re: Fluor analysis
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2006, 01:22:24 PM »
Hey guys!

Peter- NOWWW I GET IT!!!  Protein percent vc daily percent value as recommended in a 2000 cal diet :)   But the end result was VERY GOOD!   Nice and crispy on the bottom, crust rim crunchy on the outside and just a lil chewy. Not too bad considering the oven!!! 

Luis- Thanks for the advice and translations!!!  I´ll look for that stuff (piso frio)tomorrow, let´s see if I´ll be able to get if for free 8)  I don´t think I´ve ever seen a pizza screen...Today I bought a 35 cm black pizza pan,  with nonstick coating. I´ve been using aluminum pans before.  I hope it retains a little more heat.  I usually lay the pans directly on top of that metal sheet above the flames, and have had pretty good results.   In about 20 minutes the pie´s ready.

One thing I was curious about is how to actually use the tiles...Getting the newly formed pizza on top of the piles is usually done with a peel,  or what?  Or is a pizza screen the easiest method?
Thanks again for the dicas (tips)!

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Fluor analysis
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2006, 01:54:39 PM »
Jon,

You might want to double check your new dark pan to be sure it doesn't have the type of non-stick coating, such as a Teflon-type coating, that can break down at high oven temperatures and give off noxious/toxic fumes. The best dark pans are those that are naturally darkened from long use or those that have special baked-in coatings that can tolerate high oven heat.

Peter

Offline Johnny the Gent

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Re: Fluor analysis
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2006, 06:00:06 PM »
Peter,
not sure if it´s teflon coated,  but it is a non stick pan.  I imagine it´d be safe for conventional oven use at 500 deg Farenheit.  What do you consider to be high oven temperature? 
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Fluor analysis
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2006, 06:14:19 PM »
Jon,

The maximum temperature for both the Teflon and SilverStone coated cookware is 500 degrees F. An anodized pan can go higher. So, it will depend on what coating your pan has.

Peter

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