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Offline xclark

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dough rising question.
« on: November 08, 2005, 11:33:45 AM »
Hello there.  I make a batch of dough every Monday night for a Tuesday night bake.  I have been taking the dough to work with me on Tuesday so that I can pull it out of the fridge an hour before I go home for the day to bake the pie. 

my question is this:  instead of taking it to work and putting it in the fridge there until close to baking time, what would the result be if I took the dough out of my fridge on Tuesday morning and let it rise all day until I get home that night to bake it?

today I've got a Chicago Style dough, but it's just as often a NY style or a Neopolitan.  so, would 9 hours at room temperature have a detrimental effect on my doughs?

Thanks in advance.  love this board!
-clark

Offline PizzaDanPizzaMan

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Re: dough rising question.
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2005, 12:07:51 PM »
Xclark,
I'm certainly no expert, (there are several of those here though) but I have gotten into the habit of allowing more and more time for a counter rise after a cold proof. I don't know if there is a rule as to how long they should remain out at room temp but I have allowed mine to sit for as long as 6 hours with no detrimental affect to the dough handling characteristics. I am not sure however if this is having an adverse effect on flavor or other less conspicuous factors.

I'm sure one of the more knowledgeable members will offer some insight.

Dan

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: dough rising question.
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2005, 12:25:03 PM »
Clark,

It will depend on your dough recipes and the temperature of your kitchen where you would be letting the doughs sit throughout the entire day (Tuesdays, in your case). The fact that you would be letting an already cold dough sit at room temperature is a big plus in your case.

I think you could let a refrigerated dough sit at room temperature for a full workday if it doesn't have high levels of yeast and your kitchen is on the cool side. The rate and extent of fermentation activity that occurs is a function of dough temperature, room temperature, and the amount of yeast in the dough (there are other factors but these are the big ones). Also, different flours of different strengths (e.g., Caputo 00, all-purpose, KASL high-gluten, etc.) can have different fermentation windows. To make what you want to do work, you would, in effect, have to look for, or "design", your recipes to tolerate the durations of fermentation you want once the dough is taken out of the refrigerator. This might be easy if you made only one type of pizza, but if you make several different types, then each would have to have its own "design" to correspond to the desired overall window of fermentation.

I have made NY-style doughs (for 16-inch) with high-gluten flour with about 1/8 teaspoon IDY (instant dry yeast) and it made it through the day at room temperature without incident. I believe that some of buzz's deep-dish doughs can tolerate a long room-temperature fermentation (even after refrigeration), and if you use very small amounts of yeast for the Neapolitan style doughs (using, say, the Caputo 00) you should be able to go out many hours without overfermenting the dough.  As indicated above, room temperature is also a factor. A dough will usually ferment and rise more and faster in the summer than in the winter in those parts of the country where there are wide seasonal temperature swings. To a lesser extent, you can also use water temperature (of the water used in making the dough) to control the fermentation window (cooler water lengthens it and warmer water shortens it).

You might conclude that it isn't worth all the hassles jumping through so many hoops just to save an hour or so in preparation time. If your present approach works and you are entirely satisfied with it, I would be inclined to stick with it.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 08, 2005, 12:50:33 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: dough rising question.
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2005, 12:39:42 PM »
Dan,

I believe fellow member Les is the expert on the forum on how long a cold fermented dough can be left at room temperature before forming into a skin. I know that Les has used 8 or more hours and was shooting for over ten.

The conventional advice is to let the dough rise to about 50-55 degrees F, to prevent or minimize the possibility of bubbling or blistering of the dough during baking. Although the specific time for a dough to reach that temperature will depend on the dough's temperature coming out of the refrigerator and also the room temperature, most doughs coming out of the refrigerator will reach that temperature in about an hour or two and be usuable thereafter for about another few hours. Some people actually like bubbling in their crusts and will intentionally use short counter rest times. Or they will let the dough almost reach the point of overfermenting, because such a dough can also lead to bubbling in many instances. I have also read accounts on this forum of members going directly from the refrigerator to shaping without using a counter warmup period, or a very brief one, and not experiencing bubbling. So, each case can be different.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 08, 2005, 12:57:30 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline xclark

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Re: dough rising question.
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2005, 01:00:22 PM »
Thanks Pete and Dan for your response.  here's another question.  I have been taking the dough to work and refigerating it all day until an hour or two before I go home.  does agitating the dough (which is in a ziplock) by taking it back and forth to work and possibly squeezing it into a loaded fridge affect the way the dough will cook up? 

it kinda seems like this is a bad idea as I understand the fermentation process to be a very delicate one (as detailed in Pete's response above).

Thanks
-clark

also, Pete:  the dough that is currently sitting in my 70 degree kitchen all day is a Chicago Deep Dish style dough that has a lot (2 1/4 Tspn) of instant yeast.  does that sound like trouble to you? 
« Last Edit: November 08, 2005, 01:04:14 PM by xclark »

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: dough rising question.
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2005, 01:44:25 PM »
Clark,

I don't see any problem with the way you are handling your dough. If you want, you can also use a plastic or metal container with a fitted lid to minimize almost any dough management problem.

As for the amount of yeast you are using for the deep-dish (one packet), whether it is too much in your case depends in part on the size of the deep-dish pie you plan to make. With my versions of buzz's deep-dish dough recipe, I have been using about 2% IDY (instant dry yeast) by weight of flour, which comes to around 1 teaspoon to 1 1/2 teaspoons for a 9 1/2 inch deep-dish. The bigger your deep-dish, the less the problem with the amount of yeast you are using. I might also add that one of the things I have observed is that the oil in deep-dish doughs, which can run from 10-25% or more, by weight of flour, tends to restrain volume growth in the dough. Also, you will usually end up rolling or pressing the dough into the pan, so if the dough rises a lot during the day, I don't think that will be much of a problem. It's only if the high amount of yeast in the dough causes overfermenting of the dough that the results might not be as good and you could end up with a crust that is light colored and a bit on the cracker side. On the plus side, it could have a better flavor because of the increased byproducts of fermentation.

Without knowing more about your particular recipe and dough weight, etc., overall I think you should be OK but it will be interesting to hear back from you on your actual results. In the meantime, maybe one of our other members with more hands-on experience with room-temperature deep-dish doughs can speak more authoritatively on this topic than I.

Peter

Offline xclark

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Re: dough rising question -- a follow up - what went wrong?
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2005, 11:27:52 AM »
Pete (or anyone who might know)

okay, for reference, I was using the Chicago Style Butter and Garlic Deep-Dish Pizza Dough recipe from the book Pizza by Morgan and Gemignani.

well, I let the dough sit out for about in a cool room (about 65 degrees) for 10 hours after a 9 hour fridge rise.  cooked the pizza as directed (until the crust turned brown).  it cooked about 32 minutes in my gas oven with pizza stone in a 14" deep dish pan.

the dough was not good.  it turned out all crunchy like dense toast.  really stiff and crunchy.  it looked good coming out of the oven, but jeez.  this was the worst pie I've made yet!   I'm thinking the only variables from the recipe in the book were:
a) the long room temp rise
b) I incorrectly used Polenta cornmeal in the dough instead of 'medium-grind' cornmeal (or are they the same?)

did I just cook it too long? 
anyone have any ideas what went wrong?

Thanks,
-clark

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: dough rising question.
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2005, 03:06:55 PM »
clark,

I have the Morgan/Gemignano cookbook so I took a look at the recipe in relation to what you say you did. I also tried as best I could to calculate the baker's percents from the volume measurements given, and I also ran all the numbers through a deep-dish Excel spreadsheet I have been experimenting with. Since I don't have any bread flour on hand to weigh, I used a typical conversion of 4.5 ounces per cup of bread flour in order to calculate the baker's percents. In reality, the actual weight of the flour can be less or more depending on how one measures out flour and how loose or compact the flour is. Unfortunately, most recipes don't tell users how to measure ingredients and I suspect that that is one of the reasons why a lot of people end up with less than optimum results.

First of all, I don't think the substitution of polenta should have altered the crust all that much. It is a corn-derivative product, like cornmeal, and its weight as stated on the label is the same as cornmeal (1/4 c. equals 30g.). Polenta is also commonly used in deep-dish doughs.

I wondered about the butter, but when I checked its weight on a single-serving basis, I saw that it was nearly identical to an equal quantity of oil. Butter is also a common ingredient in deep-dish dough recipes. Since I don't use butter or polenta in my deep-dish doughs, I can't say whether that particular combination produced the crust characteristics you mentioned. However, the commentary for the recipe does indicate that the use of melted butter instead of oil in the dough yields "a golden crust that is light and especially crispy".

You seem to have followed the directions of the recipe correctly in pretty much each respect, but I did note that the recipe calls for using active dry yeast (ADY). You indicate that you used instant dry yeast (IDY). If that was the case, then you used too much yeast. The amount of IDY that you should have used to equal the specified amount of ADY should have been 1 1/2 t., not 2 1/4 t. The added amount of yeast would have caused the dough to rise more and at a faster rate, both in the refrigerator and at room temperature. The recipe indicates that once the dough is brought out of the refrigerator (if refrigeration was the option used), it is ready when it has doubled in volume. The instructions don't specifically say, but I assume the "doubling" includes whatever rise that took place in the refrigerator, which could be substantial with 2 1/4 teaspoons of IDY. So, unless the crust characteristics you got were what the authors intended, I think that the source of your problem was the excessive use of yeast and the long room-temperature rise once the dough came out of the refrigerator. Normally, a dough coming out of the refrigerator will get to room temperature within about an hour or two, and rising to double its initial size would not take a great deal longer beyond that and certainly not a total of 10 hours.

As with any recipe, it is possible to adapt it to achieve your objectives. If you would like to repeat the recipe and use a long room-temperature rise after the dough comes out of the refrigerator, you can drastically reduce the amount of yeast. That will slow the entire process down considerably and drag the fermentation out several more hours. You will have to do some experimenting to find the best amount of yeast to use, but I would guess that about 1/2 teaspoon of IDY might get you close.

FYI, I estimate that the total dough weight for your dough was around 28 ounces. When I ran that figure and the other figures (pan size and pan depth) through the spreadsheet, I got a thickness factor of a bit over 0.12. That is between "medium" and "thick" but in line with many deep-dish doughs.

Peter




Offline AKSteve

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Re: dough rising question.
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2005, 05:07:35 PM »
My question is about the amount of rise the dough gets while sitting in the fridge. I made enough dough on Sunday for 3 pizzas. When I took one piece of dough out on Monday, it had barely risen while in the fridge and the pizza itself was pretty flat. The other 2 balls of dough sat in the fridge until yesterday, and they were probably 50% larger when I took them out of the fridge. The resulting pizzas were also much better. My question is, should I use the size of the dough as an indication of when it's done fermenting in the fridge?

I also agree that a longer period of time at room temp after removing from the fridge results in better, more airy pizza crust. At least if you're hand shaping it. If you're using a roller it probably doesn't matter as you're flattening the dough all over again anyways.

Steve

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: dough rising question.
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2005, 06:34:27 PM »
Steve,

If you used the same dough recipe that you posted a while back at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1986.msg17485.html#msg17485 I don't see why the first dough ball didn't rise enough in the refrigerator. I estimate that the amount of instant dry yeast (IDY) used in that recipe is about 0.5% (by weight of flour), which should have been enough for, say, a 24-hour fermentation period in the refrigerator. You didn't indicate when precisely you took the dough out of the refrigerator and how long a counter rise you used after that, but unless you took it out much sooner than 24-hours and/or didn't let it warm up enough at room temperature, I would have thought that the dough would have fermented and risen enough to be usable and produce normal results. I know that outdoor temperatures in Anchorage have been running from low single digits to the low 'teens recently, and sometimes that can translate into lower indoors room temperatures also and sometimes even lower refrigerator temperatures (even here in Texas my room temperatures and refrigerator compartment temperature have been dropping as it has gotten cooler). I think that low dough temperature, however that happened, was most likely behind the sub-par performance of the first dough ball since the other dough balls performed normally after a longer fermentation period. I have noted from my own experience that a 5 degree F drop in finished dough temperature can slow down the fermentation more than one would imagine.

I might add that it isn't absolutely necessary that a dough ball rise while it is in the refrigerator. I use small amounts of yeast (around 0.25% IDY), and occasionally cold/cool water, in my NY style dough and from time to time it will rise little or not at all while in the refrigerator during the first day or so, and sometimes even longer, yet perform well when time comes to use it. In your case, if you have been using the same recipe long enough and have figured out how much rise is necessary to get good results, then you can use that benchmark as a reference for future purposes. Since your second and third dough balls worked better using this benchmark, then I would say that you may want to continue to do so in future efforts.

The only other possibility that comes to mind why the first dough ball didn't work out as well as the others is if the dough wasn't kneaded enough. If it was underkneaded, that can put more of the burden of fermentation and gluten development on the biochemical processes. Those processes can be slowed down just enough by the underkneading to prevent the dough from being sufficiently fermented. If this happened in your case, that could explain why the first dough ball didn't rise as much as the later ones and therefore didn't perform as well. This is a longshot, but I mention it anyway just in case it resonate with anything you did or observed.

Peter

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Offline AKSteve

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Re: dough rising question.
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2005, 06:50:23 PM »
Good point regarding the outside temp in Anchorage. It was actually close to 0 degrees F outside when the dough went into the fridge. It stayed close to 0 the entire time (over 24 hours) the first dough ball was in the fridge.  I didn't think to consider the effect this might have on my fridge temperature. By yesterday, it had warmed up to almost 30 degrees outside, so it's possible a warmer temp in the fridge may have caused the rise in the other 2 dough balls. In the future, I'll try to check the temp in my fridge using an instant read thermometer.

But, in general, you're saying the amount of rise isn't really an indicator of how "done" the dough is? Really, I was just wondering if maybe the volume increase of the dough rather than time spent in the fridge might be a way of deciding when the dough is ready to be used.

Steve

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: dough rising question.
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2005, 07:39:46 PM »
Steve,

The refrigerator compartment temperature won't change dramatically over a day or so but the refrigerator seems to operate more efficiently in cooler weather than warmer weather. In the summer, it is not uncommon for me to see a 45-50 degree F compartment temperature for my refrigerator when it is chugging away trying to keep everything cool. Today, with as much loading as normal (that is, a fair amount of food in the refrigerator), the compartment temperature was 42 degrees F.

Using the extent of rise of a dough can be used as an indicator of readiness in many instances, but not necessarily all. The indicator is strongest for a dough that has enough yeast in it that it will expand (typically double) fairly quickly, say, after 1 to 2 hours. With the right amount of yeast this can happen even when the dough is in the refrigerator. This is an occurrence that is very common with dough recipes that call for a lot of yeast and for a first rise, punchdown, and then possibly a final rise before using (usually the same day). However, if I use a very small amount of yeast, cool/cold water, etc., to produce a dough that is to be refrigerated as soon as it comes off the dough hook, I can end up with a dough that doesn't rise much at all, at least for a day. And it will work fine after that time. I have also made room-temperature fermented doughs and cold fermented (refrigerated) doughs using only natural preferments (that is, no commercial yeast) and gotten virtually no rising of the dough for many, many hours. You might get a small rise toward the end of the fermentation/maturation of the dough. The point of all this is that each dough in essence has an indicator of readiness "programmed" into it by the ingredients and processes used. With knowledge and experience, you learn what that indicator of readiness is for each dough recipe.

If you would like to read more on this topic, you might want to take a look at this thread, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1299.0.html.

Peter

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