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Author Topic: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!  (Read 800497 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #220 on: November 08, 2012, 05:35:38 PM »
Norma,

You were perhaps thinking of Craig's post at Reply 19 at  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19253.msg188333.html#msg188333. I was thinking of the MFB specs at http://www.conagrafoodservice.com/ProductDetail.do;jsessionid=33758431EC0708E4DE08D2E6B1E31816?productUpc=2700073651. Although the specs for MFB don't specify use for frying, I will take Craig's word for it that that product also works well for frying.

Peter

Peter,

I was thinking of Craigís post at Reply 19, but didnĎt recall what thread it was in.  Thanks for finding it. 

I also would take Craigís word if he said MFB works well for frying too.  I think I am going to make 3 Buddyís clone balls again for Tuesday.  I might try MFB in one pan to see what happens.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #221 on: November 09, 2012, 08:16:01 AM »
This article about Via 313ís Detroit style pizzas and says the oven temperature is 525 degrees F and the bake time is 15 minutes.

http://www.readthehorn.com/lifestyle/50918/saveur_seeking_via_313_detroit_style_pizza

I wonder why Via 313 applies the sauce after the bake.

In the video it also says the oven temperature is 525 degrees F for 15 minutes.



Via 313ís Bakerís Pride oven is also shown in the video.  In the video it says they use a two cheese blend.  It looks like Via 313 is baking their Detroit style pizzas on a thin pizza stone.  The 6th picture on yelp looks like the crumb is light and airy.  http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/via-313-pizza-austin?select=571KK5bmUn7n9fZZAva86g#NsjJNJcuELY9-TrE6EJLbA

I can understand a little bit more about why Via 313ís Detroit style pizzas bake differently than my deck oven, because they are using a different type of Bakerís Pride oven and a different type of pizza stone.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #222 on: November 09, 2012, 10:03:11 AM »
Norma,

Because Via 313 operates with limited space, I believe they decided to go with a Bakers Pride countertop oven. I don't know the exact model and age of the Bakers Pride oven that Via 313 is using, but it may be something along the lines of the models shown and described at http://www.bakerspride.com/specs/Hearthbake/HB_P44S_P44BL.pdf and at http://www.bakerspride.com/specs/Hearthbake/HB_DP2_DP2BL.pdf. The latter document goes so far as to say that the Model DP-2 is "Perfect for pan pizza". But, either way, the oven will dictate the temperatures and bake times. On the matter of the pizza stones, my understanding has always been that Bakers Pride uses ceramic stones for its ovens. In the case of the countertop units, the specs say that the stones are ceramic. In the case of the regular Bakers Pride deck ovens, the specs specifically mention that the stones are Cordierite. There will also be a difference in the thickness of the stones, as you noted. In the case of the countertop units, the stone thickness is 1/2". For the regular Bakers Pride deck ovens, the stones are 1 1/2". As you correctly noted, these differences will also dictate bake times.

As for the application of the pizza sauce after baking, it is possible that the low ceiling of the Bakers Pride countertop oven that Via 313 is using, along with a small cavity, results in overheating and excessive drying out of the sauce at a temperature of 525 degrees F for 15 minutes. Since the pizza is hot when it comes out of the oven, there should be no problem adding the sauce at that time. That will even retain the nice freshness of the tomatoes used in the sauce. When I was re-reading the Buddy's thread, I remember that steel_baker, who is no slouch at making Sicilian style pizzas, insisted that, in the case of the pizza that he had eaten at Buddy's, the cheese and the sauce were both added after the pizza had been baked, as is sometimes done with Sicilian style pizzas.  However, there was no evidence of this and he later agreed. In Via 313's case, I think the oven may have been the reason for adding the sauce later.

On the matter of the two-cheese blend used by Via 313, I was reminded of the many types of cheese blends that I read about over at the Buddy's thread. The choices that our members talked about included mozzarella cheese (which I believe some of the Detroit-area pizza operators use), Parmesan cheese (which steel_baker insisted Buddy's was using around the edges of the pan), provolone (which, like mozzarella cheese, is a pasta filata cheese that melts like mozzarella cheese), and cheddar cheese (mostly white cheddar cheese). Some of the members created actual blends but others kept them separate on the pizza, using one type of cheese for the center and another around the edges, as does Via 313.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 10:59:38 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #223 on: November 09, 2012, 11:33:59 AM »
Norma,

Because Via 313 operates with limited space, I believe they decided to go with a Bakers Pride countertop oven. I don't know the exact model and age of the Bakers Pride oven that Via 313 is using, but it may be something along the lines of the models shown and described at http://www.bakerspride.com/specs/Hearthbake/HB_P44S_P44BL.pdf and at http://www.bakerspride.com/specs/Hearthbake/HB_DP2_DP2BL.pdf. The latter document goes so far as to say that the Model DP-2 is "Perfect for pan pizza". But, either way, the oven will dictate the temperatures and bake times. On the matter of the pizza stones, my understanding has always been that Bakers Pride uses ceramic stones for its ovens. In the case of the countertop units, the specs say that the stones are ceramic. In the case of the regular Bakers Pride deck ovens, the specs specifically mention that the stones are Cordierite. There will also be a difference in the thickness of the stones, as you noted. In the case of the countertop units, the stone thickness is 1/2". For the regular Bakers Pride deck ovens, the stones are 1 1/2". As you correctly noted, these differences will also dictate bake times.

As for the application of the pizza sauce after baking, it is possible that the low ceiling of the Bakers Pride countertop oven that Via 313 is using, along with a small cavity, results in overheating and excessive drying out of the sauce at a temperature of 525 degrees F for 15 minutes. Since the pizza is hot when it comes out of the oven, there should be no problem adding the sauce at that time. That will even retain the nice freshness of the tomatoes used in the sauce. When I was re-reading the Buddy's thread, I remember that steel_baker, who is no slouch at making Sicilian style pizzas, insisted that, in the case of the pizza that he had eaten at Buddy's, the cheese and the sauce were both added after the pizza had been baked, as is sometimes done with Sicilian style pizzas.  However, there was no evidence of this and he later agreed. In Via 313's case, I think the oven may have been the reason for adding the sauce later.

On the matter of the two-cheese blend used by Via 313, I was reminded of the many types of cheese blends that I read about over at the Buddy's thread. The choices that our members talked about included mozzarella cheese (which I believe some of the Detroit-area pizza operators use), Parmesan cheese (which steel_baker insisted Buddy's was using around the edges of the pan), provolone (which, like mozzarella cheese, is a pasta filata cheese that melts like mozzarella cheese), and cheddar cheese (mostly white cheddar cheese). Some of the members created actual blends but others kept them separate on the pizza, using one type of cheese for the center and another around the edges, as does Via 313.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for your helpful information about Via 313 Bakers Pride Countertop oven.  I see the document you references goes as far as to say the the Model DP-2 is ďPerfect for pan pizzaĒ.  I can understand that ceramic stones would bake differently than Cordierite stones. 

I hadnít noted what steel_baker had posted about he about adding the sauce after the bake. 

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #224 on: November 09, 2012, 11:37:36 AM »
Another 3 dough balls were mixed this morning for more Buddyís clone attempts this evening, since family will be at my moms home this evening to see my brother and I also wanted them to try the Buddyís clone pizzas to see what they think of them.  I wasnít sure of how much yeast to use, so I just used the same formulation as the last time, but used really warm water.   The final dough temperature was 82.5 degrees F.  I left the dough balls sit out for 20 minutes before placing them in the fridge to start the fermentation a little since I am going to be making these pizza tonight.  The dough balls were place in the fridge at 11:00 AM.  The poppy seeds were placed on one dough ball to watch how it ferments until this evening.  I also want to try out my moms gas oven to see if I can get a crisper bottom crust.  I am going to pickup my IR gun and steel pan at market today and also pickup some of the AMPI mild white cheddar to combine with the brick cheese.  I donít want to use all of my brick cheese up too fast, so that is why I am adding some cheddar to the brick cheese.   I also want to see how the blend of the two cheeses melt and taste on the baked pizza. 

The mixing method is a little bit different for this attempt. The mixing method seemed to produce a less sticky dough.   Each dough ball is 277 grams again. 

After watching the below video I see the dough in steel pan in the video doesnít look like it is proofed very much.  Surely not like some of my attempts.  I know I am not trying to make a Via 313 Detroit style pizza, but the looks of their pizzas do look like Buddyís pizza, at least to me.  I am just using Via 313 videos to help me better understand on what to change in my methods of achieving a decent Buddyís clone, in any home oven, or my deck oven.

 

I think I would like to add pepperoni to two of the Buddyís attempts, but think if I weigh the pepperoni, the final bake weights still will be able to be figured out in weight losses. 

I am going to try the MFB lard, maybe Canola oil and corn oil to oil the steel pans.  I am not sure what temperature to set my moms oven at.  I might try my Cordierite baking stone.  If anyone has any ideas for me to try, let me know.

Norma

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #225 on: November 09, 2012, 01:21:03 PM »
I can understand that ceramic stones would bake differently than Cordierite stones. 

Norma,

As I understand it, Cordierite is a ceramic. But there are different types of ceramics and, in Bakers Pride's case, they may be using a different ceramic for their countertop ovens than for their regular deck ovens. My recollection from reading Bakers Pride specs in the past is that they say Cordierite when they mean Cordierite. That leads me to believe that they may be using a different ceramic for their countertop ovens. However, I stand to be corrected on this.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #226 on: November 09, 2012, 01:56:45 PM »
Norma,

As I understand it, Cordierite is a ceramic. But there are different types of ceramics and, in Bakers Pride's case, they may be using a different ceramic for their countertop ovens than for their regular deck ovens. My recollection from reading Bakers Pride specs in the past is that they say Cordierite when they mean Cordierite. That leads me to believe that they may be using a different ceramic for their countertop ovens. However, I stand to be corrected on this.

Peter

Peter,

I guess I got confused that Cordierite is a ceramic.  I donít understand enough about that.  Thanks for that info.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #227 on: November 09, 2012, 02:28:19 PM »
After watching the below video I see the dough in steel pan in the video doesnít look like it is proofed very much.  Surely not like some of my attempts.  I know I am not trying to make a Via 313 Detroit style pizza, but the looks of their pizzas do look like Buddyís pizza, at least to me.  I am just using Via 313 videos to help me better understand on what to change in my methods of achieving a decent Buddyís clone, in any home oven, or my deck oven.

 

Norma,

It is always useful to review the work of Zane and Brandon Hunt at Via 313, but they no doubt have created their own representation of the Detroit-style pizza just as did Shield's, Cloverleaf, Detroit Style Pizza Co and Loui's, all of whom owed their origins to Buddy's, the grandfather of the Detroit-style pizza. As an example, I read that Detroit Style Pizza Co uses a combination of mozzarella cheese and Jack cheese (however, note that their website says mozzarella and brick cheese, at http://detroitstylepizza.co/aboutus/). I believe that Shield's uses just brick cheese but that Loui's uses a blend of two cheeses (but no mozzarella according to the Slice review at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/09/louis-pizza-hazel-park-michigan-mi-detroit-thick-crust.html). As you know, Jet's, which also followed in the footsteps of the others, uses only mozzarella cheese (Grande). If you are interested, you can see some comparisons of the places mentioned above at http://www.lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=35487. Interestingly, in the LTH Forum piece, mention was made that Buddy's uses shaved Parmesan cheese on its pizzas. steel_baker insisted that his Buddy's pizza had Parmesan cheese at the edges. Ah, the mystery continues.

What Via 313 uses to make its Detroit-style pizza is perhaps also dictated by what ingredients are available to it from foodservice companies in the Austin area. For example, I wonder whether Via 313 uses brick cheese. Also, to my eye, the finished crust of the Via 313 pies shown at the Via 313 website at http://via313.com/ and in some of the videos look to be thinner than what Buddy's accomplishes with its emergency type dough.

Maybe you can put on your fake wig and glasses, get a few temporary tattoos, and go to Austin, act hippy, ply the Hunt brothers with your now famous Limoncello, show them your irresistible charm, and pry their secrets out of them :-D.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 07:26:13 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #228 on: November 09, 2012, 04:20:45 PM »
Norma,

In line with your efforts in this thread, you might note Tom Lehmann's recent post at Reply 22 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20523.msg222517.html#msg222517.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #229 on: November 09, 2012, 06:31:25 PM »
Norma,

It is always useful to review the work of Zane and Brandon Hunt at Via 313, but they no doubt have created their own representation of the Detroit-style pizza just as did Shield's, Cloverleaf, Detroit Style Pizza Co and Loui's, all of whom owed their origins to Buddy's, the grandfather of the Detroit-style pizza. As an example, I read that Detroit Style Pizza Co uses a combination of mozzarella cheese and Jack cheese. I believe that Shield's uses just brick cheese but that Loui's uses a blend of two cheeses. As you know, Jet's, which also followed in the footsteps of the others, uses only mozzarella cheese (Grande). If you are interested, you can see some comparisons of the places mentioned above at http://www.lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=35487. Interestingly, in the LTH Forum piece, mention was made that Buddy's uses shaved Parmesan cheese on its pizzas. steel_baker insisted that his Buddy's pizza had Parmesan cheese at the edges. Ah, the mystery continues.

What Via 313 uses to make its Detroit-style pizza is perhaps also dictated by what ingredients are available to it from foodservice companies in the Austin area. For example, I wonder whether Via 313 uses brick cheese. Also, to my eye, the finished crust of the Via 313 pies shown at the Via 313 website at http://via313.com/ and in some of the videos look to be thinner than what Buddy's accomplishes with its emergency type dough.

Maybe you can put on your fake wig and glasses, get a few temporary tattoos, and go to Austin, act hippy, ply the Hunt brothers with your now famous Limoncello, show them your irresistible charm, and pry their secrets out of them :-D.

Peter

Peter,

I agree it might be useful to review the work of Zane and Brandon Hunt, but no doubt they have created their own style of Detroit pizzas.  I know Jetís only uses Grande cheese because I had made some attempts at a Jetís pizza in that thread.  I did enjoy looking at the thread on the other forum.  I can see the mystery continues with the first poster saying that sharp cheese (shaved parmesan ďwhat the heckď) is put around the edges before the bake.  I find the one posters comments interesting in that he said he prefers L&B Spumoni Gardenís Sicilian style pizzas.  I also ate pizza there and I prefer the Buddyís clones much better than the L&B Sicilian style slices I had in NY. 

This whole thing does become rather confusing with the different Detroit style pizzas having different cheeses.  I am still really thinking about purchasing a real Buddyís pizza to try and get to the bottom of what they are really like.  I just havenít been pushed over the edge yet, but did spend a lot of time and money on trying to understand Mackís pizza, so I might just be crazy enough to purchase a parbaked Buddyís pizza.

I also think Via 313 might just purchase what ingredients that are available to them from the foodservice companies in the Austin area.  I see what you mean about the pizzas might be thinner at Via 313. 

I donít think I would fly the whole way to Austin to try Via 313 Detroit pizzas and get any information I could though.  I am crazy, but maybe not that crazy to go though all that trouble.   :-D  You live closer to Austin than I do, maybe you can also put on a get-up and find something out.   :-D


Norma,

In line with your efforts in this thread, you might note Tom Lehmann's recent post at Reply 22 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20523.msg222517.html#msg222517.

Peter

Thanks for the link to Tom Lehmannís recent post.  It is interesting what he had to say.

Norma

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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #230 on: November 09, 2012, 06:33:15 PM »
I looked at the spacing of the poppy seeds at 6:00 PM and by the measurement the dough ball did more than  double.  The dough balls are sitting out at room temperature now.  I did purchase Canola oil, so I have 3 things to try to get the bottom crisper, plus maybe a lower bake temperature from Tom Lehmannís recent post.

Norma
« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 09:14:44 AM by norma427 »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #231 on: November 09, 2012, 06:38:46 PM »
HA!   :-D
I would pay money to see Peter in a Norma look-a-like wig an glasses hanging around Via 313 Detroit acting hippie like......wow....a classic!!   8)
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #232 on: November 09, 2012, 06:58:46 PM »
HA!   :-D
I would pay money to see Peter in a Norma look-a-like wig an glasses hanging around Via 313 Detroit acting hippie like......wow....a classic!!   8)


Bob,

Me too, those pictures would be ďpricelessĒ!  ;D At least Peter would know the exact questions to ask.  I would like to hear his line of questioning.   

Norma

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #233 on: November 09, 2012, 07:01:48 PM »

 I would like to hear his line of questioning.   

Norma
And the voice he tries to use while asking the questions!  :D
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Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #234 on: November 10, 2012, 12:13:22 AM »
Out of the three oils I tried the MFB finally gave me a crunchy bottom crust.

Norma

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #235 on: November 10, 2012, 08:57:39 AM »
The 3 Buddyís clone attempts were made in my moms propane gas oven last evening.  My moms temperature knob might not be right, because I set her knob at 475 degrees F and in less than 30 minutes the temperature with my IR gun on my pizza stone was 538 degrees F.  I had baked in my moms gas oven before and her oven can get to much higher temperatures than my home oven.  I let the temperature come down a little on the pizza stone, but was baking these three attempts at about 496 degrees F.  The reasoning of why I tried my pizza stone instead of just putting these pizzas on a rack in the oven, was I wanted to see if my pizza stone in a home oven would baked the bottom better.  The pizza stone was on the second to the last rack position.

I had placed two of the dough balls in the steel pans before I went to my moms.  I had wanted to try no punch downs and no playing around with the dough in the steel pan to see if that would work.  It wasnít long after my one post with the measuring of the dough ball with the poppy seeds spacing that I placed the doughs in the pans.  The dough balls were very easy to place in the steel pans.  The third dough ball was placed in the steel pan after I had baked the first pizza, because I only have two 8Ēx10Ē steel pans.  By the time I went to place the third dough ball in the steel pan the dough ball did ferment pretty much and had developed a big bubble on the top.  It was still easy to place in the steel pan.

The first pizza is the one that had the canola oil in the pan.  The pizza turned out well and there was a little crispness to the bottom crust, but not enough. 

The second pizza that had the MFB to grease the steel pan turned out the best, in that the crumb was still very moist and the bottom crust was nice and crispy, but still was very easy to eat.  Score one for MFB!   ;D I think MFB is a really good choice to get bottom crispness, but will have to wait until I try it at market to see if I can achieve the same results.  Thanks Craig for posting that MFB is good for frying.   :chef:

The third pizza with corn oil to grease the pan didnít have any crispness, just like the ones I tried at market.  The bottom crust does look to me to be baked enough, but it was missing that crispness.

All of the pizzas did have good oven spring.  They all had 8 ounces of the blend of cheeses (AMPI mild white cheddar and Eddieís brick cheese) added and also 4 ounces of my market sauce.  The second and third pizzas had 2.5 ounces of pepperoni added under the cheese (the pepperoni was the brand (stick pepperoni) that Steve had purchased for me).

My mom, brother, one daughter, granddaughter, grandson, great-granddaughter and I all really liked these pizzas and we all agreed that the second pizza was the best.  My brother really liked this style of pizza and had never tasted anything like it before.  He really liked the nice moist crumb and the caramelized edges.

The first pizza weighed 1 lb. 3.4 ounces right out of the oven.  The second pizza weighed 1 lb. 6.8 ounces.  I didnít weigh the third pizza.

All of these pizza took between 11:53-14 minutes to bake.   

Norma

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #236 on: November 10, 2012, 08:59:24 AM »
Norma

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #237 on: November 10, 2012, 09:01:14 AM »
Norma

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #238 on: November 10, 2012, 09:02:18 AM »
Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Two Billís pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
« Reply #239 on: November 10, 2012, 09:04:39 AM »
Norma

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