Sourdough starter quantity predictive model

[Pete-zza]

I don't know why I didn't add degrees C when I originally made it. This isn't the most elegant solution, but it should do until I can go find the original file.

Craig,

FYI, I added a link to the C version in the post at:

Forum Calculators and Other Tools

Peter

[juniorballoon]

Do any of you create a levain for pizza? And if so, when you calculate how much starter to use do you use the amount of starter added to the levain or the total of the levain itself.

[PapaJawnz]

Do any of you create a levain for pizza? And if so, when you calculate how much starter to use do you use the amount of starter added to the levain or the total of the levain itself.

Use the % with mature starter per the chart based on flour weight in your recipe.  If you use the dough calculator it will figure it all out for you.  Since starter has both flour and water your hydration % of your starter is relevant to the calculations.

https://www.pizza.devlay.com/calculator

[TXCraig1]

Do any of you create a levain for pizza? And if so, when you calculate how much starter to use do you use the amount of starter added to the levain or the total of the levain itself.

Doesn't really matter how much you use. It just takes longer/shorter to get to fully mature.

[juniorballoon]

Doesn't really matter how much you use. It just takes longer/shorter to get to fully mature.

Not sure I understand the answers I'm getting. I understand how to use the chart to determine how much starter to use, temp and time. When making bread I make a levain and add that to the mix. A levain is much like a feeding of the mother starter, and so I am wondering if people make a levain and use the total weight of the levain as the amount of starter the chart calls for? Maybe no one makes a levain for pizza.

[TXCraig1]

As far as the chart is concerned, it doesn't make any difference if you use a levain or a starter. They are two ways to get to the same place.

For example,

1) take 90g flour, 90g water, and 20 g starter and make 200g of levain. Let it get fully active and use it all in your dough.
2) feed your starter at a 100% HR ratio. Let it get fully active and use 200g of it in your dough.

[Heikjo]

The amounts in pizza doughs are often smaller than in bread doughs, and you may only use the same flour, so a levain would not be much different from feeding the starter as you normally do, maybe a bit more.

The are three reasons I can think of to make a levain:

• To scale up the amount of starter you make.
• Use different kinds of flour than the starter is normally fed with.
• To change the hydration of the starter/levain you plan to use in a dough.

All three are more common in a bread dough, but there's nothing wrong with using it for pizza dough. Some people may have a wholemeal starter and not want too much wholemeal in their pizza dough, so they make a levain with a seed of wholemeal starter and feed it with whatever flour they use in the pizza dough.

Others want wholemeal in their pizza dough, but got a 100% white starter, and may want to make a levain fed with wholemeal.

I just use starter from my starter jar for a pizza dough. If I plan to make the dough at a time where my starter is not usually around it's peak, I may mix some in a different jar, but more likely just feed the starter to fit my dough timing.

A levain and starter is essentially the same thing and treated similarly in a recipe. The difference is amounts, flours and hydration.

[juniorballoon]

@TXCraig1 @Heikjo Thank you for the clarifications. This is what I thought as they seem to be the same, though as Heijko points out, the levain allows the option for small changes. In my case, since I've kept my starter in the fridge, making a levain has been a good way to make it more active before adding to bread dough. I figured I would try that with pizza, but I do take it to heart that bread is not pizza and wondered if it was common/uncommon to make a levain for pizza. Seems it is uncommon, likely as most here treat their mother better than I do.

I was planning to make pizza this weekend and checked my starter last night. It smelled faintly of nail polish remover. I did a feeding and left it on the counter. This morning it was moderately active and smelled much better.

[brooklynguy]

So I wanted to try 100% hydration with less than 1% starter for 48hr fermentation. I was able to knead it and shape but it's was a glob of mess after the 38 hours.

Was this due to the very low starter qty?

[TXCraig1]

So I wanted to try 100% hydration with less than 1% starter for 48hr fermentation. I was able to knead it and shape but it's was a glob of mess after the 38 hours.

Was this due to the very low starter qty?

Maybe you used too much. What % and at what temp? Also, some starters just destroy gluten. Have you used the starter for other things successfully?

[brooklynguy]

Maybe you used too much. What % and at what temp? Also, some starters just destroy gluten. Have you used the starter for other things successfully?

I've used starter and your model for years successfully. It was a very small batch as it was my first time at 100% hydration.

274g chefs flour
2 g starter
24 hours 60f
24 hours 70f

Thanks for the reply

[TXCraig1]

But to be clear, you've use that particular starter successfully before? It wasn't one you recently started, correct?

That's a tiny bit less than the model would predict -2.25g  (0.82%), but I'm sure that wasn't a factor. 

When you write " I was able to knead it and shape but it's was a glob of mess after the 38 hours," do you mean it could be handled before a bulk ferment, but during the bulk ferment it got too wet and sticky to handle?

[Heikjo]

I had a starter years ago that I used for 24-48 hour doughs no problem, then I switched more to IDY and shorter fermentation times. When I attempted a 48 hour dough some years later with a different starter, using the appropriate amount of starter, it became a sticky mess with no strength of structure. The starter worked fine for 6-8 hour RT bread doughs, but on the longer fermentation it made a mess of the dough.

I don't know what exactly cause this, but agree that some starters seems to be more problematic for longer fermentation times than others.

The hydration of the starter doesn't matter as long as you factor it into the recipe, but at such low amounts, the difference is perhaps 0.3-0.5% if you include it or not. In a bread recipe with 20% starter, it can have a big impact.

How have you been using the starter earlier? You only mention using a 100% hydration, which I assume means the starter, not the pizza dough. What have you been doing previously that worked? Fermentation time, temperature and amount of starter?

[TXCraig1]

You only mention using a 100% hydration, which I assume means the starter, not the pizza dough. 

Pretty sure he was referring to the dough.

[Heikjo]

Aha.

I don't know what I'd expect from a 48 hour 100% hydration dough in RT. A "glob of mess" would perhaps not surprise me, but I suppose it's doable with enough bench flour.

[TXCraig1]

I don't either - particularly with 2 days at room temp. I feel like it should be possible.

If it was me, the first thing I'd do is try the same recipe with about 0.01% IDY in place of the SD and see if I got the same result.

[FeCheF]

Looking to make sourdough starter to add more flavor to my pizza dough. I don't make pizza very often anymore, and i don't really bake bread, so i really don't want to keep maintaining and throwing away the discard. I read you can freeze discard/starter and just portion it out and then add the portions to fresh pizza dough whenever you need it. So i think i want to make a batch and freeze. My question is, what would be the best approach to do this? If i follow one of the popular guides on making sourdough starter, they suggest 120g flour to 120g water. Then after 3 days they want you to basicly throw away most of it and save 2 TBSP ( i am a bit angry they dont tell you what that 2 TBSP is in grams) anyway, then they want you to add 60g flour and 60g water , then rinse and repeat every day for 7 days.

Now my thought was to instead of throwing it out, just add another 120g flour and 120g water every day. I don't see a reason remove any if you have a large enough container to keep feeding. Does this sound right, or am i missing a reason to remove some just to feed it a little bit less flour/water?

I was also considering putting the discard every day into a container in the fridge, but im not sure which of these methods is going to give me the best flavor boost in my pizza dough?

[PapaJawnz]

I maintain ~100g of starter in my fridge but I use it at least every 3rd day.  Nothing is ever discarded.  I've even scraped my jar mostly clean and added flour and water plus enough time and off it goes.  Typically 10g starter, 50g water, 50g flour and the next batch is ready to go.  You could even go half of what I'm doing just use a small vessel.

Tldr why freeze when you can be ready when she is.

[Heikjo]

You have to remove something when making the starter. If you just keep adding, there will be too much "spent" flour and it won't work. You won't get those amounts of discard once the starter is up and running.

You can probably use the discard when making the starter for something, but don't expect it to contribute to much in a dough.

https://www.theperfectloaf.com/7-easy-steps-making-incredible-sourdough-starter-scratch/

I would not use discard in a pizza dough, but there are lots of ways you can use it. I usually make flatbread with seeds or pancakes.

[PapaJawnz]

Pancakes, waffles, English muffins, brownies, lots of ways to use that "flour and water" discard to enhance the flavor of non yeasty breads until it gets going then its all up to you.