Sourdough starter quantity predictive model

Started by TXCraig1, January 01, 2013, 01:53:26 PM

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TXCraig1

I'm serious when I say "pizza is not bread," and it's particularly true with sourdough. Things that work for making bread don't necessarily work for making pizza.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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PapaJawnz

I think sourdough makes the best bread and pizza.  I'm kinda surprised it's not more common in the pizza world.
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juniorballoon

Quote from: TXCraig1 on December 15, 2024, 05:44:17 AMUsing it out of the fridge will have a big effect. How long it's been in the fridge since it was last fully active will have a HUGE effect. The longer it's in the fridge, the weaker it will get, even with regular feedings.

The key to SD pizza, particularly when starting out, is to be very deliberate in what you do and keep your workflow the same every time.
My thought on using the "doubling value" is to create it based on a consistent starter practice, whatever that may be for anyone. If you store it in the fridge, or keep it at room temp, if you create a small 1:2:2 sample batch and use that to get your DV, while trying to keep other conditions,  age of starter, time since last feeding, temps as consistent as is possible, might yield a ballpark value to be used to determine ratios of starter to flour that can be paired with the chart.

I use your commercial yeast chart all the time to make pizza dough. Commercial yeast is easier to predict how it will react, where as SD seems to be variable based on a variety of factors. My starter is brand new and I plan (for now) to keep it in the fridge. If I can figure out, based on my process, that my starters activity level is above or below (seems a certainty it's below) the "average starter" the chart is based on it could help me figure out what ratio would work best to match the times and temps of the chart.

TXCraig1

Quote from: juniorballoon on December 15, 2024, 12:11:29 PMMy thought on using the "doubling value" is to create it based on a consistent starter practice, whatever that may be for anyone. If you store it in the fridge, or keep it at room temp, if you create a small 1:2:2 sample batch and use that to get your DV, while trying to keep other conditions,  age of starter, time since last feeding, temps as consistent as is possible, might yield a ballpark value to be used to determine ratios of starter to flour that can be paired with the chart.

Maybe, but I think you'd be far better off by bringing it to full activity first. After a couple weeks in the fridge, even if you feed it, it's going to go dormant, and you'll be looking at days to doubling and may even require multiple feedings, if not washings, before it's healthy enough to use.


QuoteI use your commercial yeast chart all the time to make pizza dough. Commercial yeast is easier to predict how it will react, where as SD seems to be variable based on a variety of factors. My starter is brand new and I plan (for now) to keep it in the fridge. If I can figure out, based on my process, that my starters activity level is above or below (seems a certainty it's below) the "average starter" the chart is based on it could help me figure out what ratio would work best to match the times and temps of the chart.

Commercial yeast is a known quantity that removes variables. Success with sourdough requires minimizing the variance in the variables you can control. You're wanting to go the other way and introduce even more variables that  you won't have any idea how to control.

I'm not a fan of it, but if you're going to keep your starter in the fridge, you might want to go with a hybrid dough that gets most of it's leavening from IDY.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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PapaJawnz

I keep my starter in the vegetable bin in my mini fridge.  It is at 43.5F currently.  It always seems to grow.  I typically move it to the fridge after fermenting at room temperature,once it's doubled in size, but it will easily triple.  I mix it down every time I use it which is 2-3 times a week.  I use 120g of starter each week on average.  I've even used mine after it's collapsed in the fridge and it always gives me a great leavaining.  Usually by that time I am down to about 10g of starter left, and that's when I feed it.  This starter is only about 14 months old now but still going very strong and productive.  I get similar results with each dough I make with it.  I have found that fermenting the doughs at 70F is working out great.  I was doing 65F for a while but I think the 70F fermentation gives a better dough.
Oven: Oster 10-in-1 Digital Air Fryer/Toaster Oven Combo (Max Temp 450F) - Steel: 12x12x0.25" A36 - Levain: Natural (started 11/7/23) - Mixer: Couple 'o Hands

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TXCraig1

There is no comparison between 1) taking it out of the fridge, feeding, doubling (or 3X) and putting it back in the fridge, and 2) taking it out of the fridge feeding and putting it back in the fridge.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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juniorballoon

Quote from: TXCraig1 on December 15, 2024, 12:45:07 PMMaybe, but I think you'd be far better off by bringing it to full activity first. After a couple weeks in the fridge, even if you feed it, it's going to go dormant, and you'll be looking at days to doubling and may even require multiple feedings, if not washings, before it's healthy enough to use.


Commercial yeast is a known quantity that removes variables. Success with sourdough requires minimizing the variance in the variables you can control. You're wanting to go the other way and introduce even more variables that  you won't have any idea how to control.

I'm not a fan of it, but if you're going to keep your starter in the fridge, you might want to go with a hybrid dough that gets most of it's leavening from IDY.
My goal is the opposite. I am hoping to reduce the variables to some known quantity. Their are either things I don't understand or am communicating poorly, or both.  :chef:

TXCraig1

What I meant was that if I understand what you're wanting to do*, you're going to increase the variables and thus decrease consistency and predictability. 

If you're going to work out of the fridge, you need to let it double at room temp after feeding and before returning it to the fridge as PapaJawnz mentioned. Even doing that, if you don't feed it on a regular schedule, you results will likely be unpredictable.


* my understanding of what you describe is to keep the starter in the fridge, take some out to seed a dough when needed, feed, and return to the fridge - never allowing the mother starter to get back to full health.




"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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TXCraig1

Quote from: PapaJawnz on December 15, 2024, 08:25:31 AMI think sourdough makes the best bread and pizza.  I'm kinda surprised it's not more common in the pizza world.

I'm not. It's a lot of work with little margin for error.  It's not popular for the same reason cold fermenting is.

I know a guy who started a pretty successful pizzeria with SD. After about a year, he changed to IDY because he wanted to be able to take a day off.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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TXCraig1

Quote from: juniorballoon on December 14, 2024, 11:54:20 AMRight now going with the mix it and stick it in the fridge for simplicity sake.

For pizza, the two are largely mutually exclusive.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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juniorballoon

#510
Quote from: TXCraig1 on December 16, 2024, 06:24:23 AMWhat I meant was that if I understand what you're wanting to do*, you're going to increase the variables and thus decrease consistency and predictability.

If you're going to work out of the fridge, you need to let it double at room temp after feeding and before returning it to the fridge as PapaJawnz mentioned. Even doing that, if you don't feed it on a regular schedule, you results will likely be unpredictable.


* my understanding of what you describe is to keep the starter in the fridge, take some out to seed a dough when needed, feed, and return to the fridge - never allowing the mother starter to get back to full health.





What I'm planning is even worse than what you describe. I don't plan to feed the mother before putting it back in the fridge until I need more mother. :D  Though when I feed it will sit at RT until it shows activity, and then back in the fridge.

I am under the impression that the mother will stay at a relatively stable base line of activity when in the fridge at least or several weeks.

This morning I removed 25g of starter, added 50g of water and flour and will let that double before using. Once doubled I would use it in a recipe for dough, either bread or pizza dough. I realize this may not be optimum for taste or rise. I read many sites on how to get started with SD baking, and many of them were so complicated it was difficult to follow. I ran across Ben Starr, who has a simple sourdough for lazy people method. I think he has a bit of an off putting style, but his method was easy to understand and seemed a good place to start.

I'm not concerned about having some failures, half the fun of all of this is experimenting to find what works for my style.

I don't think I'll post about this anymore as I don't want to clutter this thread with all of my stumblings.

I do really appreciate your input.

JB


TXCraig1

Start a new thread. I'm interested to follow how it goes as I don't remember anyone doing it like that before.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Pizza_Not_War

I always feed starter after use and put it straight into fridge. Works great as long as you are consistent. Basically the warm water and flour with a small amount of leftover starter do well before chilling.

juniorballoon

Sanity check on my math. Based on the chart, if I want a 24-25 hour rise at approx 68 degrees, I need 5% sourdough starter. For 1125 grams of flour that means I need 56.25 grams of starter, Yes?

TXCraig1

Quote from: juniorballoon on December 16, 2024, 05:10:35 PMSanity check on my math. Based on the chart, if I want a 24-25 hour rise at approx 68 degrees, I need 5% sourdough starter. For 1125 grams of flour that means I need 56.25 grams of starter, Yes?

Correct.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Meat Carbs Coffee

Quote from: TXCraig1 on January 06, 2013, 10:40:45 PMMitch came up with a great methodology for using the model data to compute starter% given multiple fermentation stages. This way you don't have to backtrack through the chart; you just plug in your numbers. The chart itself is still a great tool for making changes on the fly as I described above.

I set the model up so that up to 10 stages could be entered, not that anyone would do a 10 stage ferment per-se but rather so there would be the flexibility to more smoothly model the transitions between temperatures if desired. You don't have to jump straight from room temp to 64F if you don't want to, you could make an educated guess and stick in a couple intermediate temps and times if you like. However, this isn't necessary. Unused stages have no impact.

In the yellow cells, simply enter the time and temperature for each stage. For an unused stage, just make the time 0. It doesn't matter what the temperature is if the time is 0. The model will update the predicted starter quantity as you make changes. The other calculation the model shows is how much of the fermentation is occurring at each stage. This is the percent of flora activity not the percent of time. Enter a low temperature and a long time as one of the stages as an example, and you will see how it contributes a relatively small amount of the total fermentation.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuvMQbzk5INUdGZScWx6U2lYSEtZVkJuVGJiR19NaXc#gid=0
Hello @TXCraig1 is there a similar calculator for predicting bulk fermentation with a known starter % and the variables are stage duration and temperature? 

TXCraig1

Quote from: Meat Carbs Coffee on January 15, 2025, 05:02:54 PMHello @TXCraig1 is there a similar calculator for predicting bulk fermentation with a known starter % and the variables are stage duration and temperature?
Not that I know of for predicting bulk only for pizza. This is intended to cover both bulk and balls with the user deciding when to ball.

If I use the table for bread, I use it for predicting the bunk fermentation as it generally gets me to 1.8-2.0x.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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mschoonmaker

Hi @TXCraig1,

I recently acquired a "incubator" for the purpose of (mostly) cold fermenting, and it does not have the ability to set temps in Fahrenheit, only Celsius. Other than a basic F->C conversion, is there a chance you have a SD predictive chart that natively uses Celsius?

Perhaps that's the original basis, and the PM chart is converted?

Thanks in advance!

TXCraig1

I don't know why I didn't add degrees C when I originally made it. This isn't the most elegant solution, but it should do until I can go find the original file.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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mschoonmaker


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