"Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's

[GIBBY]

Hello. This is my first post here and I hope everyone has patience with me. Anyhow, here I go. My godfather used to be a Brinks armored car guy who used to pick up at Buddy's. Eventually he was asked by the then owners to become the manager. His wife and my mother became waitress there also. My dad used to take me there when I was just 6 months old and I would eat the capalete ? soup and pizza, so Buddy's has a place in my heart (and stomach). I haven't found a pizza I like better. I've been trying to find all the secret ingredients. I would ask my Godfather but I haven't seen him in many moons. Anyhow, I am now on a quest to get what I need to make them at home. I found the square pans at a restuarant supply store named Roselli's. They are 10X14 and cost $ 6.95 each. Those are considered the large pans or 8 slice square. They also carry the small pans. I did not notice the price. When my mom worked at Buddy's, customers would order two small pizzas because they wanted the corners because the crust was so good- nice and buttery.  They give you instructions when you buy the pans. Also once you use the pans you never wash them, you just wipe them clean. They are steel so they will rust. The Marhgerhita brand pepperoni was also available. Apparently there is only one flavor but two different types. A 25# box sliced or 10# box unsliced. I bought the former @ $75.00. I know that's alot of pizza's. The cheese is a blend that is made for Buddy's exclusively as stated earlier in the thread. I don't beleive that Mozzarella is used because it's usually stringy when you bite into it. Buddy's cheese is not in actuality. I beleive it's actually a Meunster cheese.  I bought a round tube of it that weighed almost 7 lbs-cost-$21. One website states they use Stanislaus brand tomato products. Roselli's had about 6 different blends from that compnay so the lady suggested the heavy type with basil that you mix a can with a half can of water. Or as she put it, 6  cans with 3 cans of water. I'm not making 9 gallons of sauce. I did ask if they were the suppliers to Buddy's but she said no. They use a premium flour but did not state which brand. I use to work for Coca-Cola and delivered to Roselli's a few times and they have about 20 different brands of flour in the warehouse so your guess is as good as mine. One thing I have seen is that when the pizza dough is in the pan, it is shiny . I think they wipe oil of some type on it. maybe olive? The bottom of the pan is also shiny. My godfather went on in later years to own two different restaurants and when the pans came back the the kitchen, he'd wipe out any residue, brushed them with oil and placed another ball of dough back in it.  Anyone reading this that hasn't had Buddy's pizza, the dough seems to be very airy with a lot of air pockets/bubbles. you'd have to see it to understand. I think the dough and the sauce are the keys to the recipe. I told my son that we might have to take a week off and sit in the Buddy's parking lot and wait to see who delivers or rummage though the garbage and look for clues. Investigative reporting at it's best. Or even better, bribe one of the kitchen helpers to tell us what are the ingredients. The hunt is ON!!!

[jeff v]

Welcome GIBBY. I'm looking forward to seeing your progress with your hunt. Please keep us updated.

Best,

Jeff

[aks801]

Welcome GIBBY. I'm looking forward to seeing your progress with your hunt. Please keep us updated.

Best,

Jeff

Same here, let us know!  My NY style pizzas I'm very satisfied with, but I'm nowhere close to my target with the Sicilian.

[PizzaHog]

Being a Detroiter (now a Detroit suburbanite) and growing up and living on these pizzas, I read this post with great interest.  Just to confirm and clarify a few points as this one of my favorite topics...
Buddy's was the original creator of the Detroit style under ownership of Gus Guerra.  Gus sold Buddy's and opened the Cloverleaf, and the pizza creation at Buddy's was taken over by Loui Tourtois.  Loui then left Buddy's and went to another small bar in Detroit called Shields, eventually leaving and opening his own pizzeria and bar, Loui's.  All this took place long ago (the timeline begins in the 40's), and today Buddy's and Shield's have expanded to multiple locations, Cloverleaf has a couple of carry out only branches, and only Loui's remains essentially unchanged.  The original Buddy's and Cloverleaf still exist, but the original Shield's is long gone.  These 4 remain the preeminent Detroit style pizza bars that all others are judged by. 
All these pizzas are rectangular and the "crust" is indeed formed by the cheese extending all the way to ends of the pan covering all the dough, cooking and even burning a bit, and flowing down whatever gap is created during the baking process.  Meat under the cheese is the standard with a non chunky, not complex sauce on top, often applied in 2 or 3 wide strips.  The dough is unique and I'm sure I do not yet know the proper terms to describe it, so my best attempt is that it ends up light, many small air bubbles present and crispy where it contacts the pan becoming less so toward the center (especially if really loaded down with toppings), soft and fairly easy to compress, creating a texture change from end to end on each piece.  I'm lost regarding any flavor descriptions (newbie thing).  Sauce's vary with diff levels of sweetness, but all seem quite simple.  The way it's applied, some bites contain no sauce at all, creating flavor changes from end to end of each piece as well.
Those pizza lovers fortunate (or just plain old enough like me) to have eaten the originals have noted changes over the years and expansions and debate which is best today.  IMHO, and those of my pizza loving friends, Loui's has remained truest to his roots with Buddy's and Cloverleaf (original locations only!) pretty close.  The last Shield's I had was a disappointment and haven't been back since, although that particular location is now gone and there are plenty of folks still touting Shield's, so maybe I will try them again.
Yes, Buscemi's, once a great pizza and sub party store chain, has degraded to a four letter word that smells bad.
I seem to recall reading that Loui's uses imported mozza (not whole I would assume) and question the use of Brick, at least the Brick commonly available at the Italian deli's.  My mom always used straight Brick, and at home temps and times, Brick was way more stretchy and tough.  Maybe Wisconsin is diff.   
I really appreciate all the input on this thread and will be putting it use soon attempting a Detroit style and will post the results.
Thanks for listening,
Hog

Edit:  Found this photo.

[steverino]

Gibby and Pizzahog -

I'm reposting something I posted on the first page.  I am a HUGE fan Of the Detroit style:

I'm personally a big fan of Loui's pizza.  It's on Dequindre, just north of nine mile.  I believe there is some intermingling history between Shield's, Buddy's and Loui's.  Like the pizzamakers worked together at some point, or their families, or something, and at some point there were separations.  All different pizzas, but very much "Detroit Style" in the similarity of the crusts.  I've been trying to replicate the Loui's crust for years.  I'm close, it's good, but not quite there.

[GIBBY]

Gibby and Pizzahog -

I'm reposting something I posted on the first page.  I am a HUGE fan Of the Detroit style:

I'm personally a big fan of Loui's pizza.  It's on Dequindre, just north of nine mile.  I believe there is some intermingling history between Shield's, Buddy's and Loui's.  Like the pizzamakers worked together at some point, or their families, or something, and at some point there were separations.  All different pizzas, but very much "Detroit Style" in the similarity of the crusts.  I've been trying to replicate the Loui's crust for years.  I'm close, it's good, but not quite there.

Yes, there is something special about the Detroit square deep dish pizza. As mentioned in my first post, I've been eating Buddy's since the ripe old age of 6 months. I have also eaten all the variations-Loui's, Sheilds and Cloverleaf. They all have their unique flavor- which, BTW, might be an addition or subtraction of just one element. But they all have that crispy crust that we love so much. as far as the Dough recipe goes there might be something simple we are missing while trying to recreate it.
Let's see?


Flour

Water

Yeast

Eggs

Sugar

Salt

Baking powder

Baking soda

Beer instead of water??? extra carbonation and yeast?

Olive oil or Veg oil?

Butter?

[GIBBY]

Being a Detroiter (now a Detroit suburbanite) and growing up and living on these pizzas, I read this post with great interest.  Just to confirm and clarify a few points as this one of my favorite topics...
Buddy's was the original creator of the Detroit style under ownership of Gus Guerra.  Gus sold Buddy's and opened the Cloverleaf, and the pizza creation at Buddy's was taken over by Loui Tourtois.  Loui then left Buddy's and went to another small bar in Detroit called Shields, eventually leaving and opening his own pizzeria and bar, Loui's.  All this took place long ago (the timeline begins in the 40's), and today Buddy's and Shield's have expanded to multiple locations, Cloverleaf has a couple of carry out only branches, and only Loui's remains essentially unchanged.  The original Buddy's and Cloverleaf still exist, but the original Shield's is long gone.  These 4 remain the preeminent Detroit style pizza bars that all others are judged by. 
All these pizzas are rectangular and the "crust" is indeed formed by the cheese extending all the way to ends of the pan covering all the dough, cooking and even burning a bit, and flowing down whatever gap is created during the baking process.  Meat under the cheese is the standard with a non chunky, not complex sauce on top, often applied in 2 or 3 wide strips.  The dough is unique and I'm sure I do not yet know the proper terms to describe it, so my best attempt is that it ends up light, many small air bubbles present and crispy where it contacts the pan becoming less so toward the center (especially if really loaded down with toppings), soft and fairly easy to compress, creating a texture change from end to end on each piece.  I'm lost regarding any flavor descriptions (newbie thing).  Sauce's vary with diff levels of sweetness, but all seem quite simple.  The way it's applied, some bites contain no sauce at all, creating flavor changes from end to end of each piece as well.
Those pizza lovers fortunate (or just plain old enough like me) to have eaten the originals have noted changes over the years and expansions and debate which is best today.  IMHO, and those of my pizza loving friends, Loui's has remained truest to his roots with Buddy's and Cloverleaf (original locations only!) pretty close.  The last Shield's I had was a disappointment and haven't been back since, although that particular location is now gone and there are plenty of folks still touting Shield's, so maybe I will try them again.
Yes, Buscemi's, once a great pizza and sub party store chain, has degraded to a four letter word that smells bad.
I seem to recall reading that Loui's uses imported mozza (not whole I would assume) and question the use of Brick, at least the Brick commonly available at the Italian deli's.  My mom always used straight Brick, and at home temps and times, Brick was way more stretchy and tough.  Maybe Wisconsin is diff.   
I really appreciate all the input on this thread and will be putting it use soon attempting a Detroit style and will post the results.
Thanks for listening,
Hog

Edit:  Found this photo.

Pizzahog, it nice to see fellow Detroitburbanites tell the tales. For the ones left wondering, The original Sheild's was mere city blocks east of Buddy's on McNichols ( 6 mile rd). Boy talk about a rivalry! I always got chased off the bocci courts. Those old Itlaians took their game seriously. I knew where the Dum Dum sucker box was though, so I didn't get too discouraged when they yelled at me . I bought and used Tuma brand Muenster. Non-greasy but needs a little more flavor. Might try and find some Wis brick.

[PizzaHog]

Hey Gibby
Yes, it is great to have quite a few Detroiter's (past and present) here tellin' the stories and trying to figure out that pizza.  My 85 yr old dad always talks about Loui's, but hasn't been there for many years although he eats pizza every week.  So I took him to his favorite Loui's a couple of weeks ago and dang that was good pie.  Not quite as crisp this time around but it is still the real deal.
My first dough ball just went into the fridge!  I plan to give it a day or two and have at it with my new Roselli's pan, and thanks again for that tip.  I'll keep my fingers crossed and post the details then.
By the way, Roselli's has Wisconsin Brick in the last cooler in the row on your left.  The lady there told me they will sell those types of cheese in half brick chunks so you don't have to buy the whole thing to experiment.
Good Luck!
Hog

[PizzaHog]

Version 1.00 completed!
First pizza since joining the forum and thanks again to everyone here for the fantastic info and advice.  First the details and results, then the inevitable questions.
Let me introduce the principals:

Dough (courtesy of sourdoughgirl in her tommys thread)

Flour (100%):    317.73 g  |  11.21 oz | 0.7 lbs               2.5 cups KAAP
Water (63%):    200.17 g  |  7.06 oz | 0.44 lbs               41 tsp = 3/4c+1Tblsp+2tsp
IDY (.33%):    1.05 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.35 tsp | 0.12 tbsp          1/4 tsp
Salt (1.5%):    4.77 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.99 tsp | 0.33 tbsp       1 tsp
Total (164.83%):   523.71 g | 18.47 oz | 1.15 lbs | TF = 0.13195
Bowl Residue 1.5%

House is not balmy this time of year so heated water to 105 degrees, dissolved salt, added flour and yeast to the Kitchen Aid, mixed/kneaded for 5 min on speed 1, (dough was at 95 at this point) 20 min rest, then in an oiled tuppy and in the fridge.  19 hours later, added 2 Tblsp canola to a 10 x 14 black steel pan, spread the dough cold, covered with plastic wrap for a 5 hour rise.

Sauce:

Crushed 6 in 1's with skins, added 1/2 tsp oregano, 1/4 tsp garlic powder, 1/8 tsp onion powder, 1/4 tsp salt and 1/8 tsp pepper.

Cheese:
15 oz total, half Wisconsin Brick, half provolone, applied in thirds as 1/3 straight Brick, 1/3 straight prov, 1/3 as a 50/50 blend.

Pepperoni:
1/2 stick of Margherita, defatted a bit.

The battle:

Peperoni down first, cheese next, 2 cups sauce on top applied in 2 strips.  Baked on 2nd to bottom rack in 490 degree pre heated oven for 13 min.

The winner:  Me!  This was a dang good pizza, actually the best I have ever made and it is far from my first.  Much less effort and time expended than ever before too.  Lots of tweaking indicated and still a long way to go to approach the Detroit target though.   

Tweaks I can handle:  A bit thinner dough, a bit less sauce and experiment with herb/spcies, a bit more peperoni, and continue trying cheese types as the Brick seemed to have little flavor and the prov is better, but not Detroitish.  I will also try a longer cold ferment, but I just couldn't wait any longer to get this first pie in the oven.

Tweaks I would appreciate any input on:  Getting the bottom more fried/crisp before the cheese on top browns.  Also, he dough was quite good and tender, just not the texture or crumb I am targeting.  The more I view and read here, the more I am leaning towards greater hydration.  Detroit pizzas completely contact the pan on the bottom-no air voids or wrinkles like from pressing the dough into the pan.  Makes me think the dough may be more of a pour than a press.  Also, the surface texture of the dough on the bottom has a unique pattern of smallish air bubbles that I have not seen in any other pics yet and the interior has a focaccia element to it.

So many variables and so many tasty experiments to devour.  This is gonna be fun!

[PizzaHog]

Version 1.01 attempted and improvement noted.  Can't say it is really any closer overall to a Detroit style than the last one, but definitely a better put together, balanced and tastier pizza.  The baked cheese on the crust edge thing is going in the right direction, but the dough texture and crumb continues to baffle.  Looks like I will spending some time at the local Cloverleaf carry out, covertly pumping the pizza cooks for info disguised as idle chit chat and maybe even some dumpster diving.

[Jake77]

I'm from the Flint area and I gotta admit I never knew there was such a thing as "Detroit Style" pizza, but I have eaten many copies of the very one you are trying to make up in that part of the state. I always thought it was called deep dish or pan pizza. The local place I worked in didn't make a Buddy's copy or I'd shoot the recipe out there for you. Does Buddy's still give free Pizza to Ticket holders if the Pistons score over 100 and win? I know that was like 20 years ago but some things stay the same. I don't live in Michigan anymore.

Also if you get it right or close enough or aw heck I gotta try this , I will definitely serve it for my Super Bowl party next year when the Lions are in it.... Okay back to reality, in the spring when the Wings win the cup again.

[GIBBY]

Geez Pizzahog, now you have me thinking. On faith alone I bought the 25# box of Margherita pepperoni but it was thin sliced-AAARRRGGGHHH!!!! I'm wondering if Buddy's actually takes the time to slice the sticks or do they have it special ordered? I know that the slices on their pizza is much thicker than what I bought. The Tuma brand Muenster cheese I used is very close but might need a little of somehthing else, maybe some Mozzarella. Someone on this site said Kraft makes the cheese blend just for Buddy"s. Wouldn't that be a kick in the butt that we couldn't get it? The pics of your pie seem a little on the thick side-maybe a little less dough and shove the dough up the sides and into the corners before putting on the stuff.. Looks tasty though.

[PizzaHog]

LOL Lions win the superbowl... I didn't know just the best square pizza in town had a name either till recently. 
Definitely agree the pep is cut thick Gibby.  I'll have to give the tuma a try.  Lot's of work to do with the dough but have some ideas...

[pjbear05]

OK I gave it a shot for the Superbowl aand here's my output

Dough:  Water, ADY, sugar, proof for 10 min..  KABF (Albertson's sell 5 lb bags) & salt, first mix.  Add 50/50 mixture Olive oil/butter, 2nd mix.  Turn out and 1st knead 10 min. form ball, into bowl, cover, warm place for  20 min., then in the 'frige overnight. Next day, knead again, back in the bowl, cover leave out at room temp.'til double.

  Grease pan with butter-period.  Black steel, or black enameled steel pans rule here for sure. 

Dough, cheese, topping, sauce, oven, scarf down.

Cheese: 2/3rd's Pollyo Whole Milk Mozz,1/3 Boar's Head Muenster-only OK-I need to find some Wisconsin Brick in South FL.

Sauce-Oh crap, in a jar started with an S, bought at a reatiler in Italian Foods-thicker than Cento,  thinner the Del Fratelli, but it was good-not too sweet and spiced just a touch

Topps. 1/2 pepp & virginia ham, 1/2 Hawaiian for the wife.

Dough a litlle heavy- outside of that and the cheese, my half still disappeared. Karen at 3/4's and saved the last for lunch next day.

Oh well, back to reading dough threads and cheese hunting.

[GIBBY]

O.K. Can everyone hear me beating my skull against the wall??? I should have read more into the Buddy's website description. Margherita brand pepperoni has a fine ground and a COARSE GROUND Duh!! I went to the Armour Ekrich website and will attempt to get where-to-buy info. But I still have a little less than 25# of thin fine ground left to use. Not that it's bad or anything but I'm seriously trying to recreate Buddy's flavor and the different grind may have something to do with that. The pepperoini is almost three times thicker than what I have now and about 1/4 th smaller in diameter. The hunt continues.....

[PizzaHog]

Easy there Gibby, no pizza related head injuries!  I didn't realize Margherita had 2 types and now I'm wondering what I used (all gone now, I'll never know), bit I will also look for the coarse ground.  I just bought the sticks so I could slice it thick, which I did, but it still didn't seem to have the level of flavor I expected.  If I find the coarse I will post where.
Hey, you can always put the thin sliced you have on top of the cheese.  I know it's not what you're going for, but thin peperoni all curled up and even a little burnt on the edge is mighty tasty.
Someone told me about an excellent pizza they had in Romeo from a place called Tomato Basil.  Sounds like you might be from around that neck of the woods.  Ever heard of it?

[GIBBY]

No, I haven't heard of it though I could probably take a ride by on my way home from work. It's most likely downtown/ main drag.

[PizzaHog]

Version 1.03.  Finally got the crunch, TF, and the best texture so far.  Experimentation continues...

[steverino]

PizzaHog-

Just a couple of tips from memory - I remember putting a couple of tablespoons of butter in the bottom of the pan, then putting the pan in the oven to melt the butter.  Than, I lay the dough into the pan, and spread it out.  In the process, some of the butter will leak up over the top.  I recall letting the dough rise for maybe half an hour, until it puffed up some.  Now, I put it into the hot oven on a pizza stone, for about 5 or 6 minutes.  The dough pulls away from the sides of the pan to form maybe an 1/8" - 1/4" gap. NOW, put on your meat, shrooms, etc. then GLOM on the cheese. Make sure the cheese goes all the way to the edges, and build it up a little around the rim, so as it melts, it fills in the gap.  The sauce technique I've had good luck with is to take a can of diced tomato, drain it well, put it in a blender, add some salt, pepper, oregano and garlic powder.  Whir it a bit, and taste it!  Adjust seasonings as necessary for your palate.  I like the sauce a little chunky, not pureed.  Lay the sauce generously on top, return to the oven.  If I recall correctly, I go about another 10 minutes on the stone, then move it up to the rack to finish.

I'm sorry if this is less than a tutorial, but I really go a lot by feel and taste.  I've achieved damn near a Loui's pizza using this method.  Perhaps this weekend I will go all out and document every step along the way, from dough to slice.  My wife would have to be involved in the process, which would probably make her nuts, which would, in turn, entertain me.

Oh wait - it's Valentine's Day Saturday. 

Hmmmmm.... could be a tough sell.  We'll see.

Love, peace, and pepperoni grease.

Steve

ETA:  It looks like you're kicking some serious ass already, however..

[PizzaHog]

Hey Steverino
Thanks for the tips, and I must be following in your footsteps since a lot of what you did is fairly close to what I did on the last attempt.
Now, if you could find it in your (and your lovely wife's) schedule and pizza laden heart to record all the details, well I for one would be eternally grateful.
I am still trying diff cheeses, tweaking the sauce, and altering the dough recipe, and the last pie was way better than the first, although not close enough to Loui's to post a recipe yet.  But with your tips and help, maybe soon...
Save a corner for me,
Hog