Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?

[Shawn W]

I'm not sure how I feel about this cook I posted on my Big Steel Keg forum. I took a NY style recipe I got from Bryan S (who said he spent a couple of years here developing it) a number of years ago and made it whole wheat. The initial ball looked dry and 'torn'. I added some water then let the mixer beat the hell out of it to incorporate the added water into it. I love the flavor of WW, but my crust just wasn't the same texture as white flour pies I have made. Could I have done something better or is it just the nature of WW vs. white flour?


[10 day cold ferment] Day 10 is FINALLY here! On parchment on a pizza screen (punched holes type) 550ºF 14 minutes on top rack with a BGE stone on the CI grate. This was a runny dough ... had to work fast (it didn't help it was 30ºC in my kitchen 0.0), used the steering wheel method to stretch, then onto parchment to finish stretching, round up and roll the rim. Then transfer to screen. Made two 16": pepperoni, sliced garlic, crimini 'shrooms and red bell pepper as well as a pesto, smoked chicken breast and sun-dried tomato pizza. The placement of the pan messed with my keg therm. Good thing I had it well stabilized for about an hour [at 600ºF] before I cooked them because the keg therm was showing 375ºF after I put them on so I can only guestimate they cooked between 525ºF and 575ºF for the majority of the cook.

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_191716_zpspadzwstr.jpg

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_193947_zpsb4o0uhco.jpg

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_195314_zps9jzlhpm3.jpg

(On Dinner Plate BTW)
http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_200110_zpsjoob1nvz.jpg

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_195825_zpszyjasks6.jpg

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_200122_zpsugjglq6q.jpg

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_200430_zpsxro1duru.jpg

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_201048_zpsg1qt20ib.jpg

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_201007_zps0fmz5lbs.jpg

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_202630_zps0rmo8426.jpg

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_202636_zpskenpwldg.jpg

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_203237_zpstxb9dfdq.jpg

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_203245_zpseqplnwd5.jpg

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_203745_zpscovivutf.jpg

I let the second one go two extra minutes and bottom was a bit more firm. I preferred the 14 minute crust.
http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_203839_zpsoajqw42a.jpg


I am thinking to try a 50%WW, 50% white version. ?

[theppgcowboy]

I love WW but it is what it is and we grind our own for bread but cannot make it work for pizza.  Wheat Montana makes a WW flour that is almost as easy to work as white flour if you are looking 100% WW.

[Shawn W]

I love WW but it is what it is and we grind our own for bread but cannot make it work for pizza.  Wheat Montana makes a WW flour that is almost as easy to work as white flour if you are looking 100% WW.

Kinda how I'm feeling about it too. I'll try 50/50 WW and unbleached white and see where that takes me. Thanks for the response!

[David Esq.]

You will barely even know there's WW in it. And if you use white whole wheat you may not know at all.

[deb415611]

You will barely even know there's WW in it. And if you use white whole wheat you may not know at all.

interesting, apparently I have been doing it wrong because I used ww and www quite a bit for a few years and I always knew it was there.  I made an acceptable pizza but never one I would term NY, it was what it was , whole wheat , even at a lower percentage.  What is your secret?

[mitchjg]

I do not understand.  I have made numerous breads with white flour and numerous with a combination of white flour and WW (usually White Whole Wheat).  I always can tell the difference.......

[David Esq.]

My "secret" is not to throw away good dough, use fresh flour and a slightly higher hydration.

[deb415611]

My "secret" is not to throw away good dough, use fresh flour and a slightly higher hydration.

what does throwing away dough have to do with it?

yes, I agree that ww needs slightly higher hydration but that doesn't make a NY style pizza or a pizza that you can't taste the ww

[woodmakesitgood]

I've made one pie with white ww dough...the crust had nice oven spring, a good looking crumb, nice browning.
But the texture and flavor was not to my taste, I could easily tell it was different.
I can't say exactly why it was displeasing except maybe to say there was a mealy quality to the texture. 

[Shawn W]

I've made one pie with white ww dough...the crust had nice oven spring, a good looking crumb, nice browning.
But the texture and flavor was not to my taste, I could easily tell it was different.
I can't say exactly why it was displeasing except maybe to say there was a mealy quality to the texture. 

That's my experience exactly. I'm in Canada, I bought a fresh bag of WW flour.

[Shawn W]

My "secret" is not to throw away good dough, use fresh flour and a slightly higher hydration.

That looks great!

This was my base for my unbleached white dough:
800g flour
470g water
22g salt
3g IDY
2T olive oil

Now, for the WW version, when the initial ball had formed it looked dry and torn. So I added 20g of water then beat the crap out of it until the water had reincorporated. After a 10 day cold ferment it was sticky, runny, then the 14 minute pie was fairly good, the 16 minute crust was kind of tough ... cracker-ish. They both had that whole wheat 'bitter'.

So I recognize it was over-mixed, instead of 20g what would you suggest for higher hydration initially for WW?

Thanks for the help!

No [IMG] tag??

[David Esq.]

Deb, what throwing away dough has to do with it is that you are too quick to declare failure.
Shawn, the bitter is almost certainly due to some combination of using red wheat or rancid wheat. Whole wheat goes bad relatively quickly.  Because of that, I bought a mill and grind my own as needed.
In fact, if I make 100% whole wheat sourdough waffles, I get no bitterness at all.

[Jersey Pie Boy]

The reality is that whole wheat is whole wheat..it is obvious, you can taste it, you can tell the texture, the feel. 

Let me be clear that I really do like whole wheat..I really do, and the vast majority of bread that I make is WW. Sometimes adding some rye. Hearty, heavy, rich and flavorful. (I do love non-whole wheat bread..it has such a more airy , lighter, and let's face it, just plain more delicious and better texture and taste..but there is a noticeable waistline difference. I'm very aware that there's one one small letter that can change Jersey Pie Boy, into Jersey Pig Boy)

And I've very successfully made whole wheat "pizza."  I'm proud of what I turned out. Villa Roma formulation, help from barryvabeach. Goiod flavor, deep crust, lots of hydration (over 100 percent I believe and not easy to work with)

But is it pizza? Not to me. Nope. Something else entirely. When I want pizza, I want one of the many types that most members here make. And that means very definitely not whole wheat. Bitter, by the way, is a matter of personal preference, or possibly genetics I don't have nearly as much sensitivity to it as my wife. In fact, I like it to an extent. Pass the broccoli rabe, please.

So David, enjoy your whole wheat. Grind it, grow it and harvest the grains if you like. But please don't expect us to go with the theory that it's virtually the same as non-whole grain. It just ain't so

[David Esq.]

Theory is not what I'm after. I don't t think I suggested 100% whole wheat would make a good pizza. But 30-50%? It only makes the pizza taste better. Just like a longer ferment.

[deb415611]

Jersey Pie Boy's post is right in line with my thinking on whole wheat and pizza. 

Deb, what throwing away dough has to do with it is that you are too quick to declare failure.

that has nothing to do with this thread, that's another totally unrelated topic.  Trying to bring it in here just doesn't make sense, I'm answering out experience with whole wheat.  You have no idea if I have made 1 pizza  or 300 or tested ww pizza recipes and procedures for a cookbook, so don't be so quick to discount my answer as giving up

[David Esq.]

Shawn, try the formula with 50% whole wheat and 50% Caputo and 65% hydration.  Mix for a few minutes, rest, knead for 3-5 minutes, rest and one more knead. Ball and stick in the fridge.   If you want to go the extra mile, mix the flour and water by itself and let it sit for 30-60 minutes and then knead in the rest of the ingredients, rest, knead, rest, knead and ball.

[mitchjg]

Shawn:

In reading this thread, I can see that you came here seeking to improve your 100% whole wheat pizza results.  It appears that you want to improve the texture and you want to improve the flavor (remove bitterness).

Assuming you want whole wheat in your pizza (for whatever reason floats your boat), then please do not assume that it will be the same, in flavor or texture, as a pizza made without whole wheat.  By going to 50% WW, You are eliminating a big chunk of the thing that was bothering you - so it will probably will please you more or displease you less.  It will be different.  Whether or not that pleases you is up to you.  The only way they will be the same (comparing to the pies you made without whole wheat) is if they are the same.  If you do not notice a difference, I am not sure why you would be bothering (unless it is for a difference you are seeking besides flavor and texture).

Sure, moving from 100% whole wheat to 50% whole wheat will change the result and change the texture you did not like (improve).  Using freshly ground and white whole wheat and other things may improve it further.  Starting from a base of 100% whole wheat and diluting the % whole wheat and "better" whole wheat will improve the texture since you are phasing out and improving the remaining whole wheat.  If your reach the point where it is pleasing you but it is still in there, great. 

Others here are telling you that, using a starting point of no whole wheat, adding whole wheat is a negative for taste and texture.  You, starting with 100% whole wheat will likely experience an improvement as you reduce it.

David believes he can help you get you to some place that is pleasing for you (or some level you want to settle with) with whole wheat in the pie.  Good luck.

Shifting gears, I can see you are baking pies in your Kamado grill.  You are getting a (somewhat surprisingly) even bake, top vs. bottom.  Quite unusual.  The problem with trying to make pizza in a Kamado grill is getting sufficient top heat.  It looks like you are offsetting the lack of top heat by cutting back on bottom heat with the use of a screen.

Unless your home oven is a problem for some reason, I would suggest you consider ditching using the Kamado.  You can read here in the forum about countless attempts to use one.  Everyone encounters the balancing issue because that it is how the grills are made (I have one, BTW).  They are not made for pizza with balanced heat generation.  Further, the amount of fuel you end up using is really, really high.  It is a great tool, just not a tool that is particularly compatible with good pizza.

If you use your home oven, with a decent pizza stone, you will probably find you can get can much better results than with the Kamado.  You are cooking in the 500s anyway and most ovens can achieve 500 or more.

Give it a try!

[theppgcowboy]

I love whole wheat bread that is ground fresh from wheat.  We have magic mill and the bread is fantastic.  It takes a lot of white flour to bring it into the line for a pizza crust that is tolerable to work. A 70/30 ww/w will come close with an elevated hydration. 

[David Esq.]

33% whole wheat pictured below and 50% pictures above. Since he suggested going 50/50 that is where I started. 

[theppgcowboy]

Both look great!