Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?

barryvabeach · July 15, 2015, 08:39:41 PM

Just wanted to chime in to say that there is a world of difference between the taste of "normal" aka red whole wheat, and white whole wheat. To me, the flavor of red whole wheat is a little grassy, and can be described as bitter, but white whole wheat has a similar flavor to bread flour. I have been eating mostly whole wheat so long that white bread has a sugary feel to it - not quite cotton candy, but heading in that direction.
Lately I have been making a sour sourdough version 100% white whole wheat, and many people have had and liked it - the sour has its own flavor component that my be overriding the wheat "flavor".

I think I posted once before that when I first tried a Villa recipe for 100% whole wheat in my regular oven, I was very unimpressed. I then saw that he was using a LBE and getting great char. Once I switched to a BS the taste of the Villa recipe improved dramatically. I think that a slow cook in a regular oven, for some reason, makes the flavor profile of whole wheat pretty different.

If you want to try a NY style, I would suggest start with your favorite recipe, and make it with 25% www and the rest regular flour, and then add water till you get a similar feel to the 100% white flour, then make it again, 50% 50%, again adding some extra water, then continue to move in that direction till you hit 100% white whole wheat. I have done that a few times when trying to convert a recipe from white flour to white whole wheat, and have usually been successful.

Shawn, I have the Bubba Keg, which is the prior version of the Big Steel Keg. I could never get enough top heat for my pies, but you are obviously doing much better than me.

David Esq. · July 15, 2015, 09:48:53 PM

Id like to see your successful 100% www pizza and a crumb shot I can see what you are achieving.

Shawn W · July 16, 2015, 03:17:14 AM

I truly appreciate EVERY response, thank you. I posted this thread initially in the NY forum where I thought it belonged. No worries here about moving it, sorry it was misplaced.

Second batch of balls are in the fridge ... see you in ten days

David Esq. · July 16, 2015, 05:49:12 AM

Ten days is a long time. Adding whole wheat speeds up fermentation time a lot. If you have he ability I do so, and it appears like it proofed nicely by then, you may want to try it at days 3-5.

norma427 · July 16, 2015, 06:04:33 AM

Quote from: Shawn W on July 16, 2015, 03:17:14 AM

Second batch of balls are in the fridge ... see you in ten days

Quote from: David Esq. on July 16, 2015, 05:49:12 AM
Ten days is a long time. Adding whole wheat speeds up fermentation time a lot. If you have he ability I do so, and it appears like it proofed nicely by then, you may want to try it at days 3-5.

Shawn,

Best of luck with you dough!

At one point in time I ground wheat from a field to make pizza and sprouted wheat. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14554.0 At Reply 122 there was a soaker and Ultragrain Whole Wheat flour was used to make a pizza. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14554.msg149044#msg149044 The pizza photos start at Reply 126 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14554.msg149244#msg149244

I agree with David that 10 days is a long time to ferment any dough unless you really know what you are doing.

Norma

Shawn W · July 17, 2015, 02:28:06 AM

Quote from: norma427 on July 16, 2015, 06:04:33 AM
Shawn,

Best of luck with you dough!

At one point in time I ground wheat from a field to make pizza and sprouted wheat. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14554.0 At Reply 122 there was a soaker and Ultragrain Whole Wheat flour was used to make a pizza. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14554.msg149044#msg149044 The pizza photos start at Reply 126 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14554.msg149244#msg149244

I agree with David that 10 days is a long time to ferment any dough unless you really know what you are doing.

Norma

Thanks Norma and David!

I didn't mention it previously but the recipe I use talks about different cold ferment durations, the author's preference was 10 days and listed his reasons, sounded good to me so that's what I went with. It uses reduced yeast than his 3-5 day version and the current effort is presently in my spare fridge at 36ºF (he said to use 34ºF-36ºF). Though to David's point the recipes were for Caputo or KA flour IIRC and didn't account for a 'whole wheat speeding up fermentation' variable.

I did make this recipe with white flour regularly for over a year, so change will be slow. I changed to 50% WW this time, I think I have to give the 100% WW one more stab with the adjusted water amount and without the crazy overmix from adding supplemental water after the ball had formed. Then maybe I'll try the slightly higher yeast, shorter cold ferment version of a 50/50.

Anyway, once I'm done playing with this I plan to experiment with some of your suggested recipes and maybe a couple different pie types from the recipes section. So thanks again for the suggestions!

Shawn W · July 17, 2015, 10:11:06 AM

Not exactly on topic but I found I still have pics of my 50/50 ww sourdough bagels I have been talking about in this post, love this pic:

David Esq. · July 17, 2015, 10:54:40 AM

Wow. A perfect home made bagel. Not easily achieved.

David Esq. · July 18, 2015, 02:34:36 PM

50% white whole wheat.

barryvabeach · July 19, 2015, 08:31:02 PM

David, nice pie. This is 100 % white whole wheat ( home milled ) sourdough .

Shawn W · July 21, 2015, 01:58:57 AM

nice looking pies guys!

Barry, I tried the sourdough I used to make the bagels with white flour NY pizza dough a couple times. Not very knowledgeable on sourdough but it didn't seem 'active' or 'aggressive' enough. Very little lift from it, no big bubbles in the dough either. Perhaps I didn't use enough starter, not sure. I think my starter worked for the 50/50 bagels due to the boil step before baking, sort of woke it up and got it moving. I haven't used it for years but I'm gonna wake it up again. I have dried some and saved it.

barryvabeach · July 21, 2015, 07:12:36 AM

Shawn, I tried and failed with sourdough a number of times. I don't have it mastered yet, but getting better results now that I have played with it more. Keep playing with it, it is worth it.

David Esq. · July 21, 2015, 07:35:19 AM

If you have a low frustration tolerance start with yeast until you get a dough that bakes up great. Then go to sourdough. If you just want to get the sourdough right, and won't quit because of a few setbacks then keep at it for sure.

Shawn W · July 24, 2015, 03:13:50 AM

Quote from: David Esq. on July 21, 2015, 07:35:19 AM
If you have a low frustration tolerance start with yeast until you get a dough that bakes up great. Then go to sourdough. If you just want to get the sourdough right, and won't quit because of a few setbacks then keep at it for sure.

I'm the 'get the sourdough right' guy. Sourdough is the bomb. I believe it to be healthier and I love the flavor nuance in the end product.

Question ... packaged yeast has been around 100 or less years - ish. Is authentic original NY style pizza then sourdough based or did it come to exist after packaged yeast?

David Esq. · July 24, 2015, 06:32:39 AM

My opinion is worthless here because I believe that there is no such thing as "authentic original New York style pizza" and that while there may be a small group of people who agree on what the term means, it is by no means a group that is large enough or influential enough to set a definition except perhaps among themselves, and even then there isn't agreement.
For the most part that small group of people seem to rely on what they remember eating as a kid. The original pizzerias such as Totonnos, Patsy's and John's can be eaten at today but it is anybody's guess if they make up their formulas and pies have been consistent from the early 1900s to today. Of course people are always staying that the pizza was better earlier in time. This may be true. It may be the nostalgia effect.
But, pizza supposedly came to NY in 1905 so they were not using instant yeast as many do today. So whether it is authentic or not, would no doubt depend on what you are talking about as well as when.

And, whether it was sourdough or yeast from the local brewer, I do not know. Probably the latter.

Pete-zza · July 24, 2015, 07:46:13 AM

David,

In case you are interested, there is a pretty good discussion on the evolution of the NY style pizza at this thread:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14920.msg148001#msg148001

Peter

David Esq. · July 24, 2015, 08:15:26 AM

It is a very detailed discussion, Pete. I think, in the end, I will come the same conclusion after reading through it. What original authentic NY style means depends on what and when you are talking about. Seems as though the discussion usually reverts to how pizza by the slice has evolved. But, with so many pizzerias there is not going to be a standard one can point to as "the" standard slice. And, of course, evolution by definition, means change, taking me back to it depends when you are talking about.

Shawn W · July 26, 2015, 12:34:57 AM

Thanks guys. In order to keep this thread from meandering I'll do some reading around sourdough then start another thread if I have any question about NY dough using sourdough.

Shawn W · July 26, 2015, 12:43:51 AM

Today I made my first 50/50 WW and unbleached white flour 16" pies. 10 day cold ferment. I liked the dough better. It was breadier, by comparison the 100% ww was more like cracker like. I enjoy the WW flavor. It was pouring rain today so I used the oven instead of the keg.

Pepperoni, mushroom, jalapeno, the other Alfredo Sauce, Spinach, slivered garlic, bbq chicken, mushrooms and sun dried tomato.

Happy with 50/50 ... now I'll try reducing the cold ferment time as suggested.

David Esq. · July 26, 2015, 05:08:31 AM

Looks beautiful. I can't bring myself to use all white flour anymore. Either it's 50% or 33% depending on whether I am making the Roberta dough with yeast or a Neapolitan with sourdough. It's a function of my pizza app. It breaks the flour into two pieces 2/3 and 1/3. In order to get 50/50 I have to add the two pieces and divide. If I just look at the screen it is idiot proof to get the 33% ratio.