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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #960 on: January 04, 2012, 11:56:37 AM »
Steve,

I mentioned to you yesterday that I thought your MM clone attempt tasted better than mine, because I thought your dough had fermented longer, but still retained the sweetness.  I would have thought the way that dough looked, that it would not have retained the sweetness in the crust, but it did.   :)

I like then name Stormin’ Steve for you  ;D, but I have already mentioned to you that I wanted to include Peter’s name for the MM clone pizzas in some way, because if it wouldn’t have been for Peter, neither of us would have been able to makes these MM clones.  I don’t know if Peter has any ideas for a name for his MM clone dough pizzas, but if he does, I would be interested in hearing what names or name he might have in mind.  Peter does deserve to have a pizza named after him after all the hard work he has done on the forum.  :chef:

I am glad Kayla, the pickiest of your neighborhood taste testers, did like your MM clone pizza at home.

Norma

Offline Ev

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #961 on: January 04, 2012, 01:01:45 PM »
Quote
Peter does deserve to have a pizza named after him after all the hard work he has done on the forum.

Well sure, but then there should be Dozens of pizzas named after Peter! :-D

Peter,
 Sorry, I forgot to address your sauce question. I used Normas' regular sauce on this pie. I don't recall any comments on it from the tasters but I can tell you this, it's an excellent sauce!
 Here are a couple freshly reheated slices from yesterdays pizza.
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #962 on: January 08, 2012, 06:00:54 PM »
Peter,

Your latest MM experiments with Steen’s 100% Pure Cane Syrup and the small dough ball were interesting.  

I think your posting that Steen’s might be perplexed by your questions is funny.  Steen’s sure didn’t know who they were dealing with all your knowledge.  You probably know more than they do about “sucrose equivalency” or sweetness than they do.   :-D

Glad to hear your pizza turned out well using the Steen’s product.  

I wonder if anyone is going to be able to purchase a real MM dough ball for you to be able to determine the hydration of MM dough.  

Norma
  I live 10 min. away from a Mellow Mushroom and have purchased their dough balls.They sell 3 different sizes and I would be happy to help ya'll out any way I can.
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #963 on: January 08, 2012, 06:02:23 PM »
 Now you guys got me interested.Is there a procedure to discover the hydration of a fully made dough ball? I often buy dough balls from a few local pizza shops and this would be useful information for me. I have a feeling you're going to tell me something so simple I'm going to be embarrassed......thanks!
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 06:39:41 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #964 on: January 08, 2012, 06:58:26 PM »
I live 10 min. away from a Mellow Mushroom and have purchased their dough balls.They sell 3 different sizes and I would be happy to help ya'll out any way I can.


Now you guys got me interested.Is there a procedure to discover the hydration of a fully made dough ball? I often buy dough balls from a few local pizza shops and this would be useful information for me. I have a feeling you're going to tell me something so simple I'm going to be embarrassed......thanks!

Chicago Bob,

Peter did the tests for finding the hydration at Reply 899 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg164194.html#msg164194  It wasn’t as simple as you might think.  If you read that post you will see what he did.  I think Peter would help you if you are willing to do the tests, since you are able to purchase dough balls from MM.

Norma

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #965 on: January 10, 2012, 03:59:27 PM »
For my latest MM clone dough experiment, I decided to test the use of a mixture of the Steen’s 100% Pure Cane Syrup and the Brer Rabbit Full Flavor molasses. What I was hoping to do was to replicate the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking molasses but using the Brer Rabbit Full Flavor molasses in lieu of the blackstrap molasses used in the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses. Initially, I started out with 17% of the molasses mixture but found it necessary to increase the amount of the Brer Rabbit Full Flavor molasses in order to get the desired degree of dough/crust coloration. I ended up with a total of 17.92% of the molasses blend, with about 85% of that being the Steen’s 100% Pure Cane Syrup and the remaining 15% being the Brer Rabbit Full Flavor molasses. Since the Brer Rabbit Full Flavor molasses is one (or maybe two) boils away from blackstrap molasses, it made sense that I might need more than the 10% blackstrap molasses that is used in the Golden Barrel product.

The remaining baker’s percents were 100% for the KABF/Hodgson Mill VWG (adjusted for 14.2% total protein content), 49.7% water (lowered from the prior 50% figure to compensate for the higher water content of the 17.92% Steen’s/Brer Rabbit mixture), 0.70% IDY, 1.5% salt, and 2.45% canola oil. The “adjusted” formula hydration that took into account the formula hydration and the moisture content of the Steen’s/Brer Rabbit mixture was 54.11%. The “effective” hydration that also took into account the canola oil was 56.56%. The sucrose equivalency value was 8.22%. I might add at this point that I made a follow-up inquiry at Steen’s to hope to be able to test that sucrose equivalency value more accurately only to be told that the holidays and a death in the family of the person that would have responded to my inquiry would delay that response for an indeterminate period.

Although I didn’t do a “hydration test” using my countertop toaster oven, I did calculate the percent of water in the dough formulation, and its value was 39.99%, or just shy of the 40% figure that I have been using for some time. That value was intentionally used to determine how much Steen’s 100% Pure Cane Syrup and Brer Rabbit Full Flavor molasses to use.

The MM clone dough was frozen for about three days and defrosted in the refrigerator compartment for about 2 ½ days. Once removed from the refrigerator, the dough was tempered at a room temperature of about 68 degrees F for about two hours. As with past MM clone doughs, I had no problem opening up the dough ball to form a skin. After dressing the pizza, it was baked on a pizza stone that had been placed on the lowest oven rack position for about an hour at 500 degrees F. I tried to keep the stone at that temperature for the entire bake period. It took about 8 minutes for the pizza to achieve the bottom crust coloration I was looking for and about a minute or so more on a higher oven rack position to get added top crust coloration and to help bake the toppings (veggies and pepperoni slices) more.

The finished pizza turned out well in just about all respects. However, for the above formulation, I think it might have been better to bake the pizza at a slightly higher oven temperature in order to get a better oven spring. This is something I have been playing around with from one experiment to another to see if there is an optimum bake protocol. From a sweetness standpoint, I found the finished crust to be noticeably sweet but not overwhelming.

Increasingly, I am coming to believe that MM is using a molasses product that is like the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses or a similar blend like the one I tested in the latest experiment and the prior one. I am having a difficult time believing that MM is using a basic molasses such as sold at retail like the Grandma’s and Brer Rabbit products. An “open kettle” molasses with high levels of “sugars” (suggesting a “fancy” grade) and just enough color to be able to use a lot of it without ending up with an overly dark dough and finished crust seems to make the most sense based on the experiments that I have conducted. Of course, for us to test this thesis we would need to know exactly what MM is using.

Peter

Offline Biz Markie

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #966 on: January 10, 2012, 04:44:09 PM »
Thanks for the report on your latest formula, Peter.

I agree 100% with your conclusions as well.  I haven't been tweaking too much, though I did try a blend with 6% Grandma's and 5% Lyle's Golden Syrup.  It was good, but not as good to my tastebuds as the Brer Rabbit Mild/Honey combo.  Last night I tried an 11% Grandma's which was quite good.  Compared to Brer Rabbit Mild, Grandma's is quite a bit like a "fancy" high-sugar type of molasses to me.  In fact I may almost prefer the more robust flavor of the Brer, even when used at a lower % and combined with another sweetener. 

This has been a very fun run and I am very pleased with the pies I've been churning out.  My next project is going to be a 100% whole wheat or multigrain dough. . yeeeeehaw

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #967 on: January 10, 2012, 05:16:16 PM »
Peter did the tests for finding the hydration at Reply 899 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg164194.html#msg164194  It wasn’t as simple as you might think.  If you read that post you will see what he did.  I think Peter would help you if you are willing to do the tests, since you are able to purchase dough balls from MM.

Norma,

The hydration test isn't really all that difficult. All you really need is a small jar lid that is about 2 1/2" in diameter and press a small ball that weighs 10 grams into a uniformly thin skin. I usually start by placing the 10-gram ball between folds of a clear plastic wrap and press the ball flat as much as possible with the fingers and palm of my hand. I then transfer the skin to the jar lid and, just using my fingers, press it the rest of the way out to the rim. The skin may be a bit elastic and shrink back a bit but if you let it rest from time to time you will get it to fit the jar lid.

With respect to the toaster oven, after the initial bake at a relatively high temperature to get the skin to expand and after splitting and piercing the baked skin, I try to keep the temperature as constant as possible, at around 212 degrees F. However, my toaster oven doesn't seem to have the best temperature regulation so I adjust the temperature from time to time to keep it around 200 degrees or so. You don't want to get the temperature too high because that can cause the skin to bake beyond the point of just driving out the moisture and you can end up with an overly charred/burnt piece of dough. It is better to keep the temperature on the lower side rather than the higher side and let the skin bake longer to compensate. One of the interesting things I found is that it isn't necessary to bake the skin for 12-16 hours. I tested the weight of my last baked skin several times during the bake and found that at some point the weight stabilizes. In my tests, I placed the jar lid with the skin directly on the center rack of my toaster oven. I tried placing it in a thin aluminum pie tin so that it wouldn't fall through the rack but found that the pie tin got to a temperature higher than the jar lid. So, now I just carefully put the jar lid with the skin directly on the center rack. BTW, I also found that it wasn't absolutely necessary that the initially baked skin be cleanly split into two. Sometimes the skin just doesn't balloon up. However, you should still pierce the baked skin to facilitate the moisture evaporation.

The most sensitive part of the test in my opinion is having the right scale to weigh the before and after numbers. My small digital scale has an accuracy of 0.1 gram. A better accuracy would be 0.01 gram.

There are a lot of things that you can do if you end up with an MM dough ball or two. For example, you can make two pizzas, one using an MM dough ball and one using one of your better MM clone doughs and, in so doing, get a sense of how they compare from a color and feel/handling/hydration standpoint. Since you have a deck oven, that would be the best oven to use since MM uses deck ovens. Both pizzas would be dressed and baked as identically as possible and be of the same size (with the same thickness factor). You might also reserve a decent-sized piece of an MM dough ball to use as a benchmark or reference for future dough color comparison purposes. That piece of dough will have to be defrosted when used to compare color since freezing causes the dough to change color at its outer surface, as we previously discussed. But once the color comparison is made, the dough can be refrozen. You should be able to do that over and over again. Of course, to do a hydration test you will need a 10-gram piece of the MM dough. You could do a hydration test with that 10-gram piece of dough at the same time as you do the same test with a 10-gram piece of your MM clone dough. Obviously, the larger the MM dough balls, the more tests you can conduct without running out of the dough.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #968 on: January 10, 2012, 07:58:55 PM »
Shortly after having made my post where I offered to help out by being able to obtain dough balls at MM for the purpose of learning their hydration numbers using Peter's very clever procedure,I realized that Norma has contributed a great deal to this thread also. So,I contacted Norma and she has graciously agreed to conduct the MM hydration test as soon as she receives the dough balls.I am also going to perform Peter's procedure and Norma and I will be reporting our individual findings here on this thread.I know that this is yet another of Peter's "brilliant babies" and given his workload I am just very happy to be able to be even slightly helpful.
  
  I feel that this new "tool" that Peter has come up with is going to be extremely useful indeed.Just think about how much trial and error this is going to eliminate. I am always trying new dough's from local pizza shops and grocery stores,when trying to replicate them at home...taking the hydration rate out of the equation is at least half the battle if not more! I think this is really great Peter, thanks!
  I look forward to posting my MM hydration rate findings soon......

  Bob
« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 08:14:02 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline CDNpielover

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #969 on: January 10, 2012, 08:26:02 PM »
essentially you want to dry the dough around 100 C until it comes to a constant mass.  I have actual lab drying ovens and analytical balances if anyone wants to send some dough to Canada.   :chef:

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #970 on: January 10, 2012, 08:41:02 PM »
Bob,

Thank you very much for the kind remarks. There have been a lot of twists and turns and dead ends and misdirections in this project, several of which were not of our own doing, but I think we are getting close. Norma has the oven, the flours and a plausible molasses product (the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses) so I think she is the perfect candidate to do further testing of the MM doughs in relation to her MM clone doughs.

I have discovered that there are certain things that are hard to divine from Nutrition Facts and this applies to the nutrition information that MM has posted at its website. Hydration is one of such items and the amount of yeast is another. Having spent a lot of time with the MM nutrition information, I feel reasonably confident of the amounts of oil and sodium (from salt and the flour) and cholesterol. And I think the amounts of yeast we have been using are workable given what we know about how the MM frozen dough balls are used. Remember, however, that the hydration test only tells us the percent of water in the dough, not the actual formula hydration. As I have discussed, that water comes from multiple sources. However, if you and/or Norma come up with similar results, those results should help confirm the numbers I have come up with. It is possible that your "before" and "after" numbers will be different than mine, because of the use of different scales, but if the amount of water in the real MM doughs is around 40%, which is the number that I have gotten from several hydration tests using my MM clone dough formulations, and confirmed by calculations, that might confirm the formula hydration that Norma and I and others have been using and also the amount of molasses product that MM is using. There will always be issues of brands and of sources, such as for the flour and molasses, but those are beyond our control. There will also be oven issues, especially when trying to adapt MM clone doughs to home ovens.

BTW, which MM location will you be going to for their dough balls? And thanks for all of your help.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #971 on: January 10, 2012, 09:52:48 PM »
Wow, you guys sure have been busy while I was away today.   :-D

Thanks Peter for giving me the directions again to determine the hydration.  I might have to purchase a better scale for the tests, because my kitchen scale isn’t the best, and my market scale doesn’t weight in grams.  I do have a toaster oven, but don’t know how accurate it is.  I also will have to get my IR thermometer at market to see if my toaster oven is accurate.

Thanks so much Bob, for offering to send me the real test dough balls from MM.  :) I also appreciate you helping with this thread.  I look forward to working with you!

I will post more tomorrow.

This was another MM clone pizza made today.

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #972 on: January 10, 2012, 09:54:05 PM »
Norma

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #973 on: January 10, 2012, 10:32:13 PM »
Peter,

I am pleased to contribute in any way that I can. Thank you for pointing out that this hydration test does not provide a formula percentage. Are the water amounts in other basic dough ingredients; various flours,yeast,salt,sugar,ect. readily available to the general public? Do we already know these weights here on the forum;if so, then it would only be a matter of doing some basic math to come up with a formula percentage,no?

My local MM restaurant is in Durham,NC.. Directly across the street from the Durham Bulls baseball park. After I got home today with 3 dough balls I was quite concerned that they might have sold me some "blown out" dough. They just didn't appear to be as soft and pillow like as I had remembered them to be...although it has been over a year since I last had one. Within minutes of putting them in the car I could smell a nice strong yeasty/beer smell.And when I touched them at home they were VERY cold.The guy who sold them to me said they make their dough the night before for use the next day.But I'm tell'in ya,Peter,these dough balls of mine seemed very deflated. I let one sit out on the counter and after about 2 hrs. it was looking much better...close to double in size.Does that mean it  was not "blown" and still usable?

I have photo's of everything I'm talking about and am now going to make my first attempt at posting pic's on this site. Thanks so much for all your help,Peter!

Bob
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #974 on: January 10, 2012, 11:02:14 PM »
One more try at this resizing thing!  :o
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #975 on: January 10, 2012, 11:14:22 PM »
I am now "optimized" and it barely even hurt!  :P   Yeee-ha!!  Lord,there goes the neighborhood.....
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #976 on: January 11, 2012, 08:26:09 AM »
Bob,

Great to see you can post pictures!  ;D Wow, to see real MM dough balls is intereting!   8)

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #977 on: January 11, 2012, 09:34:59 AM »
I am pleased to contribute in any way that I can. Thank you for pointing out that this hydration test does not provide a formula percentage. Are the water amounts in other basic dough ingredients; various flours,yeast,salt,sugar,ect. readily available to the general public? Do we already know these weights here on the forum;if so, then it would only be a matter of doing some basic math to come up with a formula percentage,no?

My local MM restaurant is in Durham,NC.. Directly across the street from the Durham Bulls baseball park. After I got home today with 3 dough balls I was quite concerned that they might have sold me some "blown out" dough. They just didn't appear to be as soft and pillow like as I had remembered them to be...although it has been over a year since I last had one. Within minutes of putting them in the car I could smell a nice strong yeasty/beer smell.And when I touched them at home they were VERY cold.The guy who sold them to me said they make their dough the night before for use the next day.But I'm tell'in ya,Peter,these dough balls of mine seemed very deflated. I let one sit out on the counter and after about 2 hrs. it was looking much better...close to double in size.Does that mean it  was not "blown" and still usable?

Bob,

My favorite place to research ingredients is the nutritiondata.self.com website at http://nutritiondata.self.com/. To answer your question on the water content of the different ingredients used in a pizza dough, whether it is an MM dough or any other dough, the main sources of water in a dough formulation is the formula water and the flour (or flour blend). In the case of the MM dough using a liquid form of molasses, there will also be a water component to that product. As noted below, the moisture contents of ingredients like sugar, salt and dry yeast are negligible.

Just about all basic white flours in the U.S. have a moisture content of 14%. That number can change depending on what happens between the time the flour leaves the mill and reaches the end user. How the flour is stored and the type of storage facilities (heated, air-conditioned, etc.) can affect the moisture content of the flour, and once a bag of flour is opened and exposed to the ambient air, that can cause the moisture content to rise or fall. From what I have read, the changes might not be dramatic--maybe a couple percent or so over a fair amount of time (i.e., not instantaneously). To know the moisture content of a flour at any given instant, you would have to conduct some kind of test to drive out the moisture in a flour sample and weigh the flour after all of the moisture has been evaporated out of the sample. I tried that with a sample of KABF and got a value of 14.2% but for my calculations most recently I have been using the generic rated value of 14%. For vital wheat gluten, I have been using the generic value of moisture content from the nutritiondata.self.com website, which is 8.2%. The moisture content of a generic molasses is around 22%. When I did a hydration test for a retail molasses, I got 21.875%. I was told by an employee at Steen's that their 100% Pure Cane Syrup is about 25%. That is the number I have been using for that product.

For other ingredients like salt, sugar and dry yeast, they have only trace amounts of moisture. For the amounts of those ingredients that we would use to make a typical MM clone dough, the amounts of water in those ingredients would be so small as to be of any concern. Fresh yeast has considerably more water than dry yeast (fresh yeast is about 70% water) and, if used in large quantity, one would want to adjust the formula hydration to compensate for that water. This is a moot case for us with the MM clone doughs because we have been using IDY. But, even if we were to use fresh yeast, the amount of water in the yeast would still be quite small in the amounts we would use in a typical MM clone dough and would be of no concern. You would have to make commercial size batches of dough to warrant adjustment of the total water content of the dough.

Ideally, in procuring dough balls from MM, one would want to ask for frozen dough balls, not defrosted dough balls. Defrosting the dough balls starts the fermentation process. That process can move quite quickly once the dough balls start to warm up since frozen dough balls, even those that are flash frozen at very low temperatures, include more yeast than fresh, unfrozen dough balls. Freezing causes damage to the yeast as the water in the dough freezes and expands and ruptures some of the yeast cells. To offset that damage, more yeast is used in such doughs to begin with. Most commercially produced frozen dough balls tend to go downhill quite fast and are typically used within a three day period. However, Ev (Steve) has shown that MM clone dough balls he has made can last a few days beyond that window. I do not know what window MM specifies to its franchisees.

For purposes of conducting a hydration test on a piece of an MM dough ball, the time one would want to do that is right after the dough ball has been defrosted for the first time and a small piece of dough can be carved out of the dough ball. Ideally, you would want to ship Norma frozen dough balls, whether they are frozen MM dough balls that you have held in your freezer pending shipment or re-balled and refrozen defrosted MM dough balls if that is your only option. Maybe this is not practical for cost or other considerations.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #978 on: January 11, 2012, 02:01:09 PM »
Peter,

I was just reading some back posts on this thread and noticed a lot of discussion concerning the brand of mollasses MM is using.If this hasn't been determined yet I could go down there to my local MM and prolly be able to find out for you.Not a problem! The guy told me yesterday that they make the dough balls there the night before for tomorrows use so there must be a container of mollasses sitting around there somewhere,no?

Bob
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #979 on: January 11, 2012, 02:12:22 PM »
I was just reading some back posts on this thread and noticed a lot of discussion concerning the brand of mollasses MM is using.If this hasn't been determined yet I could go down there to my local MM and prolly be able to find out for you.Not a problem! The guy told me yesterday that they make the dough balls there the night before for tomorrows use so there must be a container of mollasses sitting around there somewhere,no?

Bob,

To the best of my knowledge, the only fresh MM dough balls that are used in the MM chain are at MM locations in the general Atlanta area, and those dough balls are from the commissary where MM makes all of its dough. I am not aware of any MM location that makes its own dough on site. I was once told that at a Texas MM location but it turned out not to be true (it was confirmed by an MM employee I spoke with at corporate headquarters in Georgia). What the employee you spoke with may have meant is that they remove the dough balls from the freezer and allow them to defrost for a day before using. Some locations apparently use a two-day defrost period.

The above said, I don't want to discourage you from asking, if only to confirm what I believe to be the practice of MM franchisees with respect to the MM dough balls.

Peter

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