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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1100 on: January 20, 2012, 08:17:15 AM »
Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1101 on: January 20, 2012, 08:24:13 AM »
The MM clone gluten mass, when finished baking and cut apart, did have one tiny spot in the middle that did feel a little moist, but the MM gluten mass when baked was altogether hard.  After leaving the cut open baked MM clone gluten mass sit out it also became hard at the tiny spot.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1102 on: January 20, 2012, 08:27:04 AM »
The 6 oz. KASL and Power Flour dough balls with 3 oz. of water added also went well in the tests.  After mixing and kneading the dough balls I left them sit for about 2 hours, before trying to wash the starch out of both of them.  Both of these dough balls took longer for the water to run clear than the MM doughs.  If I had to guess, I would think that was because they did weigh more.  The time for the water to run clear was about 15 minutes of continuously running cold water, kneading, and squeezing the dough balls.  After the water ran clear I gently patted them with papers towels to remove as much water as I could.  The resulting weighs of the gluten masses were 4.1 ounces for the KASL gluten mass and 3.8 ounces for the Power Flour gluten mass.  They are now in plastic bags labeled in the refrigerator for a gluten mass bake test sometime this weekend.  As can be seen, there is no brown color in these two gluten masses, so they are not like the MM gluten masses.  I guess it can be concluded that the brown color comes from the molasses in the MM gluten masses.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1103 on: January 20, 2012, 08:29:19 AM »
Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1104 on: January 20, 2012, 08:30:29 AM »
Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1105 on: January 20, 2012, 08:33:37 AM »
These are the pictures of the MM dough ball and the MM clone dough ball since they have been reballed.  The one picture shows the leftover small baseball size balls for future use for reference to color.  I did coat  both dough balls with cornmeal.  These two dough balls will be used to try and make pizzas tonight if nothing happens in the meantime.

Thanks Bob, for giving me the opportunity to play around with a MM dough ball.  ;D I sure am having a lot of fun!   :P Hopefully, the tests with the other MM dough ball Tuesday will also go well.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1106 on: January 20, 2012, 08:56:19 AM »
Norma,

It certainly looks like you have been having fun with all the experiments. I have also felt the same way with all the little experiments I have tried, whether it is a hydration test, a gluten mass test, a molasses test or flour test.

Can you tell me which baked gluten ball was bigger than the other, and also which gluten ball is which in Reply 1100 and how the halves match up?

Last night, I also conducted another gluten mass test, this time using the KABF flour by itself (that is, without any vital wheat gluten). I also used 6 ounces of KABF and 3 ounces of water (for a 257-gram dough ball). I kneaded the dough ball for five minutes and then let it rest for 15 minutes before washing everything away until the water ran clear. It took me 18 minutes to complete the test. The final verdict (after drying the gluten mass on a paper towel for a minute) was that the KABF gluten mass weighed 76 grams, or 2.68 ounces. At least the gluten mass weights for the KASL, the Power flour and the KABF are in the right pecking order. Sometime today, I'd like to relate those numbers to the MM and MM clone numbers to see if the latter fit the pecking order also after adjusting for the different dough ball weights if that is doable.

Peter

« Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 09:01:15 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1107 on: January 20, 2012, 09:09:04 AM »
Peter would you help me?  Could you give me an educated (you) guess as to how many gallons of "molasses" that the Atlant MM Comissary uses each week? Thanks. ;D
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1108 on: January 20, 2012, 10:03:30 AM »
Norma,

It certainly looks like you have been having fun with all the experiments. I have also felt the same way with all the little experiments I have tried, whether it is a hydration test, a gluten mass test, a molasses test or flour test.

Can you tell me which baked gluten ball was bigger than the other, and also which gluten ball is which in Reply 1100 and how the halves match up?

Last night, I also conducted another gluten mass test, this time using the KABF flour by itself (that is, without any vital wheat gluten). I also used 6 ounces of KABF and 3 ounces of water (for a 257-gram dough ball). I kneaded the dough ball for five minutes and then let it rest for 15 minutes before washing everything away until the water ran clear. It took me 18 minutes to complete the test. The final verdict (after drying the gluten mass on a paper towel for a minute) was that the KABF gluten mass weighed 76 grams, or 2.68 ounces. At least the gluten mass weights for the KASL, the Power flour and the KABF are in the right pecking order. Sometime today, I'd like to relate those numbers to the MM and MM clone numbers to see if the latter fit the pecking order also after adjusting for the different dough ball weights if that is doable.

Peter



Peter,

I really have been having a lot of fun, like you have, in trying these experiments and seeing what happens.   ;D

As for the baked gluten mass doughs in Reply 1100 second picture down http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg168387.html#msg168387  the one on the right hand side is the MM baked gluten mass and the one on the left is the MM clone baked gluten mass.  If they would be put back together, I would just take the top part (at the top of the picture) of each one, and place them on the bottom part.  I donít know why the MM baked gluten mass did explode and get bigger. 

Great to hear you also conducted a gluten mass test with KABF by itself.  :) I see you also had to use more time to make the water run clear when trying to get the starch and other things out of the gluten mass.  I also see the final verdict of your weight of your gluten mass was smaller than mine. 

Are you going to try a gluten mass bake test on your KABF gluten mass?  I sure want to see what happens with mine.

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1109 on: January 20, 2012, 10:20:32 AM »
Are you going to try a gluten mass bake test on your KABF gluten mass?  I sure want to see what happens with mine.

Norma,

When I was done with the test, I discarded the KABF gluten mass. I did wonder later, however, whether it would be possible to incorporate such a gluten mass into another dough to increase its gluten content, as a substitute for using vital wheat gluten.  Maybe the gluten mass could be torn into small pieces to improve its incorporation into another dough. Possibly that is something for a future experiment.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 10:22:19 AM by Pete-zza »

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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1110 on: January 20, 2012, 10:27:08 AM »
Norma,

When I was done with the test, I discarded the KABF gluten mass. I did wonder later, however, whether it would be possible to incorporate such a gluten mass into another dough to increase its gluten content, as a substitute for using vital wheat gluten.  Maybe the gluten mass could be torn into small pieces to improve its incorporation into another dough. Possibly that is something for a future experiment.

Peter

Peter,

I didnít think about trying to incorporate a gluten mass into another dough to increase its gluten content, but that was good thinking on your part.  That could be an experiment for a later date.

I only was amazed to see how a small gluten mass bakes up so well and explodes without any yeast in the gluten mass.  If you could only take that gluten mass and somehow transform the dried crumb into a moist crumb, I would think that would make a very good pizza. 

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1111 on: January 20, 2012, 02:39:11 PM »
Norma,

Here are the numbers for the gluten mass tests for KASL, Power flour and KABF. You did the tests for the KASL and the Power flour. I did the test for the KABF. All of the doughs weighed 9 ounces, and the hydration value was 50% (3 ounces of water for 6 ounces of flour).

KASL: 4.1 ounces of gluten
Power: 3.8 ounces of gluten
KABF: 2.68 ounces of gluten

Your numbers seem to be more in line than my number for the KABF. For example, your numbers would suggest that the protein content of the Power flour is 13.16%, or roughly 13.2%. But with a variance on the positive side of 0.3%, that would bring the protein content of the Power flour to 13.5%. The disparity between my number for the KABF and your numbers might mean that we are not in sync with our washing methods. If you have some KABF, maybe sometime you can run your own test on that flour using the same approach as you used for the KASL and Power flours. I think I can now see why someone felt it necessary to invent the Glutomatic machine (http://www.perten.com/Products/Glutomatic/) to do these kinds of tests.

I also looked at the data you gave for the MM dough and your MM clone dough. We know that the hydration for your MM clone dough is 50%, and we suspect that the MM dough has a similar hydration, or one close to it. However, the dough samples for those tests were for 5-ounce dough balls, not 9-ounce dough balls. But, even if we extrapolate the MM dough and MM clone dough values linearly to 9 ounces, that doesn't take into account that the amounts of flour in the two doughs were most likely different than the 6 ounces of flour used for the above tests. I am going to try to see if I can come up with new numbers that might allow us to compare apples with apples.

With respect to the different volume expansions of the two gluten balls that you observed, it is possible that the MM gluten ball was bigger than the MM clone gluten ball because the two gluten balls were not at the same stage. If, for example, the MM gluten ball from the MM dough had a long fermentation where there was more gas and a gluten structure that was attacked by protease enzymes, and by contrast your MM gluten ball came from the MM clone dough with less fermentation and less protease damage, it is possible that the MM gluten ball was more extensible and thus more amenable to expansion. As you know, a long fermented dough can often result in large bubbles forming not only in the skins but also in the finished crust. Most of our MM clone dough balls have been pretty much well behaved so long as we used them within a day or two of defrosting. The MM doughs you received from Bob travelled some distance to reach you and may have been fermenting at a pretty good rate by the time you received them, and thereafter. At one point, I thought that perhaps the MM dough had better kneading than what can be achieved using a noncommercial mixer but after 15 minutes or more of kneading and squeezing during the washing process, I would think that the gluten structures would have been completely rearranged and realigned.

One further note. From you photos, it looks like the MM gluten mass is lighter in color than the MM clone gluten mass. Was that, in fact, your observation when the two gluten masses were side by side? If so, this would seem to suggest that MM is using a lighter colored molasses product--lighter than even the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses that you have been using. I have been playing around with dough formulations premised on using a lower protein flour than a high-gluten flour but I can't confirm the use of such a flour from the tests conducted to date. So, for your comparison test at market next Tuesday, you might use the same dough formulation that you used for your latest tests but use 19 ounces in the expanded dough calculating tool, along with the same baker's percents as you used for that formulation. If I get some epiphany between now and then on the type of flour that MM might be using based on the numbers we have collected, I will let you know.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1112 on: January 20, 2012, 04:03:56 PM »
Norma,

Following up on my last post, I reworked the numbers you got from your gluten mass tests for the MM dough and the MM clone dough. First, I determined how much flour was in 5 ounces of the dough used for the MM clone dough. For that amount of dough, you arrived at 43.65 grams (1.54 ounces) of gluten. I then extrapolated that amount of gluten to the 6 ounces of flour that was used in the 9-ounce dough ball that you used for your most recent KASL and Power flour gluten mass tests. The adjusted value of gluten was 3.088 ounces. I then did the same calculations for the MM dough, with the assumption that that dough had the same amount of flour as your MM clone dough. The adjusted value of gluten I got for that calculation was 2.96 ounces, based on your gluten value of 41.83 grams, or 1.48 ounces.

In actuality, based on the hydration tests you did on the MM dough, I believe that the actual hydration of the MM dough may be a bit higher than the 50% figure we have been using. That would mean a bit more flour in the MM dough. For example, if MM is using 50.5% hydration, the gluten value would be 2.93 ounces. But, with either scenario, comparing the MM gluten value with the MM clone gluten value would seem to suggest that MM is using a flour with a protein content of around 13.5-13.6%. I don't know if this is the epiphany that I was hoping for and that all of the stars and the planets are now in proper alignment but that is what I have taken away from all of the tests and numbers and the MM Nutrition Facts we have at this point.

To add to the above, since we now know through Bob's help that a small MM dough ball weighs around 11.2 ounces instead of 12 ounces, that means that the baker's percents for the oil and salt and molasses have to go up, since they would now be in relation to a smaller amount of flour. Also, the numbers have to fit the MM Nutrition Facts as best as I have been able to understand and use them. I should also mention that using the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses in the amount that would be needed to fit the MM Nutrition Facts, and particularly the amount of sugars and carbohydrates, is likely to lead to a darker dough than before. This leads me to believe that MM is using a very light molasses product, or at least the ones we have been testing so far, with the possible exception of the Steen's 100% Pure Cane Syrup, which is an essentially open pit molasses. In due course, I will test out the color issue with the Steen's.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1113 on: January 20, 2012, 05:19:45 PM »
Peter,

Maybe I should have said something but I did notice that a few pages back you had suddenly started saying 50% instead of the 40% that you had originaly been saying. Remember telling me how long you had waited to hear a confirmation when I said that my hydration test yielded
40% too.  And then when Norma did her test from the dough I sent her she posted a pic with a 6 gram dehydrated piece sitting on her new mini scale and I came on and told her that was the exact same weight that I got.


Bob
« Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 05:30:34 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1114 on: January 20, 2012, 05:30:58 PM »
Norma,

Here are the numbers for the gluten mass tests for KASL, Power flour and KABF. You did the tests for the KASL and the Power flour. I did the test for the KABF. All of the doughs weighed 9 ounces, and the hydration value was 50% (3 ounces of water for 6 ounces of flour).

KASL: 4.1 ounces of gluten
Power: 3.8 ounces of gluten
KABF: 2.68 ounces of gluten

Your numbers seem to be more in line than my number for the KABF. For example, your numbers would suggest that the protein content of the Power flour is 13.16%, or roughly 13.2%. But with a variance on the positive side of 0.3%, that would bring the protein content of the Power flour to 13.5%. The disparity between my number for the KABF and your numbers might mean that we are not in sync with our washing methods. If you have some KABF, maybe sometime you can run your own test on that flour using the same approach as you used for the KASL and Power flours. I think I can now see why someone felt it necessary to invent the Glutomatic machine (http://www.perten.com/Products/Glutomatic/) to do these kinds of tests.

I also looked at the data you gave for the MM dough and your MM clone dough. We know that the hydration for your MM clone dough is 50%, and we suspect that the MM dough has a similar hydration, or one close to it. However, the dough samples for those tests were for 5-ounce dough balls, not 9-ounce dough balls. But, even if we extrapolate the MM dough and MM clone dough values linearly to 9 ounces, that doesn't take into account that the amounts of flour in the two doughs were most likely different than the 6 ounces of flour used for the above tests. I am going to try to see if I can come up with new numbers that might allow us to compare apples with apples.

With respect to the different volume expansions of the two gluten balls that you observed, it is possible that the MM gluten ball was bigger than the MM clone gluten ball because the two gluten balls were not at the same stage. If, for example, the MM gluten ball from the MM dough had a long fermentation where there was more gas and a gluten structure that was attacked by protease enzymes, and by contrast your MM gluten ball came from the MM clone dough with less fermentation and less protease damage, it is possible that the MM gluten ball was more extensible and thus more amenable to expansion. As you know, a long fermented dough can often result in large bubbles forming not only in the skins but also in the finished crust. Most of our MM clone dough balls have been pretty much well behaved so long as we used them within a day or two of defrosting. The MM doughs you received from Bob travelled some distance to reach you and may have been fermenting at a pretty good rate by the time you received them, and thereafter. At one point, I thought that perhaps the MM dough had better kneading than what can be achieved using a noncommercial mixer but after 15 minutes or more of kneading and squeezing during the washing process, I would think that the gluten structures would have been completely rearranged and realigned.

One further note. From you photos, it looks like the MM gluten mass is lighter in color than the MM clone gluten mass. Was that, in fact, your observation when the two gluten masses were side by side? If so, this would seem to suggest that MM is using a lighter colored molasses product--lighter than even the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses that you have been using. I have been playing around with dough formulations premised on using a lower protein flour than a high-gluten flour but I can't confirm the use of such a flour from the tests conducted to date. So, for your comparison test at market next Tuesday, you might use the same dough formulation that you used for your latest tests but use 18 ounces in the expanded dough calculating tool, along with the same baker's percents as you used for that formulation. If I get some epiphany between now and then on the type of flour that MM might be using based on the numbers we have collected, I will let you know.

Peter


Peter,

I already had this written so I am just going to post it, and then read your next posts.

I can understand that the disparity between your number for the KABF and my numbers might mean we are not in sync with our washing methods.  I do have KABF on hand at home, so I could run a gluten mass test on that flour this weekend, maybe as soon as tomorrow.  Is there something that I might have missed in doing the gluten mass test except the washing method?  You donít think my longer rest period (2 hrs.) had anything to do with getting different numbers do you?  I also can see why someone felt it necessary to invent the Glutomatic machine to do those kinds of tests.

I also can understand that the different volume expansions of the two gluten balls in the gluten baked test might have expanded differently form the different fermentation times.  I do believe since the dough balls Bob sent me might have been in different stages of fermentation than my MM clone dough balls.  It took 4 days from the time Bob sent them to me until they arrived.  I posted before they were flat when they arrived.  I donít know if the dough balls were frozen when Bob sent to me or if they were unfrozen.  Maybe Bob can fill in that missing information.

I really donít understand what you mean by after 15 minutes or more of kneading and squeezing during the washing process you would think that the gluten structure would have been completely rearranged and realigned?  Do you mean by your methods of washing you changed the gluten structure?  At least that is what I understood from your post.

Yes, the MM gluten mass did look a little lighter in color than the MM clone gluten mass.  That was my observation when the two gluten masses were side by side.  Thanks for telling me to use 18 ounces in the expanded dough calculation tool, but to keep my other numbers the same for Tuesday comparison test.  What size pizza is that going to make?

Norma

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1115 on: January 20, 2012, 05:40:15 PM »
Maybe I should have said something but I did notice that a few pages back you had suddenly started saying 50% instead of the 60% that you had originaly been saying. Remember telling me how long you had waited to hear a confirmation when I said that my hydration test yielded 60% too.  And then when Norma did her test from the dough I sent her she posted a pic with a 4gram dehydrated piece sitting on her new mini scale and I came on and told her that was the exact same weight that I got.

Bob,

I believe that I have been consistent. The 50% figure is the formula hydration, which is the weight of the formula water divided by the weight of the formula flour. The 60% figure represents the weight of the dough sample (10 grams in our case) after all of the water is driven out by baking (a final value of 6 grams). That water comes to 40% (4 grams) and represents the sum of the moisture in the flour, the water in the molasses product, and the formula hydration. The 50% and 60% numbers relate to two different things.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1116 on: January 20, 2012, 05:44:42 PM »
Norma,

Yes the dough I sent you was frozen, there should have been two freezer packs in that box.Remember I told you I was not pleased with ups on this shipment? I sent them on Friday and got an email notice from them on Monday afternoon confirming they had left Durham here at 3am MONDAY MORNING !! ::)

Bob
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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1117 on: January 20, 2012, 05:46:42 PM »
Peter,

I understand. Just trying to be of help.
What about if I just went down to MM and bought an UNcooked small plain cheese?

Bob
« Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 05:53:50 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline norma427

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1118 on: January 20, 2012, 05:53:31 PM »
Norma,

Following up on my last post, I reworked the numbers you got from your gluten mass tests for the MM dough and the MM clone dough. First, I determined how much flour was in 5 ounces of the dough used for the MM clone dough. For that amount of dough, you arrived at 43.65 grams (1.54 ounces) of gluten. I then extrapolated that amount of gluten to the 6 ounces of flour that was used in the 9-ounce dough ball that you used for your most recent KASL and Power flour gluten mass tests. The adjusted value of gluten was 3.088 ounces. I then did the same calculations for the MM dough, with the assumption that that dough had the same amount of flour as your MM clone dough. The adjusted value of gluten I got for that calculation was 2.96 ounces, based on your gluten value of 41.83 grams, or 1.48 ounces.

In actuality, based on the hydration tests you did on the MM dough, I believe that the actual hydration of the MM dough may be a bit higher than the 50% figure we have been using. That would mean a bit more flour in the MM dough. For example, if MM is using 50.5% hydration, the gluten value would be 2.93 ounces. But, with either scenario, comparing the MM gluten value with the MM clone gluten value would seem to suggest that MM is using a flour with a protein content of around 13.5-13.6%. I don't know if this is the epiphany that I was hoping for and that all of the stars and the planets are now in proper alignment but that is what I have taken away from all of the tests and numbers and the MM Nutrition Facts we have at this point.

To add to the above, since we now know through Bob's help that a small MM dough ball weighs around 11.2 ounces instead of 12 ounces, that means that the baker's percents for the oil and salt and molasses have to go up, since they would now be in relation to a smaller amount of flour. Also, the numbers have to fit the MM Nutrition Facts as best as I have been able to understand and use them. I should also mention that using the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses in the amount that would be needed to fit the MM Nutrition Facts, and particularly the amount of sugars and carbohydrates, is likely to lead to a darker dough than before. This leads me to believe that MM is using a very light molasses product, or at least the ones we have been testing so far, with the possible exception of the Steen's 100% Pure Cane Syrup, which is an essentially open pit molasses. In due course, I will test out the color issue with the Steen's.

Peter

Peter,

Interesting to hear that you now think that the actual hydration of the MM dough may a bit higher than the 50% figure we have been using, since you reworked the numbers that I got from the gluten mass test for the MM dough and the MM clone dough.  I didnít know that would mean a bit more flour in the MM dough.  I still donít know how you figure all this out that the flour protein might suggest that MM uses a flour about 13.5-13.6.  I hope we soon have some epiphany in the flour protein that MM uses.  :-D  I can understand that MM must be using a very light molasses product.   Will be waiting for you to do the Steenís 100% Pure Cane Syrup test for color issue, in due course. 

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1119 on: January 20, 2012, 05:57:47 PM »
Norma,

Yes the dough I sent you was frozen, there should have been two freezer packs in that box.Remember I told you I was not pleased with ups on this shipment? I sent them on Friday and got an email notice from them on Monday afternoon confirming they had left Durham here at 3am MONDAY MORNING !! ::)

Bob

Bob,

Thanks for posting that the dough balls you sent me were frozen.  There were two freezer packs in the box.  I remember you posting that you werenít happy with UPS. but didnít know that Monday they confirmed that they had left Durham at 3 am Monday morning.  All good information to know.  :)

Norma

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