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Offline CDNpielover

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1620 on: March 28, 2012, 03:19:10 PM »
overstrike, all i have to say is that PICS ARE A REQUIREMENT!!!   :chef:

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1621 on: March 28, 2012, 03:21:58 PM »
Does yeast alone taste salty, or would it become salty from the mixture?  I never tasted plain IDY.  Might have to do a taste test on some plain IDY. 

Norma,

Plain dry yeast right out of its container has a pleasant taste. If you decide to do a taste test, you may not want to eat too much of it. Your innards may start to ferment and you will burp a lot, or worse.

Dry yeast does have some sodium in it, but it is only about 2 mg for a teaspoon. To put that number into perspective, a teaspoon of regular salt has 2325 mg. There are no sugars in yeast.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1622 on: March 28, 2012, 03:33:28 PM »
Norma,

Plain dry yeast right out of its container has a pleasant taste. If you decide to do a taste test, you may not want to eat too much of it. Your innards may start to ferment and you will burp a lot, or worse.

Dry yeast does have some sodium in it, but it is only about 2 mg for a teaspoon. To put that number into perspective, a teaspoon of regular salt has 2325 mg. There are no sugars in yeast.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me that dry yeast does have a pleasant taste.  Thanks also for giving me the warning of not tasting too much because of the side effects.  I sure donít want that to happen.  I see dry yeast is low in sodium from your numbers.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1623 on: March 30, 2012, 01:59:55 PM »
Norma,

Today, I concluded the latest oil/gluten mass test using the 5-ounce (defrosted) dough ball without the molasses. The dough formulation I used for the tests was this one:

Test Dough Ball w/o Molasses
King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):
Water (Spring Water) (55%):
IDY (0.57%):
Salt (1.43%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (2.35%):
Total (159.35%):
88.96 g  |  3.14 oz | 0.2 lbs
48.93 g  |  1.73 oz | 0.11 lbs
0.51 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.17 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
1.27 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.23 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
2.09 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.46 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
141.75 g | 5 oz | 0.31 lbs | TF = N/A

As I mentioned previously, I adjusted the baker's percents so that the weights of IDY, salt and oil were the same as the last test dough ball with the molasses. That meant that the values of the flour (KABF) and water changed. I also used a bowl residue compensation but scaled the final dough ball weight back to 5 ounces so that the dough ball would have the ingredient weights noted above, and particularly the oil.

For the tests, I used the same method as I used before but with a few changes. First, I heated the water (about 2 1/4 cups) in my 4-cup Pyrex clear glass measuring cup to 100 degrees F. I selected that value just in case I later decided to see if the final "broth" would ferment, in which case I did not want to harm the IDY. By the time I finished "washing" the gluten, after about 15 minutes, the water temperature had dropped to about 85 degrees F, or a few degrees above room temperature. I then let the mixture in the Pyrex measuring cup set for about 45 minutes to let the solids in the mixture settle out at the bottom of the Pyrex measuring cup. Once that happened, I slowly poured the liquid out of the Pyrex measuring cup into a tall drinking glass. However, when I saw that I could not get 100% of the liquid out of the Pyrex measuring cup without some of the starch solids, I decided to pour the rest of the contents of the Pyrex measuring cup into a small drinking glass on the chance that there might still have been a bit of oil in the watery part of the mix. So, all of the starches and other solids ended up in the small drinking glass.

I then let both glasses set at room temperature for about an hour to let the contents settle more. Both glasses then went into the freezer. At that point, neither glass exhibited any signs of oil. By morning, as before, there were signs of the oil at the top and perimeter of the first glass (the tall one) but not the smaller one. So, it appears that I needn't have worried that there was any small amount of oil in the second glass. The oil in the tall water glass looked clear and with an oily feel and consistency. Rather than scraping the oil off of the ice, I let the ice defrost at room temperature for about 20 minutes. I was then able to pour the oil, drop by drop, into the same 2 1/8" diameter metal lid that I had used before. The metal lid with the water/oil mixture in it then went into my countertop toaster oven and heated at about 212 degrees F in order to drive off the water in the oil mixture. I waited just until the oil mix took on the consistency of fresh oil. That took about 15 minutes. I then weighed the oil in the metal lid. It was 2.1 grams. That compared with 2.09 grams of oil that I had weighed for the original dough ball. However, I should point out that the oil had a tan color like the IDY. Also, when I tasted it, it had a slight saltiness to it. So, it is possible that there was a bit of salt in with the oil, and maybe some IDY, which was the only ingredient I used with a tan color.

It is hard to say how reliable the oil test is. As Bill/SFNM mentioned in another thread recently, the home isn't the best place to conduct scientific experiments. However, the results described above seem to warrant the use of the oil test as a way of getting at least a rough estimate of the amount of oil in a given dough.

For now, I plan to let the contents of both glasses fully defrost to see if there is any remnant oil in the liquids. Also, I am interested in seeing if the contents of the small drinking glass with the starch and other solids in it starts to ferment. If it does, it may take considerably longer since there is no molasses. All of the sugars for fermentation purposes have to come from the starch.

Now, as to the gluten mass part of the test, the gluten mass that I got this time weighed 45.9 grams. When I extrapolated that value to 6 ounces of flour, which is the amount of flour that we have used for gluten mass tests, I got a final value, on paper, of 87.77 grams, or 3.10 ounces. As you can see from the Master gluten mass list at Reply 50 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18075.msg177835.html#msg177835, that value is higher than what is listed there for KABF and also higher than the extrapolated value that I got from the last gluten mass test (2.64 ounces). However, the latest gluten mass number is still solidly in the bread flour category. Yet, I still think that it makes sense to use the running water gluten mass test with dough balls with six ounces of flour so as to keep all of the numbers in the same system and can be compared with each other on an apples to apples basis.

Peter

Edit (4/2/12): Corrected gluten mass numbers.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 09:42:23 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1624 on: March 30, 2012, 03:22:58 PM »
Norma,

Today, I concluded the latest oil/gluten mass test using the 5-ounce (defrosted) dough ball without the molasses. The dough formulation I used for the tests was this one:

Test Dough Ball w/o Molasses
King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):
Water (Spring Water) (55%):
IDY (0.57%):
Salt (1.43%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (2.35%):
Total (159.35%):
88.96 g  |  3.14 oz | 0.2 lbs
48.93 g  |  1.73 oz | 0.11 lbs
0.51 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.17 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
1.27 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.23 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
2.09 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.46 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
141.75 g | 5 oz | 0.31 lbs | TF = N/A

As I mentioned previously, I adjusted the baker's percents so that the weights of IDY, salt and oil were the same as the last test dough ball with the molasses. That meant that the values of the flour (KABF) and water changed. I also used a bowl residue compensation but scaled the final dough ball weight back to 5 ounces so that the dough ball would have the ingredient weights noted above, and particularly the oil.

For the tests, I used the same method as I used before but with a few changes. First, I heated the water (about 2 1/4 cups) in my 4-cup Pyrex clear glass measuring cup to 100 degrees F. I selected that value just in case I later decided to see if the final "broth" would ferment, in which case I did not want to harm the IDY. By the time I finished "washing" the gluten, after about 15 minutes, the water temperature had dropped to about 85 degrees F, or a few degrees above room temperature. I then let the mixture in the Pyrex measuring cup set for about 45 minutes to let the solids in the mixture settle out at the bottom of the Pyrex measuring cup. Once that happened, I slowly poured the liquid out of the Pyrex measuring cup into a tall drinking glass. However, when I saw that I could not get 100% of the liquid out of the Pyrex measuring cup without some of the starch solids, I decided to pour the rest of the contents of the Pyrex measuring cup into a small drinking glass on the chance that there might still have been a bit of oil in the watery part of the mix. So, all of the starches and other solids ended up in the small drinking glass.

I then let both glasses set at room temperature for about an hour to let the contents settle more. Both glasses then went into the freezer. At that point, neither glass exhibited any signs of oil. By morning, as before, there were signs of the oil at the top and perimeter of the first glass (the tall one) but not the smaller one. So, it appears that I needn't have worried that there was any small amount of oil in the second glass. The oil in the tall water glass looked clear and with an oily feel and consistency. Rather than scraping the oil off of the ice, I let the ice defrost at room temperature for about 20 minutes. I was then able to pour the oil, drop by drop, into the same 2 1/8" diameter metal lid that I had used before. The metal lid with the water/oil mixture in it then went into my countertop toaster oven and heated at about 212 degrees F in order to drive off the water in the oil mixture. I waited just until the oil mix took on the consistency of fresh oil. That took about 15 minutes. I then weighed the oil in the metal lid. It was 2.1 grams. That compared with 2.09 grams of oil that I had weighed for the original dough ball. However, I should point out that the oil had a tan color like the IDY. Also, when I tasted it, it had a slight saltiness to it. So, it is possible that there was a bit of salt in with the oil, and maybe some IDY, which was the only ingredient I used with a tan color.

It is hard to say how reliable the oil test is. As Bill/SFNM mentioned in another thread recently, the home isn't the best place to conduct scientific experiments. However, the results described above seem to warrant the use of the oil test as a way of getting at least a rough estimate of the amount of oil in a given dough.

For now, I plan to let the contents of both glasses fully defrost to see if there is any remnant oil in the liquids. Also, I am interested in seeing if the contents of the small drinking glass with the starch and other solids in it starts to ferment. If it does, it may take considerably longer since there is no molasses. All of the sugars for fermentation purposes have to come from the starch.

Now, as to the gluten mass part of the test, the gluten mass that I got this time weighed 42.9 grams. When I extrapolated that value to 6 ounces of flour, which is the amount of flour that we have used for gluten mass tests, I got a final value, on paper, of 82.03 grams, or 2.89 ounces. As you can see from the Master gluten mass list at Reply 50 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18075.msg177835.html#msg177835, that value is higher than what is listed there for KABF and also higher than the extrapolated value that I got from the last gluten mass test (2.64 ounces). However, the latest gluten mass number is still solidly in the bread flour category. Yet, I still think that it makes sense to use the running water gluten mass test with dough balls with six ounces of flour so as to keep all of the numbers in the same system and can be compared with each other on an apples to apples basis.

Peter

Peter,

I was very interested to hear about the results of you recent oil/gluten mass test.  I know it is hard to do a scientific experiment at home like Bill mentioned in another thread, but you did a great job.  :chef:  If I ever do an oil test again, I will follow your methods.  Your oil test sure came close in the number to what the dough ball contained in percent of oil.  Also interesting that the oil test did taste a little salty to you this time. 

I would be interested in knowing if the contents of the small drinking glass with the starch will start to ferment.  I understand it might take longer for fermentation purposes since the sugars came from the molasses before. 

I see the number for the KABF in the gluten mass test was higher.  I had been waiting to do the other two gluten mass tests until your experiment with this dough ball.  I will use running water in those two tests since you posted your results.

Norma

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1625 on: March 30, 2012, 03:55:42 PM »
Norma,

I forgot to mention it, but next time I think I would use a larger bowl instead of the large Pyrex measuring cup. I think it will be easier to do the gluten part of the test because there will be more room in the bowl to use your hands and there should be reduced likelihood of any of the liquids spilling or squirting out of the bowl as you squish the dough ball to get to the gluten stage. It should also be possible when done to empty the contents of the bowl, less the gluten mass, into the Pyrex measuring cup. That way, you can see the line between the liquid and the starch and any other solids that settle at the bottom of the measuring cup. I like that feature. This afternoon, when I checked the bottom of the tall drinking glass, there was just a very, very thin layer of starch at the bottom of the glass. You almost couldn't see it.

I will let you know if I experience any fermenting of the contents of either of the two glasses.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1626 on: March 30, 2012, 09:11:29 PM »
Norma,

I forgot to mention it, but next time I think I would use a larger bowl instead of the large Pyrex measuring cup. I think it will be easier to do the gluten part of the test because there will be more room in the bowl to use your hands and there should be reduced likelihood of any of the liquids spilling or squirting out of the bowl as you squish the dough ball to get to the gluten stage. It should also be possible when done to empty the contents of the bowl, less the gluten mass, into the Pyrex measuring cup. That way, you can see the line between the liquid and the starch and any other solids that settle at the bottom of the measuring cup. I like that feature. This afternoon, when I checked the bottom of the tall drinking glass, there was just a very, very thin layer of starch at the bottom of the glass. You almost couldn't see it.

I will let you know if I experience any fermenting of the contents of either of the two glasses.

Peter

Peter,

I didnít have any problems when I used my large Pyrex mixing bowl to do the oil/gluten test.  I had a lot of room to squish, squeeze, and knead the dough ball.  I donít think I had any spillage or there didnít appear to be any.  I also have a large Pyrex measuring cup, so if you think you like the feature to be able to see the line between the liquid and starch and any other solids that settle at the bottom, I will use mine if there is a next time for a oil/gluten test. 

Interesting that when you checked this afternoon the bottom of the tall drinking glass only had a very, very think layer of starch at the bottom of the glass. 

I will wait and see if you have any fermentation in either of the glasses.  It makes me wonder since you havenít seen any so far, if molasses really is that potent in sugars to be able to make the fermentation happen so fast. 

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1627 on: March 31, 2012, 10:14:27 AM »
I will wait and see if you have any fermentation in either of the glasses.  It makes me wonder since you havenít seen any so far, if molasses really is that potent in sugars to be able to make the fermentation happen so fast. 

Norma,

Not long after I finished the oil/gluten mass test yesterday, the smaller drinking glass with just about all of the solids in it, including the starch, started perking away. This morning, it is still chugging along, with active bubbling and a frothy top. On the other hand, the taller drinking glass that is essentially all liquid (water), and from which I extracted the oil, is lifeless, as I hoped it would be. So, the combination of yeast and starch at a room temperature of roughly 78 degrees F is a potent one from a fermentation standpoint. Had I thought to keep notes on times and the like for my last experiment, I might have been able to compare the two sets of results and to comment on what effect the molasses might have had on the last set of results. However, the fermentation effects were a side show to the main tests.

I think my next oil/gluten mass test may be like the last one but leave out the yeast, to see if it was the yeast that imparted the tan color to the oil mixture that I extracted from the cocktail that I produced. Depending on the results of that test, a followup experiment might leave out the salt, to see if that is what I tasted in the oil mixture. In both cases, I would keep the amount of oil constant and adjust the flour and water quantities since those only affect the amount of the gluten.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1628 on: March 31, 2012, 05:23:53 PM »
Norma,

Not long after I finished the oil/gluten mass test yesterday, the smaller drinking glass with just about all of the solids in it, including the starch, started perking away. This morning, it is still chugging along, with active bubbling and a frothy top. On the other hand, the taller drinking glass that is essentially all liquid (water), and from which I extracted the oil, is lifeless, as I hoped it would be. So, the combination of yeast and starch at a room temperature of roughly 78 degrees F is a potent one from a fermentation standpoint. Had I thought to keep notes on times and the like for my last experiment, I might have been able to compare the two sets of results and to comment on what effect the molasses might have had on the last set of results. However, the fermentation effects were a side show to the main tests.

I think my next oil/gluten mass test may be like the last one but leave out the yeast, to see if it was the yeast that imparted the tan color to the oil mixture that I extracted from the cocktail that I produced. Depending on the results of that test, a followup experiment might leave out the salt, to see if that is what I tasted in the oil mixture. In both cases, I would keep the amount of oil constant and adjust the flour and water quantities since those only affect the amount of the gluten.

Peter

Peter,


Thanks for telling anyone that is interested and me that the smaller drinking glass with just about all the solids, including the starch, did start perking not long after the oil/gluten mass test yesterday.  Interesting that 78 degrees F is a good temperature from a fermentation standpoint.  I can understand why you didnít keep more notes on how long the fermentation took to start in your last test, to compare with your previous oil/gluten mass test with the molasses.

Your next oil/gluten mass tests sound very interesting.  I didnít recall that you had a tan color in your last experiment with the oil.  Another test to leave out the salt would also be a good one.

Looking forward to hearing about those tests.

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1629 on: April 02, 2012, 09:58:44 AM »
Norma,

This morning I was reviewing the gluten mass numbers I reported for my last oil/gluten mass test, at Reply 1623 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg179329.html#msg179329, and discovered that I made a math error in the extrapolation process using my calculator. The extrapolated gluten mass value should have been 87.77 grams, or 3.10 ounces (instead of 80.02 grams/2.89 ounces). The corrected number is still solidly in the bread flour category. It is also important to remember that in all of the oil/gluten mass tests I have been conducting recently, I extrapolated the gluten mass values I got from less than 6 ounces of flour to 6 ounces of flour. A more accurate test would use the full 6 ounces of flour.

I have corrected the error in Reply 1623.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1630 on: April 02, 2012, 10:59:31 AM »
Norma,

This morning I was reviewing the gluten mass numbers I reported for my last oil/gluten mass test, at Reply 1623 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg179329.html#msg179329, and discovered that I made a math error in the extrapolation process using my calculator. The extrapolated gluten mass value should have been 87.77 grams, or 3.10 ounces (instead of 80.02 grams/2.89 ounces). The corrected number is still solidly in the bread flour category. It is also important to remember that in all of the oil/gluten mass tests I have been conducting recently, I extrapolated the gluten mass values I got from less than 6 ounces of flour to 6 ounces of flour. A more accurate test would use the full 6 ounces of flour.

I have corrected the error in Reply 1623.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for the correction. 

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1631 on: April 03, 2012, 12:52:42 PM »
Norma,

I just concluded my most recent oil/gluten mass tests, with good results. For the latest dough formulation, which is presented below, I left out the IDY and adjusted the baker's percents so that the oil weighed 2.09 grams, just as with both of the prior tests. As before, that changed the amounts of flour and water and, hence, the amount of gluten derived from the flour. Although not noted below, I used a bowl residue compensation of 3% and I scaled the dough back to 5 ounces (141.75 grams). That dough ball was frozen, to simulate the MM experience, and then defrosted for purposes of the oil/gluten mass tests.

Here is the dough formulation I used:

Test Dough Ball w/o Molasses or IDY but with Salt
King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):
Water (Spring Water) (55%):
Salt (1.42%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (2.34%):
Total (158.76%):
89.29 g  |  3.15 oz | 0.2 lbs
49.11 g  |  1.73 oz | 0.11 lbs
1.27 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.23 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
2.09 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.46 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
141.75 g | 5 oz | 0.31 lbs | TF = N/A

I conducted the oil/gluten mass tests as before except that this time I used a large bowl to do the gluten washing instead of the clear glass 4-cup Pyrex measuring cup. I used about 2 1/4 cups of water in the large bowl, at about 100 degrees F (to help remove any oil from the gluten mass). When I was done washing the gluten mass, which took about 15 minutes, I then stirred the contents of the large bowl to get everything back into solution and very slowly poured the entire contents of the large bowl (less the gluten mass) into my 4-cup Pyrex measuring cup so that the solids could settle out at the bottom of the measuring cup with the liquids above it in clear demarcation. As before, it took about 3/4 hour for that to happen, although the starches started to noticeably settle out after about 15-20 minutes. Also, as before, I poured the liquid part of the mixture into a tall (6 1/8") drinking glass. Seeing that I could not get all of the liquid out of the Pyrex measuring cup without including some of the solids, I decided, as before, to use a second, smaller (5") drinking glass to hold the solids and what small amount of liquid remained. I had not planned to use the second glass but decided to do so because the oil I was hoping to extract was clear and not readily distinguishable from the liquid and I wanted to be sure that I didn't miss any.

The two glasses were put in the freezer overnight. As before, the oil, which was not noticeable in the glasses as they went into the freezer, rose to the tops of the two glasses. This time, the oil was the same color as fresh oil. That suggested that the tan color of the oil from the last test was due either to the yeast or something in the flour.

Since the oil was the same color as the frozen ice, I let the two glasses defrost for about 20 minutes. From time to time during that spell, I tipped the glasses so that the melting liquids would drip into my 2 1/8" metal lid. I am sure that I ended up with more liquid this time because I could not clearly distinguish the oil from the melting ice water, but that did not concern me since that only meant that it would take longer to evaporate the water from the metal lid. I wanted to be sure that I captured every last drop of oil. I might add at this point that it was not clear whether the smaller drinking glass actually contained any oil. Like the taller drinking glass, there was a glossiness on the ice that might have been the oil. So, out an excess of caution, I dripped the melting liquid from the smaller drinking glass into the metal lid, being careful to exclude any of the solids (they are white and, hence, visible). I also scraped the glossy ice from both glasses into the metal lid, again to be sure that I didn't leave any oil behind.

I placed the metal lid containing the oil and water into my countertop toaster oven set at a temperature of about 212 degrees F. This time, because of the greater amount of water, it took about an hour for the water to evaporate and leave only the viscous oil. I weighed that oil and it was 2.0 grams. That compared with the 2.09 grams that was added to the dough. As mentioned before, my small digital scale is accurate to only 0.1 gram, but the value I got was close enough for our purposes. Actually, I estimate that the roughly 2 grams of oil were extracted from about 630 grams of total material. It's like finding a needle in a haystack.

I also tasted the oil. The taste wasn't as clean as fresh oil but it was oil. And it was somewhat salty. So, for now, it appears that some salt was captured by the oil. The only other source of sodium would be the flour but it is trivial (about 0.53 mg and, hence, undetectable). In my next test, I will be leaving out the salt, as well as the IDY and molasses, so that test should tell us whether what I tasted was actually salt and not something else. I was pleased with the results achieved using the large bowl to do the gluten washing so I plan to use that bowl again for the next test.

As for the gluten mass, it weighed 46.3 grams. When I extrapolated that value on paper to 6 ounces (170.1 grams), I got a value of 88.2 grams, or 3.11 ounces. That compares with 3.1 ounces from the last test (also extrapolated). Again, the gluten mass is in solid bread flour territory.

Peter
« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 03:22:44 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1632 on: April 04, 2012, 08:11:53 AM »
Norma,

I just concluded my most recent oil/gluten mass tests, with good results. For the latest dough formulation, which is presented below, I left out the IDY and adjusted the baker's percents so that the oil weighed 2.09 grams, just as with both of the prior tests. As before, that changed the amounts of flour and water and, hence, the amount of gluten derived from the flour. Although not noted below, I used a bowl residue compensation of 3% and I scaled the dough back to 5 ounces (141.75 grams). That dough ball was frozen, to simulate the MM experience, and then defrosted for purposes of the oil/gluten mass tests.

Here is the dough formulation I used:

Test Dough Ball w/o Molasses or IDY but with Salt
King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):
Water (Spring Water) (55%):
Salt (1.42%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (2.34%):
Total (158.76%):
89.29 g  |  3.15 oz | 0.2 lbs
49.11 g  |  1.73 oz | 0.11 lbs
1.27 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.23 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
2.09 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.46 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
141.75 g | 5 oz | 0.31 lbs | TF = N/A

I conducted the oil/gluten mass tests as before except that this time I used a large bowl to do the gluten washing instead of the clear glass 4-cup Pyrex measuring cup. I used about 2 1/4 cups of water in the large bowl, at about 100 degrees F (to help remove any oil from the gluten mass). When I was done washing the gluten mass, which took about 15 minutes, I then stirred the contents of the large bowl to get everything back into solution and very slowly poured the entire contents of the large bowl (less the gluten mass) into my 4-cup Pyrex measuring cup so that the solids could settle out at the bottom of the measuring cup with the liquids above it in clear demarcation. As before, it took about 3/4 hour for that to happen, although the starches started to noticeably settle out after about 15-20 minutes. Also, as before, I poured the liquid part of the mixture into a tall (6 1/8") drinking glass. Seeing that I could not get all of the liquid out of the Pyrex measuring cup without including some of the solids, I decided, as before, to use a second, smaller (5") drinking glass to hold the solids and what small amount of liquid remained. I had not planned to use the second glass but decided to do so because the oil I was hoping to extract was clear and not readily distinguishable from the liquid and I wanted to be sure that I didn't miss any.

The two glasses were put in the freezer overnight. As before, the oil, which was not noticeable in the glasses as they went into the freezer, rose to the tops of the two glasses. This time, the oil was the same color as fresh oil. That suggested that the tan color of the oil from the last test was due either to the yeast or something in the flour.

Since the oil was the same color as the frozen ice, I let the two glasses defrost for about 20 minutes. From time to time during that spell, I tipped the glasses so that the melting liquids would drip into my 2 1/8" metal lid. I am sure that I ended up with more liquid this time because I could not clearly distinguish the oil from the melting ice water, but that did not concern me since that only meant that it would take longer to evaporate the water from the metal lid. I wanted to be sure that I captured every last drop of oil. I might add at this point that it was not clear whether the smaller drinking glass actually contained any oil. Like the taller drinking glass, there was a glossiness on the ice that might have been the oil. So, out an excess of caution, I dripped the melting liquid from the smaller drinking glass into the metal lid, being careful to exclude any of the solids (they are white and, hence, visible). I also scraped the glossy ice from both glasses into the metal lid, again to be sure that I didn't leave any oil behind.

I placed the metal lid containing the oil and water into my countertop toaster oven set at a temperature of about 212 degrees F. This time, because of the greater amount of water, it took about an hour for the water to evaporate and leave only the viscous oil. I weighed that oil and it was 2.0 grams. That compared with the 2.09 grams that was added to the dough. As mentioned before, my small digital scale is accurate to only 0.1 gram, but the value I got was close enough for our purposes. Actually, I estimate that the roughly 2 grams of oil were extracted from about 630 grams of total material. It's like finding a needle in a haystack.

I also tasted the oil. The taste wasn't as clean as fresh oil but it was oil. And it was somewhat salty. So, for now, it appears that some salt was captured by the oil. The only other source of sodium would be the flour but it is trivial (about 0.53 mg and, hence, undetectable). In my next test, I will be leaving out the salt, as well as the IDY and molasses, so that test should tell us whether what I tasted was actually salt and not something else. I was pleased with the results achieved using the large bowl to do the gluten washing so I plan to use that bowl again for the next test.

As for the gluten mass, it weighed 46.3 grams. When I extrapolated that value on paper to 6 ounces (170.1 grams), I got a value of 88.2 grams, or 3.11 ounces. That compares with 3.1 ounces from the last test (also extrapolated). Again, the gluten mass is in solid bread flour territory.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your report on your most recent oil/gluten mass tests.  I am glad you had good results. 

Your methods sure sounds interesting and detailed.  I think it was especially interesting that without IDY or molasses the oil wasnít noticeable after the freeze.  It makes me wonder since you are using the same flour if it is the IDY is what gives the oil the color. 

Since you still tasted a somewhat salty taste from the oil, it does appear that some salt is captured by the oil.  I am sure not a scientist but would think since salty water seems lighter than regular water somehow the saltiness would also come to the top of the frozen mixture.  I am almost sure that is wrong though. 

I will be interested in your next test with leaving out the salt, IDY and molasses.  That test should tell us, as you posted, if actually the salt was actually salt and not something else.

Glad to hear that the gluten mass test also was in line with your last gluten mass test.  I think all of your work in these tests will really help in future reverse engineering projects if someone can actually get their hands on a dough ball or some dough.  I sure wish I would have saved the dough I found at Mackís and frozen it for tests.   :-D

Is there any tests you want me to perform?
 
Norma 

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1633 on: April 04, 2012, 08:26:11 AM »
Norma,

I am not a chemist or a food scientist but I suspect that once salt goes into solution it pretty much remains that way (unless the water is boiled off to recover the salt), and the particles of salt do not sink to the bottom of the container. I think that might help explain why the oil from my last test tasted salty to my palate. Hopefully my next test will shed some light on this.

At this point, I do not see any need to conduct any further tests but thanks for offering.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1634 on: April 04, 2012, 09:06:44 AM »
Peter,

I think you are correct that once the salt goes into the solution it doesnít settle to the bottom.  I also think your next test will shed more light on that. 

I know this is off-topic for this thread, but do you know of any way to do any tests on dough that has been partly baked? I think I still have two slices of the par-baked Mackís pizza in my freezer.  I would guess that the par-bake would have changed the dough though.

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1635 on: April 04, 2012, 10:25:39 AM »
I know this is off-topic for this thread, but do you know of any way to do any tests on dough that has been partly baked? I think I still have two slices of the par-baked Mackís pizza in my freezer.  I would guess that the par-bake would have changed the dough though.

Norma,

I have wondered before whether there were any tests that might be conducted on a crust, even an MM crust, but could not find anything on the subject. I found discussions of how sugars and other things change during the staling process but no tests. I also knew from past experiments that the amount of water loss in a baked crust varied all over the place, depending on how the pizza was baked (temperature and time) and what was put on the pizza.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1636 on: April 04, 2012, 10:42:11 AM »
Norma,

I completed the last of the four oil/gluten mass tests. I used the same methods as previously described. This time, however, the amount of the oil that I retrieved was only 1.3 grams (versus 2.09 grams). I suspected that the number would be lower because of the other things that were apparently in the oils used in the earlier test doughs, including molasses, IDY or salt, or combinations thereof, but I had no idea as to what the number would be where the only thing in the dough other than flour and water was the oil. I plan to run the test again just to be sure that I didn't make an error somewhere. However, I will mention that the amount of oil in the two drinking glasses looked less than before. Also, it was a bit cloudy, possibly because of starch or some other component of the flour. The oil did taste like oil but not quite like oil fresh out of the bottle. Also, it was not salty.

As for the gluten mass part of the test, I came up with a gluten mass value of 47.6 grams (for 90.1 grams of KABF). Extrapolated to 6 ounces (170.1 grams) of flour, the gluten mass value was 3.17 ounces (89.9 grams). The corresponding numbers for the last two tests were 3.10 ounces and 3.11 ounces. So, the latest number is not far off and still in the bread flour range. 

I will report back after re-doing the above test, perhaps with some thoughts as to what the oil tests mean.

Peter

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1637 on: April 04, 2012, 12:46:52 PM »
Norma,

I have wondered before whether there were any tests that might be conducted on a crust, even an MM crust, but could not find anything on the subject. I found discussions of how sugars and other things change during the staling process but no tests. I also knew from past experiments that the amount of water loss in a baked crust varied all over the place, depending on how the pizza was baked (temperature and time) and what was put on the pizza.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for posting that you had also wondered if any tests might be conducted on a crust, even the MM crust, but couldnít find any.  I might think about how to go about conducting such a test on a par-baked crust.  I think I could scrape off the sauce and cheese and since there was no oven spring, might soak the crust in water to see what happens.  I soon was going to throw away those frozen slices anyway when I defrosted the freezer.  I will report if anything happens on the boardwalk thread.

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1638 on: April 04, 2012, 12:47:42 PM »
Norma,

I completed the last of the four oil/gluten mass tests. I used the same methods as previously described. This time, however, the amount of the oil that I retrieved was only 1.3 grams (versus 2.09 grams). I suspected that the number would be lower because of the other things that were apparently in the oils used in the earlier test doughs, including molasses, IDY or salt, or combinations thereof, but I had no idea as to what the number would be where the only thing in the dough other than flour and water was the oil. I plan to run the test again just to be sure that I didn't make an error somewhere. However, I will mention that the amount of oil in the two drinking glasses looked less than before. Also, it was a bit cloudy, possibly because of starch or some other component of the flour. The oil did taste like oil but not quite like oil fresh out of the bottle. Also, it was not salty.

As for the gluten mass part of the test, I came up with a gluten mass value of 47.6 grams (for 90.1 grams of KABF). Extrapolated to 6 ounces (170.1 grams) of flour, the gluten mass value was 3.17 ounces (89.9 grams). The corresponding numbers for the last two tests were 3.10 ounces and 3.11 ounces. So, the latest number is not far off and still in the bread flour range. 

I will report back after re-doing the above test, perhaps with some thoughts as to what the oil tests mean.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for posting about your results of your last oil/gluten mass test.  Interesting that you could only retrieve 1.3 grams of oil and the oil did taste like oil.

I think even when I conducted the different gluten mass tests they arenít always accurate in the same numbers, but still are accurate enough like yours, that they still stay in the same category as high gluten, bread flour, or AP. 

I will be waiting for your next report.

Norma

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Re: Mellow Mushroom Pizza found in Atlanta and surroundin areas...Recipes?
« Reply #1639 on: April 04, 2012, 02:19:14 PM »
Norma,

A point to keep in mind about the oil test is that it has limited application. Also, a raw number for the oil from the test does not mean anything in isolation. It has to be related to something, like the total amount of flour or possibly the total dough weight. Of the four oil tests I conducted recently, the most important and relevant one was the first one, with the flour, water, salt, IDY, oil and molasses. Those are the ingredients that we believe Mellow Mushroom is using in its dough. So, if you did an oil test on a 5-ounce sample of a real MM dough and the oil weight (including whatever else was in the oil) was around 2.09 grams, that would suggest that the amount of oil we have been testing in recent MM clone doughs is perhaps correct. If you got more or less than 2.09 grams, then that would most likely mean that our oil percent is off and needs adjustment in the direction of the value of the results from the MM oil test. The last three oil tests were conducted in order to determine is there was any molasses, IDY or salt in with the oil. Those tests changed mainly one variable at a time. As a result, I think it is fair to say that the molasses, IDY and salt all have their effect on the oil, both in terms of its color and taste.

The oil test, to the extent that it is viable as a test, also has value in relation to the hydration bake test (the 40% total water test), since the latter test helps us estimate the amount of flour used in the dough formulation. Unfortunately, there is no way to know exactly whether we have been using the correct amount of oil. The latest value of oil that we have been testing comes mostly from the MM Nutrition Facts.

As you can see, there are a lot of things joined at the hip. But, if you had a mystery dough ball and wanted to reverse engineer and clone it, it would make sense to do all three of the tests--the hydration bake test, the gluten mass test and the oil test.

Peter

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