Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza

[David]

Looks good Scott.Did you add any sugar for the longer retardation as suggested by Peetza?

[scott r]

no, I did not need any sugar, and this dough was at least four days old.  This was a cold rise, and my fridge is pretty new, so things stay quite cool.  I think the sugar is only needed if your fridge is on the warm side.

[OzPizza]

Had my first go with Pete's variation for 2 x 12" pizzas on the weekend. I was able to finally source some 14% Flour produced by a mill called Ben Furney (product is known as Maxi-Pro Flour- cost $A14 for 25kg!). I used a Salter Aquatronic digital kitchen scale I bought on Sat, which unfortunately I found out only measures to min 1/4 Oz. Nontheless I was able to get pretty close to Pete's quantities. Mind you I think I'll now buy a micro scale to do the finer measurements. I combined the ingredients in the Kitchenaid K5SS Heavy Duty Stand Mixer I recently picked up and followed Pete's instructions, though I may have gone a bit over time thinking my dough wasn't windowpaning properly. after doing a weigh in I realised I was very slightly off in weight (1oz) so I added the missing flour and ended up with a correctly weighted, very good feeling piece of dough.

Then yesterday evening, 24hrs later I removed the 2 dough balls from their container in the fridge and let them warm up. I used a IR thermometer to verify they were approx 52*F when they came out. I managed to get them up to 65*F within the hour as my kitchen was fairly warmly around 70*F. They were almost too easy to stretch at first and I over-stretched them both (and had some uneven thin spots) without trying, which annoyed me as I didn't want to beat up the dough too much by reshaping it again.  I had also pre-heated my Equipex 330 oven for a bit over an hour as this was it's maiden run. It had a recommended fresh pizza temp of 300*c or roughly 585*F, so I thought I'd try it out. It's a bit hard to know as most people here seemed to be limited by their domestic oven temps where as comercial countertops like mine can do 600*F+. The Equipex can go as high as 662*F, which is probably overkill for NY style. Once thing for sure is that it cooked both pizza pretty fast, perhaps faster than I was prepared for. The first had a really nice golden brown color and the second I mistimed fractionally and the crust blacked a bit too much. Unfortunately amidst my excitement I forgot to pickup my camera-phone which was right in front of me and take quick some snapshots.

To the taste: The first pizza was cooked with a very small amount of shredded Mozzeralla put down before the sauce and featured pepperoni. The second one had slightly more sauce no pepperoni, mozzerella, some MasterFoods Pizza topper (herb and spice mix) and also some fresh grated Parmigiano-Reggiano. To me the second pizza was the better tasting despite the slight overcooking. My only other observation was the there was some bubbling and the crust did seem to rise quite nicely with some good air pockets (noticed some air pockets occur when shaping the dough also!), but I didn't achieve the droop, making me think the texture was a bit too firm. With that said the slices were on the small side cause of the relatively small size of the pie so it may have been harder to see then droop under their own weight.

My thoughts for next time are trying to knead the dough a little less, doublechecking the finished dough temp (didn't have therm), giving a bit more warm up time out of the fridge, trying not to over work the dough when shaping it, and naturally keeping a closer eye on the cooking time.

[JF_Aidan_Pryde]

Hi Oz,

Woah, looks like you finally found some 14% protein flour! Or else being equal, how does the end result
compare with regular flour? Also, where can I buy the same flour?

[Pete-zza]

One of my pet projects for some time has been to develop an "entry level" Lehmann NY style dough. By "entry level", I mean a Lehmann NY style dough that is based on all-purpose flour and the use of a pizza screen in a normal home oven. What has especially motivated me to develop such a pizza is the fact that I frequently vacation in Mexico where I help my daughter-in-law make pizzas for family and friends. Unfortunately, as I have reported several times before, about the only white flour available in Mexican retail markets to make pizza is a Mexican version of all-purpose flour. There is no bread flour and no high-gluten flour. I have been willing to bring some King Arthur Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour to Mexico with me, but my daughter-in-law has forbidden it and insists on using only local Mexican flours.

During my most recent visit to Mexico, from which I returned a few days ago, I prepared two pizzas, shown below, based on a basic Lehmann NY style dough but using a Mexican all-purpose flour instead of high-gluten flour. The recipes I used were a 16-inch Lehmann dough recipe and a 14-inch Lehmann dough recipe, both of which have been posted elsewhere on this thread. Since I was substituting Mexican all-purpose flour (the Harina de Trigo San Antonio Tres Estrellas brand of all-purpose flour) for the high-gluten flour I normally use, I made small tweaks to the ratio of flour and water to lower the hydration level to one more suitable (60%) to the use of all-purpose flour. The Mexican all-purpose flour I used has a protein content of 11.5%, which is similar to many U.S. all-purpose flours.

The preparation of the dough and its subsequent handling to make pizza skins was as reported many times before on this thread, but using a food processor to do all the mixing and kneading. The first pizza was a standard 16-inch pepperoni pizza, and the second pizza was a 14-inch Mexican-themed pizza using ground beef, a McCormick taco seasoning, red peppers, diced onions, and a blend of shredded cheddar, Monterey Jack, asadero and queso blanco cheeses. This was not some exotic blend of cheeses I put together. It came in a package from a local Sam's. The basic tomato sauce for both pizzas was a blend of lightly cooked 6-in-1 tomatoes (one of my daughter-in-law's absolute favorites--which I am permitted to bring with me to Mexico), Penzeys pizza seasoning, a diced clove of fresh garlic, a bit of olive oil, some grated Parmigiano-Reggiano cheese, and a pinch of sugar.

Both pizzas were baked on pizza screens which were placed on a pizza stone that had been preheated for about an hour at 500 degrees F. The total bake time in each case was around 7-8 minutes. The photos below show the two pizzas. Everyone but me fully enjoyed the pizzas. I guess making and eating too many good high-gluten crusts has spoiled me. I thought the tastes and flavors of the pizzas were perfectly fine, but I found the crust to be too soft, too light, not chewy or crunchy enough, and not browned enough--either top or bottom--for my tastes. I knew I could do better. I had neither time nor materials to prove the point while I was in Mexico so I decided to bring some of the Mexican all-purpose flour back to the U.S. with me to experiment with once I got back to Texas. On the plane trip back, I outlined in my mind how I would attempt to improve on the all-purpose flour version of Tom Lehmann's NY style dough recipe. The results of that effort, along with photos, are detailed in the next post.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

My plan of attack to improve upon my Mexican all-purpose Lehmann NY style dough was fourfold. I would use a basic Lehmann dough recipe (in this case, for a 12-inch test pizza) but (1) I would use all-purpose flour (Mexican), (2) a lower hydration level, (3) vital wheat gluten, and (4) dried dairy whey. I have written before on using vital wheat gluten to increase the protein content of bread flour, and I have written before on using dairy whey to improve the coloration of crusts based on using Italian 00 flours, which tend naturally to be quite light in color. But, until the most recent experiment, I had not before used either vital wheat gluten or dairy whey with all-purpose flour in a Lehmann dough recipe. I will hasten to point out that neither is original with me. Both vital wheat gluten and dairy whey are used from time to time by professional pizza operators to achieve the unique qualities offered by these ingredients. The finished crust will not absolutely mimic one based on using a high-gluten flour, but the crust will be denser, chewier and crunchier than a crust based only on all-purpose flour and with a more pronounced degree of coloration. Both vital wheat gluten and dried dairy whey are relatively inexpensive ingredients and fairly widely available (I found both at Whole Foods).

The recipe I created to perform the most recent experiment was as follows (together with baker’s percents):

100%, All-purpose flour (I used Mexican but U.S. all-purpose flour can be used as well), 7.15 oz. (1 3/4 c. plus 4 t.)
60%, water (temp. adjusted to achieve a finished dough temp. of 80 degrees F), 4.29 oz. (a bit more than 1/2 c.)
1.75%, Salt, 0.13 oz. (a bit more than 5/8 t.)
1%, Oil, 0.07 oz. (a bit less than 1/2 t.)
0.25%, IDY, 0.018 oz. (1/6 t.)
3%, Dairy whey, 0.22 oz. (a bit more than 1 t.)
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105

It will be noted that the above formulation does not reflect the use of vital wheat gluten. For those who are interested in these sorts of things, in order to make the all-purpose flour behave more like high-gluten flour from a protein standpoint (once enhanced with the vital wheat gluten), it is necessary to first determine the difference in protein content between the two flours. Using 14.2% as the benchmark for the high-gluten flour (the protein level of the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour), I subtracted the protein content of the all-purpose flour, 11.5%, from 14.2%. This yielded a difference of 2.7%. Each 1% of vital wheat gluten, by weight of flour, added to the all-purpose flour increases the protein content by 0.6%. In our case, the percent of vital wheat gluten that is required to be added to the all-purpose flour is equal to 2.7 divided by 0.6 (4.5%) times the weight of flour in the above recipe (7.15 oz.), or about 0.32 oz. Using the conversion data on the package of vital wheat gluten, this translates to a bit more than 1 tablespoon of vital wheat gluten. Because the vital wheat gluten is dry, it is also necessary to compensate for this by increasing the amount of water in the recipe by 1.5 times the weight of the vital wheat gluten added. This is about 1 tablespoon. For all intents and purposes, it will be sufficient to just add about a tablespoon or more of vital wheat gluten for a 12-inch size pizza and increase it proportionately for larger sizes. Likewise with the dairy whey. Absolute precision is not necessary. What is especially nice for me is that the vital wheat gluten and dairy whey are lightweight and only small amounts are necessary. This means I can easily bring these ingredients with me to Mexico on future trips.

The dough was prepared in a straightforward manner. The salt was dissolved in the water (at about 74 degrees F), and the flour, yeast, vital wheat gluten and dairy whey were combined and gradually added to the water/salt mixture and mixed at speed 1 of my KitchenAid mixer, for about 2 minutes. The oil was then added and kneaded into the dough, and the kneading continued for about another 6-7 minutes at speed 2. After about 30 seconds of final hand kneading and shaping, the finished dough ball was coated lightly with oil and placed in the refrigerator in a covered container. The finished dough weight was 12.40 ounces, and the finished dough temperature was 80 degrees F. The dough remained in the refrigerator for about 26 hours, following which it was brought to room temperature for about 2 hours in preparation for shaping. The dough handled extremely well, with a nice balance between extensibility (stretchiness) and elasticity (springback). I attribute the good handing qualities of the dough to the addition of the dairy whey. This is a quality I previously noted and reported on when I used dairy whey in experiments with the Italian Caputo 00 flour.

Once the dough was stretched out to 12 inches, it was placed on a 12-inch pizza screen and dressed in a standard pepperoni style. The pizza was baked on the lowest oven rack position of the oven, which had been preheated for about 10 minutes at 500-550 degrees F. No pizza stone was used at all. The total bake time was about 8 minutes. The photos below show the finished product.

The pizza was very good, and one that, after many prior unsuccessful attempts, am prepared to recommend to those who wish to try out a Lehmann dough recipe but do not have access to high-gluten flour. The crust was chewy, crunchy, yet it was light in texture with a nice crumb structure with holes of random sizes. The crust was also considerably darker than those I made in Mexico. There’s no doubt in my mind that the vital wheat gluten and the dairy whey were responsible for the improvements. I don’t want to suggest that the results will be indistinguishable from a crust made with high-gluten flour. What I am prepared to say is that the pizza will be considerably better than one using only all-purpose flour—in just about all respects--to the point where many may not notice the difference. I also hope that fellow member jeancarlo, who recently opened a pizzeria in El Grullo, Mexico will read this post and test out the above recipe (if he can locate supplies of vital wheat gluten and dairy whey) to see if it is suitable for Mexicans craving a NY style pizza.

Peter

[JF_Aidan_Pryde]

Pete,
Once again,  you've made me hungry.

Those pies look awesome. I will try to hunt down those two ingredients and see if I can repeat your results.

Keep up the great work!

[OzPizza]

Hi Oz,

Woah, looks like you finally found some 14% protein flour! Or else being equal, how does the end result
compare with regular flour? Also, where can I buy the same flour?

JF, I have to say there is zero comparison to using normal flour. Hydration rates aside, regular flour doesn't have anything like the right taste, it's pretty bland. The closest would be Defiance breadflour with gluten flour added, but the result and taste are still a ways off.

I sourced my Ben Furney Maxi-Pro from Rice Distributors who have and outlet in Kirawee, I had to go for the 25kg professional quantity for the princely sum of $A14. I was advised by the bloke at Rice Distributors that Ben Furney was superior even to the AFM Black Label high protein in protein level and would give me the pizza result I was after(he knew quite a bit about using various flour grades for Pizza). I don't have Rice Distributtors number handy, but they are in the Yellow Pages.

I'm off now to commence tonight's pizzas with last weeks defrosted dough. Wish me luck! I'll post some better pics this time!

Andrew

[OzPizza]

Another real success tonight, this time with frozen, properly thawed dough.

I made 2 12"s. First one was a little too much to the front of the oven, so the front was a little less cooked than than the back.  Wasn't too bad a result still:

(http://members.ozemail.com.au/~jazzman/Pizza/DSC_0067%20(Medium).JPG)
(http://members.ozemail.com.au/~jazzman/Pizza/DSC_0072%20(Medium).JPG)
(http://members.ozemail.com.au/~jazzman/Pizza/DSC_0074%20(Medium).JPG)

The Second pizza was the one. It had all the right attributes, I got positioned properly in the oven for starters.

(http://members.ozemail.com.au/~jazzman/Pizza/DSC_0076%20(Medium).JPG)
(http://members.ozemail.com.au/~jazzman/Pizza/DSC_0081%20(Medium).JPG)
(http://members.ozemail.com.au/~jazzman/Pizza/DSC_0082%20(Medium).JPG)
(http://members.ozemail.com.au/~jazzman/Pizza/DSC_0085%20(Medium).JPG)
(http://members.ozemail.com.au/~jazzman/Pizza/DSC_0089%20(Medium).JPG)

[JF_Aidan_Pryde]

Andrew,

Those look like some awesome pies. Thanks for the info on the distributor. One of these
days I'll have to drive there and get a bag. $14 is pretty cheap man! Sure beats those
1KG packs of Italian bread flour from the deli.

[Pete-zza]

Andrew,

From the looks of your most recent efforts, it seems that your newfound higher gluten flour is steering you in the right direction. You even got the "droop", which is sometimes hard to do with a 12-inch. I don't know if your oven will permit it, but you might want to try going to a larger size, say, 14-inch. As you know, the standard NY style is even bigger, 16-18 inches.

I also wondered from the photos whether you were intentionally striving for irregular shapes rather than round for your pizzas. Or whether, perhaps, the dough was too extensible to shape easily into round shapes. I like the rustic look, but wondered whether it was intentional.

Peter

[OzPizza]

Andrew,

From the looks of your most recent efforts, it seems that your newfound higher gluten flour is steering you in the right direction. You even got the "droop", which is sometimes hard to do with a 12-inch. I don't know if your oven will permit it, but you might want to try going to a larger size, say, 14-inch. As you know, the standard NY style is even bigger, 16-18 inches.

I also wondered from the photos whether you were intentionally striving for irregular shapes rather than round for your pizzas. Or whether, perhaps, the dough was too extensible to shape easily into round shapes. I like the rustic look, but wondered whether it was intentional.

Peter

Pete,

The biggest my oven can do is 13", which you can just about make out from the photo. I am a stickler for a round pizza, but this dough is so stretchy it's taking some getting used. I think the more I make, the better I'll get with regard to uniform shaping. I have make a slightly irregular slice to capture the droop, more like a slice from a 16" I'd say, but it was good for illustrating the result.

I have 2 of my close friends and colleagues are coming over tomorrow night for my pizzas. One of my friends is the guy who got to go to John's at Bleeker St. last month and has been raving about it ever since (god forbid he ever tries a more highly acclaimed NY pizzeria, I'll never hear the end!). The other one is a pizza enthusiast but has never eaten a pizza outside here or Greece. He is a topping minimalist (cheese and pepperoni) like myself many NY fans though.

For a bit of variety, I will soon have to take on some other recipes, such as American pizza and others. I'll have clocked up my 8th or 9th Lehmann pizza by tomorrow night. Not bad going for 3 weeks worth of pizzamaking and certainly more than I've made in that amount of time in the past!

[piroshok]

Great looking pie Ozpizza I see you got your flour ok
May I ask you a question relating to Ben Furney Maxi-Pro from Dubbo if you can post their phone number I am currently doing a project where I should cover NSW especially Sydney area and should use the maximum gluten flour
possible I like to get intouch with the millers if possible
Thank you
 

[Pete-zza]

Andrew,

You might try using a bit less water and/or reducing the fermentation time a bit. Using cooler water or a cooler refrigeration temperature (if you can achieve it) might help also.

Peter

[OzPizza]

Great looking pie Ozpizza I see you got your flour ok
May I ask you a question relating to Ben Furney Maxi-Pro from Dubbo if you can post their phone number I am currently doing a project where I should cover NSW especially Sydney area and should use the maximum gluten flour
possible I like to get intouch with the millers if possible
Thank you

 
Sorry mate, I never contacted Ben Furney directly, if you see my post from a few days ago to JF, you see that it was the distributor who put me on to the Ben Furney over the AFM I was originally looking for. I think you can find them on the web though if you google.

Andrew,

You might try using a bit less water and/or reducing the fermentation time a bit. Using cooler water or a cooler refrigeration temperature (if you can achieve it) might help also.

Peter

The water makes sense to me as I've had to add a small bit of flour each time I've made the dough, just to get the consistency right and not overly sticky.To describe it, I would say the dough takes quite a bit of work till you get it stretched out. But when it's stretched thin, its quite silky and transporting it to the peel results in a little more stretch sometimes.  It winter here and the first few batches I made had normal temp tap water, so my dough didnt hit 80F. This last batch I made on Monday for tonight (which will be the most fermented to date, 48hrs), the dough to finished up at 82F before going into the fridge. Last time batch, my dough came out of the fridge at 51F. To describe it, I would say the dough takes quite a bit of work till you get it stretched out. But when it's stretched thin, its quite silky and transporting it to the peel results in a little more stretch sometimes. If I did it on the peel it might be easier, I just don't want to push off all the semolina and have it stick. Anyway, it's easy enough to experiment next with those factors. Tonights is already there so I'll how it goes. What I'm happy with regardless so far, has been the resulting taste.

[Pete-zza]

Andrew,

If you'd like to max out your oven with a 13-inch size and would like help with ingredients for that size (and any specified thickness or hydration ratio), let me know. It's easy enough to do.

Peter

[piroshok]

No problems Ozpizza found them Ben Furney Flour Mills (Dubbo, NSW) 101 Brisbane Street, 02 6884 4388
Just have to talk to them ASAP. The Victorian rep is coming to discuss few things
Thanks mate

[piroshok]

Ozpizza the mill contacted me this arvo with some news and tech info on the flour as I know Australian grain is not of the highest quality and it is mixed with Argentine, Canadian and or Russians to make up the protein levels.
Millers here don't have the highest protein flour but the good thing is that they do deliver to small operations and want the business the guy in Vic is really helpful and promised me the stuff I want so he offered a special premix and to keep up the standards from which i'll do a test run for my project in few weeks. After all I'll be buying something like 100 bags per month in the first month of operation if the project takes off the ground

[OzPizza]

Ozpizza the mill contacted me this arvo with some news and tech info on the flour as I know Australian grain is not of the highest quality and it is mixed with Argentine, Canadian and or Russians to make up the protein levels.
Millers here don't have the highest protein flour but the good thing is that they do deliver to small operations and want the business the guy in Vic is really helpful and promised me the stuff I want so he offered a special premix and to keep up the standards from which i'll do a test run for my project in few weeks. After all I'll be buying something like 100 bags per month in the first month of operation if the project takes off the ground

Go to hear mate, hope it works out for you. If you can get some firm info on the protein levels I'd appreciate that. I'd hate to have been mislead about the 14% by either the SMH article or the distributor. Mind you my results with dough seem to indicate a much higher gluten level than any other doughs I've used prior to the Maxi-Pro.

[OzPizza]

Andrew,

If you'd like to max out your oven with a 13-inch size and would like help with ingredients for that size (and any specified thickness or hydration ratio), let me know. It's easy enough to do.

Peter

The only thing is when I look at my paddle, which just fits into my oven, I don't know that I can get much more the than the 12". I'll give it a shot and hit it with the tape measure again though just to check.

Last nights effort was a resounding success. I would say if anything 48hrs fermentation helped the dough even more. Regarding elasticity I didn't really find any probs with over stretching, probably more the opposite. My 2nd out of 3 pizzas kept holding it's shape and I couldn't really get it perfectly round. The other 2 weren't hard to get quite round with any drama. This time I cooked all pies at the 300C setting (the recommended one for pizza) on my oven and found that I got a perfect result in just over 4 mins of cooking every time. The last 2 had the best browning, even mild charring underneath, with perfectly melted cheese. I would say my last pizza was the best of all by a slight margin. Unfortanately, with friends around, I didn't really want to wank on with a camera, so I only took a quick snap of my 1st pie with my phone. All in all 3 out of 3 people really enjoyed my pizza and credited the crust as being something really special. My good friend, the guy who's just been to NY said, hey it's not John's of Bleeker St, but for guy who's researched it and made it at home, it's awesome.