Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza

[deb415611]

Enchant,

Don't worry about your wife - at first my husband shook his head, rolled his eyes but has now become silent on the subject since he's enjoying the benefits of that large bag.      

Deb

[enchant]

I think you're right, Deb.  The problem is that my wife is absolutely militant about not wasting anything.  If she was alone at a restaurant that didn't allow you to take home food, and the choice was an 8 oz steak dinner for $12 or a 24 oz steak dinner for $10, she'd pay extra for the 8 oz dinner.

I've talked to her before about the 50 lb bag.  I explained that I just paid about $10 (including shipping) for six pounds.  For $14.75, I can get 50 lb locally.  Seems like pretty easy math to me.

"How many pizzas will a 50 lb bag make?"
"Well over a year's worth."
"Will it last that long?"
"Possibly not, but even if it doesn't - even if I throw 80% of it away, it's still a better deal!"

Big big mistake, making that point.  She totally vetoed the idea.

But I'm going to try talking my brother into splitting a bag with me.  That might solve the problem.  And even if he's not interested, he can just throw HIS half away.

But it just occurred to me...  I've got a stand-up arcade machine in the basement, and I think that the flour might fit nicely inside.

[Pete-zza]

enchant,

An even better bargain would be instant dry yeast (IDY) if you buy it by the pound and store it in the freezer section of your refrigerator where it can last for several years. If you use 1/5th teaspoon per pizza, as you did recently, that would theoretically allow you to make around 750 pizzas out of the bag (if you don't spill any of the yeast). Admittedly, 1/5th teaspoon is very low for any pizza, but if you used a more typical 1/2 teaspoon for a Lehmann dough, you would theoretically have enough IDY to make 300 Lehmann pizzas. One of our new members recently reported on this thread that he bought two one-pound bags of IDY at Sam's for $3. Even if you paid multiples of that (e.g., from King Arthur), you would still have a bargain compared with the packets or bottles of yeast sold in the supermarkets. Recently, I saw one of those 3-packet strips of yeast sold in a local supermarket at over $2.

Peter

[enchant]

That's funny. Well gee, I'd jump all over that Sam's club 2 lb deal, but since my one pound bag should theoretically last me another 14 years...

Seems that about the only thing in a pizza that makes it cost anything at all is the cheese!  No wonder my little town has like 500 pizza joints.

[Pete-zza]

In a recent post, at Reply 389 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg26720.html#msg26720), I described my efforts to make a “summertime” version of the Lehmann dough and pizza, using a pizza screen only and a short baking time (about a half hour total). Based on what I learned from that effort, I made some adjustments in an attempt to improve upon my last results. What I was especially hoping to achieve is a greater degree of crispiness in the bottom crust. Even Tom Lehmann in some of his writings says that this is not a particularly easy thing to do when using a pizza screen. Usually, such comments are made in the context of a commercial setting where operators are reluctant to reduce the bake temperature and use a longer bake time in their conveyor ovens to produce a drier and, therefore, more crispy, finished crust. This is not an issue for most of us on the forum, and it was with that thought in mind that I acted to improve upon my last effort.

The dough formulation I used was essentially the same as recited in Reply 389 except that I eliminated the sugar and reduced the thickness factor a bit (from 0.105 to 0.10) in order to achieve a slightly thinner dough that I hoped would result in a thinner, and more crispy crust. For convenience, I have recited the formulation here:

100%, High-gluten flour (KASL), 12.12 oz. (343.38 g.), 2 3/4 c. + 2 T. (stir, spoon and level technique)
63%, Water, 7.63 oz. (216.33 g.), between 7/8 and 1 c.
1%, Oil (extra virgin olive oil), 0.12 oz. (3.43 g.), 3/4 t.
1.75%, Salt, 0.21 oz. (6.01 g.), a bit over 1 t.
0.25%, Instant dry yeast (IDY), 0.03 oz. (0.86 g.), a bit over 1/4 t.
Total dough weight = 20.11 oz. (570.01 g.)
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.10
Pizza size = 16”
Note: all measurements are U.S./metric standard

The dough was prepared following the basic procedures outlined in Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563, and placed in the refrigerator (in a metal, lidded container) for just over 48 hours. When I was ready to use the dough, I brought it out of the refrigerator and let it rise, covered, on my kitchen counter for about 2 hours. The remaining steps I used to get the results I was looking for were as follows:

1) I shaped and stretched the dough out to a 16” “skin” and placed it on a floured round cardboard form. I covered the skin with plastic wrap and allowed it to proof for about 20 minutes. The proofing was for the purpose of increasing the gas in the dough to make it a better “insulator”. In theory, by so doing, the heat transfer through the skin would be reduced and permit a longer bake time and, hence, a drier and crispier crust.

2) After the 20-minute proofing of the skin, I docked it using a docking tool (as previously shown in Reply 389 referenced above). The docking was done on the cardboard form rather than on the screen in order to prevent the dough from being forced into the crevices of the screen and becoming permanently lodged to it. I used the docking tool because I have it but I could have just as well used a simple kitchen fork.

3) I transferred the docked skin to a 16” pizza screen and placed the skin in the oven on the lowest oven rack position. The oven had been turned on about half way through the 20-minute proof period and preheated to about 500-550 degrees F. The skin was allowed to pre-bake only until the dough set and the rim of the dough rose to its normal size, about 2 minutes. There were a few bubbles that formed in the dough during the pre-bake, which I poked with a skewer to deflate. (Docking tools are not 100% effective, especially during pre-bakes with nothing on the skin). As might be expected, there was some oven heat loss from the in-and-out pre-bake step. It was to compensate for this loss that I had preheated the oven to 500-550 degrees to begin with. The final bake temperature I was aiming for was 450 degrees F.

4) I removed the pre-baked skin from the oven, dressed it (in a simple pepperoni style), and returned it to the oven, without the screen, to finish baking. This time, I lowered the oven temperature to about 450 degrees F and placed the pizza on the middle oven rack position so that it would bake more slowly, but longer--without overbaking--and create greater crispiness in the finished crust. The pizza baked on the middle oven rack position for about 8 minutes, or until the crust was a nice color and the cheeses were starting to turn brown in spots. There was no need to use the broiler element, as I often do in order to get greater crust coloration.

5) Once the pizza was done baking, I removed it from the oven and placed it back on the cardboard form (unfloured). The cardboard form was used since it acts as an insulator and helps keep the moisture in the crust from escaping and turning the bottom crust soft and soggy. (This was a tip from one of Tom Lehmann’s writings.)

The photos below show the finished product. I thought the pizza turned out very well. As hoped, it had a nice crispy, browned bottom crust, a chewy rim, and a soft and open interior crumb. After a bit more than 2 days of dough fermentation, and because of the longer and slower bake, which intensifies crust flavors (through de-naturing of the protein in the flour), the crust was very flavorful and with a pleasant aroma. Just as importantly for me is that I learned a few more things about oven management in making this particular pizza--especially how to use oven temperatures and bake times and rack positioning and pre-bake techniques to achieve the desired results, particularly when using a pizza screen rather than a stone or tiles. I was also pleased that I was able to produce a good pizza without overheating my kitchen. As with my recent summer pizza making efforts, the total elapsed oven time was around a half-hour.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Recently, after having read about Greek/bar style pizzas, I decided to make one using a modified version of the basic Lehmann NY style dough. Greek/bar style pizzas are baked in pans and usually have thicker crusts than the NY style, and the doughs for them use a fair amount of sugar. To achieve that style using the Lehmann dough formulation, I 1) increased the thickness factor from a typical 0.10-0.105 to 0.11 (to achieve a thicker crust), 2) increased the yeast (IDY) by about 50% (to get more rise in the dough), and 3) added sugar to the dough (sugar seems to be a common ingredient for the Greek/bar style). Because the changes I made deviated in several respects from the basic Lehmann dough formulation and because a pan was used to bake the pizza, I have opted to report the results at the Greek pizza thread at: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.msg27482.html#msg27482. I thought the pizza was first rate, and mention it here simply because the results demonstrate how the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation can be modified quite easily to make other types of pizzas. The photo below is of the pizza I made (shown within the pan).

Peter

[Scagnetti]

.
.

The final recipe, with baker's percents, is as follows:

  KA bread flour (100%), 12.10 ounces (about 2 3/4 c.)
  Arrowhead VWG (2.5 %), 0.30 oz. (about 1 T.)
  Water (63%), 7.65 oz. (about 7/8 c.), plus an additional 1 T.
  Salt (1.75%), 0.21 oz. (about 1 t.)
  Oil (1.0%), 0.12 oz. (about 3/4 t.)
  IDY (0.25%), 0.03 oz. (between 1/4 and 1/3 t.)
.
.
.

Above excerpted from Reply #65 and #66 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5635.html#msg5635

Pete,

Do you think this method can be used as a substitute for any recipe requiring high gluten flour, specifically Steve's quick & easy NY pie as noted at:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2790.0.html

Thanks.

Scagnetti

[Pete-zza]

Scagnetti,

If you are asking whether the bread flour and vital wheat gluten (VWG) combination can be used in lieu of the high-gluten KASL in Steve's recipe or another recipe calling for high-gluten flour, the answer is yes. You should also be able to get away with using only bread flour (without the VWG). In that case, you might lower the hydration a bit, by maybe 1-2%, to compensate for the fact that bread flour has a slightly lower absorption rate (hydration) than high-gluten flour.

If you are asking whether the Lehmann dough formulation you referenced can be used to make a "quick and easy" pizza dough like Steve's, the answer is also yes but you would have to modify the formulation. I suspect that that is not what you are really asking, but if so and you would like to know how to modify the formulation, please let me know.

Peter

[Scagnetti]

If you are asking whether the Lehmann dough formulation you referenced can be used to make a "quick and easy" pizza dough like Steve's, the answer is also yes but you would have to modify the formulation. I suspect that that is not what you are really asking, but if so and you would like to know how to modify the formulation, please let me know.

Peter

I've done your "Massachusetts" pizza twice (Reply #65) using KA All Purpose flour and VWG. The first pie was really good with a good crust and bubbles.  The second one was flat with no bubbles at all but I think I screwed up by opening the oven once too many times.  Anyway, what adjustments would I have to make for Steve's if I wanted to use the KA AP or KA Bread flour and VWG approach.

Scagnetti

[Pete-zza]

Scagnetti,

Steve's quick and easy dough recipe calls for 10.7 ounces of KASL and 7.4 ounces of water. If you want to use a combination of bread flour and vital wheat gluten (VWG) in lieu of KASL in Steve's recipe, you would go through the types of calculations described in Reply 65 that you referenced. If you want to use a combination of all-purpose flour and VWG in lieu of the KASL in Steve's recipe, you would go through the types of calculations described in Reply 67. When I originally did these calculations, I assumed that King Arthur bread flour (KABF) and King Arthur all-purpose flour (KAAP) were used. If you are using different brands of bread flour and all-purpose flour, the calculations would produce slightly different results because the King Arthur brands of both these flours have slightly higher protein levels than just about all competing brands.

On the assumption that KABF and KAAP are used, the quantities of flour, VWG and water to use in Steve's recipe would be as set forth below. The remaining ingredients (salt and yeast) can remain the same.

KABF (12.7% protein)
10.7 oz. KABF
0.27 oz. VWG (a bit over 2 1/2 t.)
7.80 oz. water

KAAP (11.7% protein)
10.7 oz. KAAP
0.45 oz. VWG (a bit over 4 1/4 t.)
8.07 oz. water

Using the above approaches will increase the total weight of the dough a bit from that derived from Steve's recipe, but the differences will be slight. However, if you want to keep the same weight in each case, you could subtract the weight of the VWG from the flour and leave the water alone. This approach was also described in Reply 65. Because Steve's recipe calls for a hydration of 69.2% and will yield a quite wet dough as a result, you may find that you will have to add a bit more flour in the event you can't handle the dough because of excessive wetness. This is somewhat inevitable because of the different hydration characteristics of the different flours and also the VWG.

Good luck.

Peter

[musiq]

Carlo,

When you first joined the forum, you told us your name and that you were living in the UK but once lived in Italy. Knowing that, I intentionally drew the distinction between the way pizzas are made in Italy using 00 flour, with which you would be familiar, and how they are made in the U.S. using other flours, which you might not be quite as familiar. In Italy, and especially places like Naples, pizza makers seem to be bound more by tradition. This is less common in the U.S., where more attention is given to how to exploit ideas to create profitable businesses. In that context, it isn't surprising that a short-term dough should emerge out of flour, water, yeast and salt. If there is a way to do it, American entrepreneurism will usually find it.

A short-term dough will appeal to ordinary home pizza makers also because it saves time and is easy to make. I have the luxury of time to make exactly the pizza I want to make, but most people don't have that luxury. But I still think it is good to know how to make the best short-term dough possible for those occasions where there is a desire or need to have it, for whatever reason. I think quite often about how more flavor might be introduced to a short-term dough. I know that there are chemical additives to do this sort of thing, as some bakers and commisaries use to create faux sourdough breads, but I would prefer natural ways--which I have yet to uncover.

Peter

Hi Peter,
sorry it took me so long to reply, had a busy month (including the celebrations for the world cup!)and haven't had much time to do experiments on pizzas.
I agree with what you said, and i absolutely don't question the conveniency of a quick-rise dough. Who wouldn't want to be able to have his pizza ready in a hour?
My point is trying not to sacrifice digestibility and health in search for a better flavour. That is the reason i don't advice using an high gluten or bread flour for anything that hasn't been left maturing for at least 7-8 hours at room temperature.
For this reason yesterday i tried to make two quick NY pizzas , one using bread flour and the other using AP( in england is called Plain flour, i guess it's the same thing, 10,4% protein).

Both were made with same baker's percentages, being

63% warm water
1% oil
1,75% salt
0,5% IDY

The bread flour one used a slightly higher hydration, and yeast is an approximate value, as dealing with such small quantities is really difficult.

The procedure was the same for both, water in the bowl, IDY dissolved in it, half the flour all together, mixed it, and then added the rest of the flour spoon by spoon , mixing everytime till it was absorbed, leaving some for the hand kneading. Salt was added when 3/4 of the flour had been incorporated,  and oil as the very last thing. The dough was slighly under kneaded ( meaning in both cases i could have gone on for 3-5 minutes more). Everything was done on purpose with the quick rise in mind. I put the two balls in different bowl and let them rise in the same part of the kitchen(temperature was approximately around 25°C). If i had worked with bigger quantities, i would have let the dough bulk fermenting for 30 minutes and then shaped the balls with the least possible handling. Having just done 2 single pizzas, i just left them to rise for 3 hours. At the time they had doubled in size. I shaped them and baked them at 250°C (no stone unfortunately). I didn't care much about the dressing , being so focused on the crust , so they were just spiced tomato and cheddar cheese. They cooked for 8-9 minutes.

Results: surprisingly the APF had a better browning, better flavour and better texture than the BF one, and for these reason was the clear winner(conforted in my choice by my girlfriend, who had no clue on why i was being so obsessed about those pizzas.. ). The only reason my little knowledge gives me is what i was speculating on in my previous posts, being that a fully developed (meaning matured) dough made with a lower quality flour is better than an "unready" one with bread flour.

I 'll have to repeat this experiment anyway, because i'm not as meticulous and consistent as you are, so i might have just put more effort in the AP one just to prove myself my point

Bye!

[Pete-zza]

Carlo,

Usually the biggest complaint you hear about short-term, few-hours doughs is the lack of real crust flavor, followed by light crust coloration and sub-par texture. You are one of the very few, along with pizzanapoletana (Marco), to mention the digestibility aspect on this forum. I, myself, was unaware of it until the chief pizza maker at Naples 45 in New York City mentioned it to me a few years ago while I was in the restaurant discussing pizza with him, and I remember being puzzled by it. When Marco subsequently mentioned it on this forum, that was only the second time I heard of it and it brought back my memory of my meeting with the Naples 45 pizzaiolo. So, I suspect that most people either aren't aware of the phenomenon or it simply isn't a factor or a concern for them, especially for those who are young and have cast-iron stomachs. And, for some, a pizza that can be made in a few hours is good enough reason to make the pizza, even though it might mean some discomfort from a digestibility standpoint. Having made several few-hours doughs over the last month or so, I can say that they would not be my first choice. As previoiusly indicated, I don't mind waiting for a dough to develop. I leave to others to decide whether to do the same thing.

You are correct that a higher protein/gluten flour can tolerate a longer fermentation time than a lower protein/gluten flour and this may reflect itself in results such as you experienced. But, since I have not done a side-by-side test such as you did, I look forward to the results of your next experiment on this subject. But, whatever the results, I think you have done the forum a service by once again bringing the digestibility issue to the attention of its members.

Peter

[Wallman]

Tom Lehmann meets Two-Buck Chuck.  Just for kicks I used about 3 oz. of Charles Shaw Cabernet in place of the equivalent amount of water in the basic Lehmann recipe.  I then cooked the pizza follow Pete's hot weather directions (short prebake, on a screen).  The pizza came out pink, but tasted pretty good, really not much flavor difference.  The crust was a little leathery due to the longer cooking time at lower temperature.

[Pete-zza]

Wally,

The pizza actually looks quite good . I have read about using wine in a pizza dough but have never actually tried it. You are unlikely to see pizza operators use either wine or beer in a pizza dough because of concerns that children will be eating the pizza--even though all that is left after the bake is flavor/color components but no alcohol.

Tom Lehmann addresses the use and limitations of using wine in pizza dough as follows, from http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi?noframes;read=17723:

How does having wine in a dough recpe do ?
: recipe is from Vogue magazine, Feb. 2005..
: water is 44%, white wine is 14%, in Baker's per
: centage

: Can I ferment iit in the cooler overnight in
: the standard way or use within 6 hours like
: a same day dough....

: I can supply other ingredient % if needed
: Otis
Otis;
The wine will be like the addition of a flavoring material. The fruity flavor of the wine may come through, and the flavor of the additional alcohol may also come through. Cooking wines are widely used even in baking. Cooking wine is less expensive than drinking wine as it has salt added to it to render it undrinkable, but in cooking/baking, the salt in the wine can be easily adjusted for by adding less salt to the product formulation. If I remember correctly, cooking wine has 2% salt added to it. One of our readers might be able to confirm or correct me on this. Until the total alcohol content reaches 11% in the dough it should perform normally. So I would say that you should be able to continue handling the dough with wine in your normal manner.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Peter

[Wallman]

To be honest, I was a little surprised that their wasn't more fruity flavor in the crust, the Two-Buck Chuck is a good wine to use for cooking, since it doesn't have extra salt and it doesn't taste too bad (certainly not at the price Trader Joe's charges).  The dough did rise for two days and there was no alcohol flavor.  I may play around with a white wine or beer to see how if affects the flavor and browning.  The red wine would make a good Valentine's Day pizza!

BTW, I'm heading to Pittsburgh this weekend and will be making a visit to Penn Mac to load up on tomatoes, cheese, meats and tomatoes -- although, I should have lots of home grown San Marzanos in a few weeks.

[abc]

Pete, does Tom Lehmann not believe in an autolyze?   Do NY pizza places employ this technique? DiFaras?  PFTaylor comment?

Have there been any pizza operators that employ an autolyze?

I'll have to thumb through Reinhart's book again but I'm alomst certain he doesn't suggest employing an autolyze... and his book was built upon travels and time inside pizzerias...

[Pete-zza]

abc,

In October of 2004, I discussed the very subject you raised in some detail, at Reply 43 of this thread at Page 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5475.html#msg5475. At the time of that post, I had done a search for the term “autolyse” at the PMQ Think Tank--which is a forum for professional pizza operators--and I was unable to find a single reference. When I repeated the search today at the original PMQ Think Tank (the archives, before the forum software was recently changed), I found one reference, in a question posed to Tom Lehmann, and I believe the term was actually misused by the poster. I believe I have read just about everything that Tom has written on the subject of dough and I have never seen any reference by him in writing to autolyse. If he had mentioned it, I would have surely noted it because I am sensitive to the topic. His failure to mention autolyse leads me to believe that autolyse is not a technique used by traditional pizza operators. Some Italian pizza operators apparently use a form of rest period, a riposo, but I don't know if that is considered a classical autolyse.

I might also add, however, that recently I discovered that the use of autolyse is increasing among artisanal pizza operators. The source of this revelation was Evelyne Slomon, who raised the subject in a post in a thread at the new PMQ Think Tank forum, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?t=197. I posted in response to her post because of my interest in the subject, which led to an elaboration by Evelyne of the current status of autolyse among artisan pizza makers. You may find her remarks of interest, along with her other interesting comments on her personal experiences in the profession. BTW, if you saw the recent History Channel piece on pizza, you would have seen Evelyne in several segments of the program. 

To put matters in some perspective, autolyse was first mentioned on this forum in August 2003, and started to attract the membership’s interest in a serious way shortly after I joined the forum in early August of 2004. My first use of autolyse with a Lehmann dough was in early October of 2004. As far as Peter Reinhart’s book is concerned, he does call for use of rest periods. In his case, all the ingredients for many of his dough recipes are mixed together in a bowl before subjecting the dough to a brief rest period (I believe it is only 5 minutes). His rest period in not a classical autolyse as devised by Professor Calvel, but confers some of the same benefits as the classical autolyse. 

Peter

[Wallman]

Reinhart does call for a 5 minute rest period in his recipes in American Pie.

[David]

I might also add, however, that recently I discovered that the use of autolyse is increasing among artisanal pizza operators. The source of this revelation was Evelyne Slomon, who raised the subject in a post in a thread at the new PMQ Think Tank forum, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?t=197. I posted in response to her post because of my interest in the subject, which led to an elaboration by Evelyne of the current status of autolyse among artisan pizza makers. You may find her remarks of interest, along with her other interesting comments on her personal experiences in the profession. BTW, if you saw the recent History Channel piece on pizza, you would have seen Evelyne in several segments of the program.  

Peter

Thanks Peter for the link .I was surprised to read the following comment:

"Finished dough does not have to be mixed until it is as smooth as a baby's bottom, it only needs to be mixed as far as cleaning the sides of the bowl and coming together. You can test a piece by stretching it over your knuckles, if it is elastic and stretches into a thin "veil" it is mixed enough, if it tears, it needs a bit more mixing time."

The only time my dough can be stretched out to resemble a veil is after about 16 hrs of fermentation!
Is this a comment specifically about the Tom Lehmann style dough (which I've never attempted BTW)?

[abc]

yes, that does read rather odd?  are we mixing biscuits?

anyway, back to the original question about ny street pizza places using a rest period (for their dough) or not... it does make sense to let the flour hydrate...  for some reason i'd be surprised if a rest period does not exist.