Author Topic: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza (Read 959617 times)

Pete-zza · « **Reply #480 on:** August 15, 2006, 07:42:57 PM »

abc,

It's a pizza operation, using a conveyor. The member in question is now in the process of expanding the business in ways that are common here but essentially unknown in China. And his Lehmann NY style pizzas are getting rave reviews in spite of the presence of the likes of Pizza Hut and Papa John's. When I originally suggested the Lehmann dough formulation, he had no pizza experience but he is an entrepreneur who believes in himself (he left the U.S. to go to China) and the potential for the China market. It took him several iterations with the doughs to get things right (I had given him a copy of my Excel spreadsheet to work from), and he had to do some experimentation with locally available ingredients, but he persevered.

The Internet played a central role in all of this. Emails with photo attachments and freebie Internet VOIP calls from China to Texas were the ways problems were addressed. I also linked him to articles and items from the forum and from the PMQ forum to address issues that I had no direct experience with. And he spent time searching and reading things from the forum. Ten years ago, or even 5 years ago, none of this would have been possible. For me, it was a lot of fun. And I didn't have to leave the chair in front of my computer, from which I am posting this. It was all done over the Internet, without ever having met the person face to face. When you think about it, it is actually quite amazing.

Peter

Wallman · « **Reply #481 on:** August 20, 2006, 08:15:55 PM »

I've been having problems with tears and forming my dough lately, so I after reading this thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2632.20.html) tried an autolyse which several members suggest makes the dough easier to handle. I can report this was my experience. I used a traditional autolyse (flour and water mixed, 20 minute rest, then added IDY, oil and then salt), dough was 74F after mixing) on my latest Lehmann style pizza. The dough was made with cold water (55F), 63% hydration and a 41.5 hour refridgerator rise.

After 2 hours warming at room, the dough was very smooth and stretched easily to 16 inches. Actually it was a little bigger than 16 inches and it stretched beyond the sides of my peel. The pizza got a little mishaped as it came of the peel as you can see in the photos below.

The pizza was topped with a mix of fresh cow moz. and buffalo moz., crushed tomato sauce, mushrooms, and EVOO on the rim and drizzled over the top. I baked the pizza in a 550F oven on tiles on the bottom rack, for 7 1/2 minutes. A bit of parmesan cheese was added after removal from the oven. The crust was nicely browned and puffy. Pete mentions getting a slightly breadlike consistency in his efforts with an autolyse. I found there was a little bit of that in the crust, but not reallly enough to cause me any concern. All in all, the autolyse really seemed to help. I tried Varasano's "wet mixing" technique on an A16 style dough and reported on that effort in this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.280.html

Pete-zza · « **Reply #482 on:** August 20, 2006, 09:07:59 PM »

Wally,

You are doing the right thing by experimenting with concepts like autolyse. The objective is to get a dough that performs best for you and in your particular oven configuration. Your Lehmann pizza looks great, as did the Neapolitan pie that you reported on at the A16 thread. I can see that you have been paying close attention to the best ideas on the forum and implementing them successfully in your pizzas. Your progress has been impressive.

As you noted, I have experimented with autolyse on several occasions. I liked it best when used in the context of natural preferments being used as the leavening agent. I can't explain why that is so. The last "pure" autolyse experiment with the Lehmann dough formulation produced a soft, breadlike crumb, as can be seen here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5443.html#msg5443. In that instance, I was using a food processor, a ten-minute autolyse (the classic Calvel autolyse), and the Giusto brand of high-gluten flour. Maybe if I used a stand mixer, the KASL, and a mixing/kneading regimen such as you used, my results could well be different. I am a congenital experimenter who rarely makes the same dough twice. But I know from experimenting with pftaylor's Raquel dough making procedures, which uses autolyse-like rest periods, the dough is one of the easiest to handle. And I have no doubt that Jeff Varasano's methodology produces similarly good results. And, as you know, Evelyne is a strong proponent of the autolyse. She recommends only a 5-minute autolyse rest period for a single dough ball, so that might be something you might want to consider in a future effort, but in the context of the overall dough make-up protocol you recently used.

Peter

abc · « **Reply #483 on:** August 23, 2006, 12:51:22 PM »

i'm a bit torn with the autolyse duration... give it 5 min, give it 20 min, 30... what's the notion on giving it only 5 min... is there no tangible benefit for p.dough to run a autolyse longer than 5min i do wonder. is it due to concern about the dough batch warming up too much if left out 25min longer for a 30min auto, vs. a 5min auto?

if such, there hasn't been suggestion that a longer than 5min autolyse is fine as long as the room is temp. controlled or something.

scott r · « **Reply #484 on:** August 23, 2006, 01:11:53 PM »

I have also been experimenting with the autolyse lately to try to determine if it is for me. On really hot days I have had to put the mixing bowl (covered) in the fridge for the autolyse. So far my doughs have come out of the mixer with my targeted temp, and I have noticed no negative side effects.

Wallman · « **Reply #485 on:** August 23, 2006, 09:31:31 PM »

I didn't notice the doughs being particularly warmer after the autolyse. I would think the speed and length of mixing would have a more pronounced effect on temp. than a rest -- unless your home is really warm or your yeast is really active.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #486 on:** August 23, 2006, 10:59:53 PM »

From the reading I have done on the subject of autolyse, I have not discerned a correlation between dough batch size and the length of the autolyse rest period. I have seen from 5 minutes to an hour. Fifteen minutes seems to be common when making a loaf of bread weighing about a pound or so, although I don't know if there is any basis to assume that a pizza dough of the same weight should automatically have the same autolyse period. Intuitively, it would seem that a small dough ball should react to its internal and external environments more slowly than a large dough ball, but I don't know it that applies to autolyse to be able to say that a small dough batch requires a shorter autolyse period than a large dough batch size.

In my kitchen in the summer, I do know that the dough temperature will rise during the autolyse period. When I know I am going to use autolyse, I lower the water temperature I plan to use--which I have calculated--by about 5 degrees or so to compensate for the temperature rise. In the winter, I would do the reverse.

Peter

abc · « **Reply #487 on:** August 28, 2006, 10:47:08 AM »

pete, i thought a larger dough mass would be the one adapting to change slower, not the other way around.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #488 on:** August 28, 2006, 12:02:36 PM »

abc,

Thanks. You caught my error. I meant to say it the other way around, although my comment on the autolyse time was stated as I intended. But even correcting my statement, it may still be wrong. After posting on this subject, I read an article about dough strength by the Head Instructor with the San Francisco Baking Institute, who mentioned the concept of "mass effect" that says that the chemical reactions will happen faster with a large dough batch than with a small dough batch. I spent a fair amount of time searching the net to find more on this topic but couldn't find anything directly on point. The subject isn’t an easy one to convert to keywords for search purposes.

Maybe if our resident dough expert DINKS reads this, he can help shed some light on the concept of “mass effect”. Or, maybe Evelyne knows the answer.

Peter

SLICEofSLOMON · « **Reply #489 on:** August 28, 2006, 01:37:09 PM »

Hi,

About dough mass--yes it is true, a larger mass of dough will rise faster because the heat given off during fermentation actually makes a large piece of dough rise faster than a small one, it will also over-blow faster than a small mass. As far as inititial dough temperature, a smaller mass will heat up faster in the mixer but it will cool faster in the refrigerator. As far as the autolyse for a single dough ball, 5 minutes is plenty of time--there will not be a noticable difference in the dough or the finished product if left longer. Bread and pizza are very similiar and lots of bread baking techniques enhance the art of pizza making, but there are some very important differences between bread baking and pizza.

If you are baking in a very warm kitchen, you probably want to lessen the time the dough spends at such warm temperatures unless you want to use the dough faster--within 24 hours.

Evelyne

Pete-zza · « **Reply #490 on:** August 28, 2006, 02:49:25 PM »

Thank you, Evelyne,

The article I mentioned appears at http://www.sfbi.com/pdfs/NewsF04a.pdf#search=%22autolyse%20time%20period%22. However, since I have found the above link to be balky at times, I have typed below the part of the article that deals with mass effect. Even apart from the discussion on that topic, I found the article to be excellent for its discussion of dough strength, which is something that applies to pizza dough in much the way it does for bread dough, which was the subject of the article.

The quantity or "mass" of dough that is allowed to ferment also plays a role in the strength of the dough. A larger piece of dough has the tendency to increase in strength faster compared to a smaller piece of dough. This is due to the fact that in larger masses of dough, all the chemical reactions happen faster and a better environment is created with conditions more favorable for microorganism activity: temperature, availability of nutrients, etc.

This is what we refer to in the baking industry as the mass effect. This mass effect is particularly important to take into consideration when applying formulas developed for home baking to production or vice versa. For smaller batches of dough (up to 6 lbs.), longer fermentation time might be necessary, while larger batches (50 lbs. and up) might require shorter fermentation time.

On a somewhat related matter, I notice that many people will knead a small amount of dough, or let it ferment or rise, for the same times specified in recipes for much larger amounts of dough. This suggests the need to adjust the times when making small amounts of dough. Since the required times to use for the smaller dough batches are not normally given, this means that one has to look for the conditions of the dough that signify that it has been kneaded enough or fermented/risen enough. This usually comes from experience and practice.

Peter

dinks · « **Reply #491 on:** August 29, 2006, 02:08:57 PM »

PETER:
Good morning. "THANK-YOU", Peter for the welcomed comment you quoted me being a dough expert. If the truth be told we all know that you & Ms. EVELYNE are the experts in this forum. I have learned much from both of you. Hear are my many Thanks.
I came across this post #488 accidently yesterday I was just lurking. I belong to another culinary baking club where I help the ladies with answers of why their cakes sink in the middle after baking, ete. I re- balance their formulas & make recomendations to help them with various remedys.. That is why I am tardy today.

Peter, the question posed is "CHEMICAL REACTIONS WILL HAPPEN FASTER..........."

Soooo !!!, I will only address myself to that quiry today. Peter, I must state that I have a problem with that question
Why... Chemical reactions can occur YES !!! "POSITIVELY OR NEGITIVELY. I am not able to determine which. So,let's do both. In a few words we both know or we should know that a dough mass approaching & then exceeding 90 degees internal temp. will not just give off unpleasant odors but WILL effect the flavor of the baked product.... we now will have a bundle of White trash.
What else do we know.... we know or else we should know that the Fermentation cycle as a matter of course produces heat in the dough mass. Peter to quote you ..you constantly state to strive for 75 to 77 degrees of internal temp after mixing. That notion is the notion of the European yeasted lean dough bread bakers. The American bakers
say otherwise they say 78 to 82 degrees is optimum. Peter, I had to lay that for ground work so that I could tie it in & make my case. Recently I related in another post when mixing formulas that exceed 10 pounds of flour the yeast amount should be reduced Why... because the fermentation cycle produces more heat in the dough mass than in it's proper ratio/proportion. Sooo, ... this condition itself will bring the dough temp. to the 90 degree area very quickly... that is VERY UN-GOOD !!!. In essence this doesn't happen because the moment the batch comes out of the vat the sous chef calls for 2,3,5 apprentice bakers out & instructs them to scale & round, Most likely 1.5 to 2 pound balls... covered well to insure the dough doesn't acquire a skin on the surface. Then after ferm. Shaping & into the proof box with approx 98 /103% humidity. Slash & bake. End of this portion.
Peter, my friend,I am getting tired now, My eyes hurt & my 1 finger typer is getting cramps. I can type 7 1/2 words per minute .... but I can erase 175 words per minute... that is still a record I believe..
Perhaps later I will post the other side of this quiry.

Good luck Peter, keep up the good work & keep the troops in line.

~DINKS

dinks · « **Reply #492 on:** August 30, 2006, 11:08:19 AM »

PETER:
Good morning to you. Peter after much thought on this subject I come to the realization that I just am not able to add anything further that would amount to valuable information... at least not at this time. If I do, I will discuss it with you.
Till then I am looking forward to reading your posts along with our other knowledeable forum members. There is so much to learn about baking science. I firmly believe this is the forum to achieve that.
Good luck to all & enjoy the rest of the day.

~DINKS.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #493 on:** August 30, 2006, 01:48:36 PM »

DINKS,

As a self-taught pizza maker, I am always grateful for any advice and insights you can offer on the matter of doughs, especially since I suspect that not everything I read or think I know about the subject is bound to be right.

Peter

abc · « **Reply #494 on:** September 16, 2006, 03:32:57 PM »

boy, not much pic activity recently for this thread...

in my curiosities from this thread http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1548.40.html in the dough forum I've been applying All Trumps flour to the Lehmann recipe.

using the awesome dough calculator, i made 4 dough balls of 16", .09 thickness (just to see what a bit thinner would be like than what i had been doing) 2+ day rise in the fridge.

the pictures don't show the difference i've been experiencing now in non-elite NYC pizzalike hints of crust after taste, and the feel of the finished product.
my pictures are poor, particularly for the dough color IMHO as it's more yellow than it actually was. It was evening so i didnt have natural light and i did not activate the fluorescent mode of my digicam nor do i have any post processing software.

i refrained from lifting up the pie to shoot the underside because i was only taking pictures when they were hot... the pictures would have come out with a flash, and my flash would have overly brightened it up where the correct shade of the crust wouldn't be portrayed. 550 degree oven as usual, and my experiences thus far with this bromated AT flour is that it's more soft than it is purely crispy... as is most generic corner NYC pizza places. Leaving it at room temp for 30 min, and tossing it back into the warm stone for 4 min. after the oven had been shut down for a while... and the slices come out no more than thinly crackly... a very good result.

the KASL in my usage, develops too much of a firmed up crust in the oven (not even talking about reheating). KASL was great for helping me reach another level in my pizza making, but i'm leaning on not implementing it when i want to replicate a NYC generic street slice.

what I think I've found is i'd like to use a bit more salt than the norm, which i'll try next time... i want to see if this will tighten up the dough a bit more, and i might try a 3 day rise, and quit frankly i think nyc doughs are a bit saltier than i've been making them.

My next tests may be revisits of 18" pies, and to utilize 'pizza sauce' like don pepinos' that i recently ordered (another thread) to further a generic NYC street pie experience.

and further down the line, perhaps tapping into elite territory discoveries again, to mix KASL w/ AT flour 50/50... as others have done, and revisit self crushed tomatoes and fresh mozzarella only, pies.

these photos are of pies using the cheese first, then sauce method... i've been overly good in placing cheese near the crust rim, that i don't have a 'sauce edge' like many NYC pizzas. perhaps when i make 18" pies, i will try the full affect.

scott r · « **Reply #495 on:** September 16, 2006, 05:43:16 PM »

abc, your pizza looks perfect! You should be very proud of your achievements.

abc · « **Reply #496 on:** September 17, 2006, 11:13:33 AM »

thanks scottr, i'm very much still going at it though... and i've got to queue up a dough batch such that it'd be ready during the day, than the night time...for picture advantages... it's been a while, but due to my schedule it's been hard.... i've got to make more pizzas too because my fresh grown basil is probably only going to last outside for another 6 wks before it starts withering... it's already starting to sprout flower tops.

Bill/SFNM · « **Reply #497 on:** September 17, 2006, 11:39:55 AM »

Quote from: abc on September 17, 2006, 11:13:33 AM

t's already starting to sprout flower tops.

Pinch off the flower tops - better flavor in the leaves and longer production. You can use the flower tops in a sauce.

Bill/SFNM

abc · « **Reply #498 on:** September 18, 2006, 06:51:19 PM »

thanks for the advice.... what i have on two plants is about a six inch stem at the top counting down, where i hit the last bunch of basil leaves... is a six inch step studded with like seed pods... do i rip off this whole stem (shortening the plant) or leave the stem, just try to strip it of all the pods?

on other plans, i got the beginning of some sprouting right off of the leaves, so i plucked those away.... but the stem situation... i'm a bit of wonderment on what to do.

Bill/SFNM · « **Reply #499 on:** September 18, 2006, 07:36:58 PM »

I cut off the entire flower stem, leaving only leaf stems. More leaf stems will grow out if it isn't too late in the season. I pinch off anything that looks like it will become a flower. Works for me.

Bill/SFNM