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Author Topic: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina  (Read 296262 times)

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Offline BTB

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #440 on: March 07, 2011, 09:56:53 AM »
Regarding the cheese in the pizza above, I think the amount of mozzarella cheese that I used was roughly 4.5 oz. plus, plus for a 6" to 7" diameter pie, which I think is about an oz. or two too much, but who's counting?  The cheese was Polly-O Whole Milk cheese which won the Slice website's No. 1 pizza cheese rating in the last couple of week's (yes, we know it's owned by Kraft) and who Sliced described it as a "low-moisture" cheese, which I'm still wondering about.  But it was deeeeeelicious.

                                                                                         --BTB

Offline dbgtr

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #441 on: March 07, 2011, 10:05:35 AM »
BTB, could you post a link to the Slice review?

Offline BTB

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #442 on: March 07, 2011, 10:26:09 AM »
BTB, could you post a link to the Slice review?
Yes, I don't know about "the best" but it is very, very good.  See: http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/02/the-pizza-lab-the-best-low-moisture-mozzarella-for-pizzas.html .  But I didn't think it was "low moisture."  But I'm not the pizza cheese expert.  Just a taster.

--BTB

Edit:  Am having a little problem reciting the website, but see if the above modification worked.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2011, 10:33:37 AM by BTB »

Offline fireman117

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #443 on: March 07, 2011, 01:13:57 PM »
Hi All,
Well, I made it last night and we all thought it was AWESOME! The oiliness seemed to go away for the most part after the 24 hr rise. I didn't see the later posts concerning the rolling, and I did that, but it didn't seem to hurt it one bit. I simply trimmed the excess off with a shears and did the pinching thing. My boss is from the Chicago area, and a Lou Malnati's nut, so I gave him a cold slice this morning. He took a sniff, then a bite, and exclaimed it was 99% there compared to Malnati's, so I guess it went OK.
BTB, I changed up a couple of things from you're recipe that I'd like to report on. I used Dakota Maid bread flour instead of KAAP and some semolina that comes in bulk from the Italian Grocer here in town. I used your spice set except for the ginger, because I didn't know if you use fresh or powder, or how much, and that's one of those spices that can get out of hand in a hurry. Overall the seasoning was subtle. Also, I thought the Penzeys pizza seasoning was a very good way to go. I drained the 6in1's to remove some of the water. That concentrated the taste, but left the pie a little too dry for my taste. And I baked it in a Sassafras 10" ceramic dish, (the same stuff as a pizza stone I think), and used what is called a pie ring around the edge. The dish and the ring worked great. The pie slipped right out of the dish was evenly browned on the bottom and the ring kept the edge from getting burned. Overall a very good first experience. I'll post some pix when I get home tonight.
Thanks all for the help,
Eric

Offline fireman117

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #444 on: March 08, 2011, 04:43:27 PM »
Here's a few pix from my first attempt at a Chicago style.

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Offline fireman117

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #445 on: March 08, 2011, 04:45:58 PM »
...and some more

Offline BTB

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #446 on: March 12, 2011, 03:32:12 PM »
Very nice job, Eric, your pizza looks very tasty.  Even tho the pan is not one of those normally used, as well as the pie ring, it shows that "there's more than one way to skin a cat."  Opps . . . my cat just ran under the bed! ! !

Several had emailed me inquiring about the formulations of the 2 small pizzas that I made above.  Global events have really diverted attention from some of our more mundane tasks.  My thoughts and prayers go out, of course, to those suffering in Japan and Libya (and elsewhere).

With the 2 pizzas referenced in Rely #438 above, as indicated there the basic formulation (with 1.5% bowl residue) was

Flour Blend* (100%)
Water (45%)
ADY (.6%)
Salt (1%)
Olive Oil (6%)   
Corn Oil (12%) 
Butter/Margarine (6%) - softened
Sugar (1.5%) 
TF = 0.111

With use of the Deep-Dish Pizza Dough Calculating Tool (see http://www.pizzamaking.com/dd_calculator.html), one can easily determine in seconds the exact amounts and weights of the ingredients for any size pizza they would want to make.

For one of the pizzas (6") the flour blend was simply 80% KAAP and 20% semolina flour.  The other pizza (7") was 80% KAAP, 14% semolina and 6% white rice flour.  As the crust was a little thin, I think next time I will revert the Thickness Factor (TF) back to my standard .125, altho the difference may be insignificant.  With both I did add 1/4th tsp of NFDM, which is completely optional.

As I indicated elsewhere, my son said the one with the small amount of rice flour was the "clear winner."  I love real good pizza so much that I have a tough time saying that one is much better than another, and here they both were great.  And I love the idea of the small size pizzas to try different variations in the dough recipe to have a side-by-side comparison with.

Offline BTB

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #447 on: March 12, 2011, 03:36:58 PM »
I used the Malnati's tomato sauce, which is "out of this world" great.  But there is some great comparable stuff out there, too.  I baked the pizza on a low oven rack at between 450 and 475 degree F until done and that of course depends upon the characteristics of one's oven.  When in doubt use mid oven level or one level down from mid-level IMO.  I think after this posting, I'm going to head for the kitchen to see what kind of pizza to prepare for tomorrow's use.

                                                                                                           --BTB          ;D



Offline BTB

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #448 on: March 12, 2011, 03:39:30 PM »
And, of course, some simple added ingredients, besides the Polly-O cheese mentioned above, makes for a great tasting pizza meal.

Offline Clive At Five

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #449 on: March 31, 2011, 12:48:17 PM »
So, BTB, are you still making one-day doughs, mainly? About how long are you letting them sit before the first punch-down and then before panning them?

I sort of decided on a whim to make pizza tonight -- gotta clear out some leftover toppings from my "nearlypolitan" experiment last week. ;) I've been really looking forward to trying DD again! Will post results tonight!

--Update:

Dough-ball is the best one yet. (Did I mention I finally got a scale?) Unlike previous iterations, it isn't dry and play-doh-y, though it *may* be on the slightly-oily side. Slightly. Took about 2 minutes, max, to bring together. Currently resting in a warm oven! =)

--Update 2:

Panned this baby. It felt unlike any other dough I've handled. It might have been just a bit too wet, but there was absolutely no elasticity in the dough whatsoever. It was like I was molding clay into my pan. Since I do not have any smaller form-factor deep dish pans (yet), I used my cast iron skillet. 7" bottom, angled into a 9.5" top. I plugged BTB's most recent formulation (just up the page a few posts) into the DD_calculator, with a .125 TF, otherwise, everything else was identical.

I had some leftover cheese: a half package of shredded motz and some "fresh" motz from the aforementioned "nearlypolitan" experiment. I know, I know, the fresh motz is too wet... I ignored the warnings.

The sausage was a spicy italian from the deli counter at my local grocery store (Cub Foods, a Supervalu chain). In previous pizzas and pastas, I discovered it was underwhelmingly un-spicy, so I added just the lightest dusting of cayenne pepper (and I'm glad that I did - it's spectacular).

I added some sauted shrooms, banana peppers (my current favorite pizza topping) and a few more mozzarella pearls, in hopes that they would bubble up through the sauce.

The sauce is Muir Glen crushed tomatoes and Red Gold diced, further chopped into a bit more pulpy of a consistency. I had purchased a lot of fresh basil, so that's in there too. I was just a bit short on sauce from last week that I had to supplement with about a quarter to half cup of Classico Marinara. Not ideal, but it wasn't the end of the world.

I wedged some pepperoni in at a slight angle to promote a bit of charring, which I like. Lastly, I dusted in parmasan.

More pics to follow...

-Clive
« Last Edit: April 01, 2011, 09:51:46 AM by Clive At Five »

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Offline Clive At Five

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #450 on: March 31, 2011, 10:48:27 PM »
Since I've had issues with too much heat in the past, I cooked her at "400 degrees" (I'm presuming it's hotter) on the middle rack. I checked roughly every 5 minutes. (Yes I was paranoid!) After 25 minutes, the edge was pulling away from the side and the pepperoni was starting to char so I decided to yank it.

The pizza was a bit wet, but I figured on account of the cheese, mushrooms and banana peppers, it would be. The bottom crust was just slightly under-cooked, so I would consider upping the cook-time by another 5 or so minutes. I think the temp was about right.

Overall, this pizza tasted fantastic. Hands-down the best pizza I've made. That's of course not to say that I'm totally satisfied, and like you, I now begin the quest to tweak and "perfect" this recipe to my liking... if there is such a thing as a perfect pizza! ;)

I'd like to thank you all for helping me finally get to a good starting point for my deep dish journey!

-Clive

Offline BTB

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #451 on: April 01, 2011, 10:52:33 AM »
Good work and pictures, Clive.  I like a guy (or gal) who puts so much work and passion into something they really love so much.  I have lots of thoughts and comments on your great pizzamaking work and I'll probably return periodically to express them as they come to mind.

Initially, . . . . my first punch down is 45 to 60 minutes after putting the dough ball together and leaving it in a very, very slightly warmed oven (roughly 100 degrees F).  50% of the time I return it to the slightly warmed oven for a like period of time or then just leave it on the counter (away from my AC ducts) and again punch it down after a similar period.  I don't have a hard and fast rule here and just every now and then over 6 to 12 hours (for same day) punch it down and reform the dough ball.  But over the 6 to 12 hour period, I punch it down 3 to 4 times max. (probably more closer to 3 times). 

Your description of the dough seems to be very good, i.e. "on the slightly oily side."  If some are concerned about it being too oily, then a little -- but just a little -- of AP bench flour would be fine.  Your description of the molding clay is not bad and may be right on.  I have no experience with a cast iron pan but it should do the job nicely.  As I expressed elsewhere, I am not a fan of hot or overly spicey sausage, but that's a personal like or dislike.  And I, too, on many occasions added bits and pieces of delicious tasting "fresh" mozzarella cheese, but realize it contributes sometimes (often times) to a "wetter" pizza.

The sauce sounds interesting and that can vary widely with people.  I love some Muir Glen and dislike some of their products, too.  Many like some of the Red Gold products of which I have no experience.  The other day I made some pizzas with 6 in 1 crushed and Muir Glen diced and it was super great.  Trial and error here with sauce is all important to match one's likes and dislikes.

The pepperoni method is a good one.  I've recently microwaved the pepperoni for 15 to 20 seconds on a paper towel, then added to the pizza about half way through the cooking period and that turns out well for me.  Good to try different ways here with good pepperoni.

The picture of the dough spread out into the pan looked slightly too oily, but pictures of that can be very deceiving and it probably was just fine.  And your description of it holding up well and not falling down on the edges seems to be right on as to what it should be.  So I would be reluctant to do that differently.

Of course you know, we Chicago Style deep dish enthusiasts are not big at all on the use of shredded cheese for this style pizza.  I will confess, however, that on ocassion (when I've had nothing else in the refrigerator) that I've used such.  But sliced cheese here generally gives better results from a number of vantage points.

Incredibly great pictures and results, tho, and I'll return with some more thoughts later.  Again, nice job and thanks especially for sharing with us so many pictures in the various stages of putting together and making your pizza.  It's close to being almost in your kitchen.

                                                                                    --BTB         :D

Offline tjkoko

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #452 on: April 23, 2011, 07:53:30 PM »
@BTB:

Member Pete-zaa referred me to you for the following question: the pans you use, are they PizzaTools Deep-Dish Stacking Pans with PSTK?

Best,
-T
Home bread baker for 10 years.

Offline BTB

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #453 on: April 24, 2011, 11:00:03 AM »
Member Pete-zaa referred me to you for the following question: the pans you use, are they PizzaTools Deep-Dish Stacking Pans with PSTK?
See answer at
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13646.msg136562.html#msg136562

Offline Clive At Five

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #454 on: May 12, 2011, 07:26:53 PM »
BTB, I have to ask you:

How do you manage such beautifully imperfect crusts? Even in the very first post on this thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg55567.html#msg55567) the texture and contours of your imperfect ball work their way through the pizza from start to finish... and the edges of your pies always look spectacular.

And even though your formula has changed a bit in the past few years, the perfect-imperfect crust is always there...

Is it, as they say, "all in the wrists?" or do you have some sort of "technique" you use? Being a little OCD, I've had a tendency to always flatten my edges to the same height but I've been attempting the "perfect-imperfect" look in my recent pies. They never quite look like yours...

Enviously,

-Clive

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Offline BTB

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #455 on: May 13, 2011, 10:02:44 AM »
How do you manage such beautifully imperfect crusts?

Clive, thanks.  I never thought I'd hear my deep dish crust described that way but think what you're saying by the phrase "imperfect crust" is that you like the somewhat jagged, irregular top part of the crust, which I do, too.  Kind of like the moonscape.  It cooks up to a nice crisp, tasty crust edge that I use to often -- but not always -- experience at Pizzeria Due and Lou Malnati's, as well as the original Gino's (prior to Gino's East). It is much better in my estimation than the "fat-lipped" rim that so many copy-cat pizzerias end up with their Chicago Style deep dishes.  Below is a picture from a Malanti's frozen pizza that I cooked up last year that shows a somewhat similar jagged, irregular edge of the crust.  And that's what I like.
 
The hydration that I aim for (just water wise) is 45 to 47%, with a recent preference for the low end of that range, esp. when adding in more softened butter as I've recently been doing (cause there's a little water in the butter).  I always hand mix deep dish dough and most often do minimal mixing, squeezing and kneading with my fingers and hands for 30 to 90 seconds, again with a recent preference for the low end of that range, too.  I most often prefer a one or two dough rise, punch down, and either wait till baking some several hours later or throw into a zip lock bag and refrigerate for use the following day.  If too oily, add a bit of flour, but not too much.  I like a little dry dough with a slight oily feel, if that makes any sense.  And I, like many professional bakers and others, am irrevocably committed to use of ADY only, but I know many think otherwise and imagine other stuff works too (but not for me).

I press out the dough ball on a slightly floured countertop to something approaching the diameter of the pan that I'm using that day (at least the 9" and smaller pan as larger ones take more work in the pan).  Then using a scraper, lifting it up and into the previously oiled or crisco-ed pan, and flattening it out more so into the pan.  Then I press, crimp and tightly pinch the dough against the sides of the deep dish pan and can care less if I have a perfect circle around the pan, but prefer instead that . . . as you said . . . it ends up being an imperfect circle.
 
On rare occasions -- but not too often -- I face the problem of having the dough not set up against the sides of the deep dish pan, but instead fall over (often because of too much oil in the pan or too oily a dough).  When that happens, I first press tightly again and again and wait 15 to 20 minutes to have the dough set up better.  If that doesn't work, I repeat the pinching and crimping and quickly throw it into a real hot oven in an attempt to set the dough against the pan, kind of a quick par bake.  Then afterwards before "dressing" the pizza, press and crimp the edge again.  That's not what they do at the classic pizzerias, of course, but here we're talking a different animal with use of home ovens.
 
Hope I've given you some thoughts and ideas. 
 
                                                                                                     --BTB

Offline Clive At Five

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #456 on: May 14, 2011, 05:52:39 PM »
Last night I made a deliberate attempt to NOT make a deliberate attempt... if that makes any sense!  :-D

The result was marginally improved. BTB, you must crimp very tightly! Where as your edge looks like a wall, mine looks like a slanted dike. I probably photographed the wrong slice to illustrate this, but you can still get the idea. I think I had too much dough, despite using a TF of 0.111 - my lowest yet, and one I see you recommended above. I've created some thick monsters in the past, so I've been trying to break that stigma! ;)

Also. I learned the unfortunate way not to grease the pan with butter. Not only is the smoke point too low, but my oven is so wonky that this happened after only 20 minutes at what it tried to convince me was "425" deg F. I've started referring to the beast as "Satan's Furnace" -- that [email protected] is always trying to wreck my pies.  >:D

:angel: Get behind my oven, Satan! :angel:

-Clive
« Last Edit: May 16, 2011, 11:39:26 AM by Clive At Five »

Offline jcg

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #457 on: May 31, 2011, 07:13:47 PM »
Well I am a newbie to the forum/website, but I read this whole thread to try to get up to speed before I make my first DD pizza. I also started a thread on hopefully trying to recreate Zachary's pizza (in Berkeley/Oakland/San Ramon CA), but haven't gotten any replies and I was anxious to make my first pizza so I going with BTB's recipe here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11855.msg110385.html#msg110385

After reading through the thread I decided to buy a scale today as it seems critical to success (I cook a lot but not with doughs). After using it I see why it is key and it was super easy. I have attached a pic of the dough after I kneaded it for ~60 seconds (it's now in the oven at 100 degrees). Hopefully it looks like it should. I wish I had found this forum last week as I ordered a 14" pizza pan thats already been delivered and I went with the shiny aluminum, but would have gotten the dark one had I known (next time). I'll post more pics so if something goes wrong people can help me figure out where the mistake was.

jcg

Offline jcg

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #458 on: June 01, 2011, 10:26:42 AM »
OK, a couple more notes to my previous post on my first attempt at dough and a DD pizza. I did change the bowl residue compensation in the dough calculator from 1.5 to .5% as there have been a few posts that said their dough came out a little thick, and since I was using a glass bowl to mix I wiped the final dough ball around and there really wasn't any residue left.

I also realized I made a mistake on the measurements. I calculated the weight for the flours (I used the 20% Bob's Red Mill semolina) plus salt (436.28 grams, 87g semolina/345g AP/). Had all these in a glass bowl that I briefly whisked to incorporate everything. I then melted the butter let it cool, and then added the olive/corn oil so it was all in one small bowl (olive 25g, corn 50g, butter 28g = 103 total). I proofed the ADY in 1.5 teaspoons of sugar and some water and let it sit until it was nice and foamy (about 10 min), and then I added more water to get to a total of 197.62 g. The issue is I forget the sugar weight of 6.48 g that was in the proofing water/ADY mixture. So I only added enough water to get the weight to 197.62 grams vs 204.1 grams. The dough seemed plenty moist enough, so hopefully this won't make a huge difference????

For mixing I added all the oil & water to the flour mixture, then combined with a wooden spoon and then kneaded it with my hands for ~60 seconds. Many posts talk about over kneading the bread (originally I was going to use my KA mixer, but thankfully learned that would have been a mistake), so hopefully I didn't under knead it (maybe someone can tell from the pics). After letting the dough rise for ~3 hours I took this picture (it had doubled in size but probably hard to tell from the picture), then punched it down and put it in a ziplok bag and it's currently in the fridge. I'll take it out 2 hours before making the pizza tonight and post final pics.

jcg
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 10:34:25 AM by jcg »

Offline jcg

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #459 on: June 02, 2011, 11:34:03 AM »
Well I'm very happy with my first attempt (wife loved it too!) as the pizza came out great (a few pics below). The minor error I mentioned in the last post on the amount of water (6g is less than 2 teaspoons) didn't seem to have any impact. I did a layer of provolone, fresh spinach, thinly sliced fresh mushrooms (1/8 " setting on mandoline), provolone cheese, fresh spinach, sauted onions, thinly sliced fresh mushrooms, grated mozzarella cheese, and finally the tomato sauce. This is the same layering that Zachary's does in their famous mushroom / spinach stuffed pizza except they don't use onions (but I love them so added that layer). See my other post on trying to recreate Zachary's crust, and hopefully we have some SF Bay Area people on this forum as so far no posts to that thread.

Anyways I was a tad worried that because the spinach / mushrooms were fresh that the pizza might get watery, but it didn't at all. I cooked the 14 " pizza in a 450 degree oven for about 35 min (lost track of exact time cause I just kept checking the crust till it looked right). My oven has a exposed heating element on the bottom, so I put a pizza stone on the lower rack, and then put the pan on top of the pizza stone just to protect against burning when the element turned on. I used 20% semolina and the crust is very good, but it definately has a corn bread type taste. I ate a Lou Malnati's many years ago when I was in Chicago, and just remember I thought it was very good. I think Zachary's just uses AP flour, so next time I'm going to leave out the semolina and see how that works (as I've gotten used to that taste and like it). Also with all the rave reviews about 6 in 1 tomatoes I decided to order some for my next pizzas as Amazon has an amazing price for an 8 pack of 28oz cans for only $16.79 with free shipping (orders of $25+).

If anyone has any thoughts that will improve my next attempt please let me know.

jcg
« Last Edit: June 02, 2011, 12:41:58 PM by jcg »

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