It's thin, crispy, tender....same techniques as a cracker, but made for the home

Started by fazzari, April 27, 2021, 04:38:37 PM

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fazzari

Hi Chau
I don't think so....I started my career working for an Abby's Pizza, which was an off shoot of Shakey's.  These two both had a laminated crust.  I later learned that Round Table also laminated.  But, when I look at other recipes, I don't see much use of the sheeters we use today.  The sheeters I am used to roll long sheets of laminated dough.  I just don't see much of that anywhere.

Having said that, Tom Lehman used to say, it is better to be consistent than good one day and not so good the next.  Thus the problems which can occur with lamination....it's an art to get consistent.  But, in my opinion, when the laminated cracker is really good, it's one of my favorite pizzas to eat.

Time baking a cracker is the same in commercial as in home oven.  A really good laminated cracker, (one where there is excellent heat transfer, and nice oven spring) bakes in about 5 to 8 minutes in a 550 degree oven.

I'd love to see the results of your efforts Chau

John

Jackie Tran

John. Thank you for the helpful reply.  The lazy part of me wants to skip lamination if possible, but my ocd also didn't want to make a critical misstep.  I will probably eventually test both just to make sure.  I figure the bake time would be similar to a thin NY pie after seeing your pictures but again wanted to make sure.   For my first attempt, I read through your thread and also the other popular cracker crust thread for ideas and a plan.  As a disclaimer, I've only eaten cracker crust pizza maybe 2x with the 2nd time being fairly recent.  I've also made an attempt at the Home Run Inn thin and crispy a few times.  While good, I did figure it was inherently different than a cracker crust.   I also wanted to make use of baking soda in my crust formula based on the desirable crust characteristics I got from using it a few years back in a few of my NY recipes.   

My starting formula is
100% AP flour
40% hot water (per your suggestion)
0.2% IDY
1% sugar
2% salt
10% lard
0.25% b. Soda

I wanted to avoid lamination if possible and parbaking (again laziness, but for this iteration, it was unavoidable and absolutely necessary).  The dough was handmixed quickly, balled up along with some dry bits, and into a sandwich ziplock bag and refrigerated.    I figured the overnight rest would rehydrate the dry bits but it did not.

The next day, the dough was brought to 90f in a warm proofer for an hour with zero noticeable rise.   Not sure if the initial warm dough killed off the yeast or I just need to use more next time   I will re-experiment again.  The dough rolled out easily to a dimes width, scored with a plate, and then rolled out again slightly thinner.   I then left the 3 skins to proof at room temps for another 3-4 hours uncovered to allow the dough to rise, aerate, and dry out a bit more.  Next time I will proof the skins covered.  The skins never did rise or dry out much.   They were easy to handle and manage  resembling uncooked tortilla dough.   

I baked them in my Carbon pizza oven but in hindsight the homeoven would have been better suited for this project.   It was windy outside and an absolutely nightmare to try and maintain a small upper flame going to achieve even a 4min bake time.   Next time I'll likely use the homeoven for a 6min bake (with parbaked crusts).

1st pie was a straight bake at 4m30s.   While decent it was not crackery but only along the edges.   The weight of the toppings did not allow for the airpockets to develop in the crust. 

2nd and 3rd pies were parkbaked for 2m then allowed to cooled, topped and rebaked for 2m and then 4m30s.   The 2min parbaked one was botched bc the upper flame kept going out and I would have to refire the oven multiple times which added too much upper heat.   The texture of the last pie was very crackery and very good although the rim was too dark.   Next time I will leave out the ldmp and cold ferment or RT ferment for a longer period of time.   Overall I am pleased with this first attempt and will try it again soon.   Thank you for sharing your tips and tricks here John. 

fazzari

I'd like to share another attempt at a  laminated cracker crust made from home.  On this one, I will lower the hydration to 45%.

The dough:

flour        100%     All Trumps
water        45%      197 degree water (microwaved)
salt           2.5%   
sugar        2  %
olive oil     4  %
yeast         .75%


Placed everything in the bowl of the KA mixer except the yeast.  Mixed on low 1 minute.  Added the water, and mixed an additional 1 more minute.  Divided the dough into 4 equal portions, rounded them, flattened them and let them rest 45 minutes in a bag.


9.16.24 crackerA.jpg9.16.24crackerB.jpg

fazzari

After 45 minutes, I sheeted each piece of dough as thin as I could.  I then stacked the 4 sheets on top of each other and sheeted this out to a 10 3/8 inch pizza weighing 8.1 ounces.

fazzari

What makes a cracker dough a cracker dough?  In my investigations I have found that all crackers are made from laminated doughs.  But puffed pastry is also made from laminated doughs.  Most cracker recipes have hydration rates from 29.5% to 34%.  Puff pastry recipes also call for low hydration rates, but they also include large amounts of shortening and eggs.

The layering process (lamination), improves the grain and texture of the finished product by reducing the size of large gas bubbles and by forming many nuclei for steam evolution as a result of of subdividing pockets of entrapped air.  "Formulas For Processes For Bakers"    by  Samuel Matz.

I've tried to show this before, and its hard to take a picture of.  Below is a cross section of the finished product I have just made.  I let it sit out at room temperature so I could show how it ferments.  You will notice, it is hard to find any layering.  You are looking a 4 extremely thin sheets of dough, stacked, and thinned out....making the 4 original sheets even thinner.  If I did this correctly, the final baked product will be crisp on the bottom, and very tender.  The heat transfer from bottom to top should be excellent making the cooking of raw meats very simple.

The final product will be baked after resting the refrigerator for 44 hours


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fazzari

It's bake time for this trial.  After lamination and sheeting, the skin was frozen, and then taken out and placed in the refrigerator for 43 hours.  Took the skin out, dressed it and baked it.

For over 50 years, this combination of pepperoni , fresh green peppers and fresh Italian sausage has been one of my 2  favorite pizzas.  For over 20 years, since I started experimenting making other doughs, I conclude that this style crust is also my favorite.

The following pizza was very good!!!  While resting in the refrigerator, I had the skin wrapped in parchment.....I should have also wrapped this in plastic as the skin lost a little moisture.  Usually I have a stack of skins refrigerating together which keeps them moist.  Anyhow....great lunch today!!9.18.24crackera.jpg9.18.24crackerb.jpg9.18.24crackerc.jpg9.18.24crackerd.jpg

barryvabeach

Nice photos, and yes, it is easy to see the separation in the second to last photo.
Current Ovens  -   BS, Halo Versa 16,  Effueno P150HA
Mixers .  Famag IM-5S,  Bosch Compact, Electrolux ( ANK )
Mills - Retsel, Lee .

Pizza-Face

@fazzari masterful!

I still follow your modified Reinhardt stretch and fold method, which I'm sure does not apply here, but is killer on other styles.

You say you freeze, then thaw in the fridge on parchment, so I assume you make the open air side of the skin to be on the bottom right? For the drier side to be the most crispy bottom, I assume?

Do you think an old wine bottle would be adequate to do the rolling on this recipe? Or is it just too tough?

PapaJawnz

I'm loving this John!  Thanks as always for your dedication and sharing bro   :chef:
Oven: Oster 10-in-1 Digital Air Fryer/Toaster Oven Combo (Max Temp 450F) - Steel: 12x12x0.25" A36 - Levain: Natural (started 11/7/23) - Mixer: Couple 'o Hands

kori

Quote from: Pizza-Face on September 21, 2024, 10:41:25 AM@fazzari masterful!

I still follow your modified Reinhardt stretch and fold met
Quote from: Pizza-Face on September 21, 2024, 10:41:25 AMI still follow your modified Reinhardt stretch and fold method
What is the method? I like to learn new things.   ;D
I SMILE AND WAVE....
Inhale pizza, exhale negativity.

Pizza Party Emozione, Pizza Party Bollore, Halo Versa 16 ready for duty!

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kori

I SMILE AND WAVE....
Inhale pizza, exhale negativity.

Pizza Party Emozione, Pizza Party Bollore, Halo Versa 16 ready for duty!

fazzari

Quote from: Pizza-Face on September 21, 2024, 10:41:25 AM@fazzari masterful!

You say you freeze, then thaw in the fridge on parchment, so I assume you make the open air side of the skin to be on the bottom right? For the drier side to be the most crispy bottom, I assume?

Do you think an old wine bottle would be adequate to do the rolling on this recipe? Or is it just too tough?
In a commercial setting, skins are stacked between parchment paper 5 high, and this stack is placed between two pizza pans.

At home, I stack them between parchment and then usually wrap in syran wrap to keep them moist.  I also try to knock off all exess flour before cooling.  When I dress the pizza, I look to put the moistest side down....I'm looking for quick heat transfer from the stone up through the skin.  I really don't know about a wine bottle.  The goal is to thin the skins with as little effort as possible, so I'd rather raise the hydration if thinning the dough is a problem.  You should get the exact same pizza.

John

fazzari

I decided to up the hydration to 55%.  In our commercial setting, the hydration is around 36%, so I'm going to attempt a laminated cracker dough at these higher rates and see what happens.

My procedures are exactly the same as the earlier experiments in this thread.  The only difference is the hydration.  The pictures will speak for themselves.

fazzari

This happens to be as good a laminated crust as I've ever had from anywhere.  A few things to consider:  1.  the dough is severely undermixed.  In fact it is so undermixed I have to pull all the pieces together to form a dough mass.  2.  by dividing the dough after mix into four separate doughs and flattening, I've eliminated most of the sheeting process that would have been needed to sheet the original mass.  3.  by using super hot water, it makes the little bit of sheeting left very simple  4.  because it takes less than two minutes to laminate the final 4 sheets, the dough is really worked very little.

The only other concern is sheeting the dough to the correct thickness factor.  A factor of 1 or just a little less is perfect.

This dough sat in the fridge for 29 hours prior to bake.  It was baked at 550 degrees for about 5 minutes 40 seconds.  My favorite photo of this pizza is the bottom shot of the crust.  Super tender, egg shell like.  

John

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