Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza

[scott r]

Definitely, especially if both are non bromated or both are bromated.  Malt or enzyme amounts might need to be adjusted slightly, but usually not.   Most American flours in the all purpose to high gluten range are malted or amended with enzymes, so if you compare a non malted to malted flour that would be the other variable.

I have even taken American flours and Italian flours and with hydration adjustments made pretty much identical bread and pizza.

[9slicePie]

Once I started selling pizza to people rather than just making it for myself and friends I ditched the bromate.

Why?

All trumps is a great flour but I would like to get away from bleached bromated flours.

Same question.

[scott r]

bromate is thought to be carcinogenic

[Jersey Pie Boy]

Thanks for the answer on the hydration, Scott.
It's asking questions like that one that shows my amateur status is intact

[9slicePie]

bromate is thought to be carcinogenic

Gotchya.

After the responses in the following thread and some googling, I've reached a point where I'll consume doughs made with bromated flour.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=69807.0

[Georgev]

7-15 minutes is standard for bromated high gluten flours in a. 60qt, but most important is at what hydration. You could mix for 10 minutes up to 20 minutes with non bromated flour to try to match the bromated.  There are many factors though..it depends on where you are for hydration, when you ball the dough, how much salt, how much oil, how you ball, cold ferment or room temp ferment and how long etc etc. If your not seeing as much puff with non bromated with all else the same there are lots of things to get you more, mixing longer is one of them.

Most of the time I see non matching of hydration as the reason why people prefer one flour over the other.  One brand of flour with the same protein content as another brand can sometimes require 5 points different to be a true hydration match.  If hydration isn't properly matched you would need to do a much longer mix to get to the same amount of strength built into the doughs that feel wetter.

Wow Scott thank you so much. Currently at 62% hydration 2.5% salt no oil no sugar. Water goes in first then salt then flour idy yeast on top at about .33% idy. Mix for 10 mins put it on the counter let it rest for 10 mins cut, ball then into the box and cross stack in the walk-in for 30-45 mins. Final dough temp I shoot for is 70-78 max. Should I keep everything the same with say sir Galahad flour just add a 5 more mins of mixing?

[scott r]

George, to add 5 minutes to your mix time you are going to want to start with colder water/maybe ice so that your finished dough temp is the same.  Hobarts heat up the dough a lot.   Another great option is to use the same mix time but add in some stretch and folds every 20 minutes after mixing until the dough feels nice and strong.  Of course you will have to drop down the yeast a bit since typically you are going right into the fridge, and now you are spending more time at room temp before going in.  The perfect amount of yeast will have to be found with experimentation, but I would start by decreasing by 15%.

A finished dough temp of 70-78 is a very wide range, Regardless of what flour you use I think you should hone that in to within 2-3 degrees max.  This will improve the predictability of your fermentation.

Also, if you are comparing bromated all trumps to sir galahad, that is going to give you a different product regardless of mix time.   All trumps is very high gluten (plus bromate makes it act even higher) while sir galahad is an all purpose flour.  With similar hydrations I doubt you could ever get the strength and ability to trap gas (or puff) from galahad that you can achieve with bromated all trumps, but you might prefer the tenderness of the galahad.   You might have better luck comparing King Arthur sir lancelot flour to all trumps since they are in a similar protein range.

Another thing that would help you to get your galahad closer to all trumps performance is balling later (doing bulk rise then form balls closer to when the dough is being used). 

Good luck!

[Pizza Shark]

For the home pizza makers who are using a variety of flours and do a 48-72 hr CF and use a common KA mixer, I will tell you the #1 mistake many make is they over-knead the dough.  There is no need to knead the dough beyond the point that everything is fully incorporated, the sides of the mixing bowl are clean and enough time has passed kneading that you can stick your finger into it for perhaps 2 seconds and pull it away clean.  That's it.  The long CF will do all the rest for you.

[scott r]

Im with you Pizza Shark.  Just about every countertop mixer builds strength in the dough faster than the large commercial planetary, fork, spiral, and diving arm mixers because the agitator is so much more frequently in contact with all parts of the dough.  About the only commercial mixer that builds gluten as fast as a home mixer is a VCM.  My biggest problem with home mixers is developing dough too fast, and that is why my famag (a popular countertop spiral) almost always stays at its slowest speed.   

Of course, there are many here that make doughs in the 70 plus hydration range, and for that a mixer that quickly builds gluten is a very good thing.

[Pizza Shark]

Im with you Pizza Shark.  Just about every countertop mixer builds strength in the dough faster than the large commercial planetary, fork, spiral, and diving arm mixers because the agitator is so much more frequently in contact with all parts of the dough.  About the only commercial mixer that builds gluten as fast as a home mixer is a VCM.  My biggest problem with home mixers is developing dough too fast, and that is why my famag (a popular countertop spiral) almost always stays at its slowest speed.   

Of course, there are many here that make doughs in the 70 plus hydration range, and for that a mixer that quickly builds gluten is a very good thing.

People also forget (or don't know) that a higher hydration dough as is commonly used for NYS is much stickier after kneading at room temp than it will be after a 48-72 HR CF in the fridge when it get's pulled for use.  When I pull my dough from the mixer I literally have to dance it in my hands while forming a ball for the CF so it doesn't stick to them.  Once fully fermented and cold and pulled for use, that crazy stickiness is gone.