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Author Topic: How much Water?!?  (Read 1098 times)

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Offline Satyen

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Re: How much Water?!?
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2017, 04:04:58 PM »
The lower the hydration, the larger the margin of error in pretty much every respect.
Hi craig... can you expand on this? Iv only made ny with 58-62% hydration, but i was under the impression that lower hydration doughs would be easier to ferment, handle, stretch/roll, load, launch and bake.

Offline rparker

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Re: How much Water?!?
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2017, 11:12:33 PM »
I'm curous, too,  Craig.
Embrace the challenge. Do not accept difficult as impossible. Enjoy the journey. Become your own pizza memory.

(Please assume all appropriate genre identification disclaimers as rendered.)

Offline PelletPizzaJoe

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Re: How much Water?!?
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2017, 12:21:41 PM »
I was just watching 'Frank' , making pizza at Norma's...   at one point she asks him about the dough he'd told her about, and he gives the formulation...  75 lbs of flour, 4.5 gallons of water, 3 cups salt, 3 cups sugar, and a couple scoops of lard... 

   So...  Now I have to wonder, what's up with all these 60%+ hydration formulations?    Why if many old school pizza guys say what amounts to 50% hydration, are people around here frequently telling us to keep upping the hydration to 65% or sometimes higher?

   When I make a dough that's more then 60% hydration , often what I get is this loose ball of dough that's extremely hard to work with.    Lately for me, around 55% works well, but I've made some pretty good pizza with the 50% hydration as well...

 So what gives? why all these comments about increasing hydration?

Offline bregent

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Re: How much Water?!?
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2017, 01:06:20 PM »
>So...  Now I have to wonder, what's up with all these 60%+ hydration formulations? 

It all comes down to what characteristics you like, and your oven. Some folks like higher hydration for a more open crumb. Experiment until you find what suits your tastes. If managed properly, a 60+ dough should not be hard to work with. I've tried out doughs from 50% to 66% and have settled in on 59% +2% oil as the sweet spot for me.
Bob

Offline Fiorot

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Re: How much Water?!?
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2017, 08:36:59 PM »
Well me being the novice I hope you will excuse my comment.  It seems to me the case is hardly closed.  But I do have to say 58% with some VWG in some KABF  the Kitchen aid is crying. with a 3 ball batch.   
« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 08:39:42 PM by Fiorot »

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Offline vtsteve

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Re: How much Water?!?
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2017, 12:55:41 AM »
The lower the hydration, the larger the margin of error in pretty much every respect.

Hi craig... can you expand on this? Iv only made ny with 58-62% hydration, but i was under the impression that lower hydration doughs would be easier to ferment, handle, stretch/roll, load, launch and bake.

Exactly, there's a larger margin of error -- low hydration dough is less sensitive to variation/missteps.

My go-to NY pizza dough is 58% hydration; for Detroit I've been using 68%.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 10:15:44 AM by vtsteve »
In grams we trust.

Offline Satyen

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Re: How much Water?!?
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2017, 06:04:50 AM »
Oh. I thought larger margin if error meant more likely to make mistakes. English is obv not my first language. Thanks for clarifying!

Offline nick57

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Re: How much Water?!?
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2017, 10:29:04 PM »
  What I have learned from others on the forum, a hydration of 58% to 62% seems to be the sweet spot for most. Though experienced dough handlers  can go all the way up to 66% hydration. It seems a high hydration can produce a crisp crust and a moist crumb. It's all about handling the high hydration dough, It can be very difficult to open without stretching it too thin too quickly. I have opened dough balls that almost acted like a thick pancake batter. It did make for a nice crust, but something I did not want to do all the time. I do a 60% hydration at 550 degrees for 8 minutes. I get a crispy bottom and a nice soft and chewy crumb.I use KABF for my NY style. If you are wanting to do a real NY style I would go with something like Trumps high gluten flour, it gives a more dense and chewy crumb because of the high protein content which is in line with a true NY style pie.

Offline Essen1

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Re: How much Water?!?
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2017, 01:28:21 AM »
In addition to what has been advised and said here, finding out the water absorption rate of the flour used is extremely helpful.

However, not many millers give that info out freely so you might have to contact them and find out. Although Peter is a great(!) source for that info  ;D

Another thing I have come to realize is the way you mix your dough and the order the ingredients go in. A lot of people advise to add oil last, some like to add the oil straight to the water, a lot say shortly after there's no raw flour is visible, etc.

You have to find out yourself...one step at a time. Do not change more than one ingredient at a time or you'll lose control. Also, write everything you do down, in painstaking detail.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 01:29:53 AM by Essen1 »
Mike

Offline drewfus

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Re: How much Water?!?
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2017, 02:42:31 PM »
Another thing I have come to realize is the way you mix your dough and the order the ingredients go in. A lot of people advise to add oil last, some like to add the oil straight to the water, a lot say shortly after there's no raw flour is visible, etc.

Couldn't agree more - besides bumping hydration rate by 1-2% here or there, the one thing I've played around with most is the order of ingredients.  Lately I've been following Tom's instructions from his video with PMQ:

Oil after there's no more raw flour, everything else together at the start.  I also like his trick of a drizzle of oil at the end to help take the dough out cleanly.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 11:55:31 PM by drewfus »

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Offline Fiorot

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Re: How much Water?!?
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2017, 04:21:35 PM »
Well another visit to my friends at the Pizzeria today.   Bought 5 pounds of Trump Flour and 5 pounds of Grande East Coast Shredded Mozz 50% Whole 50% part skim.  I tasted it and it is quite different than the supermarket stuff.  Almost having a Muenster quality.  I understand the strong feelings here about squeezing the flour in your hand to decide if there is a moisture content in the flour  8).   But I decided to try it.  The picture shows the result of squeezing.    One thing for sure I have squeezed the Supermarket KABF and it would not clump at all.   I am going to assume there is a moisture level in order for this to happen. How much ?  I have no idea.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: How much Water?!?
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2017, 08:43:05 PM »
I understand the strong feelings here about squeezing the flour in your hand to decide if there is a moisture content in the flour  8).   But I decided to try it.  The picture shows the result of squeezing.    One thing for sure I have squeezed the Supermarket KABF and it would not clump at all.   I am going to assume there is a moisture level in order for this to happen. How much ?  I have no idea.
Fiorot,

From the following spec for the All Trumps flour you will see a moisture content of 14% ("Moisture basis"), which is typical for a U.S. flour, but it can decrease with time depending on how and where the flour is stored (but usually not below about 12%):

https://www.generalmillscf.com/services/productpdf.ashx?pid=50111000

Peter

Offline HarryHaller73

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Re: How much Water?!?
« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2017, 11:27:24 PM »
NY has massive humidity in the summer. 
1) Large bulk mixes there is not much difference between a 50% hydration and 55% for instance
2) When you're mixing a 50lb bag at once, you are working an industrial hobart, not your home mixer which is a wimp.  Huge difference
3) NY operators add a bit more water in dry weather, ie winter.

Offline HarryHaller73

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Re: How much Water?!?
« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2017, 11:33:47 PM »
Well another visit to my friends at the Pizzeria today.   Bought 5 pounds of Trump Flour and 5 pounds of Grande East Coast Shredded Mozz 50% Whole 50% part skim.  I tasted it and it is quite different than the supermarket stuff.  Almost having a Muenster quality.  I understand the strong feelings here about squeezing the flour in your hand to decide if there is a moisture content in the flour  8).   But I decided to try it.  The picture shows the result of squeezing.    One thing for sure I have squeezed the Supermarket KABF and it would not clump at all.   I am going to assume there is a moisture level in order for this to happen. How much ?  I have no idea.

Yes that's how you know how much variance to hydration, you test the flour based on humidity levels.  If that flour doesn't clump you would be adding more water.  the 3 gallon rule is a basic start point.  Eventually it becomes more art than science.

Offline jkb

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Re: How much Water?!?
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2017, 12:06:28 AM »
Eventually it becomes more art than science.

Not if you have a Karl Fischer titrator

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Offline HarryHaller73

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Re: How much Water?!?
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2017, 12:15:53 AM »
Not if you have a Karl Fischer titrator

I bet Karl Fischer couldn't even scramble eggs.  Nerds make the worst cooks.  Einstein subsisted on bottles of gefilte fish.

Offline invertedisdead

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Re: How much Water?!?
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2017, 12:05:16 PM »
I bet Karl Fischer couldn't even scramble eggs.  Nerds make the worst cooks.  Einstein subsisted on bottles of gefilte fish.

HAHA

Offline jkb

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Re: How much Water?!?
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2017, 12:38:32 PM »
I bet Karl Fischer couldn't even scramble eggs.  Nerds make the worst cooks.  Einstein subsisted on bottles of gefilte fish.

I bet 99% of the population can't scramble eggs.

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