Climatisim coming for NYC pizzarias

[PapaJawnz]

https://nypost.com/2024/03/10/us-news/nyc-burns-pizzerias-with-new-rule-cutting-smoky-pollutants-by-75/

New York City has quietly approved a controversial green plan to require pizzerias and matzah bakeries using decades-old wood- and coal-fired stoves to cut their smoky pollutants by 75%.

Mayor Eric Adams' Department of Environmental Protection said the fresh edict takes effect April 27, with some city businesses having already coughed up more than $600,000 for new smoke-eating systems in anticipation of the expected mandate.

"You are going after pizza? Glorious New York pizza?" groused Mike Dabin in a recent online comment to the city DEP. "Can't you go after Diesel Trucks instead of pizza ovens?"

[Timpanogos Slim]

The regulation that passed in 2016 and was originally supposed to go into effect in 2020? To use the scrubbers that are required for these ovens in most italian cities? They just finally finalized the rules.

Not every environmental regulation is about climate. This one is about the very local effects of particulate emissions, aggravating respiratory issues for many and pushing some into an early grave.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=80501.0

[PapaJawnz]

Interesting.  Is there any data to back up the health claims?

[Timpanogos Slim]

That breathing soot and ash are bad for you? Yep. the key word you'll want to search with is "pm2.5" which refers to particulate emissions smaller than 2.5 microns.

This is not at all about co2. it's about pumping crud into the air that your neighbors end up breathing. The same scrubbers are required in most cities in Italy for example. It's just a box that the exhaust passes through and gets misted with water. After it's installed someone does have to go up and clean it from time to time.

In the previous thread i linked to the page where the city details their ability to measure emissions on a block by block basis and identify sources.

And my general position was that the city should offer a subsidy or tax credit for historic ovens. Even if it's just a loan with extremely favorable terms.

[PapaJawnz]

I'm sure you can understand my skepticism, we both live in wildfire USA.  We breath in a lot of smoke, soot, ash, dust, etc.

I wonder how much life we've lost?

[Heikjo]

Local pollution in cities is responsible for large numbers of deaths and illnesses around the world. Pizzerias may be small in numbers compared to combustion engines, but it's certainly not healthy stuff emitted from the chimneys. Modern wood stoves emit a lot less pollutants than older models.

The large pizza ovens are a different beast than home ovens, so scrubbers seems like a good idea if they work well enough.

Passive smoking is a health hazard that's gotten more focus in recent years.

In general, our lungs do not want smoke and polluted air. The lungs are an excellent way to distribute hazardous particles in the body. The more you can avoid it the better, be it smoke from a pizza oven, car, wildfire or tobacco.

[P0234]

Pm2.5 is a size. What makes this suspect in my mind is pm2.5 from food being cooked is less harmful than something from a Chemours factory. Ignoring that fact lessens the validity of the whole thing.

[Timpanogos Slim]

Pm2.5 is a size. What makes this suspect in my mind is pm2.5 from food being cooked is less harmful than something from a Chemours factory. Ignoring that fact lessens the validity of the whole thing.

If they're burning coal in the factory it's largely the same thing.

Where i live, the major producer used to be the WWII era steel mill - so that was coal soot + rust, slag, etc. Back in the day if you parked a car in the fallout zone you had to be careful about cleaning your windscreen because it would get covered in a crystalline grit of stuff that was certainly bigger than 2.5 microns.

I used to work with an old guy who used to work for a company that provided stock traders with point-to-point microwave connections to the trading network before that was easy to do over the internet. Said they had a customer who was on the other side of the steel mill plume and they had to turn the gain all the way up on his equipment. Whole lot of iron oxide in the air.

At any rate, the NYC regulations aren't just about coal and wood fired ovens but also about flame grilling, etc. They do know precisely who is emitting what.

They refer to it as an issue with pm2.5 because solid particles in that size range - be they from sand, drywall, shaping quartz countertops, burning stuff, etc - do specific bad things to your lungs and mucous membranes *because *of *their *size. I know a countertops contractor who had a hell of a time keeping his crew in N95 masks during the first year of the pandemic.

To be perfectly clear, they are not going to reduce co2 or co emissions from restaurants with this regulation. It's about the solids.

I'm sure you can understand my skepticism, we both live in wildfire USA.  We breath in a lot of smoke, soot, ash, dust, etc.

I wonder how much life we've lost?

That has in fact been studied, and land management is also a serious concern.

https://ehjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12940-020-0559-2

[dfuller]

I fail to see the problem here. PM2.5  is a problem regardless of source.

[PapaJawnz]

I fail to see the problem here. PM2.5  is a problem regardless of source.

It's more of a problem if you can see and smell it I bet.  There are a lot of sensitive people now a days.

[Pete-zza]

I received an email today from PMQ on the subject of this thread, at:

https://www.pmq.com/new-york-pizzerias-face-costly-dilemma-over-wood-and-coal-burning-ovens-under-new-rule/?spMailingID=110089&puid=2808244&E=2808244&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=110089 (click CONTINUE TO SITE)

Peter

[Pizza_Not_War]

Rather than the incendiary title of this thread it would be more as appropriate to call it pollution control.

[PapaJawnz]

Rather than the incendiary title of this thread it would be more as appropriate to call it pollution control.

While I don't agree with this, I will say if it is more accurate to say "NYC government coming for pizzaria's" I am in favor of that.

[Timpanogos Slim]

It's more of a problem if you can see and smell it I bet.  There are a lot of sensitive people now a days.

It's a complex issue because there are psychosomatic effects for sure, but in the previous news story there was a remark from one of the pizzerias that has already installed the scrubber that there used to be a guy who came in all the time to whinge and moan about how the smoke goes right into his window, and he hasn't seen that guy in weeks.

Diesel smoke is one example -- those particles are mostly on the larger side and fall relatively quickly, but when someone is rolling coal it's a pretty obvious offense.

Conversely, there are a lot of nitrogen oxides in it, and those also have respiratory impact. I actually like the smell of uncatalyzed, DEF-free diesel exhaust. So waxy. Not really good for me I'm sure.

I wish my land cruiser were diesel and it may yet get converted some day. I have an '84 jetta coupe diesel that i rebuilt 10 years ago and i ought to get it back on the road this summer. I also have a 300kmi TDI engine to rebuild and swap into the old jetta for a major power upgrade.

This is a subject i follow because asthma runs in my family and my own health is impacted by air quality, though usually when it's in conjunction with some other  issue like bad pollen or already being sick.

When i was a kid, mom could tell whether the furnaces were going at the steel mill, and the mill was about 6.5 miles away with a large hill between us and it, we couldn't see the plume easily. They once shut it down for 3-4 months and she had a lot more pep that went away when they fired it back up. And then of course when they shut it down for good things were better.

[Grease Wheel]

...pollution control

A little wordy.

[caymus]

A waste of good pizza

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/scott-lobaido-is-arrested-after-throwing-pizza-over-the-gates-of-new-york-city-hall/vi-BB1keK5c?ocid=msedgntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=26a88dbb88014c12a8d18fb1edf9ff38&ei=72

[Timpanogos Slim]

A waste of good pizza

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/scott-lobaido-is-arrested-after-throwing-pizza-over-the-gates-of-new-york-city-hall/vi-BB1keK5c?ocid=msedgntp&pc=HCTS&cvid=26a88dbb88014c12a8d18fb1edf9ff38&ei=72

Didn't Portnoy already pull some similar stunt?

I say again: The city should help out the little guy on this one. Give 'em an interest-free loan with a 5-year term maybe. Or peg the interest to precisely inflation perhaps. 'course, i don't live in NYC.

I know politics are forbidden here but i think most people can agree that one of the few reasons for government to exist is to pool the resources of the many for the good of the many.

Cleaner air is good for tourism. Ask Paris.