I need help getting better (any) flavor in my thin crust

[Cartersauce11]

This is the last one I've made. I've tried variations to certain elements which I will describe below - all without much success, but plenty of frustration.

KAAP Flour (unbleached)   100%
Water   51%
ADY   (Fleischmann's) 0.75%
Olive Oil   8%
Salt    1.3%
Sugar   1.3%

- Activate the ADY in a shot glass of warm water and a small portion of the 1.3% sugar. Wait until it starts to bubble/foam.
- Mix the flour, salt, and sugar
- Mix in cold water and the activated yeast in the warm water until flour is pretty much fully hydrated.
- I mix by hand since I do not have a mixer
- Let sit in bowl, covered, for ~20 min
- Add oil and knead by hand until oil is incorporated
- Portion and place into oiled deli container, straight into fridge.
- Take out of fridge a couple hours before baking, dust peel with cornmeal, bake on a steel preheated at 550, oven temp turned down to 475 before putting the pizza in.
- The first dough ball fermented in the fridge for 3 days.
- I made the second one after 8 days.

Neither tasted better or worse than the other. The 8 day ferment had a slghtly different texture, which has been consistent with my other longer ferments. My dough texture has been great, but that flavor, that aroma, of a cooked pie isn't there at all.


Variations I've tried in the past:
- More/less oil. All corn oil. Or half corn, half olive.
- Salt up to 3%. Just made the dough taste salty. And again, there was no aroma of a cooked pizza crust like that of almost like a french loaf of bread...
- Anywhere from one day CF to 8 day CF.
- Higher/lower cook temps


I used up my whole bag of KAAP and picked up Gold Medal AP. Planning on picking up some SAF instant yeast. I'm hoping I have better luck with these ingredients, but most I've read on here suggests the flavor is in the fermentation.


Does bread flour produce a more "bready" flavor, or is it strictly for a beter stretch/larger crumb (which don't seem relevant to Chicago thins). Is there anything glaringly wrong about my process?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[pythonic]

This is the last one I've made. I've tried variations to certain elements which I will describe below - all without much success, but plenty of frustration.

KAAP Flour (unbleached)   100%
Water   51%
ADY   (Fleischmann's) 0.75%
Olive Oil   8%
Salt    1.3%
Sugar   1.3%

- Activate the ADY in a shot glass of warm water and a small portion of the 1.3% sugar. Wait until it starts to bubble/foam.
- Mix the flour, salt, and sugar
- Mix in cold water and the activated yeast in the warm water until flour is pretty much fully hydrated.
- I mix by hand since I do not have a mixer
- Let sit in bowl, covered, for ~20 min
- Add oil and knead by hand until oil is incorporated
- Portion and place into oiled deli container, straight into fridge.
- Take out of fridge a couple hours before baking, dust peel with cornmeal, bake on a steel preheated at 550, oven temp turned down to 475 before putting the pizza in.
- The first dough ball fermented in the fridge for 3 days.
- I made the second one after 8 days.

Neither tasted better or worse than the other. The 8 day ferment had a slghtly different texture, which has been consistent with my other longer ferments. My dough texture has been great, but that flavor, that aroma, of a cooked pie isn't there at all.


Variations I've tried in the past:
- More/less oil. All corn oil. Or half corn, half olive.
- Salt up to 3%. Just made the dough taste salty. And again, there was no aroma of a cooked pizza crust like that of almost like a french loaf of bread...
- Anywhere from one day CF to 8 day CF.
- Higher/lower cook temps


I used up my whole bag of KAAP and picked up Gold Medal AP. Planning on picking up some SAF instant yeast. I'm hoping I have better luck with these ingredients, but most I've read on here suggests the flavor is in the fermentation.


Does bread flour produce a more "bready" flavor, or is it strictly for a beter stretch/larger crumb (which don't seem relevant to Chicago thins). Is there anything glaringly wrong about my process?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Have you already tried Garveys dough recipe?  Bread flour will produce more or a breast texture.  Not Chicago thin crust texture.

[Mad_Ernie]

Cartersauce11,

Your percentages are pretty close to what Garvey has recommended for his Pizza Factory dough recipe; not exact, but in the ballpark.
What olive oil are you using? EVOO? Most of these types of crust use vegetable/corn/canola oil.
When you let the dough sit in the bowl to rise at room temperature before adding the oil, try letting it sit longer: 1 to 1.5 hours.
I also agree that using all-purpose rather than bread flour might be a better choice.
The other thing I would try is go ahead and up the ADY yeast to a full 1%.

You might want to try making or any of these changes separately rather than all at once, but feel free to take it however you want.

Good luck!

-ME

[PapaJawnz]

I tried the home run inn clone recipe on the forum.  It has a TON of flavor, very yeasty.  I dont know if that is any interest to your taste, but it was noticeable.  I only bake with sourdough anymore, so my dough always has noticeable flavor, but you do get used to it after a while.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6112.0

[Cartersauce11]

Thanks all, for the responses.

pythonic - I have not tried his exact dough, but his %s and no-knead method look very similar to mine. I will have to try to match his exact recipe to see if I get different results. Do you notice any differences between his and my recipe that you think could explain the lack of flavor in my crust?


Mad_Ernie - lately I have been using Pompeian "Mild Taste" Olive Oil. I have used California Farms EVOO in the past. I have also tried all corn oil, a mix between olive/corn, a mix of EVOO/corn, and have even tried mixing in a small amount of Kerrygold butter. I didn't pursue a higher butter % because i don't really see it in most recipes here.

I have also tried letting it rest at RT before CF, but I can't say I've noticed a difference. The yeast seems plenty active and surely a 3-8 day CF would compensate for a less than 1.5 hr RT rest or bumping the yeast up .25%? Here is a picture of my dough after 2 days in the fridge.

[RGE79]

Per Chau's Home Run Inn formulation, drop hydration to 38% and sub 20% butter for the olive oil. Skip the LDMP if you don't already have it.

[Cartersauce11]

RGE79 -

I am not looking to make a HRI style, but your mention of LDMP led me to research this ingredient. I have some on the way and I'm excited to try.

[PapaJawnz]

My suggestion at looking at the home run inn pizza was because it is a thin crust pizza that I've made before which has a lot of flavor in the crust.  Perhaps there is some knowledge to gain from the recipe.  It is "yeasty".  Diastatic malt powder will offer up some flavor too but perhaps less noticeable than the effects in maillard reaction.

There is also a poolish, which is used commonly to impart flavor into the crust.  This may be more of a challenge with a lower hydration dough.

If your crust isn't getting a lot of browning, it may be as simple as that.  The flavor of my crusts will change simply based on the depth of color on the bottom.  If you are baking in a pan and have a stone or steel, you could remove the pizza from the pan once it sets (or sometime thereafter) and transfer it to the preheated stone or steel to get better bottom browning.

[Cartersauce11]

Thanks, PapaJawnz.

The biggest thing that stood out for me reading that recipe is the same day oven rise. I find it curious this produces a lot of crust flavor, since "longer CF" seems to be THE answer to improving crust flavor.

Some people seem to swear by diastatic malt. It's always in the ingredient list in grocery store breads, which do have that aroma and flavor I am missing. It might not make a difference, but I'm going to give it a shot.

My crusts get plenty of color, ranging from a golden to darker brown. And I bake on a steel. Unfortunately I don't have any pictures of the undercarriages, but here's a top view. And this was a "lighter" cook. I often go more well done.

[vcb]

Consider increasing your salt to between 1.5 and 2 %

[Cartersauce11]

vcb,

I actually had made a dough with 2% salt the other day and cooked it yesterday. I've gone beyond 2% in the past and it just tastes saltier. I am looking for more aroma, and I don't think salt is the culprit though I appreciate the post.


My dough smells sour/acidic. I understand a little sour smell is to be expected, but shouldn't it smell more like beer? It's not goop when I roll it out, but it is wet and airy. Are these signs my dough is fermenting too long/quickly? Will a dough lose its flavor/aroma if left for too long?

[vcb]

vcb,

I actually had made a dough with 2% salt the other day and cooked it yesterday. I've gone beyond 2% in the past and it just tastes saltier. I am looking for more aroma, and I don't think salt is the culprit though I appreciate the post.


My dough smells sour/acidic. I understand a little sour smell is to be expected, but shouldn't it smell more like beer? It's not goop when I roll it out, but it is wet and airy. Are these signs my dough is fermenting too long/quickly? Will a dough lose its flavor/aroma if left for too long?

Consider a cold ferment 3 days or shorter - you're probably entering sourdough territory with those long ferments, and maybe use a different oil, or make it a combination of oils. I typically use corn oil or soybean oil, and if I'm combining one of those with olive oil, I use a higher smoke point olive oil (regular or light - don't use extra virgin).

You're probably looking for those "buttery" notes that come from the development of diacetyl, which is usually happening on day 2 or 3.

[Cartersauce11]

Thanks vcb

I agree with your assessment that I'm probably overfermenting. I've been reading more about fermentation and finding that "sweet spot". I think I've been way too loose with my temps/times/yeast %s. I just figured I can chuck the dough in the fridge and the longer the better.

I came across Craig's fermentation table and tried a 4 hour 78F ferment just for the hell of it using a LOT less yeast than I typically use. I didn't expect much in 4 hours but I watched that dough throughout those hours. Looking at how it rises and how the bubbles grow. Feeling the dough. Smelling it. I baked a couple with just some sauce and a dusting of parm/pec. Not anywhere near the aroma/flavor I am seeking, but I think it was a step in the right direction.

I just ordered a fridge thermometer so I can do more accurate, longer cold ferments.

[nanometric]

Extensive discussion:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg305361#msg305361

[RGE79]

RGE79 -

I am not looking to make a HRI style

I didn't realize that butter only adds flavor to HRI style. Guess I learned something today. 

[pythonic]

I didn't realize that butter only adds flavor to HRI style. Guess I learned something today. 

Butter definitely changes flavor and texture to any dough.

[Cartersauce11]

Wanted to try a long RT ferment to see if I'd get different results. I made enough dough for 3 skins, topping with just sauce.

Dropped ADY down to .021% at ~74 F. According to Craig's chart, the dough should be ready at about 22 hours. 

Dough #1
Baked after about 20 hours. The raw dough didn't have much of an aroma to it, excerpt for when I first opened the container when it had a decent aroma but only lasted a second. Figured this one would be slightly under fermented but I wanted to get a baseline. It tasted bland and had no aroma once baked.

Dough #2
Baked after 23 hours. I took the presence of the large, thin bubble on top as a sign it's in its sweet spot. This also did not have a strong aroma when raw. Baked it up and the taste/aroma was similar to the first one, though this one's outer rim crust bubbled up a bit which I like.

Dough #3
I put #3 back in the fridge at ~38 F overnight, where it still is. Still deciding whether to try it tonight or tomorrow.


Overall, I'm disappointed that a near 24 hour warm RT ferment did not give me any better or worse results than what I've tried in the past (mostly 1-7 day CF).

I continue to be stumped.

[PizzaGarage]

I think the formulation and process is good and really out of a straight dough you're not going to get a whole lot better, move to preferment if you are looking for more.  A couple of things on your straight dough.  I prefer 1.5% kosher salt, not table salt. 48-72 hours for CF is good, 72 preferable. I shoot for 36 degrees fridge temps.

Ideas:
Reduce sugar to 1%
Keep 3 day CF
I use IDF (SAF) at .375
Use Kosher Salt - no table salt - has iodine and off flavors to me
Get temp of dough at 78 degrees, ball and in the fridge quickly. if you are hand mixing work quickly to keep the temps in line
Use pure OO as opposed to EVOO.  There is more flavor in OO, my favorite is Minerva which is a Greek OO
    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001KZ1XVE/?tag=pmak-20
Bake at 475 and get a screen in case you need switch near the end of the bake, allows more cook time w/o crust burning
I don't think butter provides much flavor on a thin, in a pan it sure does but if you want to try butter just keep in mind it's approx 18-20% water so add that to the calculations.  Most butters are not go great, here are some really good butters that have a ton of flavor.
  Alcam
  Grassland
  Amish rolled butter
  If you cant find these use at least a Europen cultured butter which contain higher butter fat
To get a crispier crust, do a 48 CF and 24 CF already sheeted, the crust will dry up a bit and add more crisp.  You can also laminate using a 72CF.

Flour wise, KAAP is fine, for thins my goto is Cerasota. All purpose is fine, bread flow will get a bit more chew.

my 2 cents

[PapaJawnz]

I'm curious if there is a pizzaria that has the flavor in the crust you are looking for?  Also, how many taste testers do you have?  Could you try an emergency dough and compare it to a longer fermented dough?  I've always thought that there was a lot of flavor in a cold ferment dough of 3-4 days when compared to a 4-6 hour emergency dough.  It is very noticeable to me.  I hope you get it dialed in!

[Cartersauce11]

Thanks PizzaGarage. I will take your suggestions into consideration for my next rounds. Your pies always look delicious. I never use anything but Diamond kosher salt and currently use regular olive oil and not EVOO. Though, I think I like it more heavy with corn oil. I plan to try out more CFs now that I've discovered Craig's chart and now have a thermometer.

I don't know too much about preferments, I will have to do more research. I've seen some recipes that call for a biga or poolish, but I was under the impression a long, proper ferment achieves similar results. Again, I will have to do more research.

I typically make them on the thinner side, so I preheat my steel at 500/550 and then turn the oven down to 475 for the bake. There's this place by me down FL that does a style that I'm trying to replicate. Very much what I'd consider a generic Chicago thin crust, very thin and crispy. We have been picking them up half baked and they give instructions to finish at 400 for 10-15 min. Great aroma and more flavor than my crust. When I make DD pizzas, I get a similar aroma so is it possible a lower temp bake can alter the aroma/flavor? I will have to try.