I need help getting better (any) flavor in my thin crust

[Cartersauce11]

PapaJawnz,

Thanks I know I'll get there eventually! I have to learn to enjoy the process.

I've moved out of Illinois 3 years ago, but there's this place where I'm at now that does a generic Chicago thin. Very thin and crispy. It's similar to Barraco's in the Tinley Park area, except I think this one down by me has a bit more flavor.

Just one other taste tester. The other day I made a 4 hour at 78 F RT ferment dough. All similar results.

[PizzaGarage]

Some thoughts...

Maybe you like the par-bake - I do for sure on cracker crusts.  If your picking up 1/2 baked pies they are most likely a par-bake crust, with fresh toppings that you then take home and bake later.  Some of the sauce spices could be incorporating in the top layer of the crust that you are tasting and you can replicate that.  Par-bake at 475 just until the point you see slight browning, pull the crust and let cool, sauce and top with what you like and put in the fridge for 30 minutes, remove, let warm for 15-20 then bake it at 400 for 10-15, the lower bake temps help firm up the crust after sitting with sauce and assist in removing any gum lines and add crisp.  Take N bake places follow the same process and refrigerate until pickup.  Not saying the place you get these from is a Take N Bake but your doing the same thing.  Your sauce should not be too watery. 

Other ideas are to try SAF IDY at .375 - every dough I make smells great, no acidity and temp is important you want 76-78 and into the fridge.  Over-proofed dough smells acidic.  Some places add in ice and run cooler dough, but this is a home environment and your not dealing with a hot pizza shop.

Lower bake temps don't change flavor but do assist in getting the crust longer bake time, more crisp, reduces oil off and also helps with staying under or slightly above the smoke point in the oil depending on what you use.  You can make great pizza at 400-475.

Might help to know the name of the shop you like so much and then we can see pics....



You can also mess around with adding Garlic Powder, Onion Powder and course ground black pepper each at 0.015%, try one or all.

[Cartersauce11]

https://wrigleyspizza.com/

I saw into their kitchen and they use a conveyor oven.

We used to eat in the restaurant when we lived closer. Now we just pick up a half baked after work to bring home. They taste the same so I don't think it's the parbake. And the cheese is a bit melted so i think it truly is a half bake, not a par.  Even half baked it has the crust aroma.

For a pizza so thin, it surprised me that the instructions on the half bake are 400 F for 10-15 min. They turn out great like that. I do want to try a lower temp.

I have my 3rd dough ball in the fridge still which would total 24 hours at RT and 3 days in the fridge.

[Cartersauce11]

Here's one I made just before making this initial post. This one used dough that was rolled out and cured overnight in the fridge. Big fan of curing. Great for thin and crispy. Gets very close to what I'm looking for, but it needs that missing flavor and aroma from the crust.

[Cartersauce11]

Ok finally baked dough #3 from my last batch. 24 hours at 74 F, plus 3 days CF at about 38F.

This time I made a full pie out of it with the last bit of my cheese, sausage, sauce. Threw some jalapeno and onions in there too. I used fine corn meal in place of the medium grain. Turned out better than expected - one of, if not my best. Slightly different texture than what I had been going for in the past, but it was a pleasant difference.

The dough was certainly different to work with. I plopped it out of it's container, onto a floured surface and pressed it flat. It barely held it's round shape when flattened. When rolling out, the dough didn't have much elasticity left in it and it was more difficult than usual to keep it round.

I baked it at 425 on my steel for maybe 20 min. The bottom wasn't as crispy as my past pies, but was still crispy enough to hold the weight of the toppings without bending/breaking. Even down to the last pieces. The bottom baked to a nice golden brown.

The inside was almost biscuit-like. The crumb looked like all the air pockets collapsed, which I supposed should attribute to the increased length of fermentation. There was a small gumline, but that is something I don't mind and actually kind of like.

Overall, the crust had a more buttery, corn flavor with a more biscuity texture. I took 4 days to ferment that dough. Wonder if I can get it down to a day. The next bake, I might go 450 to give it a little more crisp.

[engt]

Have you used 1 of these:https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001CDQ9GI/?tag=pmak-20

[PapaJawnz]

Carter, you are certainly making some beautiful pizzas and I hope the flavor is improving for you.  The cheese melt looks spot on to my eyes, and keeping it simple with sausage, chiles and onions is right up my alley!

Have you seen Brian Lagerstorm's recent video regarding chicago tavern style?  Perhaps his recipe may be of interest to you.

BTW, I will be joining the thin crust gang soon, I just need to find a solid pan to make a 10-12" pizza.  All I have at the moment is a 16" cutter and it's too big for my toaster oven 

[Cartersauce11]

I have seen Brian's video. IIRC, he uses all butter, a short fermentation, and he cures his dough. The style he made is similar in style to what I make. His looked good, haven't tried his dough to see about the flavor.

I usually use grande WMM for my cheese along with parm/pec. I ran out and for this last pie I had used boars head WMM on one side and Sargento slices on the other side. I find I have to use less parm/pec with the grande since it has more flavor.

[pythonic]

Here's one I made just before making this initial post. This one used dough that was rolled out and cured overnight in the fridge. Big fan of curing. Great for thin and crispy. Gets very close to what I'm looking for, but it needs that missing flavor and aroma from the crust.

Looks like a home run to me.  What was your dough formulation and process?  I want to get back into making these pies ASAP.

[pythonic]

Have you tried fresh yeast yet for flavor difference?  I also think the corn oil could be masking the flavor of the crust or perhaps they are using a better corn oil.  Did you ask your shop?  Just go deliver there for a week and find it all out lol.

[Cartersauce11]

Pythonic,

I wanted to see if I could replicate my results of my "dough #3" from reply 16/24. I made another batch for this past weekend when I had family in town (who also grew up eating south side thin crust). It was a hit. I made enough dough for 3 pizzas again just because the yeast % was so low that it would have been that much harder to scale down to one pie. But I'm glad I made enough for 3 because there was certainly demand for them and we collectively ate all 3 16ish pizzas within two days.

I do like the lower bake temp, though I might adjust either the temp or the height of my steel to get more even cooking. I like the lower temp cook for the crust but it needs a long time to get crispy. I think the cheese is better when it's fast and hot.

I've been saying for a while now that if I lived closer to the pizza shop, I'd consider working part time. Kinda have a pipe dream of opening my own one day.

Overall, I was able to replicate my results and it produced a very flavorful crust. Admittedly, it was different than what I was going for/expected, but it's good and it got great reviews. Not sure if I have a need to move to fresh yeast just yet but I'm definitely curious. Not sure what I else I'd tweak for the next cook but I'll try to update this thread if I do. 

[pythonic]

Pythonic,

I wanted to see if I could replicate my results of my "dough #3" from reply 16/24. I made another batch for this past weekend when I had family in town (who also grew up eating south side thin crust). It was a hit. I made enough dough for 3 pizzas again just because the yeast % was so low that it would have been that much harder to scale down to one pie. But I'm glad I made enough for 3 because there was certainly demand for them and we collectively ate all 3 16ish pizzas within two days.

I do like the lower bake temp, though I might adjust either the temp or the height of my steel to get more even cooking. I like the lower temp cook for the crust but it needs a long time to get crispy. I think the cheese is better when it's fast and hot.

I've been saying for a while now that if I lived closer to the pizza shop, I'd consider working part time. Kinda have a pipe dream of opening my own one day.

Overall, I was able to replicate my results and it produced a very flavorful crust. Admittedly, it was different than what I was going for/expected, but it's good and it got great reviews. Not sure if I have a need to move to fresh yeast just yet but I'm definitely curious. Not sure what I else I'd tweak for the next cook but I'll try to update this thread if I do.

Glad your family loved the pies. The crust looks so much different on the bottom from your #2 batch vs #3 batch.  What was the difference?

[Cartersauce11]

The first ones were fermented at RT for 24 hours, which was based on Craig's table. These were also cooked hot and fast on a steel preheated at 550 F.

The ones that turned out great were fermented at RT for ~24 hours and then CF for 3 days. These were baked at 425.

And yeah, the crusts look very different from each other. White/lighter with some  dark browning in some areas vs a more even golden brown. The latter was so much better. I realize I changed two variables (fermentation time and cook temp) to achieve these results, but I think both helped.

[pythonic]

The first ones were fermented at RT for 24 hours, which was based on Craig's table. These were also cooked hot and fast on a steel preheated at 550 F.

The ones that turned out great were fermented at RT for ~24 hours and then CF for 3 days. These were baked at 425.

And yeah, the crusts look very different from each other. White/lighter with some  dark browning in some areas vs a more even golden brown. The latter was so much better. I realize I changed two variables (fermentation time and cook temp) to achieve these results, but I think both helped.

For the cheese do you use WM or part skim?

[Cartersauce11]

WM. I've never tried part skim.

Usually grande. A couple of these recent ones were boars head/Sargento because I ran out of grande.

[PieGuy007]

I'll throw in my .02 worth. I've been making consistent Chicago thin crust pizzas using a very simple recipe and a 3-day cold ferment. My family and extended family love it and my wife's co-workers want me to sell it. Lol! Hydration, or lack there of, is important; aim for 50%.

Ingredients:
Cerasota APF (many of the best use it)
Table salt
Sugar
Instant yeast
Water
Canola oil (I've read many pizzerias use it and after using OO and VO this is clearly the best oil flavor wise. Trust me.)1

I use a stand mixer and blend all dry ingredients first. Then combine pre-heated water (microwaved for 1 min. ) and oil in a separate container. Slowly add the liquid to the dry ingredients in the stand mixer. Wait for each liquid addition to incorporate into the dry mix before adding more. I add the liquid incrementally because humidity levels vary. You're aiming for a shaggy dough texture that's sort of "pop corn' like. The dough will be almost falling apart, but you should be able to press it all together into sort of a ball. Grab a gallon plastic bag and throw it in. Continue to press your dough ball together. Close the bag, but leave an open portion so the yeast can "breath". Cold ferment for at least 2 days, preferably 3.

Allow the dough to come to room temp before rolling out. I roll my crusts to about 1/8 inch and place on a cardboard round before placing in a frig for at least 30 min. to make it easier to handle. This is a no kneed dough, so if it springs back when rolling give it a rest for 15 min. Don't rush it, it'll be great! Make sure to dock your dough before saucing to avoid bubbles.

Hope this helps and I'll be glad to share measurables if necessary.

[Chicago Bob]

WM. I've never tried part skim.

Usually grande. A couple of these recent ones were boars head/Sargento because I ran out of grande.

     Chicago thin crust pizzas crust is inherently bland... it is just the vehicle to deliver the great flavors of topings, sausage only is preferred.
Use all purpose flour and Mix your CORN oil right into the yeast warm water solution, saves you a step, let it sit out on the counter for 4 or five hours and you can make a damn good pizza.   

[pythonic]

     Chicago thin crust pizzas crust is inherently bland... it is just the vehicle to deliver the great flavors of topings, sausage only is preferred.
Use all purpose flour and Mix your CORN oil right into the yeast warm water solution, saves you a step, let it sit out on the counter for 4 or five hours and you can make a damn good pizza.   

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