What is causing my dough to do this?

Richardk · July 11, 2024, 12:53:25 AM

Hi All,

Looking for some help to see what is happening with my Neapolitan dough.

I recently started using Caputo Blue Pizzeria (12.5%), in both 65 & 70% Hydration, with good results and no issues, both Direct and Poolish.

Today I started making this direct dough batch for Saturday morning: RT = 2hr / Bulk CT = 31 hr / Ball CT= 12hr (45hr Total). My kitchen temp is 18C -winter in Australia.

This is the order I mixed, and the formula was from Pizza App.

Water (Tap)= 2666 g
Yeast (IDY) = 7.35g
Flour = 3808 g
Salt = 114g

After hand kneading for about 20mins, the dough still wasn't smooth, (though sticky as expected), which is fine, but after it rested for about 15mins, I still couldn't get it as smooth as in the past, and it just didn't feel as strong as the past ones. So I did another 10 mins of kneading, thinking that it still needed it, but got the same result.

After both kneads and rest, I bulk balled it up, and I did the poke test, and the dough sprang straight back, but the temperature reading with my probe only read 18.9C. I have always had the dough range between 22-24C, and dough spring back straight away too.

My questions/issues are (see images):

Why is the dough not smooth after kneading, resting and bulk balling - no issues in the past. What could be causing this/did I miss something?
Window pane test non existent - the dough just pulled apart, there was no stretch/elasticity. (I have never done this test before, but seen it on Youtube).

Thanks.

foreplease · July 11, 2024, 05:41:09 AM

You might try mixing 2 minutes or less - just until it comes together and you don't see any unincorporated flour. Cover the bowl with a plate or plastic. Use your 2 hrs of room temp ferment to do a series of stretch and folds in the bowl (don't remove from bowl). Get your fingertips damp, pick up one side of the dough, pull up to stretch and fold it over onto itself. Rotate the bowl and repeat 6-8 times. Cover bowl again. Do this about 4 times in your 2 hr room temp ferment. You should see increased dough strength and a smoother exterior with each repetition.

Put it in cold ferment after 2 hrs. Leave lid/plate/plastic a little loose. I try to leave about 15-20% of bowl size open for air exchange. Leave it like this for 2 hours to reduce/prevent condensation in your bowl. Then cover and keep it cold until you reach your 31 hour mark.

Scale and ball, lightly oil and return it to your fridge in a tray or individual bowls you can cover. Leave it in there for 9 hours, then pull all dough balls to room temp for your final 3 hours, then make up your pizzas.

I think doing less mixing and kneading and following the above instead will give you smooth well fermented dough balls that will be easy to work with. Try to forget the term 'window pane' until you want to make bread. I hope this helps and that you will be able to post some photos (again) of your next try. Good luck.

Richardk · July 11, 2024, 06:34:44 AM

Hi @foreplease,

Thanks for the reply.

I make Focaccia at 80% hydration using stretch and folds, autolyse, and only use a 10% protein all purpose flour, and have never had this problem, which has really got me scratching my head this time.

Do you know what would have caused this to happen this time, and not every other time?

It's too late for me to do those stretch and folds, as it has already been in the fridge for 8 hours now.

I will try the rest of the procedure when it's time to ball them.

Thanks.

foreplease · July 11, 2024, 09:50:54 AM

No, I do not know. I was trying to dial back your effort for the next one to something a little more simple and reliable. Often when someone, including myself, does not know what happened the first 2 guesses are something was weighed wrong or the finished dough temperature (FDT) strayed unnoticed out of the range used in prior successful batches.

On your next batch, if you follow what I suggested or your own version of that, I would be shocked if this happens again.

Richardk · July 13, 2024, 08:34:29 AM

Hi @foreplease,

Here are the results from this dough today. Pizzas were a Mediterranean herb mix called Zaatar,

The picture of the dough balls was about 5 hours out of the fridge, and temperature today was about 18c. As you can see, they just flattened out, and were about 20mm high.

Taste was still very good, but when opening they virtually had no air, and took longer to get the shape, as they just kept shrinking unless I really worked them. The crust was soft but thick, with very small air pockets.

Still trying to figure out what went wrong.

Thanks again for your help.

foreplease · July 13, 2024, 12:12:44 PM

I have always wanted to try Zaatar since seeing it on focaccia or breadsticks on Food Network. I'm stumped why this is happening to you but if you try each of my suggestions in your next batch I will be shocked if things do not improve. Meantime, perhaps someone else will wander in with a helpful suggestion.

Richardk · July 17, 2024, 12:47:18 AM

Hi @foreplease

Zaatar is one of my favourites, especially for breakfast/brunch pizza's. Another breakfast favourite is a cheese mix with Halloumi Cheese and Mozzarella or Fior Di Latte. The saltiness of the Halloumi and the sweetness of the Mozzarella, just go perfectly. Just add a side dish of Lebanese cucumber, Kalamata olives and tomatoes - Superb.

I actually recently made a Focaccia with Zaatar, and is was very good.

Thanks again for trying to sort out the issue I had.

If you do decide on making Zaatar or the Cheese pizza, let me know how you go.

TXCraig1 · July 17, 2024, 11:23:40 AM

It might simply be the flour. Over the years I've had a couple bags of flour that acted just like that initially. After an overnight rest in bulk, they balled nicely and seemed otherwise normal.

Richardk · July 18, 2024, 07:31:11 AM

Craig, I was hoping that would happen, but the bulk nor the balls really rose as much as they have in the past, and they both didn't seem to have much air in them.

As I mentioned early, the taste was still good, but harder to open and shape.

I have some flour left over, so I will try it next time I make some pizza dough, and see if I get the same result.

I will also be using the same yeast this weekend to make focaccia, so I will see if the yeast is the issue.

pbc · July 18, 2024, 03:11:58 PM

My batch of dough did the same thing a few weeks ago. In my case it was either that the IDY was old (was in the freezer a couple years), or I possibly accidentally mixed the yeast into the salt/water combo instead of into the flour and killed the yeast, is my guess.

Richardk · July 23, 2024, 05:51:30 AM

Hi @foreplease,

I made my Focaccia on Saturday, with half Zaatar and the other half a mix of Halloumi/Fior di Latte.

These were baked in my normal electric oven.

Here are the pics for you as promised.

foreplease · July 23, 2024, 08:32:29 AM

Quote from: Richardk on July 23, 2024, 05:51:30 AMHi @foreplease,

I made my Focaccia on Saturday, with half Zaatar and the other half a mix of Halloumi/Fior di Latte.

These were baked in my normal electric oven.

Here are the pics for you as promised.

It look delicious. Were you happy with it?

Richardk · July 23, 2024, 09:53:35 AM

Yes I was happy with the results, as were my Italian friends who make Focaccia themselves too.

The only thing I am trying to fix is to get it more crispy on top without burning it, and a bit more cooked on the bottom.

This might be hard with my older electric oven, but I will keep tinkering every time I make one.