Dough Sticky

pbc · July 14, 2024, 08:12:33 PM

So didn't make any pizzas last year due to lots of summer travel. Back at it this year and have been having the same issue, basically the dough ends up quite sticky and the dough balls get pretty flat as per the pictures.

I've been using a 60% hydration with bread flour. 270 gram dough balls. 823 grams of flour. 494g of water. 25 grams of salt and about 2 grams of yeast.

Water combined with salt and sugar. Then I add the flour mixed with 2 grams of IDY into the water mixture using a KitchenAid mixer for 10 minutes or so.

Would then either place the dough into an air tight container for 24 hours in the fridge, then take it out about 4 or 5 hours before hand and ball it up and place into the proofer.

Today instead I just did same day dough so went straight from the mixer into the proofer for 5 hours.

Can't figure out what I'm doing wrong? Dough is sticky and tends to stick to the oiled proofed and hard to properly stretch.

pbc · July 14, 2024, 08:14:03 PM

Yuvalvv · July 15, 2024, 08:54:24 AM

Apart from losing its shape, the dough looks fine to me fermentation-wise. Why specifically 5 hours (for both the same-day dough and 24 CF)? It might be that 5 hours as balls for this dough/flour (what flour are you using?) and fermentation conditions (what is your room temperature? fridge temperature?) is too much and the dough becomes overly extensible. How does the dough look/feel when you take it out of the fridge? Have you been measuring the final dough temperature?

pbc · July 15, 2024, 11:54:17 AM

Quote from: Yuvalvv on July 15, 2024, 08:54:24 AMApart from losing its shape, the dough looks fine to me fermentation-wise. Why specifically 5 hours (for both the same-day dough and 24 CF)? It might be that 5 hours as balls for this dough/flour (what flour are you using?) and fermentation conditions (what is your room temperature? fridge temperature?) is too much and the dough becomes overly extensible. How does the dough look/feel when you take it out of the fridge? Have you been measuring the final dough temperature?

Shouldn't the dough be a slightly more firm ball? I.e., it's literally almost flat, and sticky to the point where it is hard to get off of the proofer (despite the proofer being oiled) and sticks to the hand so that it becomes much more difficult to properly shape.

Flour is Robin Hood Bread flour (13% protein). But had the same issue with a couple 00 ones I tried (can't recall the name).

No, haven't been measuring dough temperature. Is there a certain range I should be targeting?

If I cold ferment for 24 hours, dough looks and feels ... fine I guess. Can easily mold it into balls, similar to how it feels coming out of the mixer. Sticky, but not overly so.

As for 5 hours, just what I've always done in the past. Not sure why I'm having this issue this year. Wondering if maybe I was using a lower hydration point.

Room temp is around 72-74 degrees. Fridge I believe is set to 35 degrees.

Yuvalvv · July 15, 2024, 04:01:33 PM

Quote from: pbc on July 15, 2024, 11:54:17 AMShouldn't the dough be a slightly more firm ball? I.e., it's literally almost flat, and sticky to the point where it is hard to get off of the proofer (despite the proofer being oiled) and sticks to the hand so that it becomes much more difficult to properly shape.

Not necessarily... If the dough is STICKY, that might be a problem, but if it's merely "flat," that's not necessarily a problem, it means that the gluten has become too extensible (due to various factors). When I said "it looks fine fermentation-wise", I meant that the dough doesn't appear severely over-fermented. Slightly "flat" dough balls are fine, the dough doesn't need to puff up like a donut. For example, if you had placed the dough balls closer to each other, they would "support" each other and prevent this "flattening", so they would gain volume upwards ("puff up") rather than to the sides ("flatten"). BUT, if the dough is unmanageable, that's a different story. How did the pizza turn out?

You're using strong flour, and when paired with a 60% hydration, you should be getting more elasticity in the dough (less "flattening"). So, if your dough-making process is correct (how does the dough look/feel after kneading?), something during fermentation isn't right, and it might be your final dough temperature (FDT). You can read about FDT here: https://www.pizzablab.com/the-encyclopizza/final-dough-temperature/

If your FDT is on the higher side, that might explain why the dough becomes overly extensible (the dough ferments faster). It might also explain why you're getting different results at different times of the year (different ingredient temperatures = fluctuations in the FDT). It's not necessarily the case here, but it's a common cause for inconsistency between dough batches that is worth considering.

Yuvalvv · July 15, 2024, 05:20:32 PM

One more thing - are you, by any chance, adding the IDY to COLD water?

pbc · July 15, 2024, 05:24:59 PM

Quote from: Yuvalvv on July 15, 2024, 04:01:33 PMNot necessarily... If the dough is STICKY, that might be a problem, but if it's merely "flat," that's not necessarily a problem, it means that the gluten has become too extensible (due to various factors). When I said "it looks fine fermentation-wise", I meant that the dough doesn't appear severely over-fermented. Slightly "flat" dough balls are fine, the dough doesn't need to puff up like a donut. For example, if you had placed the dough balls closer to each other, they would "support" each other and prevent this "flattening", so they would gain volume upwards ("puff up") rather than to the sides ("flatten"). BUT, if the dough is unmanageable, that's a different story. How did the pizza turn out?

You're using strong flour, and when paired with a 60% hydration, you should be getting more elasticity in the dough (less "flattening"). So, if your dough-making process is correct (how does the dough look/feel after kneading?), something during fermentation isn't right, and it might be your final dough temperature (FDT). You can read about FDT here: https://www.pizzablab.com/the-encyclopizza/final-dough-temperature/

If your FDT is on the higher side, that might explain why the dough becomes overly extensible (the dough ferments faster). It might also explain why you're getting different results at different times of the year (different ingredient temperatures = fluctuations in the FDT). It's not necessarily the case here, but it's a common cause for inconsistency between dough batches that is worth considering.

Thanks, will pay attention to dough temperature next time, maybe use colder water to start, and a lower fermentation time. As for the final pizza, the crust was not airy at all and I wasn't able to really stretch it well as it would start to tear, so the middle was a bit more doughy firm than I'd like.

I thought the extra stickiness maybe implied I was using a hydration factor a bit too high for the flour?

pbc · July 15, 2024, 05:26:40 PM

Quote from: Yuvalvv on July 15, 2024, 05:20:32 PMOne more thing - are you, by any chance, adding the IDY to COLD water?

Nope, learned my lesson on that a year or two ago. At some point I was putting the IDY into the water and salt...as you can imagine that didn't turn out well. But in that case it caused the dough to not rise at all!

pbc · July 15, 2024, 05:29:59 PM

Actually, seeing your post in another thread, wonder if I'm mixing at too high a speed and/or for too long in the Mixer. 10 minutes at the second to slowest speed, and thinking maybe the slowest speed is better. Trying to remember what I did when my dough was more successful!

pbc · July 18, 2024, 03:13:52 PM

Okay, so decided to try a 72 hour cold ferment and this time will take it out 2 or 3 hours beforehand. Found an old Tom L post (RIP) where he suggested less time in the mixer, and then putting the batch of dough into the fridge for a couple hours uncovered to let it cool appropriately before throwing a lid on it.

Temp of dough as 77 deg after mixing. Let's see how things go Sunday.

Yuvalvv · July 18, 2024, 07:49:31 PM

Letting the dough cool uncovered is done to prevent condensation, which can be a significant problem if you cold ferment the dough in balls. When bulk fermenting, it is less of an issue because the water is "reabsorbed" into the dough once it is balled, but it can still have a negative effect, including creating sticky dough.
If you'd like, you can read more about it here: https://www.pizzablab.com/learning-and-resources/fermentation/how-to-cold-ferment-pizza-dough ('Condensation in the Fermentation Container' section)

Additionally, you can also read in full detail about Tom's CF method (which I refer to as the "Lehmann method").

Do update!

Yuvalvv · July 19, 2024, 06:00:56 AM

Quote from: H.Sumrall on July 19, 2024, 05:19:29 AMNo worries! It sounds like your dough might be a little too hydrated. Try adding a tablespoon of flour at a time until the dough is less sticky, and use a little olive oil to coat your hands and proofing container. Even with same-day dough, letting it rest for 30 minutes after shaping can make it much easier to stretch!

Thanks ChatGPT.

gcpizza · July 19, 2024, 11:29:36 AM

Quote from: H.Sumrall on July 19, 2024, 05:19:29 AMNo worries! It sounds like your dough might be a little too hydrated. Try adding a tablespoon of flour at a time until the dough is less sticky, and use a little olive oil to coat your hands and proofing container. Even with same-day dough, letting it rest for 30 minutes after shaping can make it much easier to stretch!

Quote from: Yuvalvv on July 19, 2024, 06:00:56 AMThanks ChatGPT.

In my opinion, as irrelevant as it may be, this forum is a place for pizza enthusiasts, i.e. humans, to interact with one another by sharing experiences, assisting one another overcome problems and overall form a community around the shared interest of all things pizza. AI accomplishes none of this. At this point AI produces relatively generic results that really are of no help to anyone here. AI will get better with time, but here's the thing - If people want to use AI to assist them with pizza related issues, they can do so themselves. They do not need H.Sumrall to do it for them. In my opinion unless AI produces a truly insightful response to a unique issue, it should be strongly discouraged from being used on the forum. If AI is used and providing something of value, it should, as Steve requested, be clearly notated as being the source of the provided information. H.Sumrall (and some others) is playing a game. This account was created a few weeks ago and has basically only posted output from AI. To what end I do not know, but if allowed to continue this type of nonsense will only get worse.

pbc · July 21, 2024, 04:55:56 PM

Different week, same dough. This time I made the dough Thursday per my note above. Placed the bulk dough in the fridge (at ~75 deg). Took it out an hour ago (was 39 degrees), and balled it up, but again it was sticky and not smooth.

After an hour, hasn't changed much. I'm lost at this point.

kori · July 21, 2024, 05:30:17 PM

Go buy a bag of Rogers AP unbleached flour and try again.

You aren't the first one recently to be having similar issues with Robin Hood BF.

Yuvalvv · July 22, 2024, 08:35:27 AM

That's some strange looking dough

It's hard to think of anything that YOU have done to make the dough behave like this, this appearance is not normal, looks like severely degraded gluten, but not like what you'd expect from a "normal" overfermented dough. So I second Kori, a bad bag of flour might be the issue.

I have experienced this before (with local flour), some bags of flour contained higher levels of damaged starch than usual, which made the dough unable to handle fermentation beyond 4-5 hours before it became excessively sticky and "fragile" due to the excessive breakdown of starch. When I brought this to the mill's attention, they compensated me with 20 bags, they weren't even aware of the problem since 99% of people using this flour ferment their dough for a short period, so the excessive damaged starch doesn't make a difference to them.

As an experiment, you could try making a 2-3 hour dough to see if the dough behaves differently.

pbc · July 23, 2024, 10:56:50 AM

I keep wondering if I'm using too much yeast. E.g., if a recipe calls for say 0.9 grams of yeast, but my scale only measures in 1 gram increments, I'm possibly getting to 2 grams at times. I can't imagine 1.1 grams making that much of a difference but hey I'm sure it could!

Also, in terms of mixing in the yeast. I usually just add it to the flour, then mix it a bit with a spoon, before adding it to the water/salt mixture. Have always wondered if doing that actually properly saturates the yeast into the total dough mix, since adding 1 grams into 823 grams of flour I can imagine it might not mix thoroughly.

The actual taste of the dough was pretty good, and had some airiness to it at least. Excuse my challenge of making round doughs (the stickiness caused them to stick a bit too much to the peel so would deform a bit if I wasn't 100% careful).