Recreating Missouri Greek Style - Ideas?

[brownSys]

Hello,

I am new to the forums here. I hope this isn't an inappropriate place to post this but given there isn't a different category for this particular style of pizza I'm posting here.
Ok here goes. I have been trying to recreate this "Greek" style pizza crust that is found in various parts of Missouri. All of them seem to have originated from one place "Arris Pizza" in Jefferson City MO.

In particular I am trying to recreate the dough/crust as the rest is easy enough to do. 

Attached are a few pictures I found that I hope illustrate the style.  

This pizza style is characterized by being a thin crust with a "braided" outer crust/cornice. The crust is relatively soft with the edge ranging from slightly soft/pillowy to crispy/flaky/crunchy. Seemingly dependent on how long it was cooked and how thick the "cornice" was made. Often a given pizza will have a variety of these textures on various slices which is awesome.  

I've watched them shape the dough and they use a sheeter then they fold the edge over to the inside and push down with their thumb all the way around the pizza to form the edge. 
 
A couple of other somewhat unique characteristics. They put all toppings under the cheese with the exception of their greek sausage. Also they use deli slices of cheese. 

On heavily topped and meaty pizzas the crust becomes too floppy to hold up. Some of their specialty pizzas with 7+ toppings are best eaten with a fork. The undercarriage on these is soft and deliciously absorbs the meat grease. With a single topping there is no flop and the crust has a crispy undercarriage. 

I've been able to recreate the look of this pizza style but the texture isn't even close. The edge is always too hard and/or tough, not a hint of flaky or soft.

I've tried all kinds of recipes but honestly haven't ever been able to identify a good starting point. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks!

P.S. I would be very interested to hear if anyone else has seen this style in other parts of the country. I've never seen it anywhere else. 

[TXCraig1]

Usually, if not always, when folks here talk about "Greek pizza," it's a pan pizza similar to bar style but a bit thicker. From your description and the pictures here and online, the dough sound like it has some pastry dough similarities - relatively low hydration and high oil. My guess is it's rolled out rather than hand opened.

I'd suggest looking at the Chicago thin posts and see if you can find some with a crust that looks similar and go from there. 

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16422.0.html

[Pete-zza]

brownSys,

There is also a thread on Greek style pizza, at:

Greek pizza

Peter

[TXCraig1]

Peter - I didn't want to send him there as it's so different from what he's trying to do. No need to go down that rabbit hole if he's tryin to duplicate the pizza in this post.

It did get me thinking on why what we call "Greek Pizza" is called Greek pizza. I couldn't find much on it and nothing that suggests there is anything Greek about it other than the first guy to call it Greek pizza was Greek.

[Pete-zza]

Craig,

Thanks for clarifying the matter. I grew up in the Northeast, in Massachusetts, and Greek style pizzas were all over the place. I personally rarely ate any other style of pizza. Several places even used [insert name]House of Pizza as their names. I did a Google search today and found twenty Massachusetts pizza places that currently use House of Pizza in their names. A similar search for New Hampshire also yielded twenty names. Likewise for Maine. Of course, I can't say that they all make Greek Style pizzas.

As a footnote, I should mention that there is even one place in Missouri using that name and makes New England style pan pizza, at:

https://houseofpizza.com/menu/

Peter

[TXCraig1]

Interestingly, what I found to be the first place to sell Greek pizza was not House of Pizza but rather Pizza House (New London, Connecticut, 1955).

[TXCraig1]

https://eatthisct.com/inventionofgreekpizza/

[brownSys]

Usually, if not always, when folks here talk about "Greek pizza," it's a pan pizza similar to bar style but a bit thicker. From your description and the pictures here and online, the dough sound like it has some pastry dough similarities - relatively low hydration and high oil. My guess is it's rolled out rather than hand opened.

I'd suggest looking at the Chicago thin posts and see if you can find some with a crust that looks similar and go from there.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16422.0.html

Thanks! Yes, in my quest I did the obvious and searched "greek pizza" and nothing I've ever found labeled "greek" looks anything like this Missouri "greek" pizza. 

Your right that it does seem to have "pastry" dough qualities. I've tried adding butter into my dough but that didn't seem like the right track, then again maybe I just did it wrong.
 
It is rolled out. They absolutely use a sheeter. One place has an open kitchen and you can watch them go from dough ball to the oven.  I understand that part of the process pretty well.

I have been making Chicago thin/taverns and I've gotten quite good at that. It is the closest thing to this Missouri "greek" that I've found but if I "braid" the edge it turns out either rock hard when cooked too long or just tough (kind of like a baguette). It should be either crunchy/crispy if cooked longer (similar to a pretzel) or soft when it's undercooked (soft like a Papa Johns cornice) with a hint of flakiness (flakiness like Pizza Hut thin crust). Not sure what they are doing to get these qualities. 

I think I'm missing something on the recipe or maybe it just comes down to not using a pizza oven. Not sure which direction to go exactly and I've gone a bunch of directions. I just don't feel like I'm getting any closer. 

I will have a look at the Chicago thin forum. 

Thanks for the suggestions. I appreciate it. 

Pete-zza,

Of course I appreciate your input as well. Thank you!

[Pete-zza]

Craig,

To close this House of Pizza/Pizza House matter, interestingly, there are a few places in Connecticut that use the House of Pizza name (I found four from a Google search), but there are more places (I found nine) that use the Pizza House name.

Peter

[TXCraig1]

I have been making Chicago thin/taverns and I've gotten quite good at that. It is the closest thing to this Missouri "greek" that I've found but if I "braid" the edge it turns out either rock hard when cooked too long or just tough (kind of like a baguette). It should be either crunchy/crispy if cooked longer (similar to a pretzel) or soft when it's undercooked (soft like a Papa Johns cornice) with a hint of flakiness (flakiness like Pizza Hut thin crust). Not sure what they are doing to get these qualities.

I think I'm missing something on the recipe or maybe it just comes down to not using a pizza oven. Not sure which direction to go exactly and I've gone a bunch of directions. I just don't feel like I'm getting any closer.

This style is definitely not my strong suit, but if you'll post the recipe and workflow you've been trying, I'll let you know what I'd try differently.

[brownSys]

This style is definitely not my strong suit, but if you'll post the recipe and workflow you've been trying, I'll let you know what I'd try differently.

Thanks. Here was my last attempt. It was alright. Maybe the closest yet.

Recipe:
Flour: 525g
Water: 326g  (62%) warm
Salt: 13.1g
Instant Yeast: 2.6g
Diastatic Malt Powder: 5.3g
Olive Oil: 30g
Sugar: 15g

Procedure:
 1. water, sugar, and yeast into bowl. Gentle mix.
 2. Flour, salt, malt powder in a bowl. Mix.
 3. Add a bit of flour mixture in to water and mix (by hand) until absorbed then add more and repeat until all flour add is in and water is absorbed. Add olive oil. Mix a bit more.
 4. Let rest covered for 20 min.
 5. Roll dough into a log shape and then fold it over. Repeat 3 times.
 6. Create dough balls.
 7. Place in proofing tray overnight (~24 hours).
 8. Bring out of fridge let balls proof for 2-3 hours at room temp.
 9. Preheat oven to 500 for at least 1 hour. Steel on second from bottom rack and stone on second from top rack.
 10. Flour shaping surface. Roll dough out with rolling pin.
 11. Shake flour off of shaped pizza dough.
 12. Place on peel (lightly dusted with semolina).
 13. Make the braided edge.
 14. Sauce, toppings, cheese
 15. Bake on bottom rack (steel) for 3-4 minutes. Rotate and move to top rack (stone) for 1-2 min. Broil if necessary to brown the cheese slightly.

Thanks!

[TXCraig1]

I'm thinking low 50's hydration - maybe 52% to start - and upwards of 10% oil (I'd use melted shortening like Crisco).

[brownSys]

I'm thinking low 50's hydration - maybe 52% to start - and upwards of 10% oil (I'd use melted shortening like Crisco).

Thanks! Will give it a go.

[TXCraig1]

Look forward to seeing the results.

[brownSys]

Look forward to seeing the results.

Just wanted to say thank you for the encouragement to look further into Chicago thin. I've found a lot of good information there and just a moment ago I found this youtube video where they try a bunch of Chicago thin and one has a "braided" edge.
 
Link to that part here @15:58:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDfYKbcCQyY&t=958s

While the pizza shown in this video is different in many ways I think Chicago thin/tavern is likely the origin of Missouri "Greek". This has me fired up. Looking forward to my next batch. Will be sure to update on my next attempt with some pictures and the rest. 

Thanks again!

[hammettjr]

That braid is neat!

Aside from the braid, it looks similar to the Greek pizza I grew up with in Connecticut. I once described it as biscuit-like, perhaps my biscuit is your pastry 

The Greek thread referenced above is very long and covers atleast 2 different styles. But 2 ingredients references in it you may want to consider are eggs and milk.

[brownSys]

That braid is neat!

Aside from the braid, it looks similar to the Greek pizza I grew up with in Connecticut. I once described it as biscuit-like, perhaps my biscuit is your pastry 

The Greek thread referenced above is very long and covers atleast 2 different styles. But 2 ingredients references in it you may want to consider are eggs and milk.

Thanks! Very interesting. Eggs & milk you say? Sounds odd but I will look into that. 

[brownSys]

I made a couple of 14" pizzas last night from a new batch. I used a dough recipe that was largely based around the thread here: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,48914.0.html

Flour 300.7g (gold medal AP from walmart)
Water 129.3g (43%)
Salt 5.3g (1.75%)
Olive Oil 9g (3%)
Yeast 0.9g (0.3%)
Diastatic Malt Powder 2.6g (?)
Sugar 9g (3%)

I didn't do any type of kneading of the dough. I felt like the hand mixing process was plenty. It was difficult to get it to combine being so dry so it got worked a fair bit just combining it.

RT bulk ferment for 12 hours, Balled, CF for 13 hours (emergency dough otherwise I would have gone 36h as suggested by the above thread).

This produced a crust that was much closer to what I am going for. Definitely achieved the flaky/cruchy/crispiness. It wasn't perfect but it's defiantly a lot closer than I've ever been. I'm planning to double or triple the oil next time in order to better understand what impact that has. 

Unfortunately I don't have pictures of this round. My Halloween guests consumed these two 14" pizzas in about 5min so I just didn't get a chance. Needless to say, they liked it. 

[brownSys]

My latest attempt I used the recipe below. I had planned for a 12 hour RT bulk fermentation but the room temp was around 60-65 degrees for that time and I could tell it hadn't been long enough. I was going out of town for a night so I opted to leave it and it likely stayed around 60-65 degrees for 36 hours. Then I balled and CF for ~24 hours. I then let the balls come up to room temp ~70 degrees then made the shells.

The fermentation worked out great. Lots of flavor in that dough. I think the crust was a bit dryer than what I am going for but the added oil definitely seemed to improve it. The dough was not tough/hard but very crispy/crunchy.

The cheese pizza was very dry but the pepperoni was nice because the dry crust soaked up the pepperoni grease and made for a very nice combination of soft, crunchy, flavorful crust.

On the next one I'm debating whether to increase the oil, the water, or both.

Recipe:
Open
   
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
           

	Grams	Kilograms	Milliliters	Ounces	Pounds	Teaspoons	Tablespoons	Cups
Flour(100%)	323.313	0.323		11.405	0.713
Water(43%)	139.025	0.139		4.904	0.306
Instant Dry Yeast (0.3%)	0.97	0.001		0.034	0.002	0.322	0.107	0.007
Morton's Kosher Salt (1.75%)	5.658	0.006	5.81	0.2	0.012	1.179	0.393	0.025
Diastatic Malt Powder (1%)	3.233	0.003	6.374	0.114	0.007	1.293	0.431	0.027
Olive Oil (9%)	29.098	0.029	31.872	1.026	0.064	6.466	2.155	0.135
Sugar (3%)	9.699	0.01	11.992	0.342	0.021	2.433	0.811	0.051
Total (158.05%, TF=0.051)	510.997	0.511		18.025	1.127
Single Ball (2 balls total)	255.498	0.255		9.012	0.563

[TXCraig1]

If it was me, I'd up the hydration to 47% and the oil to 10%, and I'd use shortening rather than olive oil. On the following batch, I'd go 50%HR and 10% shortening.