New to spiral mixer - disaster

[Dentifrice]

Hi!

Bought a spiral mixer and first try was a disaster.

What I usually do :

Type : Neapolitain
Hydration : 62%
Salt : 3%
Size : 280gr each ball

24h RT (12h bulk, 12h balled)

Caputo Pizzeria

Made with a kitchen aid stand mixer

- Mix all ingredients except salt at lowest speed for 1-2 minutes
- Add salt
- Mix for 10-12 min 2-3 speeds up

Cooked in Ooni Koda 16 at 850f for about 60 seconds. I turn down the burner half when launched

Easy to stretch (sometimes too easy, the gluten is probably not strong enough and it tears in the middle from time to time).


Now my spiral mixer :

- Same recipe, same ingredients
- Same fermentation time and everything
- Cooked in same oven, same temperature

Mixer has 10 speeds

1- mix at speed 2-3 for about 2 minutes slowly pouring water
2- mix at speed 4-5 for 2 minutes
3- added salt
4- mix for about 7-8 minutes


But OH BOY. It looked like the gluten was SO strong and I wasn't able to make pie larger than 9 inches. It was like stretching a cold dough (except it was RT all along).
The crust was burning so easily, never happened. Some spots even catch fire on all 3 pizza I cooked. For the last 2, I had to turn down the burner all the way down.

I don't know what is going on. And the crust didn't spring at all. Just a tough white bread like crust.

Observations and things to note  :

1- I suppose I will need to use colder water. It seams a spiral mixer heats the dough way faster. I ended up at 27 celsius. I don't know if it can impact things
2- Can I have over mix and made a gluten network too strong ?

I read several recipes using spiral mixers (gozney, modernist pizza, etc) and they mix way less than that.


So my theory for the impossible stretch is over kneading. I had doubts because during fermentation it didn't spring at all. The balls stayed at the same size (yeast is good).


But why did my dough burnt so easily?  I don't understand this part.


So in summary :

1- dough temp went to 27C (80f) during kneading (no idea if it can impact)
2- dough impossible to stretch (it was room temp). Possible overkneading?
3- why did the dough burnt so easily? Same recipe, same ingredients, same over, same temp. Can it also be related to over kneading?




Here's some pictures. First 2 are what I ended up today. Then the others is what I usually do

thank you!

[MarcelloRoma]

What kind of flour?

[Dentifrice]

What kind of flour?

caputo pizzeria

[MarcelloRoma]

Your pizza looks really good on the outside but lack of spring and air pockets can be due to one of several causes:

It could be either overworked dough (yeast is dead and has already eaten its way through your dough) or you didn't let it proof enough . . . or not sufficient gluten mesh.  

Make sure your dough passes the window-pane test after mixing and before proofing.  Then, do not let it cold ferment too long, or when you take it out of the fridge, do not let it sit ambient too long.  In the fridge or not, I know my dough is ready to put into the pan or onto the peel when I push my finger into it and how the finger indent springs back, or not.  

Pizza is art and science.  

[MarcelloRoma]

By the way, I totally gave up on 00 flours, even for Napoletana pizza and made the switch to a higher protein, stronger type 0 (Manitoba) flour > 13% protein.  Now, I get too many bubbles in my pizza. 

Again, the window-pane test after mixing is my litmus test for a good pizza dough.  You can always screw it up after by letting it sit too long, but you have to begin with a good gluten mesh.

I learned a lot from these guys . . . you can set your CC to auto translate:  https://www.youtube.com/@MalatidiPizza

[jsadler]

This may be rhetorical of me to ask but would it be possible that in this particular case you've forgotten to add the yeast or leavening agent while mixing? I've almost done that a few times. It could also be that your leavening agent is inactive/old/dead as well, but only you would know how old and how much was added into your recipe. I use basically the same recipe with Caputo Pizzeria, 62% water, 3% salt and 24h RT 12h/12h as well, with ADY using Craig's yeast chart.

What I've found to work well for me is to mix at the lowest speed for however long is needed until the dough reaches 23.5-24 deg C. What I'm guessing this is doing is allowing the dough to come to temperature gently while ensuring that proper gluten development is forming without over-exerting the dough. Of course, sometimes it takes 20-40 mins this way for the temperature to come up so depending on your available time this may not be a suitable option. When I first received my spiral mixer (a KYS 7+), I was having similar issues where the dough seemed both overproofed and underdeveloped. I was adding my ADY to the icewater that I had put in the bowl first, which was shocking and killing the yeast (thank you Dough Doctor for your numerous threads and replies explaining the situation).

My method has since changed to:

• Add flour to mixer
• Add yeast on top of flour
• Turn mixer on lowest speed to distribute yeast granules
• In separate pitchers, fill one with ice and water, and another with the total salt
• Pour ice-water into pitcher with salt until preferred weight is achieved (to make water as cold as possible without adding ice cubes to the mixer)
• Pour about 60-70% of the cold salt-water into the still-spinning mixer
• Slowly add remaining cold salt-water over the course of the mix, general bassinage technique
• Mix until desired temp is reached - if the dough looks well developed or just about, but the temperature isn't where it needs to be, then I'll bump the speed to increase friction and warm it up, but only for a minute or so while constantly checking temps.
• Once temp is reached, turn mixer off and let it sit for 10-15 mins to relax
• Take dough out of mixer, rest on bench for ~10 mins, shape into bulk ball, and store

My current method may be a bit of a faff but it seems to work for me and has worked at various hydration levels and room temps and I enjoy the process. Best of luck and hope your dough turns out great next time!

[QwertyJuan]

Or, do as Tom suggested. The KISS(keep it simple, stupid) method. 

Salt and sugar in mixer.
Add water.
Add flour.
Add IDY to top.
Mix for 2-3 minutes.
Add oil.
Mix for 7-8 more minutes.
Done.

That's it. Do that and your dough will turn out every time.

[DDT]

Or, do as Tom suggested. The KISS(keep it simple, stupid) method. 

Salt and sugar in mixer.
Add water.
Add flour.
Add IDY to top.
Mix for 2-3 minutes.
Add oil.
Mix for 7-8 more minutes.
Done.

That's it. Do that and your dough will turn out every time.

I thought it's better to add salt at the end just before dough starts coming together. 

[Dentifrice]

Thanks all!

Second attempt. This time I followed Gozney spiral mixer recipe.

It went wayyyyy better. Super easy to stretch and it was like I always dreamed and wasn't able with my stand mixer : the dough could be stretched like crazy without tearing!

So happy I can finally have a strong gluten network.

But still not perfect. I would have like a crust with more air and less leopard spotting. It was pretty intense spotting.

Anyway, slowly getting better

[QwertyJuan]

I thought it's better to add salt at the end just before dough starts coming together.

Lots of different ways of doing it. But that was Tom's method and the one that he recommended to pizza places. I've been doing it that way for almost 10 years.

[TXCraig1]

Unless you're going to let the flour pre-hydrate before mixing, it doesn't make any difference if you add the salt at the beginning or end.

[Blodders]

Hi dentifrice, 
I'm in the exact same boat you were in prior to your discovery of the Gozney spiral mixer method. I've searched for that and draw a blank each time. Would you share it please? I'm at wits end with my new mixer (KYS pro 5). It's such a shame as the mixer appears to be of first class quality, build, finish and noise levels.
Thanks in advance.

[Dentifrice]

Hi dentifrice,
I'm in the exact same boat you were in prior to your discovery of the Gozney spiral mixer method. I've searched for that and draw a blank each time. Would you share it please? I'm at wits end with my new mixer (KYS pro 5). It's such a shame as the mixer appears to be of first class quality, build, finish and noise levels.
Thanks in advance.

It's in their book

https://us.gozney.com/products/pizza-volume-01-cookbook

[DDT]

Unless you're going to let the flour pre-hydrate before mixing, it doesn't make any difference if you add the salt at the beginning or end.

Thanks Craig. 

[QwertyJuan]

Unless you're going to let the flour pre-hydrate before mixing, it doesn't make any difference if you add the salt at the beginning or end.

What does the pre-hydration do? Builds more gluten I assume?

[TXCraig1]

What does the pre-hydration do? Builds more gluten I assume?

Not necessarily more - rather it helps the gluten develop faster with less mixing. It's particularly helpful with higher hydration doughs.

[QwertyJuan]

Not necessarily more - rather it helps the gluten develop faster with less mixing. It's particularly helpful with higher hydration doughs.

I've seen some people do it but I've never tried it. Thanks.

[TXCraig1]

I almost always do it now. 10-45 minutes depending on the hydration.

[QwertyJuan]

I almost always do it now. 10-45 minutes depending on the hydration.

Ok, for me... I am using 13k flour and 8k water, which works to 62% hydration. I always add about 20% old dough back in. So I would just put my water into the bowl, then my flour, mix it for a few seconds and then just let it sit for 45 minutes? Is that how that works? Then after it sets for 45 minutes, let's say, I just treat it as normal? 

[TXCraig1]

Ok, for me... I am using 13k flour and 8k water, which works to 62% hydration. I always add about 20% old dough back in. So I would just put my water into the bowl, then my flour, mix it for a few seconds and then just let it sit for 45 minutes? Is that how that works? Then after it sets for 45 minutes, let's say, I just treat it as normal?

I add all my water and flour, mix by hand with a spatula until pretty much no loose flour left and then rest for 10-15 min in most cases. If it's a high hydration (>70%), I'll go as long as 45. If it's sourdough, I add the starter with the flour and water. Same if it's a tiny amount of IDY which I dissolve into the water to be sure I get even distribution. After the rest, I add the salt (and yeast if a larger amount) and then start the normal mixing routine.

That's a long answer for yes, I'd do like you said, but I'd probably only do it for 10 min given the relatively low hydration.