All Trump plus xxx for NY dough

[Monkeyboy]

I have made about a dozen pies with straight All Trumps flour.  I found that I like 64% hydration for improved handling (less hydration and it is too dry, any seams do not disappear as it ferments).

I typically do about 6 hours RT bulk ferment then 2-3 days in fridge.  Ball.  Then another 4-6 hours at RT before making pies.

Can get the dough very thin.  Crust results are great - very sturdy...almost too sturdy though (as in no flop at the tip) and maybe a bit on the chewy side.

Should I look at mixing flours - thinking maybe 80% All Trump and 20% Bread flour or AP flour...would that soften the resulting crust a bit or might it be more around my process?

thanks

[xBOBxSAGETx]

I have made about a dozen pies with straight All Trumps flour.  I found that I like 64% hydration for improved handling (less hydration and it is too dry, any seams do not disappear as it ferments).

I typically do about 6 hours RT bulk ferment then 2-3 days in fridge.  Ball.  Then another 4-6 hours at RT before making pies.

Can get the dough very thin.  Crust results are great - very sturdy...almost too sturdy though (as in no flop at the tip) and maybe a bit on the chewy side.

Should I look at mixing flours - thinking maybe 80% All Trump and 20% Bread flour or AP flour...would that soften the resulting crust a bit or might it be more around my process?

thanks

I would definitely play with fermentation before playing with the recipe.  

For NYC style I've personally had night and day differences doing CF after I ball up my dough.  48-72hrs and it cranks.  If I do too long of bulk ferment, it seems to go overfermented and the dough becomes chewy because the gluten network is beginning to collapse 

I personally use AP flour or a low gluten bread flour at a lower hydration.  I'm not a fan of bread flours or AT, I feel that once the pizza cools down slightly the experience goes down hill rapidly.

But greatest lesson I can share with you is that 90% of the time it's a fermentation/workflow issue not a recipe issue.    

[kori]

I would try more time in balls, I always liked balling after 24hrs in the fridge then another 48hrs minimum, out of the fridge a good couple of hours before stretching.

[nanometric]

I have made about a dozen pies with straight All Trumps flour.  I found that I like 64% hydration for improved handling (less hydration and it is too dry, any seams do not disappear as it ferments).

I typically do about 6 hours RT bulk ferment then 2-3 days in fridge.  Ball.  Then another 4-6 hours at RT before making pies.

Can get the dough very thin.  Crust results are great - very sturdy...almost too sturdy though (as in no flop at the tip) and maybe a bit on the chewy side.

Should I look at mixing flours - thinking maybe 80% All Trump and 20% Bread flour or AP flour...would that soften the resulting crust a bit or might it be more around my process?

thanks

How much oil are you using in the dough? With AT, I like 2-3% for NYS, to soften the chew.

[Monkeyboy]

How much oil are you using in the dough? With AT, I like 2-3% for NYS, to soften the chew.

I'm under 2% oil...I'll try to bump it up

[TXCraig1]

The Scott 1-2-3 formula is a great place to start.

3% oil
2% salt
1% sugar.

64% HR work great with this and AT.

Don't overwork your dough - particularly if it's bromated. With 24h+ in the fridge, you don't need much, if any, kneading at all. Too much will make your pizza tough.

[Decoy205]

In the Difara thread I think they mixed with Caputo or something so it's not unheard of. Experimenting is fun to do. 

[xBOBxSAGETx]

The Scott 1-2-3 formula is a great place to start.

3% oil
2% salt
1% sugar.

64% HR work great with this and AT.

Don't overwork your dough - particularly if it's bromated. With 24h+ in the fridge, you don't need much, if any, kneading at all. Too much will make your pizza tough.

This is excellent advice.  I only have a KA mixer and tbh trying to extend "kneading" in a KA literally just makes things worse.  I incorporate everything besides salt and autolyse for 90 minutes at 68°F.  After that, I add in salt.  I'll pretty much be able to pass the window pane test after the 90m autolyse.  

I've tried hand kneading and kneading w/ KA. Now I'm utilizing autolyse and stretch and folds.  I'm getting superior results with an autolyse (with salt delay) and 2 stretch and folds spaced out every 30-45m.  I think for home applications this is the real move.  With the results I'm getting I could never justify a spiral mixer at this rate unless I started making more pizzas for friends and family 

For digestion, 72hrs of CF with balled up dough has been money for me.  48hrs on my previous run definitely made me bloated.

Right now I'm playing with my bulk ferment so I'll refrain from giving any advice on that until I have that figured out.  

[Yuvalvv]

I'll pretty much be able to pass the window pane test after the 90m autolyse. 

No need to pass the windowpane test for long-fermented dough. In fact, the opposite is true. I strongly recommend reading: Pizza Dough Mixing and Kneading Fundamentals: A Guide to the Most Important Step in Dough Making
(Also, I'd suggest removing the autolyse step, as it's mostly unnecessary)

For digestion, 72hrs of CF with balled up dough has been money for me.  48hrs on my previous run definitely made me bloated.

Unless you have specific gut or digestion issues, fermentation time has little to do with digestibility - that's a myth. Especially within the 48-72 hour cold fermentation range, the difference is negligible, as there's barely any additional activity in the dough during this time in terms of fermentation and maturation.

[xBOBxSAGETx]

No need to pass the windowpane test for long-fermented dough. In fact, the opposite is true. I strongly recommend reading: Pizza Dough Mixing and Kneading Fundamentals: A Guide to the Most Important Step in Dough Making
(Also, I'd suggest removing the autolyse step, as it's mostly unnecessary)
Unless you have specific gut or digestion issues, fermentation time has little to do with digestibility - that's a myth. Especially within the 48-72 hour cold fermentation range, the difference is negligible, as there's barely any additional activity in the dough during this time in terms of fermentation and maturation.

Aight well I'll tell you I was so bloated I had to pass on bedroom time with the wife and I got 12 kids.  I don't pass on that ever my dawg.  I was that bloated.  I don't have gluten or digestion issues at all.  So whatchu gonna tell me now lmaooo. 

I'll read that article rn

[xBOBxSAGETx]

No need to pass the windowpane test for long-fermented dough. In fact, the opposite is true. I strongly recommend reading: Pizza Dough Mixing and Kneading Fundamentals: A Guide to the Most Important Step in Dough Making
(Also, I'd suggest removing the autolyse step, as it's mostly unnecessary)
Unless you have specific gut or digestion issues, fermentation time has little to do with digestibility - that's a myth. Especially within the 48-72 hour cold fermentation range, the difference is negligible, as there's barely any additional activity in the dough during this time in terms of fermentation and maturation.

I just read the article and it agrees with me.  Minimal kneading. Basically just incorporating ingredients > Autolyse > stretch and folds.  Dough handling and dough ball structure is night and day.  

When I don't incorporate the stretch and folds my dough balls definitely fart out and lose extensibility, tear easily and have a more dense crumb.  

[Yuvalvv]

I just read the article and it agrees with me.  Minimal kneading. Basically just incorporating ingredients > Autolyse > stretch and folds.

Whoops. For some reason I thought you were using the KA after the autolyse.

So whatchu gonna tell me now lmaooo. 

I'd tell you that it's anecdotal and doesn't align with how digestion works biologically For a normal, healthy person without fructan/FODMAP intolerance or IBS, these are the main factors affecting digestibility in pizza:

1. Portion size (i.e. how much you eat)
2. Proper baking (ensuring the dough is not under-baked, as the majority of starch breakdown occur during baking)
3. Amount of cheese
4. Type of cheese (fat content)
5. Amount of sauce
6. Amount and type of toppings (meats tend to be "harder" to digest)
7. Dough formula (fat content)
.
.
.
??. Fermentation time

Looking at the pizzas you've posted here, while all look great, none are the same (different sizes, cheese amounts, toppings, doughs with varying fat content, etc.). Unless you can confirm that both pizzas in question were identical in every aspect, and that you've eaten the same amounts of dough, cheese and toppings, with the only variable being the fermentation time, I remain skeptical

[xBOBxSAGETx]

Whoops. For some reason I thought you were using the KA after the autolyse.
I'd tell you that it's anecdotal and doesn't align with how digestion works biologically For a normal, healthy person without fructan/FODMAP intolerance or IBS, these are the main factors affecting digestibility in pizza:

1. Portion size (i.e. how much you eat)
2. Proper baking (ensuring the dough is not under-baked, as the majority of starch breakdown occur during baking)
3. Amount of cheese
4. Type of cheese (fat content)
5. Amount of sauce
6. Amount and type of toppings (meats tend to be "harder" to digest)
7. Dough formula (fat content)
.
.
.
??. Fermentation time

Looking at the pizzas you've posted here, while all look great, none are the same (different sizes, cheese amounts, toppings, doughs with varying fat content, etc.). Unless you can confirm that both pizzas in question were identical in every aspect, and that you've eaten the same amounts of dough, cheese and toppings, with the only variable being the fermentation time, I remain skeptical

Ahh I just read what I wrote a second time and I'm telling you I was only being humorous.  I don't have 12 kids lmao.  I was only trying to paint a picture about how much I love that time. 

All of my pizzas have been 14" and 380g dough balls for NYC. Sauce amount is the same amount because I use a ladle BUT the compositions have been different, I'm sure that varies due to density but probably not a 50g +/- difference.  Cheese amount can vary as I eyeball that but the cheese type remains the same.  Toppings pretty much stay the same as well.

Previously I was using zero fat this most recent round did have 2% OO. 

CT Fermentation time at 48hrs did give me bloating.  The next day I made the remainder of the dough and didn't have any bloating with the same dough. 

As far as the mixing aspect goes I was saying with a KA it doesn't make sense to try and extend kneading time because it's simply not efficient at doing so.  So just using the KA to incorporate the ingredients yields great results and with the results I've been getting, I don't see the need to spend the money on a spiral mixer or anything like that at our scale. 

[Yuvalvv]

Ahh I just read what I wrote a second time and I'm telling you I was only being humorous.  I don't have 12 kids lmao.  I was only trying to paint a picture about how much I love that time. 

...And that's my cue to head to bed