Same-day dough has dinner roll-like color and texture

Started by RobertRat, January 18, 2025, 07:30:30 PM

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RobertRat

I've had 2-3 day cold ferment recipes under my belt that came out good and now I'm wanting to nail a same-day recipe to not have to plan so far ahead. I've read some threads on here asserting that there should be no taste advantage to cold ferment and the main benefit is simply a more forgiving margin of error. Maybe that's the part I'm finding out with same-day room temp doughs.

Every time I've tried doing a same day dough, it ends up with the texture of a dinner roll. The exterior evenly tans and browns (way more evenly than my CF doughs) but has no real crisp to it and is just soft at the surface. The pizza overall is dense, soft and has no chew to it. Contrasted to my CF doughs that, with less browning, end up with a more crispy exterior, better structure, and more chew.

Here's the recipe I used today:

300g KA Bread Flour
189g water (63%)
9g salt (3%)
9g Olive oil (3%)
1.2g IDY (0.4%)
~3/4 Tsp Diastatic Malt

6hrs room temp around 63-65F. My yeast amount is based off PizzApp calculating for 6hrs room temp at 65F.

The dough ball looked and felt really promising. It wasn't dense like there was no fermentation, nor all airy and collapsed like it overproofed. Stretched nice. All I know is as soon as it starts turning this even tan color in the oven, I know it's going to be bad pizza.

Is it the oil? I've used 3% with CF dough and don't have this issue.

Is it actually overproofed?



Pizza_Not_War

I'm mostly a sourdough baker so I'll point out the one obvious thing, KA bread flour is already malted so diastic malt is probably doing you no favors.

TXCraig1

I do this from time-to-time and always get nice crispy pizza. Usually my dough is:

65% HR (generally All Trumps)
3% oil
2.5% salt
2% Low diastatic malt powder
1% sugar
0.4% IDY

I use cheap vegetable oil. I don't know if it makes a difference. Bake on well preheated steel as high as possible  in the oven (leaving just enough room to work) as hot as the oven will get (585F). No screen.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

RobertRat

Quote from: TXCraig1 on January 18, 2025, 08:35:28 PMI do this from time-to-time and always get nice crispy pizza. Usually my dough is:

65% HR (generally All Trumps)
3% oil
2.5% salt
2% Low diastatic malt powder
1% sugar
0.4% IDY

I use cheap vegetable oil. I don't know if it makes a difference. Bake on well preheated steel as high as possible  in the oven (leaving just enough room to work) as hot as the oven will get (585F). No screen.
The fact this works for you with very similar recipe makes me think maybe mines overproofed?

TXCraig1

Quote from: RobertRat on January 18, 2025, 08:58:52 PMThe fact this works for you with very similar recipe makes me think maybe mines overproofed?

I don't know. That wouldn't be my first guess. What is your bake time/temp? Baking surface - stone or steel?
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

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TXCraig1

I'm not a big fan of KA bread flour though that likely isn't the issue.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

RobertRat

Quote from: TXCraig1 on January 18, 2025, 09:21:36 PMI don't know. That wouldn't be my first guess. What is your bake time/temp? Baking surface - stone or steel?
Everything regarding bake is the same as what I've had success with using CF. The dough is what's different

585F, steel, around 6-7 minutes usually

TXCraig1

Quote from: RobertRat on January 18, 2025, 10:33:21 PMEverything regarding bake is the same as what I've had success with using CF. The dough is what's different

585F, steel, around 6-7 minutes usually

Can you post a picture of your other pizza?
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

RobertRat

Quote from: TXCraig1 on January 19, 2025, 05:05:56 AMCan you post a picture of your other pizza?
Here's one. Usually with the CF doughs in my oven I'll struggle a bit to get overall browning on the rim before the cheese is done, however the browning it does get is what you expect out of pizza. Solid and rough to the touch, has just enough of that slight crunch when you bend it without being dried and hard.

Contrast that to the same day dough, which "browns" easily but takes up the look and feel of an olive garden breadstick.

RobertRat

Now I'm leaning towards it being underproofed. I didn't think it would be that because it rose a decent amount and there was some bubbles. But it did have an off-flavor that I didn't identify as flour at first, but I think that's what it was. It's the same as how the flour smells.

Just made a new dough with more like 0.5% IDY yeast and also mixed the yeast into the water which was around 95F. I did not do this step yesterday. I just put the yeast in the dry mix and added water that was about room temp.

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RobertRat

So this one ended up rising for about 7 hours. I might've messed up a bit by choosing to gently reball shortly before stretching to get rid of a few large bubbles, because it ended up being pretty tough to stretch.

But overall the bake got closer to what I need it to be. More crisp at the surface and some spots in the rim with nice air pockets, improved taste, better chew.

Still could be better, so next time I'll try a longer rise.

TXCraig1

Comparing our formulas:

Hydration - more or less the same
Salt - you use 0.5% more.
Oil - more or less the same amount but different types. I'm using vegetable/soy oil.
Sugar - you didn't use any. I use 1%
IDY - more or less the same
LDMP - I use 2% (low-strength), you use 0.5%,

The one difference I suspect may be meaningful is the LDMP. I'm using 4X what you use by weight. If you're using low-strength (20 Lintner), I'm using 4X as much. If you're using medium or high strength, you're using more. From the look of your pizza, that would surprise me. What brand do you use? You also don't use a any sugar. I'm doubting that it's a huge factor, but sugar does do a lot of different things in dough. I'm not a fan of reballing and generally wouldn't suggest it, and definitely not for a short ferment dough. I'm generally not a fan of olive oil in dough. I kind of doubt it's making a difference but is does have more acids than most oils and acids slow down the milliard reaction. That being said, I have no idea if olive oil shows browning.

Given we're both baking on steel at the same temp and for the same time, I see 3 difference that may matter: LDMP, sugar, and oil type. Also, you should confirm your oven temp with a thermometer, and baking on a screen is having some effect.

Some pics of my pizza with a similar formula/workflow/bake temp/time for comparison. Assuming you're using low-strength DMP, I'm not surprised there are differences, but I'm a bit surprised they are this stark.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

nanometric

#12
Quote from: RobertRat on January 18, 2025, 10:33:21 PM585F, steel
How thick is the steel, and you taking the steel temp with an IRT at launch? Is 585F the measured steel temp, or the oven setting, or...?

FWIW at 585F (steel temp) in my oven, 3/8" steel, baketime for NYS is typically under 6 minutes (using broiler).


RobertRat




I use Anthony's malt powder. I haven't really yet calibrated what's the proper amount. Ive tended to do close to 1 TSP/pizza.

Regarding sugar, I normally use 2% sugar in my dough and I didn't mention something on my original post. I actually made 2 doughs, one with 0 sugar and another with 2%. I made test breadsticks with both, found fairly low difference in those. Then I made the pizza with the 0 sugar dough (which is the one I posted the pictures of in the first post). Since that was bad, I cut my losses with the 2% sugar version and decided not to use it. Now I wish I had let it rise for a couple more hours and did another test.

Regarding the bake method, I'm pretty satisfied with it when the dough is good. I forget how thick my steel is but probably 3/8", I have a gas oven that heats from the bottom, and I've found my favorite spot is all the way at the top. Too close to the bottom and the bottom of the pizza outpaces the the top, and the heat thru the bottom of the pizza still causes the cheese to split before the rim is browned. All the way at the top of the oven it seems enough hot air collects up there to cook the rim, cheese, and bottom at a good rate. The broiler is also gas but I've found it pretty unwieldy to use effectively. I recently switched to using a screen on top of the steel for 90% of the bake and it's done great at developing an even crisp bake on the bottom without localized charring.

TXCraig1

I believe Anthony's strength is 60, so you're using about the same as I am. Maybe a bit more. I'm king of out of ideas except for wondering if your oven is actually a lot cooler than you think.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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DDT

I'm no help here  as I have such limited experience in different dough recipes but damn Craig, that is one nice looking pizza.

Cheazy E

Quote from: nanometric on January 20, 2025, 08:36:50 AMHow thick is the steel, and you taking the steel temp with an IRT at launch? Is 585F the measured steel temp, or the oven setting, or...?

FWIW at 585F (steel temp) in my oven, 3/8" steel, baketime for NYS is typically under 6 minutes (using broiler).



Yup. The first three pics in the thread don't showcase any of the hallmarks of a pizza baked at 585F on steel. I would invest in an IR thermometer and make sure you're preheating for at least 45 minutes.

Even then, I think there's a secondary problem with the yeast or over-kneading. There's not a lot of air in the dough. The bubbles are quite small and the dough spring isn't springing. The rim is super smooth and uniform, like it was shaped through molding, not from air and heat. 

That could all be chalked up to the low temperature, but it looks pretty dense all up. First things first, check the temperature. You might want to swap in some new yeast, too. 

Robenco15

Try 0.6% IDY and if you aren't opposed to it, use the broiler for part of the bake (last 2 minutes?). 

I've had this happen as well and introducing heat from above made a pretty significant difference. 

pizzasuz

Quote from: TXCraig1 on January 18, 2025, 09:22:47 PMI'm not a big fan of KA bread flour though that likely isn't the issue.
Curious as to why you dont like it? Seems recommended everywhere for bread flours. Also was wondering what you find works as a better alternative

TXCraig1

Quote from: pizzasuz on January 27, 2025, 12:45:40 AMCurious as to why you dont like it? Seems recommended everywhere for bread flours. Also was wondering what you find works as a better alternative
It tends to make doughs that are more elastic than I'd like.  In retrospect, my comment probably came across too strong. It's a good flour and probably the best bread flour I have readily available. For most folks, it's probably the best they have available in their grocery stores. I use a lot of it because it's easy and cheap for me to get in 50# bags. There are other foodservice bread flours I'd use if I had easy access. 
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

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