Author Topic: Lehmann's dough rise.  (Read 2862 times)

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Offline hyybwolf

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Lehmann's dough rise.
« on: August 06, 2009, 06:48:40 PM »
I had made a batch of Lehmann's dough last week that came out really good but I noticed I didn't get much of any rise while in the fridge. The dough basicaly went from a ball to a somewhat flat disc. If it actually had risen at all, it was very very little. Even when I pulled the dough out of the fridge to warm on the counter prior to using it rose a bit but not much. I would guess 10% increase maybe. The dough was very soft and easy to shape into pies though.

I was thinking that i didn't get a good rise because my IDY yeast was about 8 months old.
I made a knew batch today using new IDY. The dough has been in the fridge for about an hr or 2 and I'm not seeing any rise.

Is this normal? Prior to using Lehmann's dough with a cold ferment I was making my dough and bench rising it the same day. The dough would double in size in about an hr or two.


Offline UnConundrum

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Re: Lehmann's dough rise.
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2009, 07:27:32 PM »
A dough will rise much slower in the fridge than it will on the bench...

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Lehmann's dough rise.
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2009, 07:51:03 PM »

The Lehmann NY style dough formulation was created as a commercial dough formulation that is to be used in the context of cold fermentation. As such, the dough formulation uses small amounts of yeast and the dough is held (in the cooler) for about one or two days (or possibly three days) before using. Ideally, the dough balls should rise during fermentation but not so much as to run into each other in the dough boxes or trays and create a mess. You want the dough balls to behave in a restrained and reserved manner. However, I have discovered that there are certain things that are lost in translation when adapting the commercial Lehmann dough formulation to a home environment.

First, when a commercial batch is made using the Lehmann recipe, for example, for a hundred or more dough balls, the dough balls get a certain amount of bench time and fermentation at room temperature as the bulk dough batch out of the mixer is divided and scaled into individual dough balls (this can take 15 or more minutes depending on the number of dough balls and whether machines or workers are used to do the division). In a home setting with a small quantity of dough balls, unless some bench time is given to the dough balls, or else an autolyse or similar rest period is used, or the dough balls are kneaded by hand, or else other delay is built into the dough balls, the dough balls generally get little bench time and go into the refrigerator pretty quickly. I view this as an important step because, as noted in the next paragraph, home refrigerators are not as efficient as commercial coolers.

Second, commercial coolers operate at lower temperatures than a standard home refrigerator, perhaps by about seven or more degrees. Even then, when you are talking about making a hundred or more dough balls, it takes a lot more time for the dough balls to cool down in a commercial cooler than for a single or few dough balls to cool down in a home refrigerator. Moreover, the door of a typical home refrigerator is opened much more frequently than a commercial cooler, and the loading of a home refrigerator is subjected to many more changes than a commercial cooler as items are removed and replaced several times in a standard home refrigerator over the course of a day. Commercial coolers tend to get a lot less traffic. Also, some pizza operators make their dough balls at the end of the day when many of the workers have left for the day. That means even less traffic into the coolers. I suspect that on average a home refrigerator dough ball is perhaps warmer than a typical commercial dough ball. If so, that can mean a faster fermentation.

Third, most pizza operators use fairly low hydration values for their doughs, even those that are based on using bread flour and high-gluten flours that can tolerate higher hydration values. A typical range of hydration values used by professionals is around 56-59%. That means a fairly stiff dough. By contrast, our members like to use hydration values of around 62-63% and sometimes even higher. This means that higher hydration dough balls are likely to spread more in their storage containers than low hydration dough balls, especially if the dough balls are also on the warm side. Because of the way that the high hydration dough balls flatten and spread, it may appear to the naked eye that the dough balls have not risen, or risen by much. Usually, the dough balls have expanded but is not obvious to the naked eye. That is the reason why I personally use the poppy seed trick as described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html. Otherwise, I would not have a good idea as to the degree of expansion of the dough balls I make. I use the poppy seed method for just about every dough ball I make.

I wouldn't worry too much about the Lehmann dough balls you have been making. If you were faithful to the instructions, the dough balls should be fine. I am also not surprised that you haven't detected a rise in the dough balls after an hour or two. I would actually be worried if they did. I can assure you that if you used the same amounts of yeast with the Lehmann dough formulation that you used in your previous doughs, the dough balls would be rising all over the place.


Offline hyybwolf

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Re: Lehmann's dough rise.
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2009, 04:34:25 PM »
Thanks for the replies.
I have a dough ball on the counter now warming up.  It appeared to increase a wee bit in size before removing from fridge. It was a ball when i put it in the fridge last night and this morning it was more of a disc. It has been warming up on the counter for about an 1 1/2 hrs now and has increased some more. I would say 20% increase.
I'll know how good it turned out in about an hour.

I'm really curious to see how the proper amount of vwg turns out. I miscalculated the vwg with my first Lehmann's batch last week . I was way under.
Time to fire up the grill and play with my new IR thermometer!


Offline hyybwolf

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Re: Lehmann's dough rise.
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2009, 11:11:17 PM »
The results of my second batch of Lehmann's dough was decent. I baked both pies on the grill stone.
My first batch of dough was better. I had used the Lehmanns dough calulator set for kosher salt but used regular table salt by accident. The second batch I made sure to use kosher salt. I like the taste of the  crust from the first batch better so I'm going to try increasing the kosher salt from 1.75% to 2%.

The first batch I did in my oven and the pies came out excellent. The pies on the grill came out a bit more crisp on the bottom then I wanted. Still very good though. I pulled the last pie off the grill stone before the bottom crisped too much . The bottom was just about perfect but the outer perimeter crust was a tad under done. Not gummy but not crisp enough so I am wondering which one of the following would help.
1. When pushing out the dough, leave a bit less dough build up at the edge for the crust.
2. Bake the pie at a lower stone setting,  maybe 25-50 degrees less.
3. Lower the hydration rate from 63% to maybe 60-61% and/or lower the Oil from 1% to maybe .50%

I would really like to get the grill method down as I hate running the oven in the summer!