A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Author Topic: Pizzarium  (Read 338094 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2644
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #160 on: December 28, 2010, 12:40:04 PM »
Dellavecchia: If it interests you, in the "Pizza in Teglia" thread (response 10) a forum member posted a write-up and pics of one he made with 85% Caputo and 15% semolina.

I'd be extremely interested in, and would greatly appreciate, any description you would care to provide concerning the average characteristics of this type of pizza in Rome, in particular how the bottom tends to turn out.

JLP

JLP - From what I remember (2005), the bottom was slightly crisp/crunchy at its best, and soggy at it's worst. It varied form place to place.

John

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2644
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #161 on: December 28, 2010, 05:05:47 PM »
I got pretty good results. The caputo took forever to brown, no surprise there, so things got a little "crunchy". But overall it was a really flavorful dough and a great way to make pizza. It was close in texture to what I remember in Rome, but more crunchy. I need some more practice trying to get the dough in the pan as well - very difficult.

Next time I will try adding oil in the recipe, do more time in the mixer, and a longer ferment. I want really big bubbles and a super puffy middle. Maybe I need to up the hydration as well. Any advice appreciated.

10 minutes par bake at 500, added toppings, then under the broiler for around 7-10 minutes.

John

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8576
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #162 on: December 28, 2010, 05:48:04 PM »
John, nice job on your first try with caputo no less.    :D  You all make me wanna make one of these.  Perhaps this coming weekend.  John curious as to why you choose caputo over BF or HG flour? 

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2644
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #163 on: December 28, 2010, 06:00:43 PM »
John, nice job on your first try with caputo no less.    :D  You all make me wanna make one of these.  Perhaps this coming weekend.  John curious as to why you choose caputo over BF or HG flour? 

Chau - I really just did not have any bread flour on hand and only enough AP to accommodate 50% of the flour. Although I would love to make it work with this style of pizza, I think I need to cut it out of the mix. It is just not strong enough.

If you make one this weekend, try and shoot for really big bubbles and see what you get. Apparently this style can tolerate up to 72 hours of room temp ferment.

John

Offline Jose L. Piedra

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 404
  • Location: Montreal, QC
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #164 on: December 28, 2010, 08:05:48 PM »
The crumb on that pizza is impressive in and of itself, and incredible considering how soft the flour mix was. Did the use of preferment contribute to that result in your opinion?

***

There is a short upskirt at 8:26 and 8:46 here:


That is one awesome video. The bottom is charred, but it also seems quite supple and non-crispy judging by the way the scissors cut into it.

The production company provided the following recipe in the uploader's comments, which I'll reproduce here:

Flour (Tipo 0): 1 kg.
Water: 800 gr.
Salt: 12 gr.
Powdered beer yeast: 7 gr.
EVO: 1 spoonful

Refridgerate for 24 hours.

I have no idea about using beer yeast in pizza dough (and indeed didn't even know it was possible). As to the EVO, presumably, the spoon they're referring to is a tablespoon; it doesn't seem like a whole lot of oil for a dough with a kilo of flour. Most strikingly of all, there's only 1.2% salt. All intriguing stuff...

JLP

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 30449
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #165 on: December 28, 2010, 09:31:15 PM »
John,

Your first attempt went well!   :)  Your crumb looks so airy and moist. 

Norma

Offline Matthew

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2516
  • Location: Oakville, Ontario
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #166 on: December 29, 2010, 05:11:48 AM »
The crumb on that pizza is impressive in and of itself, and incredible considering how soft the flour mix was. Did the use of preferment contribute to that result in your opinion?

***

That is one awesome video. The bottom is charred, but it also seems quite supple and non-crispy judging by the way the scissors cut into it.

The production company provided the following recipe in the uploader's comments, which I'll reproduce here:

Flour (Tipo 0): 1 kg.
Water: 800 gr.
Salt: 12 gr.
Powdered beer yeast: 7 gr.
EVO: 1 spoonful

Refridgerate for 24 hours.

I have no idea about using beer yeast in pizza dough (and indeed didn't even know it was possible). As to the EVO, presumably, the spoon they're referring to is a tablespoon; it doesn't seem like a whole lot of oil for a dough with a kilo of flour. Most strikingly of all, there's only 1.2% salt. All intriguing stuff...

JLP

Jose,
You can most definitely use cake yeast; I always do, just triple the qty of IDY.  The formula you posted was similar to the one that I used in my previous effort.  I found the yeast to be a little high so I cut it down for the batch that I made up yesterday.  Gabriele rationale for using dried yeast over fresh because it's guaranteed/consistent.  He explains that with fresh yeast you don't know what kind of life that it has lived & if it has not been handled correctly it will affect your results.  I personally prefer fresh over dried & have never had any issues.  You can tell its viability by the colour & the smell.  I buy a small cube, cut it up in 20 grams portions & vacuum seal it & it lasts quite a while.  Ultimately he recommends using a mother dough.  The one that he uses was given to him by a family who cultivated it shortly after WWII.  The main problem with a mother dough for the part time baker is that it requires alot of work to keep it viable if you don't use it regularly.  The next best thing is using a liquid culture to make a sponge.  It will last up to a month in the fridge & when its finished you can easily make another batch.  Of the 3 starters that I currently use only one would work well under cold refrigeration but it would overpower the dough.  I am searching for a mild starter that will work well under refrigeration with a relatively short fermentation window.  I'll post the results from yesterdays batch later on today once I pull it out of the oven.  I'll get some crumb shots this time.  The spoon full of oil that he describes is infact a tablespoon (una cucchiaia).

Matt

Offline Matthew

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2516
  • Location: Oakville, Ontario
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #167 on: December 29, 2010, 07:39:04 AM »
This is the current batch; 80% hydration, 15/85 Semola to Manitoba.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 30449
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #168 on: December 29, 2010, 07:41:55 AM »
This is the current batch; 80% hydration, 15/85 Semola to Manitoba.

Matt,

Your dough in your current batch does look nice!   :)

Norma

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2644
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #169 on: December 29, 2010, 10:31:00 AM »
I have some questions regarding this dough:

1. I do not remember the crust being very tangy (if at all) when I was in Rome, yet from the Pizzeria Bosco videos posted here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12605.msg121586.html#msg121586 the dough has massive fermentation bubbles and looks way, way overblown. It the goal to get the super strength/gluten development without the starter/yeast turning it into sourdough over the course of 48 or more hours?

2. What is the stage I should be looking for when mixing: when the slack batter becomes almost stiff enough to become a cohesive dough? In my KA, that may be over 10 minutes - which I am hesitantly questioning as too much mixing.

3. Is it standard practice to par-bake and then top, no matter what the ingredient? (Obviously mozz will go on later to avoid excessive browning.)

John

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline Matthew

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2516
  • Location: Oakville, Ontario
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #170 on: December 29, 2010, 11:24:12 AM »
I have some questions regarding this dough:

1. I do not remember the crust being very tangy (if at all) when I was in Rome, yet from the Pizzeria Bosco videos posted here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12605.msg121586.html#msg121586 the dough has massive fermentation bubbles and looks way, way overblown. It the goal to get the super strength/gluten development without the starter/yeast turning it into sourdough over the course of 48 or more hours?

2. What is the stage I should be looking for when mixing: when the slack batter becomes almost stiff enough to become a cohesive dough? In my KA, that may be over 10 minutes - which I am hesitantly questioning as too much mixing.

3. Is it standard practice to par-bake and then top, no matter what the ingredient? (Obviously mozz will go on later to avoid excessive browning.)

John

John,
The tang will be relative to the amount of starter used as well as the relative sourness of the starter/mother dough.  There are a few starters out there that hardly impart any flavor at all & their only job is leavening.  I know that Gabriele uses a mother dough but I don't think that Massimo from Bosco does. 

The way I mix is by holding back 20% of the formula water & then adding it once the gluten has been moderately developed.  The dough becomes extremely wet & losses its shape relatively quickly.  The idea is to continue to mix until it comes together as a single mass.  Not an easy feat using a planetary mixer as the dough will overheat fairly quickly.  To combat this use cold (4 deg) water & cold flour.  To shelter your yeast from the cold water blend it with the flour.  Once I am satisfied with the mix I do a series of rigeneri at 15 minute intervals to dry the dough out a bit.

Par baking is standard practice as is starting the baking on the bottom shelf & then moving to the upper oven shelf.  A good cheese to use is treccia which is basically fresh mozzarella with a much lower water content.  The other advantage of using a treccia is that it can be pulled apart in stringy strands.

Matt

Offline Jose L. Piedra

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 404
  • Location: Montreal, QC
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #171 on: December 29, 2010, 12:21:43 PM »
Matt: Do you have any thoughts on the low amount of salt in the RAI recipe? If I understand correctly, less salt means faster yeast action. So I'm thinking that maybe the concept here is for all of the fermentation to take place in the refigerator, thus enabling the person at home to just take the dough out of the fridge and use it without spending another several hours bringing it to room temp. If I'm right, presumably the rationale is that this would be both more convient for the average viewer in terms of time, and moreover that when cold the dough would be a lot easier for the average viewer with little technique or practice to handle without ruining it.

John: I suppose a lot depends on technique, flour, ovens, etc- but if you do parbake, beware of uncontrolled oven spring and bubbling. A few weeks back I tried a parbake with this one dough I made and within about 4 minutes it looked like some kind of geological scale model of a hill formation or something. (Somehow I still managed to sauce and top the pie and salvage it). I have also experienced deflation of a par-baked dough upon being topped and have heard similar accounts from others, although I think (at least, in my case) that with adequate gluten formation it shouldn't be a problem.

JLP   

Offline Matthew

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2516
  • Location: Oakville, Ontario
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #172 on: December 29, 2010, 12:49:41 PM »
Matt: Do you have any thoughts on the low amount of salt in the RAI recipe? If I understand correctly, less salt means faster yeast action. So I'm thinking that maybe the concept here is for all of the fermentation to take place in the refigerator, thus enabling the person at home to just take the dough out of the fridge and use it without spending another several hours bringing it to room temp. If I'm right, presumably the rationale is that this would be both more convient for the average viewer in terms of time, and moreover that when cold the dough would be a lot easier for the average viewer with little technique or practice to handle without ruining it.

JLP   

Most definitely.  I think that the formula is a universal one that can be adapted by the masses.  A more experienced pizza make can modify the formula to suit his/her regimen.  As far as the parbaking goes, you are right.  I personally only parbake when making a margherita so that the cheese doesn't burn.  With all other types I put the cheese on the bottom.

Matt

Offline Matthew

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2516
  • Location: Oakville, Ontario
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #173 on: December 29, 2010, 03:27:40 PM »
The finished product & of course a couple of boule's for good measure.

Matt

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 30449
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
  • Always working and looking for new information!
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #174 on: December 29, 2010, 03:37:11 PM »
The finished product & of course a couple of boule's for good measure.

Matt

Matt,

Your crumb structure looks fantastic!  ;D  I would have liked to try a slice. 

Norma

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline Matthew

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2516
  • Location: Oakville, Ontario
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #175 on: December 29, 2010, 03:47:12 PM »
Matt,

Your crumb structure looks fantastic!  ;D  I would have liked to try a slice. 

Norma

Come on over, It's only 672 miles away.  Take the US-15s & you'll be here in 7 hours & 39 minutes ;D

Matt

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2644
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #176 on: December 29, 2010, 04:00:25 PM »
Jose and Matt - Thanks very much for the guidance. I have a game plan for my next bake this weekend. The starter I am using was cultivated naturally, and is very mild. 30 hours in and there was no noticeable tang in my above pizzas, so I think I will be set for the 48 hour ferment.

BTW - Many of the skills/techniques I learned from the Tartine Bread book are congruent and applicable with this style of pizza. Very exciting, and very satisfying to make.

John

Offline Jet_deck

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 3062
  • Location: Corpus Christi, Texas
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #177 on: December 29, 2010, 04:02:15 PM »
They look as good if not better than any pics I have seen from Pizzarium.
Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends

Offline Jose L. Piedra

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 404
  • Location: Montreal, QC
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #178 on: December 29, 2010, 11:16:40 PM »
I think Matt's pies pretty much speak for themselves at this point. Concerning the loaves, Iíll say theyíre truly epic in their enormity- the centre, if cut properly, seems like it could yield sandwich slices as big as pizzas :-D

Here's the TL;DR write-up of my most recent experiment, to be followed by pics.

Approx. 85% hydration. I described the formula and process above. I originally planned to take it out of the fridge after 24 hours, but circumstance intervened and it wound up staying there for over 40, following which it sat at room temp for 4 more. Boy, was that dough ever soft. So soft, in fact, that I didn't feel comfortable handling it- but it turned out to be quite strong, and I really didn't need to treat it with kid gloves the way I did. It even sprung back in the pan a little bit (something I could have easily fixed, but didnít for fear of doing harm).

Here's something I learned the hard way today: when transferring the dough, don't stretch it longer than the pan. It is a lot easier to fit a slightly undersized dough to the pan than a slightly oversized one; the latter situation is really awkward to deal with. I wound up having to push dough from the end to the center with my fingertips. This caused a few huge bubbles to form on the way there, with results I'll show in the pics.

Anyways, once formed it was lightly topped (mozz, onion and hot pepper rings, and a few dollops of crushed tomato) and then baked on a stone on the low rack at 500 for about 12 minutes. The resulting pizza had an incredibly light and airy crumb. It was like eating a cloud. The pics, by themselves, donít and canít convey just how open and delicate it was. Indeed, some slices went past the point of overkill in this respect, in their mouthfeel giving the sensory impression of being hollow between top and bottom.

Unfortunately, this pie was underbaked in an odd, uneven way (the white on the cornicone isnít camera over-exposure). I doubt it could have been left in the oven any longer, since about half of the total surface area (both top and bottom) was browned perfectly and presumably would have burned if left in longer. The areas that were browned had a wafer-thin crispy outer veneer with an outstanding toasty flavor. The white areas were like wafer-thin, partly dried-out raw dough and tasted that way. Not cool at all. Provisionally, Iím going to blame the flour; if anybody can think of another cause, please let me know.

Conclusion: Making an 85% hydration dough without creating a federal disaster area in my kitchen: win. Crumb: epic win (I donít see how it could possibly be any better in terms of what I want). Overall taste and appearance: fail (Iíve been making much tastier pizzas than this one lately). 2/3.

I welcome any and all suggestions, comments, and above all critique (if I'm doing something blatantly wrong, feel absolutely free to say so; if anything, I'd be disappointed if you didn't tell me about it).

JLP



Offline Jose L. Piedra

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 404
  • Location: Montreal, QC
Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #179 on: December 29, 2010, 11:18:37 PM »
The second pic shows what you can expect if you get any really big bubbles in your dough.

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


 

wordpress