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Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #180 on: December 29, 2010, 11:20:12 PM »
Another brace of pics:

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #181 on: December 29, 2010, 11:21:24 PM »
One more:

Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #182 on: December 29, 2010, 11:35:51 PM »
Jose,

Your recent experiment looks amazing!  ;D  I can imagine how your pie must have tasted like a cloud, by your pictures.  If you donít mind telling, what formula did you use in terms of salt, oil IDY and flour?  I can see you obtain great results with using 85% hydration in the formula.  I found it interesting that you also baked on the stone, like the last pie I tried.  Do you think baking directly on the stone does give better results?

Good job!  :)

Norma

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #183 on: December 30, 2010, 12:22:59 AM »
Norma: what are the odds that the both of us would achieve the much sought-after cloud-like crumb structure within 24 hours of one another. Great minds think alike... :-D

Seriously, here's my formula:


Flour: 100% (Canadian Robin Hood BF- pretty nasty stuff)
Water: 85%
IDY: 0.3%
Salt: 2%
Oil: 3.65%

The calculated TF was .12 (it was just easier to formulate the dough that way for the pan I used- I was expecting it to turn out more like a Grandma pie in the thickness department, although with the light toppings, it sprung up way further than I thought it would)

I put the flour into the mixer, then the water, IDY, salt, and oil, in that order, and then ran it for about 10 minutes until the ball cleaned the bottom. Took it out, hand-kneaded for about 3 minutes, then let it sit for 25 minutes. Hand kneaded it again for under 4 minutes, rested another 25, hand-kneaded another 3, then put it in the fridge.

It then sat in the fridge for over 40 hours, and was warmed at room temp for about 4 more.

As to the stone: I think that if I try it again I'll put the stone in the middle rack, since part of the bottom was browning ahead of the the top. Now that I think about it, if it hadn't been on the bottom rack I might have been able to keep it in the oven for a few minutes longer. I might even get rid of the stone altogether in the future. I might also crank the oven up to 550. A few more experiments are in order here.


JLP

Offline Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #184 on: December 30, 2010, 05:50:13 AM »
They look as good if not better than any pics I have seen from Pizzarium.

Thanks JD, quite the compliment.   Gabriele is the true master; he is to Pizza Romana what Enzo Cacialli was to Pizza Napoletana.  My best friend & his wife were over & both said that it was the best pizza & bread that they had ever eaten.  I sent the rest home with them so that I have an excuse to make another batch.  The cremini & truffle oil pizza was a huge hit even at the last party.

Matt
« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 06:01:48 AM by Matthew »

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Offline Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #185 on: December 30, 2010, 05:56:30 AM »
Jose,
Great job bud, what didn't you like about the flavor?  I think that once you find a high quality flour you'll be alot happier.  Look for something completely free of any additives except for enrichment which is mandatory for flour made & sold in Canada.  If you can add a little Italian Semola as well it add to the softness.

Matt

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #186 on: December 30, 2010, 07:32:19 AM »
Jose - Beautiful crumb! That is exactly what I am after.

I am not an expert, but concerning the under done spots - since your pie is such a high hydration, would it make sense to cook it at a lower temp (450-475) for a longer period of time to dry out the dough? I have no idea if it would work. You might even want to place the pan on a heated stone to help with evaporation.

John

Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #187 on: December 30, 2010, 07:46:33 AM »
Norma: what are the odds that the both of us would achieve the much sought-after cloud-like crumb structure within 24 hours of one another. Great minds think alike... :-D

Seriously, here's my formula:


Flour: 100% (Canadian Robin Hood BF- pretty nasty stuff)
Water: 85%
IDY: 0.3%
Salt: 2%
Oil: 3.65%

The calculated TF was .12 (it was just easier to formulate the dough that way for the pan I used- I was expecting it to turn out more like a Grandma pie in the thickness department, although with the light toppings, it sprung up way further than I thought it would)

I put the flour into the mixer, then the water, IDY, salt, and oil, in that order, and then ran it for about 10 minutes until the ball cleaned the bottom. Took it out, hand-kneaded for about 3 minutes, then let it sit for 25 minutes. Hand kneaded it again for under 4 minutes, rested another 25, hand-kneaded another 3, then put it in the fridge.

It then sat in the fridge for over 40 hours, and was warmed at room temp for about 4 more.

As to the stone: I think that if I try it again I'll put the stone in the middle rack, since part of the bottom was browning ahead of the the top. Now that I think about it, if it hadn't been on the bottom rack I might have been able to keep it in the oven for a few minutes longer. I might even get rid of the stone altogether in the future. I might also crank the oven up to 550. A few more experiments are in order here.


JLP

Jose,

I donít know what the odds are that both of us would achieve about the same much sought-after cloud-like crumb structure within 24 hours, but the odds must have been slim.   ;D
Thanks for your formula and what protocol you used.  I am also going to try some more experiments.
 
I will put a link here to the pizza I made on Tuesday at Reply 196  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg121720.html#msg121720 and the following replies, since we are all trying to make the same kind of pizza.

These videos helped me learn how a pizza in teglia dough should look.
pizzeriabosco YouTube videos:



I think if anyone is interested, this link should go though all the videos of pizzeriabosco if you keep watching.  In the one video it shows pizzeriabosco buying Caputo flour.



Does anyone know where pizzeriabosco pizzeria is located?

Norma

Offline ninapizza23

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #188 on: December 30, 2010, 01:42:27 PM »
JLP,

it looks like your pizza should have cooked longer. As soon as you see that initial spring and a little toasting in the bottom, move your tray up and reduce the heat and let it cook for about 20min.
You can also cook this type of dough on the stone without the tray if you have a good rectangular peel and long. As soon as I have a little bit of time I will send you a pix.
Massimo from pizzeria Bosco is a friend of mine and a very honest and hard working guy. He won some Campionato di Pizza. He makes some round classic pizzas also that are really exceptional.
Keep trying and you'll get there soon.

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #189 on: December 30, 2010, 04:28:50 PM »
Thanks for the kind words and suggestions everybody.

Matt: What I didn't like about the flavour was that it was just too bland due to the underbake. Had it browned evenly I think it would have been outstanding. I'm definitely going to get rid of the flour in the future. I'm looking into the Milanaise brand, which is a locally-milled premium organic flour with very widespread distribution around here. If you know or have heard anything about it, let me know.

John: The idea of a longer bake time at a lower temp does make sense- but on the other hand I worry about it drying out too much and turning too crunchy. I guess putting it to experiment some time in the future is the only way I'll find out for sure.

Norma: Bosco is located in Tempio Pausiana, in Sardinia.

Nina: Moving it up after the initial oven spring sounds very sensible. With respect to reducing the temp and baking it longer, I'm open to trying that, as I've said already. But do you think it might also work if I went in the opposite direction and baked it at 550 instead of 500? (The reason I ask is because I noticed in one of the Bosco videos, his oven was set at 300 C., which translates to 572 F).

JLP

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Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #190 on: December 30, 2010, 04:42:11 PM »
Jose,

I am not nina, but I did bake my last pizza on the stone at around 565 degrees F and that method seemed to work for me at market.  I think like you do, that a shorter bake would give a moister crumb.

Norma

Offline Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #191 on: December 30, 2010, 05:32:38 PM »
Jose,
FWIW I have a 48" gas stove & I did my entire bake on the bottom rack at 550 & got very nice browning on the bottom as well as the top.  I do occasionally move to the upper rack for the last few minutes of baking at the same temperature.  Lowering the temperature will increase baking time which will/can lead to a hard crust.  I think that the ideal pizza romana should have a slightly crispy exterior & a soft light interior.  Unlike others, I don't claim to be the expert/authoritarian on pizza romana & all my findings are based on personal experience & not advice sought from experts.

Matt
« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 05:36:13 PM by Matthew »

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #192 on: December 30, 2010, 07:26:07 PM »
FWIW I have a 48" gas stove & I did my entire bake on the bottom rack at 550 & got very nice browning on the bottom as well as the top.

Matt - If you do not mind me asking, what is the current TF you are working with, and about how long does the bake take at that temp?

John

Offline Jose L. Piedra

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #193 on: December 30, 2010, 08:12:03 PM »
I think that the ideal pizza romana should have a slightly crispy exterior & a soft light interior.

Based on what I did, I imagine that at the 80%-90% hydration range they come out that way naturally if baked properly. Pete-zza had an explanation of the science of why high-hydration doughs tend to come out crispy somewhere, but I can't remember what it was.

JLP

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #194 on: December 30, 2010, 08:31:03 PM »
Based on what I did, I imagine that at the 80%-90% hydration range they come out that way naturally if baked properly. Pete-zza had an explanation of the science of why high-hydration doughs tend to come out crispy somewhere, but I can't remember what it was.
 

JLP,

See Reply 113 earlier in this thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg120565.html#msg120565 but see also Tom Lehmann's PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=45476#p45476.

Peter

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Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #195 on: December 30, 2010, 10:04:03 PM »
I started another dough today and am going to use a little bit of a different approach.  I made a smaller dough and have left the poolish part ferment.  I am now going to let the poolish in the refrigerator for at least a day and then mix the poolish into the final dough.  I then want to let the dough sit at room temperature to proof for at least another day.  I donít know how this approach will work.  I decided to try this approach since pizzanapoletana posted this at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1073.msg9752.html#msg9752 about making a poolish first and putting it into the refrigerator for 10-11 hours.  I donít know how will work out because I plan on letting the dough sit at room temperature for about a day.  I plan on baking this in my home oven.

This is the formula I am using.  If anyone thinks my IDY is too much for this formula, let me know.  I did put part of the IDY in the poolish part of the formula.

Sorry, I have the wrong date on the formula.

Norma

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #196 on: December 31, 2010, 01:03:26 AM »
Folks, coming from a guy that likes to generalize and guestimate, it's near impossible to say that one baking temp/time is better or worse.  It's highly recipe dependent (protein of flour vs hydration ratio & oil), oven dependant, and even altitude dependant.   As Norma has done, I think it's a good idea to report the recipe we've used and what bake temp & time works for us and then others can use those as guidelines.  Even then, one oven can bake drastically different from another.   For example, in my Professional Viking oven it seems like all the heat comes from the above burner.  That is, I can not detect heat emminating from the lower vents.   So along with living at high altitudes, my baking temps, time, and protocol would be inherently different than others.   

The important factors I find helpful to know is the approximate hydration ratio relative to type of flour (blend) used, oil %, and overall bake time.   I can then use those as general guidelines.

Too high of a temp and too short of a bake time relative to a wet dough can yield a soggy soft and partially baked crust.   Too low of a temp and too long of a bake time relative to a drier dough can yield an overly dry crumb and a crust that is too crunchy.   I would think that finding the proper balance between baking time and how hydrated the dough is to yield a moist and tender crust would take some trial and error. 

Anyway tomorrow, I will attempt to make my first pizza romana.  Wish me luck. 8)

Chau
« Last Edit: December 31, 2010, 06:28:12 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #197 on: December 31, 2010, 05:43:11 AM »
Matt - If you do not mind me asking, what is the current TF you are working with, and about how long does the bake take at that temp?

John

I used about 800g per 11.25 x 17 teglia which translates to just under .15.  I didn't really time the bake but I would say about 20 minutes.  I find that using convection mode gives you nice browning on the top without having to move the pans to a higher shelf.

Matt

Offline Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #198 on: December 31, 2010, 05:52:34 AM »
Folks, coming from a guy that likes to generalize and guestimate, it's near impossible to say that one baking temp/time is better or worse.  It's highly recipe dependent (protein of flour vs hydration ratio & oil), oven dependant, and even altitude dependant.   As Norma has done, I think it's a good idea to report the recipe we've used and what bake temp & time works for us and then others can use those as guidelines.  Even then, one oven can bake drastically different from another.   For example, in my Professional Viking oven it seems like all the heat comes from the above burner.  That is, I can not detect heat eminating from the lower vents.   So along with living at high altitudes, my baking temps, time, and protocol would be inherently different than others.   

The important factors I find helpful to know is the approximate hydration ratio relative to type of flour (blend) used, hydration ratio, oil %, and overall bake time.   I can then use those as general guidelines.

Too high of a temp and too short of a bake time relative to a wet dough can yield a wet and partially baked crust.   Too low of a temp and too long of a bake time relative to a drier dough can yield a dry crumb and a crust that is too crunchy.   I would think that finding the proper balance between baking time and how hydrated the dough is to yield a moist and tender crust would take some trial and error. 

Tomorrow, I will attempt to make my first pizza romana.  Wish me luck. 8)

Chau

I agree 100%.  In my amateur opinion, the most important thing that will make or break this dough is to properly develop the gluten.  This dough should be a mass & not a batter.  It should undergo the exact same level of gluten development as any other bread/pizza dough.  How you choose to do this is up to you.  When all else fails; use your God given tools which work just as good as any mechanical ones. 

Matt
« Last Edit: December 31, 2010, 05:54:07 AM by Matthew »

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #199 on: December 31, 2010, 10:51:46 AM »
I used about 800g per 11.25 x 17 teglia which translates to just under .15.  I didn't really time the bake but I would say about 20 minutes.  I find that using convection mode gives you nice browning on the top without having to move the pans to a higher shelf.

Matt

Thanks Matt - I believe I have the 36" version of your oven, so I am going to try this temp/position and convection for my bake tomorrow.

John

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