Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => Sicilian Style => Topic started by: Jose L. Piedra on January 07, 2010, 01:39:23 PM

Title: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 07, 2010, 01:39:23 PM
I've been intrigued by this place for quite some time and, given the recent upsurge of interest around here concerning pan-baked pizza as it exists in Italy, I thought I'd start a thread about it. Pizzarium is a super-small, hole-in-the-wall place in Rome specializing in the Roman style of pan-baked pizza (pizza in teglia alla Romana). As I understand it, this amounts to a Focaccia made with Manitoba flour (whatever that is) that is hydrated to the extreme, mixed and made manageable with some rather esoteric techniques, topped in highly imaginative and free-form ways, and then baked in an electric oven. The end result has an extremely open crumb structure and is said to be light and very easy to digest in spite of its thickness (which to the eye appears to be about .14 or so). One of Pizzarium's claims to distinction is use of a local natural starter that is supposed to have been going for a hundred years. Overall, the shop and its owner, Gabriele Bonci, seem to have roughly the same public profile and legendary rep in European pizzadom as the likes of DiFara's and Dom DeMarco enjoy in North America. French reviewers seem particularly ecstastic about his pies, referring to him as "the Emperor", and almost every review I've read in any language claims that his pizzas are by far the finest expressions of the style (a claim that has also been made by Marco- whose cred is about as solid as it gets- here on this forum- see reply #3 in the following thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2627.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2627.0.html)).

I've never been there, and I hope I'm not getting sucked into some sort of emerging hipster romance/mythology here- but I get the urgent sense that this place is some sort of holy shrine of flatbread, a Vatican City of pizza with Gabriele as its Pope. I don't think it's just hype; the interviews and video footage I've seen of him suggest a a guy with an awesome theoretical and practical mastery of dough (check him out as he beats a wild mass of batter into submission as a serviceable dough ball like he's doing it in his sleep: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzgjXuq1ztI&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzgjXuq1ztI&feature=related)).

Anyways, if anybody here who has actually been there could chime in with a review and a detailed description of what his pies are like, I'd really appreciate it. For that matter, if anybody here can elaborate on what pizza alla Romana in general is supposed to be like in terms of the characteristics it ought to have, I'd really appreciate it too.

If enough people are interested, maybe this thread could eventually evolve into a reverse-engineering project like the ones on DiFara's and Patsy's in the NY forum (note that some recipes that have been here for years apparently originated with Gabriele himself, which probably makes them as solid a starting point as can be).

-JLP
   
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on January 07, 2010, 05:34:08 PM
Hi Jose,
These are the results of my 1st effort with Marco's recommendation of 15/85 semola/strong bakers flour @77% hydration.  The poolish was fermented at 64 degrees for 24 hours.  (pictured below)

I made it again last weekend,  this time I used 40/60 semola/strong bakers @ 75% hydration & the poolish was placed in the refrigerator for 24hours.   Unfortunately I did not snap any pics.

They both were excellent.

I will be in Rome for a couple of days in March & will definitely pay Gabriele a visit.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 07, 2010, 08:23:24 PM
Matt,

Those look very good. In fact, there's a place around here that aspires to be a Roman-style pizza shop and I can tell you that the crumb structure of your pies already looks better than most of theirs do. Marco's formula seems to be gold. I hope you post a review of Pizzarium when you get back from Rome.

-JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 07, 2010, 10:13:49 PM
Hi Jose,
Good thread topic.  Here is a pic and spec for Manitoba.  It appears that because they do not allow Bromate this flour has ascorbic acid added.  Here is a link for Italian bread flours and their W strength
http://www.pane.appuntidicucina.it/ricetta/farinemolinospadoni (http://www.pane.appuntidicucina.it/ricetta/farinemolinospadoni),  I hope I inserted the link correctly.  It may come in handy for reverse engineering.

Manitoba   
Of America - 0
W 310 / 340
P / L 0.60 / 0.75
 
Gluten% 12.5 / 13.5
Ash% 0.52 / 0.58


 
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 07, 2010, 11:11:18 PM
Hi Bob1,

Thanks for that info. I get the impression that the Manitoba flour, which is made entirely of hard wheat, is pretty much the same as most of the bread flour made on this continent (which is also made of hard wheat). The protein rating suggests as much.

To complicate things further, in the rigenero thread Nina suggests that most of the pizza Romana is made with a specialized flour- I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that it's a mix of Manitoba and a softer flour...Just guessing, but guessing is the first step towards learning...

-JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: widespreadpizza on January 08, 2010, 12:32:17 AM
Jose,  good call on the thread,  I as well am very happy to see what the change of seasons in the US has done for the interest level in the pan baked pizza.  When I set out on my path a little while back,  this is where I started,  but is not the Marco recipe you speak of I don't think.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1073.0.html reply #7

it's similar but not the same.  This speaks of fine semoilina flour.   It does work and does come out amazingly well,  although I do prefer doing the poolish at room temp so far.  -marc
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 08, 2010, 09:12:45 AM
When I set out on my path a little while back,  this is where I started,  but is not the Marco recipe you speak of I don't think.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1073.0.html reply

Actually, it's one of the three he gave. That one was for what he defined as a "cross-mix of Sicilian and Roman pizza" (100% Semolina). In http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1690.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1690.0.html), reply 3 he gave an alternate version defined as "Roman revisited with a Sicilian accent" (15% Semolina); finally, in http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2627.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2627.0.html), reply 3 he gave yet another alternate version for a straight Roman pizza (100% "Manitoba").

Jeff V and Matt subsequently tweaked some of these recipes in their own endeavours as well.

Quote
I do prefer doing the poolish at room temp so far.

How long did you leave it out for ?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 08, 2010, 09:14:57 AM
Jose,
When I read threads in Italian a lot of recipes state a mix between a strong Manitoba and a softer durum, which I believe is a byproduct of making Semolina, and is much finer.  I always have some in the house. some recipes also include potato to help it to remain soft the next day.  I think for our purposes we should forget about the potato part for now.  Widespread you are correct about Marcos recipe and there is work being done with that on "Pizza in Teglia"  Matt has gotten great results.  Matt developed an Excel spread sheet and we have refined it a bit.  The info below shows what is on the sheet.  If you put in the pan size and Thickness factor it will calculate the rest.  If any one wants a copy PM me, and I will email it to you.  
One other thought on the Manitoba.  Even though it is similar to bread flour it also has ascorbic acid added to it. How much strength does the ascorbic acid add.  Would a KASL at 14.5% be a good substitute?



Pizza in Teglia Spreadsheet: (grams)                  
                  
Pan Size      Sq In   G Per Ball     Thick Fctr   Balls Qu   Total Weight
16.00   16.00   256.00   1088.26       0.15                  2.00      2176.51
                  
                  
                  
   Bakers %   Total G   Semola   Bread Flour      
         40.00%   60.00%      
                  
Flour    100.00%   1188.05   475.22   712.83      
Water    75.00%   891.04            
IDY   0.70%   8.32            
Salt   2.50%   29.70            
EVOO   5.00%   59.40            
                  
Total   183.20%   2176.51            
                  
                  
Poolish:      Semola   Bread Flour         
Flour   891.04   356.42   534.62         
Water   891.04               
IDY   2.25               
Total   1784.32               
                  
Next Day:      Semola   Bread Flour         
Flour   297.01   118.81   178.21         
Water   0.00               
IDY   6.07               
Salt   29.70               
EVOO   59.40               
Total   392.19


Thanks,

Bob1               
 
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 08, 2010, 10:09:56 AM
Jose,
When I read threads in Italian a lot of recipes state a mix between a strong Manitoba and a softer durum, which I believe is a byproduct of making Semolina, and is much finer.  I always have some in the house.

If Manitoba flour is what I think it is I can readily understand why they dumb it down a bit- but I wonder why they specifically do so with Durum flour. In my own case, ever since I got started with pizza I've been dumbing down the super-strong Canadian bread flour I have to use with Canadian AP flour for all my pizzas, and I get the feeling out of this that I'm doing so for the same reason. Does the Durum flour do something AP can't ?

Quote
some recipes also include potato to help it to remain soft the next day.  I think for our purposes we should forget about the potato part for now.
 

Agreed. Just the other weekend I was reading a bunch of reviews of a high-end, neo-Sicilian place in NYC that uses potato in their doughs, and almost every reviewer said that the pies, while excellent, were gutbusters they could barely finish. Potato starch will do that. Another common theme in the reviews was that the pies tended to turn intolerably soft and even soggy in a matter of minutes. I'm thinking that if potato will keep the pie soft the next day, it'll make it mushy 15 minutes after being taken out of the oven. I'm just speculating, but this isn't something I personally want to learn about the hard way.

-JLP

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 08, 2010, 11:25:18 AM
Jose,
I am not quite sure what you mean by dumbing down the flours.  I think all the flours act differently when combined with others.  A bakery near me makes what they call semolina Italian bread and it is very different than others, and very good.  In the Rigenero thread I brought up some questions about using certain flours for the preferment and others for the final dough.  It seems to me that could play a crucial role.  I found this link
Code: [Select]
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Durum+doubles+for+bread+and+pasta.-a054240397 and I also added the write up at the bottom.    Since I never tried the Pizzarium's product I can only go by the pictures.  I think as I pursue this I will start with Marcos recipe that Matt is using with "Pizza in Teglia" and experiment with this link.  What do you guys think for this as a starting point?

Thanks,

Bob1


http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Durum+doubles+for+bread+and+pasta.-a054240397
Until now, bread flour composed of more than 25% durum did not produce the light and airy loaves most consumers desire. But with a modified baking procedure, 1 lb loaves of bread containing 60% durum flour baked up with nearly the same volume as bread from 100% hard red spring wheat (HRSW) flour. The scientists have also baked bread with 60% soft wheat pastry flour and 40% HRSW flour with excellent results.

HRSW flour is noted for its high gluten strength. Gluten accounts for large bread loaf volume because it imparts flexibility and strength to the dough as fermentation makes the dough rise and retain gas. To make durum bread, the scientists modified the sponge-dough method by incorporating the weaker gluten strength durum flour at a 60% level plus 10% HRSW flour in the

sponge.

Generally the sponge requires stronger gluten flour because of extended mixing and longer fermentation. The dough stagedough stage

a stage in the maturation of a cereal crop when the seeds are soft and immature but fully formed. This is the optimum time to convert the crop into hay or ensilage.
..... Click the link for more information. contained the remaining 30% HRSW flour. Following baking, bread made with 60% durum flour was similar in loaf volume to bread made with 100% HRSW flour.

During the sponge development stage, commercial bakers mix 70% of the flour with water and yeast and let the mixture ferment up to 3 hr. During the dough stage of development, the sponge is remixed with water, sugar, nonfat dry milkNoun 1. nonfat dry milk - dehydrated skimmed milk
dried milk, dry milk, milk powder, powdered milk - dehydrated milk
..... Click the link for more information., shortening, salt and the remaining flour. Following additional fermentation and proof times, the dough is then baked 
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 08, 2010, 12:37:39 PM
Jose,
I am not quite sure what you mean by dumbing down the flours. 

Sorry for creating confusion. By "dumbing down the flour" I meant, in my own case, that I have to cut the 100% hard wheat bread flour I use with a softer flour to get good results with it. By itself, the bread flour yields a dough that chars excessively to the point of burning outright at just 550, and otherwise comes out tough, chewy, and even hard. I've read a few things online that imply that Manitoba flour, when used by itself, runs into similar problems. The Roman pizza is supposed to be so soft you can cut it with scissors. I'm thinking that maybe the Italians incorporate some Durum flour into their formulas for the same reason I incorporate AP into mine (I can cut my Sicilians with scissors and in fact do so regularly).

I hope you do a write-up of your results with Marco's recipe, which seems excellent and has yielded proven results on this forum. If all goes well I'm going to be trying one of them myself on Sunday (details to follow).

-JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on January 08, 2010, 12:41:05 PM
Sorry for creating confusion. By "dumbing down the flour" I meant, in my own case, that I have to cut the 100% hard wheat bread flour I use with a softer flour to get good results with it. By itself, the bread flour yields a dough that chars excessively to the point of burning outright at just 550, and otherwise comes out tough, chewy, and even hard. I've read a few things online that imply that Manitoba flour, when used by itself, runs into similar problems. The Roman pizza is supposed to be so soft you can cut it with scissors. I'm thinking that maybe the Italians incorporate some Durum flour into their formulas for the same reason I incorporate AP into mine (I can cut my Sicilians with scissors and in fact do so regularly).

I hope you do a write-up of your results with Marco's recipe, which seems excellent and has yielded proven results on this forum. If all goes well I'm going to be trying one of them myself on Sunday (details to follow).

-JLP


Jose,
I used scissors to cut into mine.  Both doughs 15/85 (semola/bf) & 40/60 were very similar in characteristic.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 08, 2010, 02:40:17 PM
If all goes well, I'll be trying the following this weekend (adapted from Marco's post in http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2627.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2627.0.html)):

Flour: 100%
Water: 75%
IDY: 0.7%
Salt: 2.5%
Oil: 5%

For my pan (13" length, 9.25" height), and with a projected TF of .13, this amounts to (figures do not exactly correspond to percentages due to rounding for convenience):

Flour: 242 gr.
Water: 6.375 oz. (about 74.5%)
IDY: .56 tea.
Salt: 1 tea. (2.3%)
Oil: 2.75 tea. (about 5.1%)

This total will be split up as follows:

For the poolish:

Flour: 180 gr.
Water: 6.375 oz (100%)
IDY: 0.16 tea.

For the rest:

Flour: 62 gr.
IDY: 0.4 tea.
All of the salt and oil.

The original recipe stipulated 100% Manitoba flour, but all I have is Robin Hood bread flour and some generic Canadian AP flour. I'm thinking of using a mix of about 60% BF and 40% AP, but it's an open question at this point. The poolish, mix, and rise times, as well as the poolish temperature are all open questions at this point as well. Marco recommends 10-11 hours in the fridge for the poolish, but to do that and have the pie in the oven by the time I plan to bake it (around 3:30ish Sunday afternoon) I'd have to make it around midnight before. Not convenient at all. I think I'll go for 24 hours in the fridge or so. Additionally, Marco didn't provide any baseline mix times in his post. Later on, I'm going to browse through the other threads and check out what others have done; in the meanwhile, any and all pointers, opinions, and experiences are welcomed and urgently needed. Also, if anybody should spot any epic miscalculations in the figures above, it would help a lot if you'd let me know (I came up with those while multi-tasking with about 7 other windows open).

-JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 08, 2010, 03:04:31 PM
Jose,
I'll let Matt or some of the other people who have worked with this formula comment on fermentation time.  I would only like to add that you may want to try Gabriele's method of flattening the dough and then rolling it up in log form to rise before panning it.

Thanks,

Bob
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on January 08, 2010, 03:07:21 PM
Jose,
Almost finished up a batch of dough using a starter, a couple more regeneri cycles & then fermentation @ 68 degrees for about 46 hours.  My formula was as follows:


Flour (100%):    753.33 g  |  26.57 oz | 1.66 lbs             
Water (80%):    602.66 g  |  21.26 oz | 1.33 lbs             
Salt (3%):    22.6 g | 0.8 oz | 0.05 lbs | 6.65 tsp | 2.22 tbsp             
Strutto (6.67%):    50.25 g | 1.77 oz | 0.11 lbs | 11.17 tsp | 3.72 tbsp             
Total (189.67%):   1428.84 g | 50.4 oz | 3.15 lbs | TF = 0.16             

Preferment:                
Flour:    46.29 g | 1.63 oz | 0.1 lbs             
Water:    39.44 g | 1.39 oz | 0.09 lbs             
Total:    85.73 g | 3.02 oz | 0.19 lbs             

Final Dough:               
               
Flour:                  707.04 g | 24.94 oz | 1.56 lbs             
Water:                  563.23 g | 19.87 oz | 1.24 lbs             
Salt:                  22.6 g | 0.8 oz | 0.05 lbs | 6.65 tsp | 2.22 tbsp             
Preferment:    85.73 g | 3.02 oz | 0.19 lbs             
Strutto:                 50.25 g | 1.77 oz | 0.11 lbs | 11.17 tsp | 3.72 tbsp             
Total:                 1428.84 g | 50.4 oz | 3.15 lbs  | TF = 0.16             

By the way, are you in Canada?

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on January 08, 2010, 03:12:29 PM
If all goes well, I'll be trying the following this weekend (adapted from Marco's post in http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2627.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2627.0.html)):

Flour: 100%
Water: 75%
IDY: 0.7%
Salt: 2.5%
Oil: 5%

For my pan (13" length, 9.25" height), and with a projected TF of .13, this amounts to (figures do not exactly correspond to percentages due to rounding for convenience):

Flour: 242 gr.
Water: 6.375 oz. (about 74.5%)
IDY: .56 tea.
Salt: 1 tea. (2.3%)
Oil: 2.75 tea. (about 5.1%)

This total will be split up as follows:

For the poolish:

Flour: 180 gr.
Water: 6.375 oz (100%)
IDY: 0.16 tea.

For the rest:

Flour: 62 gr.
IDY: 0.4 tea.
All of the salt and oil.

The original recipe stipulated 100% Manitoba flour, but all I have is Robin Hood bread flour and some generic Canadian AP flour. I'm thinking of using a mix of about 60% BF and 40% AP, but it's an open question at this point. The poolish, mix, and rise times, as well as the poolish temperature are all open questions at this point as well. Marco recommends 10-11 hours in the fridge for the poolish, but to do that and have the pie in the oven by the time I plan to bake it (around 3:30ish Sunday afternoon) I'd have to make it around midnight before. Not convenient at all. I think I'll go for 24 hours in the fridge or so. Additionally, Marco didn't provide any baseline mix times in his post. Later on, I'm going to browse through the other threads and check out what others have done; in the meanwhile, any and all pointers, opinions, and experiences are welcomed and urgently needed. Also, if anybody should spot any epic miscalculations in the figures above, it would help a lot if you'd let me know (I came up with those while multi-tasking with about 7 other windows open).

-JLP



Jose,
24 hours for the poolish is absolutely fine.   You'll have to play around with the mix time as it will vary depending on your mixer.  Marco states that you need a spiral mixer to do it properly.  I used my DLX with the roller & scraper which works out just fine; 5 minutes mid speed & 2 minutes low.  Then about 4 rigeneri cycles with 15-20 minute rests.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 08, 2010, 04:37:00 PM
Bob1,

Thanks for the heads-up on the cylinder technique. I saw Gabriele do it in the video but didn't draw the connection.

Matt,

Yes, I'm in Canada (Montreal island, way out in the 'burbs). In the rigenero thread, Nina also stated she had it on good word that a spiral mixer is necessary to do this style right. Oh well- I figure that, even if I don't meet the authentic target, I'll end up with a result that won't be any worse than the fairly average and plain-Jane Sicilian of mine that I would have ended up baking anyways this weekend if not for this experiment.

-JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: widespreadpizza on January 09, 2010, 11:32:37 AM
Some pictures of would have been sicilian style form last night/yesterdays attempt.  I ended up going out to dinner so I just made these into foccacia.  This is the recipie marco provied ,  the 100% fine semolina flour,  just modiifed so that the poolish is done room temp in roughly 8 hours insted of overnight.  Also this is hand mixed in one bowl,  and could not be much easier.  Man is it good.  You might think the crust would be a littles tough chewy with the 100% but it is far from it, tender and light  with an addicting tooth.  -marc
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: scottfsmith on January 09, 2010, 11:50:12 AM
Those look nice marc!  I have been making sicilian/roman pizza lately as well (primarily whole wheat but sometimes white).  In looking for recipes online I found the following quite detailed one on an Italian bboard: http://www.gennarino.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=13622&sid=a0c54744cec40db32b28139c297b9e42 (http://www.gennarino.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=13622&sid=a0c54744cec40db32b28139c297b9e42) .   This recipe has more preparation details than Marcos recipe does.  I am going to try it out but have not yet.  I attempted a translation of it as follows.  If anyone knows Italian perhaps you can give some corrections.  The primary flour is W300/330 which I think is similar to the usual US?  The hydration is around 85%.

Pizza in teglia alla romana

The preparation is laborious but worth it: this is a very special pizza, it melts in your mouth and is digested quickly; it is one of the best mixtures ever tasted.

Equipment
An iron spatula, necessary for those who knead by hand, optional for those who use a mixer.
Two rectangular iron trays (the dough is calibrated to give two trays 40cm).

Ingredients

Phase I
Dry yeast 1g
Water 50g
"Manitoba" flour [for this small amount the type should not matter much] 50g
1 teaspoon sugar

Phase II
W300/330 flour  [similar to typical US flour?] 900 gr 100%
Starter 100g 11%
Water 600g 67%

Phase III
Water 150g 17%
Salt 19g 2%
Seed oil [e.g. canola?] 35g ~ 4%


Comments on the ingredients
Do not frown on reading the presence of seed oil -- too much olive oil weighs the dough and its taste is too noticeable.

The dry yeast in this case behaves better than fresh, but it should be activated first (see the procedure below). The starter is optional but strongly recommended; if you only use dry yeast double the dose (2 grams).

Procedure (for the pizza to be ready Saturday night, begin on Thursday night at 21:00)

In a glass pour 50 grams of warm water at 80F and dissolve the dry yeast. Add 50 grams of flour and a teaspoon of sugar, stir and let rise a quarter of an hour.

Empty the cup into a bowl, add the water of the second phase by controlling the temperature (the dough at this point must measure 66F so we need to use the water at the right temperature to obtain this result; for example, if the ambient temperature is 80F degrees, use cold water at 52F), the starter (if any) and the flour. Stir the mixture briefly to smoothen, and let rest, covered, for 40 minutes.

Build the dough by adding the phase III water little by little (with the mixer, pour in water;  by hand the dough is kneaded on the table and gradually add all water). Finally add the salt, then oil. Shape into a ball, cover and let sit 15 minutes. The dough must be 72F at the end.

Now our aim is to develop strong gluten links. Leaving aside the dough for a quarter of an hour, if kneaded by hand gently pull the dough and fold over into a ball, lifting it gently and not ripping [this is a guess; its some kind of stretch/fold thing]; with the mixer we simply do one slow lap. Cover and wait another quarter of an hour. Do this five times.

Finally we put the dough in a bowl or container, top with a plate or a lid and refrigerate for 36 hours, which should bring us to about 10:00AM Saturday.

The dough is now a mass white sticky bubbly. Flour the table with plenty of flour and spill some flour over the dough. Weigh the dough and divide into two, forming two balls of the same weight. Do not mix up again for any reason;  don't crush, don't deflate, don't rip!

If the dough is well leavened [??], put it back in the fridge always covered and plan to take it out in the late afternoon, otherwise leave out on the table, covered.

Brush the pans with a little oil; then sprinkle the pans with flour, eliminating any excess.

An hour before baking, use a floured board (and hands) and stretch the dough uniformly to the size of the pan. To do so, keep a firm hand and, putting your other hand below the knuckles, pull not using the palm, without tearing and without deflating the dough.  It is a very delicate operation, the most difficult of all in this recipe.

Place the dough on each pan, stretching to take the size of the pan, again without deflating. Cover the pans with a damp cloth or film.

Switch the oven to maximum temperature (550F?) with a pot full of water on the bottom.

Season the pizza just before baking, with your favorite ingredients; finally add a sprinkling of salt and a drizzle of olive oil.  Place the rack close to the flame itself in the oven [?? - not sure at all about this sentence]. If using mozzarella, it should be added 2/3 of the way through, otherwise it will burn before the pizza is cooked.

The cooking time varies but is around 15 minutes with normal ovens.

Delicious!

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 09, 2010, 12:37:54 PM
Made the poolish as per my calculations above. I used cold (but not ice-cold) water and mixed it by hand with a spatula and then, a butterknife. It somehow struck me as too dough-like and not hydrated enough, so I added a bit more water. So much for scientific rigour and precision...Phase 2 should start by noon tomorrow.

@Marc: Those are some fine-looking focaccias. Do you think that crumb would have stood up to the weight of toppings if you had went ahead and made pizzas out of them (e.g. if they had been parbaked and then topped) ?

@scottfsmith: Thanks for that recipe, lots to digest in there.

-JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 09, 2010, 01:02:33 PM
widespreadpizza,

The pictures of the foccacia look delicious.  That is interesting about how you mixed by hand in a bowl. 

Thanks,
Norma

scottfsmith,

Thanks for finding the more detailed recipe. 

Norma

JLP,

Great to hear how you are progressing. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 09, 2010, 01:46:03 PM
This may help for any Italian recipes that are posted.  I got it from the thread I posted earlier.

Type            Ash%   Protein Minimum%
Type 00        Max 0.55           9
Type 0        Max 0.65          11
Type 1        Max 0.80          12
Type 2        Max 0.95          12
Full     from 1.30 to 1.70          12



W inf. 130        No bread   
W from 190 to 220     weak flour   
W from 230 to 290        normal force   
W from 300 to 370        of mean force -Protein from 14.5 to 15.5%
W from 380 to 450        strong-Protein from 15.5 to 18%

Bob1
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: widespreadpizza on January 09, 2010, 04:17:39 PM
Jose,  once the crumb sets in the first half of baking,  they always seem to support everything jut fine.  Just had some sandwiches on that stuff out of the pannini press.  They were great.  -marc
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: ninapizza23 on January 09, 2010, 06:35:24 PM
Jose',
that pizza alla romana that you got from Gennarino site looks terrible!
 Some bakers that make semolina bread cheat on the flour, they use yellow coloring and semolina flavor, I discovered it for the first time in Phoenix, then in NY and my town in Sicily.  In NY, the baker/owner where I use to work a long time ago  told me that he uses 50/50 but I don't believe him. i have extra fancy durum flour home and I only add 10% otherwise it will make the dough heavy.  I read in a website that semolina flour is high in protein but very low in gluten or no gluten. In a website I read that they use malta d'orzo.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: widespreadpizza on January 09, 2010, 06:42:42 PM
Nina,  I must disagree about your 100% semolina making the crust heavy.  The foccacia I posted on earlier 100% durum wheat and is melt in your mouth light. -marc
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 09, 2010, 07:05:12 PM
I just clicked on the link to the Gennarino site, and those pizzas do look pretty weird and oddly deformed...as though the cells collapsed either under the weight of the toppings and/or were squeezed during the process of being cut and didn't recover. What causes that, and- more importantly- how can it be avoided ?

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 09, 2010, 07:29:18 PM
Does anyone know where bakerboy has his bakery?  I think it is near me.  Is it Conshohocken Italian Bakery?   ???  If it is, I see Conshohocken Italian Bakey is open tomorrow from 7am to 1pm.  They specialize in the Tomato Pie and other kinds of foccacia pies.  If this is the bakery, I will try to go there tomorrow morning and purchase a Tomato Pie and see if I can find out anything about how they make their pies.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: ninapizza23 on January 09, 2010, 08:13:33 PM
Widespreadpizza,
If you use 100% semolina to make bread in "un impasto diretto" like they say in Italy it will not rise, but if you make un impasto indiretto, it will work like the one that Matt did. I understand your disagreement  because I did not explain myself properly. Do you agree with me now?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 09, 2010, 10:24:21 PM
So far I have tried Matt's version of Marco's recipe with great results,  I had used 40% Semolina and 60% KABF.  I mixed all the flour together and used 75% of the flour for the poolish.  This last batch I tried something different based on an earlier post.  I am using an Excel sheet that calculates it out and I wrote comments on the side for a record.  I will copy it below and it should explain my process.  I found that instead of having the larger bubbles it was more uniform, like bread.  It rose about 15% more than the previous recipe.  The outer crust was ultrathin and crisp.  Kind of like a high temp Caputo.  In fact, in the third picture you can see that my thumb hit the front left corner and pushed it in.  The smell of the ferment, the smell of the cook, and the final taste was very strong and tasted like fresh pasta.  The Durum really showed through.  I thought it was too strong for my taste.  It was very very light.  I think I prefer more body.
In a nutshell I used 60% durum and 40% KABF.  I used all the Durum with 15% of the total KABF in the poolish to add structure.  I also increased the hydration to 80% and reserved a little bit for the final phase to dissolve the yeast and help mix.  It was topped with 28oz of 6 in 1 with spice and Pecorino.  Hopefully the copied sheet will come out all right below.  Sometimes the formatting gets squirrelly.  Please excuse the quality of the crumb shot.  I need a new camera.
                   
Pizza in Teglia Spreadsheet: (grams)               Two   
                  
Pan       Size   Sq In   G Per Ball  Thick Fctr   Balls Qu      Total Weight
16    x   19   304   1292     0.150           1         1292
               Used in 16 x16         1088
               Reserved for cold ferment & Another Pie   204
                  
   Bakers %   Total G   Durum   KABF      
         60.00%   40.00%      
                  
Flour    100.00%   686.67   412.00   274.67      
Water    80.00%   515.00            
IDY   0.70%   4.81            
Salt   2.50%   17.17            
EVOO   5.00%   34.33            
                  
Total   188.20%   1257.97            
                  
Poolish:                  
Flour   66.00%    Durum    KABF       Mixed at 9PM 8/09       
Water   86.00%    100.00%    15.00%       Finished dough 73 deg      
Flour   453.20    412.00    41.20       Stored at 62 degrees      
Water   442.90                
IDY   1.30               
Total   897.40               
                  
Next Day:      Durum   KABF                Mixed at 11AM 9/09      
Flour   233.47                 0.00    233.47                Finished dough Temp 73      
Water   72.10               
IDY   3.51                                                       Rolled out dough in log for two hour rise            
Salt   17.17                                                       Panned for 1 hour parbaked for five minutes            
EVOO   34.33                                          Sauced and baked for 17min at 400 Fh            
Total   360.57   


Thanks,

Bob1            
 
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 09, 2010, 10:34:59 PM
Yes,  I do not have the formatting issues figured out so I converted the sheet to a JPG, if any one wants to check it out.

Thanks,

Bob1
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 09, 2010, 10:41:42 PM
Bob1,

How did you find the handling of this dough with a higher hydration? Also did you do the rest periods?
Overall, how was the taste and lightness?

Thanks,
Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 09, 2010, 11:11:05 PM
Norma, 
The dough was very easy to handle.  I did not start and stop it.  I did not use an autolyse either.  I just made sure that I did a high speed DLX mix on the poolish until I got 73 degrees.  I do not use the dough hook.  I use the fluted drum with the scraper.  Now that I am also experimenting more with temp I find that this mixer is great for controlling dough temps.  I use the infrared gun to shoot the dough and it works great.  It seems that once it hits temp it just firms right up.  I know that I hear about temps of 80 degrees dough hook but everything I read on the Italian sites point toward 23 C or 73 degrees Fh for finished dough on pizza.  The taste was very intense but like semolina or fresh pasta.  It was very very light.  I do not want to sound weird but the texture reminded me of eating chocolate pudding with air bubbles in it.  Maybe too light.  I think this has given me some ideas on possibly using this method with Caputo and the high oil to try and create an imitation WFO clone for low temps some day.  Now that I am developing the gluten better I can start to understand the videos that I see.  I could never understand how they pull those soft doughs out of the mixer and handle them so easy.  On another note, I think if anyone wanted to use a long cold ferment on the poolish for more flavor the 15% KABF should be replaced with KASL for the longer time. 

Thanks,

Bob1
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Pete-zza on January 09, 2010, 11:28:24 PM
Does anyone know where bakerboy has his bakery?

Norma,

See Reply 138 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg47315/topicseen.html#msg47315.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 09, 2010, 11:37:58 PM
Peter,

I guess the visit to bakerboy's bakery will have to wait until another day.  I see they are closed until January 13, 2010.

added picture of bakerboy's foccacia.

Thanks,
Norma

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 10, 2010, 12:15:40 PM
For what it's worth I found a Foccacia video from Genoa.  I know it is a different region, but I found it interesting to see more detail with the process of the finished dough.  He lets it rest, rolls it once, turns 90 degrees and rolls it again.  Then he divides and lets it rise in the pan.  Check it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZXueR_1tN4


Thanks,


Bob1
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 10, 2010, 07:43:08 PM
There has recently been an abundance of examples of people doing pan-baked pizza right on this forum. Here I'm going to present an example of doing it wrong. All aboard the failboat...

So I made the poolish yesterday according to my prior plan. It was the first time I ever made a preferment of any type, and I had no idea of what one is supposed to look like, but I got the feeling that it seemed awfully dense and dough-like for a poolish. I even mentioned as much in my post about making the poolish above.

That feeling should have been a massive red flag.

I took it out of the fridge around 11:00 AM today after 23 hours, let it warm up, mixed in the rest of the yeast, and then the salt and oil. So far, so good, I thought- notwithstanding a nagging doubt that would soon be confirmed once I spooned in the remaining flour and watched everything quickly coalesce into a nice shiny ball that cleaned the bowl entirely.

Obviously, there had been a measurement error the day before, and I wound up with a dough of about 64% hydration instead of the 75% I was aiming for. There was supposed to have been quite a high percentage of yeast in this dough (0.7%), but it rose on the counter at about the same rate as my usual doughs, which have much less yeast in them.

In short, I absent-mindedly put in too much flour and wound up with roughly the same humdrum dough I make every week and was hoping to upgrade. Sort of like the old cartoon gag where the crook unintentionally digs his way back into the very jail he was trying to tunnel out of. How ironic...

It goes without saying that the finished pie, while competent and topped in a savoury fashion, had exactly the same whitebread crumb I was trying to get away from. The 23 hour, botched poolish contributed nothing to improving the usual, boring flavour of this dough.

It looks like my breakout into the world of artisanal pan-baked pizza will have to wait at least another week. Study epic fail, learn from epic fail...

-JLP



Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 10, 2010, 07:52:59 PM
JPL,

Don't get discouraged, your pie looks very tasty.  :)  I didn't get the results I wanted either.  Back to the drawing board for us..lol 

If we don't get it right the first time, try, try, try again.  We will eventually get it right, with all the help we are receiving.  :)

Thanks for sharing your experience and pictures.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 10, 2010, 07:57:19 PM
Jose, 

There is always tomorrow. 

How did the crumb look with the lower hydration?

Thanks,

Bob1
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 10, 2010, 08:01:04 PM
How did the crumb look with the lower hydration?


Jose,
Let me elaborate on that.  When you say bread like. were the bubbles small with no elasticity?  Was there little flavor?

Thanks,

Bob1
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 10, 2010, 08:56:13 PM
Norma:

I'd get demoralized if I didn't have to go back to the drawing board from time to time. Imagine how boring pizzamaking would become if you could always get it right on your first try...

Bob1:

Yes, the bubbles were very small, almost like white bread, and the taste was about the same.

-JLP

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on January 11, 2010, 06:36:24 AM
For what it's worth I found a Foccacia video from Genoa.  I know it is a different region, but I found it interesting to see more detail with the process of the finished dough.  He lets it rest, rolls it once, turns 90 degrees and rolls it again.  Then he divides and lets it rise in the pan.  Check it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZXueR_1tN4


Thanks,


Bob1

Thanks for posting, great video.  What's interesting is the dough is only hydrated @ about 50% & he uses corn syrup as a substitute for malt extract.  He does mention in the beginning that the end result is more about the process & handling than the ingredients.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 11, 2010, 02:29:02 PM
Matt,
Glad you found the video interesting.  I guess you saw my results were less than expacted with the formula that I tried.  I was trying to get a good rise out of Durum by using the 15% KABF in the preferment.  It worked and I got more rise than with the 60/40, but the crumb was more bread like and it tasted to much like semolina for my taste.  However, on a good note I reserved a 204 gram ball for a one day cold ferment on the total mix.  It turned out a nice 10" pie cooked at 650 deg on a fibrement.  It was light and not bread like.  The crust had a good over all flavor of both flours and the browned crust was very tasty.  I will post a few pics.  I think I will try the same recipe again but add the second ferment and see what happens.  I also think I will push the hydration up to 85%.  I do not know what Gabriele actually uses but it looks very wet.

Thanks,

Bob 
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 11, 2010, 02:33:37 PM
Oops, I hit the post button accidently.  Here are the pics

Thanks,

Bob1
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 11, 2010, 07:21:54 PM
Jose,
Has any one actually been in Rome to try Pizza in Teglia?  It seems like we need to learn more about the process.  Marco gave a great recipe that gave a good result, but there was not a lot of detail on handling the dough.  How does it differ in texture from Focaccia?  How does it differ from focaccia, in how you handle the dough?  It seemed like Gabriele rolled the dough as some of the people who make Focaccia.  If his product is unique maybe he does a cross between the two.  Any ideas on that?

Thanks,

Bob1
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on January 11, 2010, 07:43:24 PM
Jose,
Has any one actually been in Rome to try Pizza in Teglia?  It seems like we need to learn more about the process.  Marco gave a great recipe that gave a good result, but there was not a lot of detail on handling the dough.  How does it differ in texture from Focaccia?  How does it differ from focaccia, in how you handle the dough?  It seemed like Gabriele rolled the dough as some of the people who make Focaccia.  If his product is unique maybe he does a cross between the two.  Any ideas on that?

Thanks,

Bob1

Bob,
My personal observation is that the more you handle the dough the more bread-like the texture.  The last dough that I made in the sfincione thread was not handled at all after it was kneaded except very briefly 40 hours later to lightly stretch onto the pan.  As you can see from the photos it was extremely light & airy, not bread like at all.  I then did a 2nd proof for about 2 hours & the end result was a dough that was so bubbly that I could hardly spread the sauce on it.  My guess is that if there was no topping that I would of got some serious oven spring. 

I am intrigued by the video that you posted & am going to give it a shot this weekend using a starter, maybe my Ischia this time.  I think I am going to use 15% semola & 85% Caputo.  I'm also going to substitute the EVOO with strutto (because I like the texture that it adds) & am going to use malt extract instead of corn syrup. 

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 11, 2010, 09:30:54 PM

It seems like we need to learn more about the process.  Marco gave a great recipe that gave a good result, but there was not a lot of detail on handling the dough.  How does it differ in texture from Focaccia?  How does it differ from focaccia, in how you handle the dough?  It seemed like Gabriele rolled the dough as some of the people who make Focaccia.  If his product is unique maybe he does a cross between the two.  Any ideas on that?

Thanks,

Bob1

I think the only thing anybody around here knows about the process for sure at this point is that: a) Gabriele uses a natural starter, b) the hydration level of his doughs is 90% (which is pretty much normal for the style), c) in pro settings they use high-speed spiral mixers, and d) they use rigenero cycles.

Unfortunately whoever it was who produced the following video, http://video.aol.co.uk/video-detail/-pizza-rium/3866298856 (http://video.aol.co.uk/video-detail/-pizza-rium/3866298856) decided to use fast-motion in the scene documenting what the guy is doing, but by double-clicking my mouse over the pause control rapidly I think I could make him out doing something like a stretch-and-fold- but it's hard to tell from just a smattering of frames. The other video shows Gabriele rolling dough into a cylinder, and it also shows him dumping a mass onto a tabletop and then stretching the part that wasn't stuck to the table back and forth as though playing an accordion. Can't speak italian, don't know how these two procedures are related (or even just what it is he's actually making, seeing as how he does lots of other types of bread).

I think a natural starter is a must for getting the crumb structure with the big bubbles definitive of the Romana style- or at least makes it a lot easier. Matt used a starter and totally nailed it in his latest sfincione project. Moreover, almost every picture I've seen of pizza of any style that had this sort of crumb was posted by somebody who said they used a starter to make it.

-JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 11, 2010, 10:04:31 PM
Jose,
Thanks for the recap.  I guess the other major question would be cooking temps.  I cooked mine at 400 deg F and I think that might have been to low.  From what I am seeing now, in several places, points more to a temperature ranging from 470 to 550 F.  I was really happy with the pie that I made with the left over dough at 650.  It was light, not bread like, and had nice structure.  I think it was the higher temp and the fact that the KABF had a chance to develop.  I think I will try it again with an adjustment on the ferment ratio, up the hydration, and cook it at 500 deg F.  I also think I let the ferment raise a little to much before I did phase 2 on the first batch.  Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Bob1
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 11, 2010, 10:31:43 PM
Quote
Bob,
My personal observation is that the more you handle the dough the more breadline the texture.  The last dough that I made in the sfincione thread was not handled at all after it was kneaded except very briefly 40 hours later to lightly stretch onto the pan.  As you can see from the photos it was extremely light & airy, not bread like at all.  I then did a 2nd proof for about 2 hours & the end result was a dough that was so bubbly that I could hardly spread the sauce on it.  My guess is that if

Matt,
I did do a single cylinder roll with the dough, but that was it.  I am new at this.  Do you think that made it bread like?  I thought maybe because I did a room temp ferment and let it go a little to long.  When I say bread like, I meant the small bubble.  It was a very very light crumb.  I also think that the low temp does not give the steam expansion and rippage that you get from a hotter cook.  What temp are you cooking at?

I'll be looking forward to see how your pie comes out this weekend.

Thanks,

Bob1 
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: ninapizza23 on January 11, 2010, 10:42:48 PM
There is a pizzeria romana in NY that uses natural dough with different flours. The only one that I know!
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 11, 2010, 10:54:00 PM
Ninapizza23,
Do you know the name. and do you know if it is traditional?

Thanks,

Bob1
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 11, 2010, 11:14:04 PM
I guess the other major question would be cooking temps.  I cooked mine at 400 deg F and I think that might have been to low.  From what I am seeing now, in several places, points more to a temperature ranging from 470 to 550 F. 

For what my opinion is worth, that sounds totally right to me. 400 is just too low, especially with the higher levels of hydration. In fact, Marco recommended 280-300 Centigrade, which corresponds to about 545-570 or so.

Also, for what it's worth I've noticed from experience that the same dough can yield radically different results when it's directly baked (e.g. on a stone) than when it's baked in an oiled pan (even at the same temperature).

For all of these reasons, I'm not surprised to hear that your dough came out better on a screen at 650 than it did in the pan at 400.

I don't really know anything about preferments yet, so I'm not of any use in that area.

-JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 11, 2010, 11:28:44 PM
Thanks Jose,

I will try the hotter temps and see how well it works.  I also agree with you about the starters.  It is hard to compare crumbs.  I have the two Italian starters and I plan on starting the Camoldi this week.  I should be up and running in a few weeks. 

Quote
For all of these reasons, I'm not surprised to hear that your dough came out better on a screen at 650 than it did in the pan at 400.

Actually , I used a fibrement stone with no screen.  I would love to do the big pie on it but I think I need to get used to working with the high hydration doughs first.  I could foresee a major fiasco at this point.  The little 10" pie was easy to handle.

Thanks,

Bob1
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on January 12, 2010, 06:07:08 AM
Matt,
I did do a single cylinder roll with the dough, but that was it.  I am new at this.  Do you think that made it bread like?  I thought maybe because I did a room temp ferment and let it go a little to long.  When I say bread like, I meant the small bubble.  It was a very very light crumb.  I also think that the low temp does not give the steam expansion and rippage that you get from a hotter cook.  What temp are you cooking at?

I'll be looking forward to see how your pie comes out this weekend.

Thanks,

Bob1 

Hi Bob,
My statement was just a general one, based on what you mentioned, I would say no.  I bake on a 3/4 " corderite shelf positioned in the lowest rack of my oven.  With another corderite shelf right over top.  I have a 48" convection gas oven oven, I crank it up to 500 with the convection going which adds about 25 degrees to the ambient temperature.  If your looking for steam expansion just put a tray of boiling water in the bottom rack of the oven.

Matt

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 12, 2010, 08:24:18 AM
Thanks Matt,
Sounds like a nice oven.  I think I will try 500 with the pan and use the convection.  However, for the sake of speeding up the learning curve I will make extra dough and try a few small pies right on the stone.  I will also try different temps on those balls (550 & 575).  It will be interesting to see the difference. 
In regards to the steam, I was referring to the internal crumb action.  I want to develop a feel for the oven spring, steam inside the bubble, and the ability for the gluten to handle it.  I want to see bigger bubbles to get a different texture.  From the results of the 10" pie my dough had the ability to do what I want.  I do not think it was the second day ferment that helped as much as the higher temp.  There should be enough steam in the dough to overcome the weight of itself par baked.

Thanks,

Bob1
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: ninapizza23 on January 12, 2010, 06:25:33 PM
Bob1,
what city do you live?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 12, 2010, 06:58:39 PM
Ninapizza23,
I live 20 miles Northeast of philly.  I am assuming you are in New York.  If so, is that City or state?

Thanks,

Bob1
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: ninapizza23 on January 12, 2010, 09:50:42 PM
Bob1,
I live by JFK airport in Queens,NY. Do you ever come to NYC?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 12, 2010, 10:13:22 PM
Ninapizza23,
I have not been up there for a few years.  I had a service call at the BJ's club a few times.  I use my business travels to take advantage of checking out the pizza shops.  What is the name of the Roman style shop?  I'll mark it down in case I am in the area.

Thanks,

Bob1     
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: ninapizza23 on January 13, 2010, 11:24:08 PM
HERE IS ANOTHER PICTURE OF PIZZA ROMANA AL METRO.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 13, 2010, 11:57:16 PM
ninapizza23,

Is this the place you visited to purchase the Pizza Romana Al Metro, in Rome? If you go to the bottom of the article and click under Sicily in Rome if this where you can see all about the arancine your were talking about before?  I see what is all in the ingredients and that sounds tasty.

www.romepost.it/Best_of_Rome_Pizza_go.htm

I found the picture on a Google search of images and article under the search.

Thanks,
Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 14, 2010, 01:15:17 AM
There are some outstanding pics of al metro pies (as well as some hilarious Internet drama over the question of what they should be called) to be found in the following old thread:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,961.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,961.0.html).

I'd love to see the pans in which these things are baked...

-JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 14, 2010, 08:06:25 AM
JLP,

I think pizzanapoletana, explains the kind of pizza we are looking for in reply #11 under the same link you provided JLP.  He says: Pizza alla romana (o in teglia) find it's best expression in pizza bianca also known as focaccia patate e rosmarino. The dough is made in a different way, it is baked in a different way and the final result it is completely different from any other baking product. Roman pizza is made with a unique dough method which involves a phase called "rigeneri" and use percentage close to 110% flour to 100% water....

Then again in reply #17 he says:If we then start talking about focaccia, then we can explain the difference from the Sicilian one, Roman and Ligurian for example...

Then bakerboy says: i remember reading in carol fields "the italian baker" about a pizza like this made by a roman baker.  They sold this "pizza alla romana" by the yard, or by the foot.   

Here is more about this type of pizza:

Pizza (da pizzeria), pizza tonda, pizza alla pala, pizza da forno, pizza alla genovese, pizza in teglia, pizza al taglio, focaccia, and pane pizza are just some of the main variations of pizza .

http://ilmondodiluvi.blogspot.com/2008_11_26_archive.html

http://www.kucinare.it/user/ricetta.aspx?idricetta=607

www.montagnadilombardia.com/ricette/focaccia.html

http://www.unigel.it/it/catalogue/pizze-focacce.asp

 www.universocucina.com/forum/topic4437-15.html  This is a forum in Italian.

http://www.italiancookingforum.net/piazza_about.htm

http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?webtag=ab-italianfood

http://www.italyum.com/italian-recipes/pizza-recipes/

www.italiannotebook.com/Notes/pizzaataglio.htm

I know Matt can read Italian so maybe these sites might be interesting.  The one is a forum is in Italian.  I could go on searching forever, to find what you are looking for, but hopefully this will help someone.

Maybe Matt can see information at this forum and help us all.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: ninapizza23 on January 14, 2010, 11:02:06 AM
Norma,
sorry if I have not been able to answer before. I have been busy. The answer to your question is NO, I make my own arancini, I do not eat out much. Over last weekend I made about 20 arancini for my daughter and my guest pizzaiolo. Now I will be dealing with a pizzaiolo expert on pizza romana that want to open a pizzeria romana in NY with me. I will let you know sometime in the future. Also, I do not remember why I recommended Gino Focacceria on 18th ave, I have not been there in a year, my daughter  used to buy pane e panelli but now she's in college in AZ. But I do go to the bakery once in a while for cannoli.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: ninapizza23 on January 14, 2010, 11:14:25 AM
JLP,
pizza al metro is not done on trays. They don't make trays 3' long. They use a long pala with a special technique. There used to be 3 pizzerias in boston that specialized in this near the university but for some reason they closed.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 14, 2010, 12:58:26 PM
Jose,
Here is a video of the three foot pies being made.  http://www.flour.it/Pizza-Romana-Stirata.htm
It came from this web page. http://www.flour.it/Flour-Video-Recipes.htm   
They also have a lot of data on the different types of flour rated in W and their particular uses.

Thanks,

Bob1
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on January 14, 2010, 07:12:43 PM
Norma,
There is such an abundant variations of focaccia, pizza in teglia, & pizza al metro that it's mind blowing.  All 3 are quite different & unique in their own way.  I have been experimenting with pizza in teglia lately in roman style, roman with a sicilian twist, & pure sicilian.  I will probably give pizza al metro a shot in the spring once I fire up my WFO.  This weekend I will be experimenting with focaccia genovese.  I plan on doing it the traditional & true (vera) way by using tipo 00 flour, malt extract, & of coarse a wild yeast.  I haven't decided yet if I'm going to use strutto (lard) of EVOO in the dough.  I picked up a beautiful bottle of Oro di Sicilia (Sicilian Gold) premium cold pressed EVOO specifically for the focaccia.
I'm still fooling around with the numbers for my formula.  I plan on making the dough Saturday morning after my daughter's ballet class.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 14, 2010, 07:33:31 PM
Matt,

I can see by searching there are so many kinds of focaccia and can also believe there are so many ways to go about making all of them.  Since I am not Italian, you know much more than I do. 
It will be interesting to see your focaccia genovese.   :) The bottle of Oro di Sicilia sounds very elegant.  Will be interested to see how your focaccia genovese turns out.
If I ever get a starter going, I will try different methods and different kinds of focaccia.  I am working on 2 natural starters of rye flour and water. The one I want to add Caputo after it gets to that right phase and the other I might either add AP or high-gluten flour. Only on day 4, but it seems to be doing okay.  .

Thanks for the update,  :)
Norma 
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 15, 2010, 01:25:29 PM
Thanks everybody for the links and insights. Now we know that not all Roman-type pies are interchangeable. The aggregation of information soldiers on...

I'm going to take one last stab at a poolish-based formulation and see what happens. If this doesn't get me the results I want, then it's off to the territory of natural starters. If that still doesn't work, then I'm going to seriously review my choice of flours and my mixing techniques (to think when I first started with pizzamaking I promised myself that I wouldn't become obssessive or geek out over it- but here we are...)

I took advantage of some idle time and hastily came up with the following (derived from Marco's recipes and Jeff V's treatment of same):

Flour: 100%
Water: 85%
IDY: 1%
Salt: 2.5%
Oil: 5%

For the poolish:

All the water
75% of the flour
1/3 of the IDY

The poolish is already in the fridge. Boy is it ever wet. I'm going to take out around 12:30 am tomorrow and take the rest from there.

-JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 17, 2010, 05:11:01 PM
Jose,
I made a batch at the beginning of the week using 90% hydration. I was very surprised how easy it was to work with the wet dough.  The details are on my excel sheet picture below.  I deviated from the plan and decided to cook it on the stone.  The first large 16x16 pie was a disaster.  I preheated the oven for two hours and put the pie in.  To make a long story short the oven died and was only at 300 degrees when I put it in (Yes I never checked it).  It was a major fail. I used my other two 315 gram balls to make two other pies on two separate days.  I had formed a rough ball with them and refrigerated them for two hours to give them enough chill to help form the balls correctly.  This worked well.  I also wanted to get some toppings on so I made them a little thinner than I should have, in order to buy space.  I guess the bottom line is, I did not stick with the program but I did test the dough at these temps with these variables.  The crumb was very nice, light, and tasty.  I was not able to use the balls in a timely fashion.  I would have cut back on the secondary yeast if I would have known.  Sorry to deviate from the plan but it is similar and shows examples of a cold ferment and mixing all the semolina in the first stage.  These are the pics of the last pie.  I have some from the second pie but did not hook that camera up to retrieve them yet.

Thanks,

Bob1
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 17, 2010, 05:27:23 PM
Bob1,

Your recent pies looks very tasty.  It's great to see how you are progressing.   :)  The spreadsheet also helps me understand your formula.  Your recent pies have that nice and airy crust.  :)
I wanted to ask you a question, if you don't mind.  When using the durum flour, what brand did you use?  I have purchased some Bob's Red Mill No. 1 Durum Wheat Semolina Flour and I don't know if this is fine enough to use in a formula like yours.  When I have time I want look further at an Italian store in Lancaster.  I was there different times before, but didn't think to look for Italian flour. 

Great job in creating delicious looking pies!

Thanks for posting the pictures and spreadsheet.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 17, 2010, 06:17:54 PM
Norma,
Thanks, for the nice comments,  I have no idea what durum I use.  I buy it from broken down 50# bags at Bova.  10#'s usually lasts a while for me.  You can tell if it is durum because it feels and looks like regular flour but has a yellow hue.  Semolina is a much coarser grind, closer to corn meal.  I am sure yours is good, as long as it appears powdery like flower.  Durum is week for trapping bubbles so it needs to be used with a higher protein flour to get a good rise.  Next time I am going to try and cut the KABF with KASL at 50/50 to see what happens.  I also ignored the bread making technique of not kneading the dough too much for a preferment.  It seemed to work because I could handle the dough very well, and I got great rise with a lot of air.  I use the Excel sheet so I can keep a log and insert my pictures.  It's great because I can post it with out having to type in the ingredients, or technique.  It seems to be more efficient.  It also calculates the thickness factors and ball sizes so I do not have to use the dough tools on line.  I have it set up for a thickness factor for Oz's/Sq in's for the forum, but I prefer to use grams.  It is easier for me to visualize the ratio.

Thanks,

Bob1
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 17, 2010, 06:49:16 PM
Jose,
I made a batch at the beginning of the week using 90% hydration. I was very surprised how easy it was to work with the wet dough.

That's awesome. I tried to make a dough yesterday at only 85% hydration and it was such a complete disaster area (absolutely unmanageable, stuck like glue to everything it came into contact with) that I had to abort the project altogether.

Those pics look outstanding.

-JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 17, 2010, 07:02:46 PM
Jose,

Thanks,
I allways had trouble with wet dough before.  It seems to me that developing the batter made all the difference.   

Thanks,

Bob1
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on January 18, 2010, 06:17:05 AM
That's awesome. I tried to make a dough yesterday at only 85% hydration and it was such a complete disaster area (absolutely unmanageable, stuck like glue to everything it came into contact with) that I had to abort the project altogether.

Those pics look outstanding.

-JLP

Jose,
The key to working with a super hydrated dough is alot of bench flour on the top & bottom.  This will make your life super easy especially when you cover your dough with a towel for proofing.  The best way is to sprinkle some flour on with a fine mesh strainer.  Don't worry about using too much, you can always brush it off once your dough sets properly.  Once your dough is done proofing it will develop a nice soft outer skin, making it alot easier to work with.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 18, 2010, 09:16:24 AM
Jose,
I used a lot of bench flour as Matt suggested, and I also added rice flour on top of the peel flour.  I used to use corn meal but it does introduce flavor.  I also try to use a bench flour of higher protein.  KASL is very thirsty and absorbs a lot of moisture.  When I divided mine I did not use any bench flour.  I made sure I had a little oil on my hands.  I also used just oil to form the balls and then tightened them up after an hour in the refrigerator.  When I pulled the spindle out of the DXL the dough pulled off the spindle and left it almost clean.  If I use my 16 x 16 pan I pour the dough in and then flip it to get oil on both sides.  I then cover it with saran wrap to raise.  When I did the balls I used the same method that Bill/SFNM did in one of his videos.  I powdered the top of the raised ball in the Tupperware container and dumped it on the peel.  I then finger press and stretch.  It did not even come close to sticking, in fact it was a pleasure to work with.

Thanks,

Bob1

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 18, 2010, 05:06:36 PM
Matt and Bob1,

I will definitely be less shy with the bench flour next time around; I was thinking of going as far as dunking the mass in a bowl full of flour if I have to. Also, I think I have to be far more aggressive about mixing it, since over and above being sticky it was jelly-like and totally lacking in structural integrity as well (I tried stretching it the way Garbriele did in one of the videos and actually tore it in half on the first pull).

-JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 18, 2010, 05:12:12 PM
Jose,
What type of mixer are you using?

Bob1
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 18, 2010, 08:51:49 PM
A very old, crappy Braun stand mixer. Ideally, I'd get a DLX, but that's just not happening right now.

-JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 18, 2010, 09:11:51 PM
Jose,
It should not matter with a dough this wet.  You should get better results.  What technique are you using?  Which hooks, how much time, and how long"?

Thanks,

Bob1
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 18, 2010, 10:43:20 PM
Hi Joe,
I looked at your recipe and I saw that you only listed flour.  What type was it?  Is your model the KM32?

Thanks,

Bob1
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 19, 2010, 07:13:08 AM
If you want, take a look though this link about Sicilian pizza and other ideas.

http://www.pizzablogger.org

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 19, 2010, 10:48:39 AM
Bob1,

From the pic I'll say that mine is an earlier version of that one (I bought mine in the mid-80s). The dough hook pictured is exactly the same and is what I use without exception.

The flour was a mix of about 70% bread flour (Robin Hood) and AP (generic house-brand of a local grocery chain). I made the poolish, put it in the fridge, took it out the next day, and let it rise on the counter until it was dotted with bubbles and some creases had begun to appear on the surface. I poured that in the mixer, put in the rest of the flour and yeast, then the salt and oil, and mixed at max speed (with the abovementioned dough hook) for about 7 minutes. I then shut off the mixer, waited 10 minutes, mixed again for 1 minute at max speed, and repeated those steps 3 more times.

Whether or not prolonging the mix would help is something I regard as an open question. The dough hook did not seem to be doing much more than stirring the batter. At lower hydration levels, dough continuously winds around the hook like tape on a spool, and gets a good workout by being constantly stretched in the process- something that doesn't happen when the hook is just stirring liquid. All of this raises issues concerning gluten development and so on that I just don't have the technical chops to address (e.g. does batter turn into dough if it's stirred long enough ?).

I also think I'm going to have to get some semolina flour, which (judging by the results obtained by various people around here) seems ideally suited for
high-hydration formulas.

Norma:

Thanks for the link. Is that the blog of the guy who occasionally posts here under the username pizzablogger ?

-JLP


Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 19, 2010, 12:28:50 PM
Jose,
I would not worry about the durum at this point, and I would not worry about mixing times and following a cookie cutter pattern.  I would suggest developing the gluten in the preferment and the final dough.  This is against what bread makers say but I try to think out of the box.  You can do this by doing an autolyse for 20 minutes to hydrate the flour and then use you whisk at a low speed.  Do not worry about time, only gluten development and temp.  You will find that there is a nonlinear curve in respects to mixer friction and gluten development.  I have a small IR gun from work that I use to measure my dough temp as I mix.  You will see that as the gluten develops the friction increases and the dough temp rises faster.  I also try to use at least 10 degrees of mixing friction to achieve the final dough.  I believe that the optimum yeast development is between 68 to 80 degrees.  When I look at the Italian sites they recommend 73 degrees final dough temp for pizza so that is what I am testing now.  Jose, don't get me wrong, I am not an authority on this, and these are just my findings with the test that I am doing now.  I have been quite pleased with the dough development.  When I watch the videos and I see these guys working with wet doughs it always amazed me.  Now that I started doing this I find that when I pull the dough out of the bowl it pulls out together as one developed mass.  Look at the picture Marco posted where the guy stretches the dough a foot and a half out of the mixer.  Yeah, we would all like to have spiral mixers, but there is a lot of improvement available for what we have now.  I would start with the whisk until it can not perform and switch to the hook, then mix until I got to 73 degrees (Slowly).  I have never tried it but I would think that if you put one beater in a hand mixer, at low speed, you could probably use it between the whisk and kneader bar phase.   I'll try to get some pics next time I mix.

Thanks,

Bob1
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 19, 2010, 05:13:04 PM
I would start with the whisk until it can not perform and switch to the hook

Bingo. I was trying to think the exact same thing in my last post but couldn't articulate it until I read that. I'm definitely going to give it a go the next time out.

-JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 19, 2010, 11:52:05 PM
Jose,
I just made another batch of preferment using the same formula as my last, with the exception of using KASL instead of KABF.  I took pics with temps so you could see how the development took place at low speed over 45 minutes.  I used 50 degree water with 67 degree flour,  It started at a combined average of 62 F and went to 73 F.  You can see the gluten develop by just stirring.  At one point around 68 deg I took a pic while flapping the scraper so you could see the webbing.  Take note to the right hand side feeding the roller and you can see the twisting overlap start as it gets stronger.  By the end you can see what the Yahoo mixer group call the doughnut.  " Be one with the doughnut".  It is hard to see but the wall was high.  There is no need for a special mixer to achieve this.  It is just a matter of making it work.

Thanks,

Bob1
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 19, 2010, 11:53:14 PM
Here's more

Bob1
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on January 20, 2010, 06:49:34 AM
Jose,
I just made another batch of preferment using the same formula as my last, with the exception of using KASL instead of KABF.  I took pics with temps so you could see how the development took place at low speed over 45 minutes.  I used 50 degree water with 67 degree flour,  It started at a combined average of 62 F and went to 73 F.  You can see the gluten develop by just stirring.  At one point around 68 deg I took a pic while flapping the scraper so you could see the webbing.  Take note to the right hand side feeding the roller and you can see the twisting overlap start as it gets stronger.  By the end you can see what the Yahoo mixer group call the doughnut.  " Be one with the doughnut".  It is hard to see but the wall was high.  There is no need for a special mixer to achieve this.  It is just a matter of making it work.

Thanks,

Bob1

Hi Bob,
Good job.  What's your overall mix time & at what speed.  I usually resposition the roller closer to the bowl once the dough starts to thicken.  You want to get it to the point where it's pressing tightly against the dough but not crawling up the roller.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 20, 2010, 07:28:47 AM
Thanks Matt,
I had the roller close to the edge 90% of the time.  I also used the slowest speed 90% of the time.  Near the end I watch the dough and speed it to about 1/2 way.  Total time for this was about 45 to 50 minutes.  With a high hydration like this, the biggest effect I get from this mixer is that I can see what's happening.  I firmly believe this could be done with a hand mixer with one beater, if you had the patience.  So the point would be to use the time and settings as a guide line and try to watch the effect. 

Hey, how did you make out with adding the barley malt to yours?  I used to add it to pies and liked the taste and the browning factor that it added. 

Thanks,

Bob1
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on January 20, 2010, 08:06:07 AM
Thanks Matt,
I had the roller close to the edge 90% of the time.  I also used the slowest speed 90% of the time.  Near the end I watch the dough and speed it to about 1/2 way.  Total time for this was about 45 to 50 minutes.  With a high hydration like this, the biggest effect I get from this mixer is that I can see what's happening.  I firmly believe this could be done with a hand mixer with one beater, if you had the patience.  So the point would be to use the time and settings as a guide line and try to watch the effect. 

Hey, how did you make out with adding the barley malt to yours?  I used to add it to pies and liked the taste and the browning factor that it added. 

Thanks,

Bob1

Hi Bob,
All in all everything worked out quite well.  I was torn on how much malt to add so I settled on 5% which in my opinion is a little too high.  I'm thinking more in the 2% range for next time.  The overall hydration of the dough was 62.5% & was 50/50 Caputo/Semola.  I also used strutto instead of EVOO.  Overall, the dough handled beautifully.  The malt makes a huge difference in the browning, so much so that if your not careful you can easily burn the bottom.  For this reason, my next focaccia will be baked on the middle rack @ 450 degrees.  My oven is quite large & holds its temperature quite well so I'm sure that my results would differ.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 20, 2010, 08:19:45 AM
Matt,
I agree about the malt.  I used it at 2.5% at 525 deg and it worked well.  I have not tried it at higher temps but I would think I would have to drop it more at 650.

Thanks,

Bob1
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 20, 2010, 08:28:28 AM
  I firmly believe this could be done with a hand mixer with one beater, if you had the patience. 

Thanks,

Bob1

Bob1,

I did use a regular mixer Hamilton Beach to mix my last dough at home.  The mixing bowl was spinning in the sink for a long while.  So I think this method could also work. This was followed by dumping the dough with a scraper into another container, then using a spatula to mix and rest at different times. I am going to be trying this later in the week and using one of the natural starters.  Will post if it all works out.
This is where I used the regular Hamilton Beach Mixer and how the dough was made. reply # 68 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.60.html  You can see gluten strands did develop.  I will see if a different formula for the dough works out better.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 20, 2010, 09:01:13 AM
Norma,
That's interesting.  It looks like you used both beaters.  I would think that the gluten could get damaged with two.  How long did you mix it? 

Thanks,

Bob1 
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 20, 2010, 09:06:37 AM
Norma,
That's interesting.  It looks like you used both beaters.  I would think that the gluten could get damaged with two.  How long did you mix it? 

Thanks,

Bob1 

Bob1,

I did use two beaters.  The mixing bowl was just spinning around in my double stainless steel sink.  I did mix for about 10 minutes, before incorporating the biga.  Then mixed for about 10 minutes more with the biga. I will try this method again this week, with a natural starter.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 20, 2010, 10:12:58 AM
For anyone following this thread, this might be some more information on making the dough.  I tried to get this link to work, but couldnít.  Maybe someone with more experience can get the link to work.  I just copied the part of the article that was interesting. 


http://foodsnobblog.wordpress.com/2008/08/03/franco-manca-london

Such draconian measures have scared away lesser men, but Macoli is determined, focussed and, if early signs are anything to go by, very near to fulfilling his ambitions. However, being authentic is not enough; he also wants to be the best and so has recruited Neapolitan pizza and wild yeast expert, Marco Parente, as a fulltime consultant to create the perfect dough. Now, this critique has taught me a great deal about pizza including that the most important ingredient is the dough and the most vital element of this most important ingredient is the crescita (culture/starter/mother) i.e. the magical, living organism from which the sourdough grows. With this in mind, Parente procured a very special, very rare 200 year old culture from a secret source off the island of Ischia in the Gulf of Naples. This crescita has been combined with organic stone milled flour made mainly with Italian grains and is allowed a minimum of 20 hours to rise Ė consider this against the 4-6 hours that typical store-bought breads are speed-risen in. This may sound all well and good, but what it really means is that the friendly bacteria in the crescita does most of the hard work for you, breaking down the gluten in the flour, to produce a healthier, easier-to-digest pizza. So I can eat even more pizza before becoming too full, right? To ensure and achieve all this, FM has had two of its very own wood-fired, brick ovens and a dough mixer made by Forno Napoletano and imported especially from Naples.

edit:  Sorry but the link does work..don't know why it didn't work on word.  ???
                           

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Pete-zza on January 20, 2010, 10:28:12 AM
Norma,

The Marco Parente in the item you quoted is known on this forum as pizzanapoletana.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 20, 2010, 10:33:56 AM
Norma,

The Marco Parente in the item you quoted is known on this forum as pizzanapoletana.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks you for adding that.  I knew it was  pizzanapoletana.  Would it have been proper etiquette if I had first used his name before I posted the article?  Sorry,  if I didn't follow what I should have done, before posting.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 20, 2010, 03:58:25 PM
Jose,
I took some shots of the second phase.

Thanks,

Bob1
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 20, 2010, 04:20:05 PM
Jose,
Here is the pie I made today with the above batter.  It fermented 12 hours at 55 F. After phase two it about doubled in the mixing bowl in 3 hours.  I then cooked it at 575 F.  The only difference from the previous recipe is that I replaced the phase one 49g of KABF with KASL.  This pie was very light and airy.  It also had good taste.  I read posts about using a black buster pan above 500 degrees but decided to cook it on the stone, just to be safe.  I reserved two 315g balls for cold ferment.  It was interesting shaping the balls.  I cupped it in my hands and let gravity pull it down.  I then kept grabbing it and letting it fall while I balled it and then sealed it at the top.  It only required a little oil on my hands to do it.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 20, 2010, 06:05:03 PM
Bob1,

Congratulations!  :chef:  All your work has paid off.  The pictures look amazing.  Wish I could taste a slice.

Thanks for posting the pictures of your finished pie and how you handled the dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 20, 2010, 08:56:10 PM
Hey guys,
I was busy this afternoon and just took a quick shot of a slice before I put it away.  I just went to get a late night snack and I thought i would post a another slice.

Thanks,

bob1
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 20, 2010, 10:29:07 PM
Total time for this was about 45 to 50 minutes. 

!!!

And to think when I posted above about "mixing more aggressively",  I was thinking in terms of *20* minutes (and wondering whether that would be too much)...

I guess one lesson to take away from all this is that making this style at home requires a willingness to adopt some pretty radical, out-of-the-box methodologies- at this point, I might as well go back and re-title this thread "Adventures in Extreme Pizzamaking" or something...

In any case, there's no arguing with results, and your pics show beyond any doubt that you've gotten some.

-JLP 
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 21, 2010, 05:42:46 AM
Jose,
In retrospect on this last pie it was big at 16x16 and tasked my skills putting it in an 18x18 oven.  I think I will cut the size down next time.  I really liked what the change of 6% KASL for the preferment.

I hope I don't take things too far off thread sometimes.  Technically we should be copying what we see produced at the Pizzarium, but I feel It's all good knowledge.  I never worked with a dough this wet before and I learned a lot.

Thanks,

Bob1
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 21, 2010, 01:14:47 PM

I hope I don't take things too far off thread sometimes.  Technically we should be copying what we see produced at the Pizzarium, but I feel It's all good knowledge. 

I think the things you've posted recently are about as on-topic as they could possibly be, seeing as how a necessary condition of copying Pizzarium is figuring out how to make a super-high hydration dough in a home environment without professional spiral mixers- something we now know can be done, notwithstanding a lot of conventional wisdom to the contrary. Exploding that myth has cleared the way for the rest of the work.

I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that this thread and the sfincione thread are probably among the most avant-garde food threads on the entire Internet right now. Keep the insights and info coming everybody.

-JLP   
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 21, 2010, 05:24:20 PM
Okay Jose, now let's play devil's advocate.  Here is a quote from fresh loaf.


"A certain amount of oxidation is actually a good thing for dough development.  When gluten molecules are oxidized, sulfhydryl groups on certain amino acids are oxidized to produce disulfide bonds which contribute to the crosslinking of the gluten molecules.  This is what helps form the gluten matrix.  If the dough is over-oxidized, it starts to become problematic because now some of the compounds that contribute to the color, flavor and aroma of the bread are destroyed and the quality of the bread is diminished."


Where do we draw the line?


Thanks,

Bob1


Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: kiwipete on January 21, 2010, 05:53:14 PM
I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that this thread and the sfincione thread are probably among the most avant-garde food threads on the entire Internet right now. 

Sorry for sounding a bit dim, but what is the "sfincione" thread? I have done a search on this forum, and came up with nothing..

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on January 21, 2010, 06:09:07 PM
Sorry for sounding a bit dim, but what is the "sfincione" thread? I have done a search on this forum, and came up with nothing..

Peter

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.0.html
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 21, 2010, 09:46:21 PM
Okay Jose, now let's play devil's advocate.  Here is a quote from fresh loaf.


"A certain amount of oxidation is actually a good thing for dough development.  When gluten molecules are oxidized, sulfhydryl groups on certain amino acids are oxidized to produce disulfide bonds which contribute to the crosslinking of the gluten molecules.  This is what helps form the gluten matrix.  If the dough is over-oxidized, it starts to become problematic because now some of the compounds that contribute to the color, flavor and aroma of the bread are destroyed and the quality of the bread is diminished."


Where do we draw the line?

Wouldn't over-oxidization fail to produce the open crumb in the first place, as one of its chief symptoms ?

-JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 21, 2010, 10:21:22 PM
Jose,
I don't really know.  I thought it takes away from texture, color, and taste.  I mention it because I see demonstration videos of people using dough that looks like it has been all ready developed well and then they use a couple of stretch and folds and says that develops the gluten.  I think people selling books sometime have to create a mystry about it.  Here is an interesting video.  There is no way that I did more than this guy did.  I think we also need to make a distinction between kneading air into the dough, forming gluten, aligning the gluten, fermenting, and timing the temp and yeast.  Mine still had good taste and good color. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvdtUR-XTG0

Thanks,

Bob1
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 22, 2010, 02:26:41 PM
Hey Guys,
I used one of my spare balls today.  I did the preferment on the 19th at 10PM.  Mixed 2nd phase the 20th at 10 AM, then cooked the 1st pie the 20th at 3:40PM.  This spare ball was then cold fermented for 48 hours.  The flavor and results were fantastic.  The 6% KASL added more flavor and character to the crumb.  This pie had San Marzano, Thyme, Anise, Garlic, EVOO, Fresh Mozzarella, Pecorino Romano, and Roasted Peppers

Thanks,

Bob1
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 23, 2010, 12:17:15 PM
Just as an experiment I mixed up an 85% hydration dough ball today (100% Canadian AP, .7% IDY, 2% salt, 5.5% oil, no preferment). I expected to spend forever mixing it and then engage in an epic struggle forming it into something workable. Imagine my surprise when the dough- not batter- cleaned the bottom of the bowl within 12 minutes and easily formed a jelly-like, but perfectly mangeable, dough ball with no more bench flour than I'd ordinarily use.

In fact, it handled exactly like the 68% doughs I used to make for my round pies. There were no measurement errors (everything was doubled checked)- but I don't think that what I have before me is really an 85% hydration dough. I think that the southern Canadian climate might be just too screwy for these sorts of experiments at this time of year this particular year...[edit: maybe my flour is dessicated?]

Bob1: Those round pies look great (and the cornicone looks like it's on steroids...)

-JLP

 
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on January 23, 2010, 05:36:23 PM
Hi Jose,
Thanks for the compliment.  I did not mention it but it was cooked at 575.  I don't know what to make of your post.  If you went from all purpose to bread flour I would say that the higher gluten flour absorbed more water, but you did the opposite.  Humidity can allways be a factor but I would not think that significant.  Is it possible that you are comparing it to a batch that you may have added the oil to before the flour had a chance to absorb all the water?  Maybe we can figure this out.  I also assume you used a scale? Any pics of the dough?

Thanks,

Bob1
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 23, 2010, 08:22:58 PM
Bob1,

Nope, no pics, sorry. Right now I'm putting the whole thing down to some quality-control glitch or other on the flour manufacturer's end, likely involving moisture levels. Next week I'm going to try the same recipe again with a different brand, holding all the mixing techniques constant.

-JLP

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: hotsawce on February 15, 2010, 02:24:15 AM
I found this threat a little late, and I want to try this but there seems to be a few different takes.

For just making a poolish with IDY and not using a starter, what flour and composition of it seems to work best? And, what american flour would get closest to what is needed?

Secondly, what type of baking sheet should be used for this? Cast Iron? Aluminum? A cookie sheet?

   Finally, can this be made even thinner? I know Sullivan Street Bakery makes something somewhat similar, I'm just not quite sure what the difference is.

 Oh, and PS. Where is that video of the cylinder technique? I suppose if I'm going to try this I'll need to watch it  :chef:

Edit: There seems to be the thicker pizza from pizzarium, but then there are these gorgeous thin slices from Antico Forno Roscioli as shown here http://www.seriouseats.com/2008/01/roman-perfection-to-go-rome-italy-forno-marco-roscioli.html What is the difference between preparing the two...or is the latter just spread out thinner?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: malvanova on February 15, 2010, 01:26:57 PM
 hi everyone, can someone tell me if ,durum wheat flour for indian atta bread, is the same as the durum flour you all are describing in this focaccia recipe ; thanks
 good looking crum on those pies,   Bob

 Phil
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: widespreadpizza on February 15, 2010, 03:19:14 PM
Bob,  they are very similar,  just the atta flour has a small percentage of bran added back to it.  I believe it to be a very good substitute,  the grind is vey fine.  Just try to get the golden temple brand and not the whole wheat version,  you wont regret it,  especially when you take the price into account.  I paind 10 dollars for 25 pounds recently.  -marc
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on February 15, 2010, 07:42:43 PM
I found this threat a little late, and I want to try this but there seems to be a few different takes.
  None of us actually had the Pizzarium pie so it really was not a fact based thread,  It was kind of a spinoff of a post from Marco.

For just making a poolish with IDY and not using a starter, what flour and composition of it seems to work best? And, what american flour would get closest to what is needed?

 No real answer on the best.  I was using Durum with a small percentage of high gluten with a tight kneed on the ferment.  The experiment was to use the Gluten to let the weak durum raise better in order to get an airy but soft crumb. I do recommend using a low protein flour for the poolish and nothing higher than bread flour for the rest  While we were doing this Norma was doing something similar on the Sfcione thread and kneading it by hand with good results, so it all works.

Secondly, what type of baking sheet should be used for this? Cast Iron? Aluminum? A cookie sheet?

You should be fine with an aluminum pan, but if it is silver, you should season it (on the outside).  

   Finally, can this be made even thinner? I know Sullivan Street Bakery makes something somewhat similar, I'm just not quite sure what the difference is.

  You can certainly make it much thinner, it's all up to personal taste.  You just have to adjust your bake times.

Oh, and PS. Where is that video of the cylinder technique? I suppose if I'm going to try this I'll need to watch it  :chef: 

We saw that he was rolling the dough as if you were making Italian bread, but I am not even sure if it is in reference to the Roman pie or not. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzgjXuq1ztI&feature=related


Edit: There seems to be the thicker pizza from pizzarium, but then there are these gorgeous thin slices from Antico Forno Roscioli as shown here http://www.seriouseats.com/2008/01/roman-perfection-to-go-rome-italy-forno-marco-roscioli.html What is the difference between preparing the two...or is the latter just spread out thinner?
  I would say that the same dough could be used for thin or thick pan baked pies.

Malvanova,  Thanks for the thumbs up.

Widespread, I have never tried atta before but I will look for it. 

Thanks,

Bob
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on December 16, 2010, 11:59:40 AM
A question that's been dogging me for a while is just why exactly it is that Pizzarium et al. use such high levels of hydration in their doughs. I recently saw a video filmed at Pizzarium's Seoul outlet in which you could see the guy re-heating slices for the customers; could it be that the high hydration merely serves to ensure that the slices don't become hard and dessicated during re-heating, and is thus irrelevant to the guy at home who eats his pies straight out of the oven ?

Is there anybody who can walk me through the science concerning the impact of an extremely high (90%) hydration on the biochemical side of things (gluten, enzymes, and all that), and how that, in turn, affects the bake and the characteristics of the finished product ? Pete-zza ?

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Pete-zza on December 16, 2010, 03:39:14 PM
Is there anybody who can walk me through the science concerning the impact of an extremely high (90%) hydration on the biochemical side of things (gluten, enzymes, and all that), and how that, in turn, affects the bake and the characteristics of the finished product ? Pete-zza ?

JLP,

Speaking in general terms, and all else being equal, a higher hydration dough will ferment faster than a lower hydration dough. The water permeates and migrates faster within the dough (enhanced mobility) and allows biochemical activity to occur faster, whether it is the effects of yeast, salt, sugar, enzymes, etc. (The same thing happens with high hydration preferments like poolish, which has a hydration of 100%.) A dough with high hydration will also be more extensible than a lower hydration dough but, unless steps are taken to more fully develop the gluten strength, such as turns and folds and the like, that increased extensibility may make the dough harder to handle and the dough may stick more readily to work surfaces and peels. To the extent that the dough is properly kneaded (by hand or machine), with a good gluten matrix that optimally retains the gases of fermentation, the finished crust should be more open and airy than a lower hydration dough and it should have a lot of large voids (alveoles), ideally of different sizes and shapes.

The way that the pizza is baked (e.g., on a pan or screen or on a pizza stone) will also influence the oven spring and the finished crust and crumb. Under the best of conditions, the heat from baking will cause the moisture in the dough to turn to steam and cause the rim of the crust to swell and expand. The extent of the expansion can also be impacted by the specific hydration value. If the hydration value is too high, it may be harder for the steam to "lift" the dough to produce a large rim. Also, some ovens and baking regimens will work better than others in achieving this result. It may appear counterintuitive, but a well hydrated dough is needed to get a crispy crust. The softness of the dough will allow it to open up more readily under the influence of heat and to act somewhat like an insulator, rather than passing through the dough and hitting the sauce and turning to steam. This allows for the dough to bake longer and develop a crispy crust, while at the same time having a soft interior. Tom Lehmann discusses some of these points at http://digital.pmq.com/pizzamagazine/200810/?folio=22.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on December 16, 2010, 05:43:09 PM
Jose,
Stay tuned.  I'll be making a few of these this weekend for my sons birthday party.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on December 16, 2010, 10:33:33 PM
Pete-zza: Many thanks for your reply- it had everything I needed.

Matt: Awesome- I look forward to the write-up and-or pics.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Tscarborough on December 16, 2010, 10:38:16 PM
Pete, as someone who cooks on a pan for about half the cook time and also uses a high hydration dough (75-80%), usually in the temperature range of 800 ambient, with a 700-750 floor, I notice that most of the spring takes place on the pan (i.e. in the first 40-50 seconds), not after I de-pan it to the floor.  I can also control the spring closely by my press-out of the dough, no matter what the temp is.


What factors are coming in to play in this situation?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on December 16, 2010, 10:50:09 PM
Jose,
Stay tuned.  I'll be making a few of these this weekend for my sons birthday party.

Matt

Matt,

I will stay tuned.  I am also anxious to see your creations.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on December 16, 2010, 11:00:55 PM
I can also control the spring closely by my press-out of the dough, no matter what the temp is.

It would be a tremendous public service if you could communicate how you do that.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Tscarborough on December 16, 2010, 11:41:51 PM
No problem.  I do not throw my dough, it is too wet.  It never leaves the surface of the bench other than when I fluff it (lift an edge) to get air under it.  I only press the dough out from the edges, leaving the center alone after the initial punch down.  For a puffy crust, I do not touch the outer 3/4", for thin crust I punch it out to the rim.  I work the dough cold, straight from the cold ferment. 

As an example of the timing, I put a pizza in the oven, pull a dough from the tupperware*, turn the pie in the oven, punch out the dough on the bench to about half the final size, de-pan the pizza in the oven, finish the dough on the bench, turn the pie in the oven, move the dough from the bench to a pan, turn the pie in the oven, sauce the dough, pull the pie in the oven to a cooling rack, finish the pie on the pan, put it in the oven, and move the racked pie to the cutting board. Total time about 4 minutes.


*The dough, even in an oiled tupperware, is still wet.  I amply flour the edges and push down all the way around to release the dough, then flip it upside down into my (floured) hand, then turn it back rightside up onto the (heavily floured) bench.  By the numbers, the dough is around 85% at first proofing, 76% after fermenting, and probably 70% when I press it into shape.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on December 17, 2010, 07:15:00 AM
Matt,

I will stay tuned.  I am also anxious to see your creations.  :)

Norma


Matt: Awesome- I look forward to the write-up and-or pics.


It'll be my first time doing an 80% hydration dough in the spiral.  Maybe a good excuse to make another video.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Pete-zza on December 17, 2010, 08:42:30 AM
Pete, as someone who cooks on a pan for about half the cook time and also uses a high hydration dough (75-80%), usually in the temperature range of 800 ambient, with a 700-750 floor, I notice that most of the spring takes place on the pan (i.e. in the first 40-50 seconds), not after I de-pan it to the floor.  I can also control the spring closely by my press-out of the dough, no matter what the temp is.


What factors are coming in to play in this situation?

Tscarborough,

I don't work at the temperatures you mentioned, but I believe that it is the high temperatures in your case that is responsible for the results you have been getting. In my standard uinmodified electric home oven operating at normal temperatures of around 500-525 degrees F, if I were to use a pan or disk to bake a pizza, the oven spring would most likely to be less than what I would get using my preheated pizza stone because the pan or disk has to heat up first before the pizza can start to bake. I once tried to get past that problem by preheating my dark anodized disk to get it up to the oven temperature but the disk warped during the preheat, so that ended that experiment.

I believe that the reason why most of the rise in your case occurs before "decking" the pizza onto the oven floor is because the dough has reached the temperature where the yeast dies and the starches have pretty much gelatinized. You can see the sequence of the events and temperatures during baking at Reply 193 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11044.msg101774/topicseen.html#msg101774. In my oven, it would take longer for the pizza crust to reach the various temperatures mentioned in Reply 193.

Peter

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Pete-zza on December 17, 2010, 08:53:00 AM
JLP,

I have made doughs, such as the Papa John's and Papa Gino's clone doughs, where I did not want a large, bulbous rim, so I pressed the edges of the skins down as much as I could to achieve that result. That worked for my standard unmodified electric home oven. However, at higher temperatures, such as the temperatures of a wood-fired oven, apparently that does not always work. Bill/SFNM made that point in Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11981.msg111858.html#msg111858.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Tscarborough on December 17, 2010, 09:25:40 AM
Thanks, Pete, that makes perfect sense.

Re: Rim size at high heat.  The difference is not as pronounced as it is in the kitchen oven, but there is a definite difference.  I do not pound the dough, though, I press it out, which I assume removes more air than just beating it or rolling it.  I did these two last night, one puffy and one pressed out but the pics came out really badly:
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on December 18, 2010, 08:36:33 AM
I mixed up a batch of dough this morning with the spiral mixer @ 77% hydration.  If you are interested, I posted a short video at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10884.new.html#new

Below is a picture of the finished dough for my pizza romana in teglia.  Next step is to refrigerate for 24hours in the vegetable compartment of the fridge.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on December 18, 2010, 09:10:53 AM
Tscarborough & Pete-zza: Thanks for the tips.

Matt: Spiral mixer, that is so hardcore- am I right to suspect you're going to go pro soon?

-JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on December 18, 2010, 09:15:23 AM
Matt: Spiral mixer, that is so hardcore- am I right to suspect you're going to go pro soon?

-JLP

Still maintaining my amateur status for now. ;)

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jackie Tran on December 18, 2010, 11:17:46 AM
Thanks, Pete, that makes perfect sense.

Re: Rim size at high heat.  The difference is not as pronounced as it is in the kitchen oven, but there is a definite difference.  I do not pound the dough, though, I press it out, which I assume removes more air than just beating it or rolling it.  I did these two last night, one puffy and one pressed out but the pics came out really badly:

Tscarborough, I try not to say that a pizza looks really really great unless I really really think so.  In this case the first picture you have provided is a really good looking pizza to my eye.  I recognize some really desireable crust characteristics on that pizza.  It just looks right to me.  It looks to have that proper pizza crust look to it.  Do you happen to have some crumb shots of this particular pie?  Anything memorable about it?  How was the taste and texture? or was it just another one of your pies.   Good job! 

Chau
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on December 18, 2010, 11:48:58 AM
Here are a few semi-illuminating articles on Pizzarium and the Roman pizza al taglio scene in general:

http://www.parlafood.com/daily-food-photo-pizzariums-anchovy-pizza/ (http://www.parlafood.com/daily-food-photo-pizzariums-anchovy-pizza/)

http://www.parlafood.com/a-guide-to-romes-boutique-pizzerias/ (http://www.parlafood.com/a-guide-to-romes-boutique-pizzerias/)

http://www.parlafood.com/rome-pizza-stefano-callegari-gabriele-bonci/ (http://www.parlafood.com/rome-pizza-stefano-callegari-gabriele-bonci/)

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Tscarborough on December 18, 2010, 12:54:34 PM
Thank you, Sir.  I do not know how it tasted and no more pictures.  I was cooking for the Wife's book club meeting, i.e. drink wine and gossip group, and they devoured them as quick as I could pump them out.  It is my "normal" dough though, I just left more to rise than usual when I made the skin.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on December 18, 2010, 01:11:21 PM
If anyone is interested here is where I posted some videos from Pizzarium and pictures at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg86813.html#msg86813

and this is when I was trying to make a pizza like Pizzarium. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg88104.html#msg88104

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on December 19, 2010, 08:19:24 PM
Norma: Thanks for the links.

Everyone: Here is an effort at a Roman-type pie made with a fairly heavily-hydrated dough (around 75%). It was topped w/ crushed tomatoes, onions, 'shrooms, pickled halpenos, and green olives, and baked at 450 for 16 minutes. A very tasty piece. The crumb was outstanding in its openness, fully on a par with what I've seen from Pizzarium (unfortunately, the pics I took turned out to be unsalvageably overexposed). It was also very soft- to the point of being doughy- and I don't think it would have stood up to an amount of topping any heavier than what I used. I'm starting to think that something around 68-70% hydration is optimal for the home baker using bread flour.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on December 19, 2010, 08:56:03 PM
Norma: Thanks for the links.

Everyone: Here is an effort at a Roman-type pie made with a fairly heavily-hydrated dough (around 75%). It was topped w/ crushed tomatoes, onions, 'shrooms, pickled halpenos, and green olives, and baked at 450 for 16 minutes. A very tasty piece. The crumb was outstanding in its openness, fully on a par with what I've seen from Pizzarium (unfortunately, the pics I took turned out to be unsalvageably overexposed). It was also very soft- to the point of being doughy- and I don't think it would have stood up to an amount of topping any heavier than what I used. I'm starting to think that something around 68-70% hydration is optimal for the home baker using bread flour.

JLP

JLP,

Your pie looks tasty.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on December 19, 2010, 10:53:21 PM
JLP,

Your pie looks tasty.  :)

Norma

The 8 year-aged pickled jalapenos my bro gave me helped a lot in the tastiness department :)

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on December 20, 2010, 06:15:14 AM
Nice job Jose. 
Here are the one's that I made for my son's birthday yesterday using the dough previously posted.
Unfortunately I didn't get any crumb shots, but it was a beautiful open & airy crumb. 
The dough was extremely soft & extensible making it quite challenging to work with. 
The following video is a perfect example of how soft this dough really is.  I used the same method illustrated in the video to shape & transfer the dough to the pan. http://www.youtube.com/user/pizzeriabosco#p/u/9/24RY9Zc5Ldo

Matt





Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on December 20, 2010, 07:22:46 AM
Matt,

Your pies for your sonís birthday look awesome!  ;D You did a great job.  I also enjoyed watching the video you posted.  I wonder if you can tell me what kind of pans you used to bake those pies?

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on December 20, 2010, 07:25:41 AM
Matt,

Your pies for your sonís birthday look awesome!  ;D You did a great job.  I also enjoyed watching the video you posted.  I wonder if you can tell me what kind of pans you used to bake those pies?

Norma

Thanks Norma.  They are heavy guage non stick aluminum pans. 

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on December 20, 2010, 07:32:15 AM


They are heavy guage non stick aluminum pans. 

Matt

Thanks Matt!  :)
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on December 20, 2010, 11:55:07 AM
Nice-looking quartet of pies there, Matt.

Re: the video: I also use that method of shaping/transferring dough now (I saw Gabriele demonstrate it on a video clip from some Italian cooking show). The dough in the video sure is soft, alright- look at the way he effortlessly adjusts the dough to the sides and corners of the pan without any resistance at all, as though he was straightening out a bedsheet or something. My own dough (made with IDY and risen in a warm oven for about 3 hours after having sat on the counter for 1 hour), was soft, but pretty far from effortlessly extensible; I fought with the corners for about 10 minutes and the pie still had an oval shape in the end. I guess I've reached the limitations of an afternoon dough here, and will finally have to try a longer fermentation time in the future.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on December 20, 2010, 12:06:37 PM
Thanks Jose. That's the exact extensibility that my dough had. Absolutely no resistance whatsoever. I did 24 hours bulk & then an additional 4 hours at 80 degrees.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on December 20, 2010, 05:22:11 PM
Thanks Jose. That's the exact extensibility that my dough had. Absolutely no resistance whatsoever. I did 24 hours bulk & then an additional 4 hours at 80 degrees.

Matt

Matt - This has really sparked my interest. I have to try this one out. You are getting some beautiful results.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: BrickStoneOven on December 24, 2010, 11:27:23 AM
I saw this video and thought you guys might like it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVWJpE9QBlk
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on December 25, 2010, 03:13:50 PM
That's the one in Seoul, Korea.

I appreciate that the Roman pizza is freestyle when it comes to toppings- but the ranch-dressing pie is just :o and wrong...

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: buceriasdon on December 25, 2010, 08:28:46 PM
I'm having ranch dressing with hot marinaded chicken and onion tonight myself. One of my favorites.
Don



That's the one in Seoul, Korea.

I appreciate that the Roman pizza is freestyle when it comes to toppings- but the ranch-dressing pie is just :o and wrong...

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on December 26, 2010, 09:23:03 PM
Latest experiment. I had to make adjustments to the level of the hydration of this dough on the fly, but based on its handling characteristics I'm guessing it was around 68%. Same flour, yeast, and salt as the last one, but the oil was decreased from 6 to 5%. It was also kneaded for about 2/3 the time. Baked at 450 for ?? minutes (lost track of the time).

This pizza was much more civil than its predecessor when it came to forming; fitting it to the pan was like making a bed, except for one corner that gave me a bit of trouble. Unfortunately, its easy-going nature came at the expense of the openness of its crumb and above all, its digestibility (right now, the slices I ate are sitting in my gut like a rock, even in the face of several after-dinner whiskey drinks). Clearly, the gluten wasn't developed enough. It was great in every other way, though.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on December 26, 2010, 09:23:25 PM
Crumb shot.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jackie Tran on December 26, 2010, 09:44:57 PM
JLP - nice looking pizza and crumb.  One thing I'm not understanding is that you say that the pizza wasn't as digestible b/c the gluten wasn't developed enough.  I don't know anything about this topic but would think the opposite.  I would think that digestibility would decrease as gluten development increases if it is affected by it at all.  I recall reading last week a discussion whereby digestibility of a dough was mainly affected by length of fermentation.   Weaker protein flours and longer fermented doughs seem to be more digestible.  How long did you ferment this dough?  Also in your other thread you mentioned the BF you are using is really coarse.  Perhaps switching to 100% AP flour may help with the digestibility issue. 

Peter talks about digestibility here at reply #2
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8986.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8986.0.html)

And again in reply #30
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12542.20.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12542.20.html)

Thanks Peter and Marco.

Chau
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on December 26, 2010, 11:04:31 PM
Good point Chau. What I really meant to say is that the dough wasn't really strong enough to support its toppings, so most of the finished pizza was kind of squashy and dense (N.B. the crumb shot in the pic was taken from the best of its six slices). I've learned the hard way that a squashed and dense crumb almost always yields a gutbuster. Thus the gluten development was indeed the cause (fermentation time was the same for this one as for all my pies, i.e. about 4 hours in a warm oven), but only an *indirect* cause.

I'm thinking that maybe more heat (say, 500 for this dough) would force the oven spring and the formation of voids. Thoughts?

JLP

[EDIT: Canadian bread and AP flours are more similar to one another than their American counterparts are AFAIK, e.g. both have the same protein content. I haven't noticed any substantial difference between Canadian bread flour and AP, or blends thereof, where digestibility is concerned where the doughs are comparably made and developed]
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on December 27, 2010, 06:22:41 AM
Good point Chau. What I really meant to say is that the dough wasn't really strong enough to support its toppings, so most of the finished pizza was kind of squashy and dense (N.B. the crumb shot in the pic was taken from the best of its six slices). I've learned the hard way that a squashed and dense crumb almost always yields a gutbuster. Thus the gluten development was indeed the cause (fermentation time was the same for this one as for all my pies, i.e. about 4 hours in a warm oven), but only an *indirect* cause.

I'm thinking that maybe more heat (say, 500 for this dough) would force the oven spring and the formation of voids. Thoughts?

JLP

[EDIT: Canadian bread and AP flours are more similar to one another than their American counterparts are AFAIK, e.g. both have the same protein content. I haven't noticed any substantial difference between Canadian bread flour and AP, or blends thereof, where digestibility is concerned where the doughs are comparably made and developed]

Jose,
A nice job, your TF seems to be spot on.  A cold fermentation of minimum 24 hours is essential with this formula as is continually stretching & folding in 1/2 hour intervals for at least 2 hours during the initial bulk fermentation stage & then a couple more times during the bulk.  You should keep folding until your dough has quite a bit of resistance & nice body.  I also find that an additional fold or 2 during the mid stages of the bulk fermentation is beneficial as it evens out the internal dough temperature.  I also think that it's necessary to do an individual rise after the initial bulk.  I shape the dough into tight cylinders & let proof for an additional 4-5 hours prior to using.  The end result should be a very soft delicate dough that should be pre formed extremely gently on a well flour board & then quickly & gently transferred to a light oiled pan.  You should be able to easily pull & not press the dough into shape with zero springback.  I am not sure that Robin hood & 5 Roses are the best flour choice.  If you don't have access to any restaurant/bakery supply warehouses then try Presidents Choice organic flour; it is much better than the aforementioned.

Best of Luck.

Matthew

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on December 27, 2010, 10:20:03 AM
Jose,

That is a nice looking pizza you made yesterday.   :)  You thickness factor looks just right, as Matt posted.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on December 27, 2010, 11:15:09 AM
Matt: Just a few questions about your process: How long does each folding interval last (or alternately, about how many folds are involved)? What is the function of rolling the dough into a tight cylinder after the initial bulk? Finally, what kind of flour are you using? (I sure agree that the Robin Hood and Five Roses flours are pretty lousy).

Norma: Thanks :) I used the dough calculator to arrive at a thickness factor of .13 for this pie. The area that got compressed by the toppings was considerably thinner.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on December 27, 2010, 11:35:35 AM
Matt: Just a few questions about your process: How long does each folding interval last (or alternately, about how many folds are involved)? What is the function of rolling the dough into a tight cylinder after the initial bulk? Finally, what kind of flour are you using? (I sure agree that the Robin Hood and Five Roses flours are pretty lousy).

JLP

That's a really tough question to answer.  The amount of folds required will vary based on how well the gluten developed during the initial mix; it could be a couple or it could be several.  You will notice that the dough's strength will increase with each fold.  The individual shaping & secondary rise serves the exact same purpose as when making regular pizza.  I form it in a cylindrical shape instead of round because the end result will be a rectangle.  I use Pure Gold Flour by New Life Mills.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on December 27, 2010, 11:33:34 PM
Next experiment, in progress. I've finally screwed up the courage to essay another effort in the 85% hydration range, almost a year after my initial, catastrophic foray into the world of super-wet doughs. The formula is roughly as follows:

Flour: 100% (Robin Hood BF, which for all its vices is certainly strong enough for the task)
Water: 85%
IDY: 0.3%
Salt: 2%
Oil: 3.65%

The calculated TF was .12 (it was just easier to formulate the dough that way for the pan I'm going to use), so I'm expecting it to turn out more like a Grandma pie in the thickness department.

I put the flour into the mixer, then the water, IDY, salt, and oil, in that order, and then ran it for about 10 minutes until the ball cleaned the bottom. Took it out, hand-kneaded for about 3 minutes, then let it sit for 25 minutes. Hand kneaded it again for under 4 minutes, rested another 25, hand-kneaded another 3, then put it in the fridge.

My first effort with an 85% dough was a complete trainwreck, an amorphous chaos of nonsense, but this one was a definitely a dough and not a batter- and additionally I could feel it developing more and more structure with each manipulation. During the final hand-knead, it became considerably stickier than it was in the first two for some reason. Anyhow, by the time the kneading was finished it reminded me of some super-soft polymer plastics: malleable and a bit jelly-like, but very strong and resistant to being seriously deformed or broken by human hands.

It's going to stay in the fridge for at least 24 hours, and I'll take the rest up from there. I get the feeling that even the weight of the water won't be able to prevent some nasty springback with this one, but I'll worry about that later.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on December 28, 2010, 08:21:56 AM
I have an experiment running as well, my first try with this type of pizza - although I have eaten it many times, and lived on the stuff while in Rome. The formula is based on reading reams of info in this thread, the Quest for Pizza Pomodoro, and the Pizza Sfincione one, but mainly from a recipe Matt posted very early on here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg87025.html#msg87025

The flour is 50/50 Caputo 00 and KAAP. My pans are 15 x 10, making two balls.

Flour:    715.21 g | 25.23 oz | 1.58 lbs (100%)
Water:    541.14 g | 19.09 oz | 1.19 lbs (70%)
Salt:            21.19 g | 0.75 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.41 tsp | 1.47 tbsp (2.8%)
Pref:            83.25 g | 2.94 oz | 0.18 lbs (11%)
Total:    1360.8 g | 48 oz | 3 lbs  | TF = 0.16

Mixed on low for a minute or so, rested for about 10, then mixed on medium for around 7 minutes. I then put it in a tub, and over the course of the next 6 hours did 6 Tartine-style turns at 65 degrees room temp. After 24 hours it was divided and shaped, and will sit another 10 or so before baking (or sooner if need be).

It feels very elastic and I had no trouble shaping. I think that by using Caputo I have stacked the deck against myself, but so far the dough has good strength. Any comments or suggestions about how I should change things up are welcome. I will post bake results tonight.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on December 28, 2010, 10:21:35 AM
Dellavecchia: If it interests you, in the "Pizza in Teglia" thread (response 10) a forum member posted a write-up and pics of one he made with 85% Caputo and 15% semolina.

I'd be extremely interested in, and would greatly appreciate, any description you would care to provide concerning the average characteristics of this type of pizza in Rome, in particular how the bottom tends to turn out.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jet_deck on December 28, 2010, 12:25:30 PM
There is a short upskirt at 8:26 and 8:46 here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnV47xWplXo&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnV47xWplXo&feature=related)

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on December 28, 2010, 12:40:04 PM
Dellavecchia: If it interests you, in the "Pizza in Teglia" thread (response 10) a forum member posted a write-up and pics of one he made with 85% Caputo and 15% semolina.

I'd be extremely interested in, and would greatly appreciate, any description you would care to provide concerning the average characteristics of this type of pizza in Rome, in particular how the bottom tends to turn out.

JLP

JLP - From what I remember (2005), the bottom was slightly crisp/crunchy at its best, and soggy at it's worst. It varied form place to place.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on December 28, 2010, 05:05:47 PM
I got pretty good results. The caputo took forever to brown, no surprise there, so things got a little "crunchy". But overall it was a really flavorful dough and a great way to make pizza. It was close in texture to what I remember in Rome, but more crunchy. I need some more practice trying to get the dough in the pan as well - very difficult.

Next time I will try adding oil in the recipe, do more time in the mixer, and a longer ferment. I want really big bubbles and a super puffy middle. Maybe I need to up the hydration as well. Any advice appreciated.

10 minutes par bake at 500, added toppings, then under the broiler for around 7-10 minutes.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jackie Tran on December 28, 2010, 05:48:04 PM
John, nice job on your first try with caputo no less.    :D  You all make me wanna make one of these.  Perhaps this coming weekend.  John curious as to why you choose caputo over BF or HG flour? 
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on December 28, 2010, 06:00:43 PM
John, nice job on your first try with caputo no less.    :D  You all make me wanna make one of these.  Perhaps this coming weekend.  John curious as to why you choose caputo over BF or HG flour? 

Chau - I really just did not have any bread flour on hand and only enough AP to accommodate 50% of the flour. Although I would love to make it work with this style of pizza, I think I need to cut it out of the mix. It is just not strong enough.

If you make one this weekend, try and shoot for really big bubbles and see what you get. Apparently this style can tolerate up to 72 hours of room temp ferment.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on December 28, 2010, 08:05:48 PM
The crumb on that pizza is impressive in and of itself, and incredible considering how soft the flour mix was. Did the use of preferment contribute to that result in your opinion?

***

There is a short upskirt at 8:26 and 8:46 here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnV47xWplXo&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnV47xWplXo&feature=related)

That is one awesome video. The bottom is charred, but it also seems quite supple and non-crispy judging by the way the scissors cut into it.

The production company provided the following recipe in the uploader's comments, which I'll reproduce here:

Flour (Tipo 0): 1 kg.
Water: 800 gr.
Salt: 12 gr.
Powdered beer yeast: 7 gr.
EVO: 1 spoonful

Refridgerate for 24 hours.

I have no idea about using beer yeast in pizza dough (and indeed didn't even know it was possible). As to the EVO, presumably, the spoon they're referring to is a tablespoon; it doesn't seem like a whole lot of oil for a dough with a kilo of flour. Most strikingly of all, there's only 1.2% salt. All intriguing stuff...

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on December 28, 2010, 09:31:15 PM
John,

Your first attempt went well!   :)  Your crumb looks so airy and moist. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on December 29, 2010, 05:11:48 AM
The crumb on that pizza is impressive in and of itself, and incredible considering how soft the flour mix was. Did the use of preferment contribute to that result in your opinion?

***

That is one awesome video. The bottom is charred, but it also seems quite supple and non-crispy judging by the way the scissors cut into it.

The production company provided the following recipe in the uploader's comments, which I'll reproduce here:

Flour (Tipo 0): 1 kg.
Water: 800 gr.
Salt: 12 gr.
Powdered beer yeast: 7 gr.
EVO: 1 spoonful

Refridgerate for 24 hours.

I have no idea about using beer yeast in pizza dough (and indeed didn't even know it was possible). As to the EVO, presumably, the spoon they're referring to is a tablespoon; it doesn't seem like a whole lot of oil for a dough with a kilo of flour. Most strikingly of all, there's only 1.2% salt. All intriguing stuff...

JLP

Jose,
You can most definitely use cake yeast; I always do, just triple the qty of IDY.  The formula you posted was similar to the one that I used in my previous effort.  I found the yeast to be a little high so I cut it down for the batch that I made up yesterday.  Gabriele rationale for using dried yeast over fresh because it's guaranteed/consistent.  He explains that with fresh yeast you don't know what kind of life that it has lived & if it has not been handled correctly it will affect your results.  I personally prefer fresh over dried & have never had any issues.  You can tell its viability by the colour & the smell.  I buy a small cube, cut it up in 20 grams portions & vacuum seal it & it lasts quite a while.  Ultimately he recommends using a mother dough.  The one that he uses was given to him by a family who cultivated it shortly after WWII.  The main problem with a mother dough for the part time baker is that it requires alot of work to keep it viable if you don't use it regularly.  The next best thing is using a liquid culture to make a sponge.  It will last up to a month in the fridge & when its finished you can easily make another batch.  Of the 3 starters that I currently use only one would work well under cold refrigeration but it would overpower the dough.  I am searching for a mild starter that will work well under refrigeration with a relatively short fermentation window.  I'll post the results from yesterdays batch later on today once I pull it out of the oven.  I'll get some crumb shots this time.  The spoon full of oil that he describes is infact a tablespoon (una cucchiaia).

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on December 29, 2010, 07:39:04 AM
This is the current batch; 80% hydration, 15/85 Semola to Manitoba.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on December 29, 2010, 07:41:55 AM
This is the current batch; 80% hydration, 15/85 Semola to Manitoba.

Matt,

Your dough in your current batch does look nice!   :)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on December 29, 2010, 10:31:00 AM
I have some questions regarding this dough:

1. I do not remember the crust being very tangy (if at all) when I was in Rome, yet from the Pizzeria Bosco videos posted here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12605.msg121586.html#msg121586 the dough has massive fermentation bubbles and looks way, way overblown. It the goal to get the super strength/gluten development without the starter/yeast turning it into sourdough over the course of 48 or more hours?

2. What is the stage I should be looking for when mixing: when the slack batter becomes almost stiff enough to become a cohesive dough? In my KA, that may be over 10 minutes - which I am hesitantly questioning as too much mixing.

3. Is it standard practice to par-bake and then top, no matter what the ingredient? (Obviously mozz will go on later to avoid excessive browning.)

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on December 29, 2010, 11:24:12 AM
I have some questions regarding this dough:

1. I do not remember the crust being very tangy (if at all) when I was in Rome, yet from the Pizzeria Bosco videos posted here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12605.msg121586.html#msg121586 the dough has massive fermentation bubbles and looks way, way overblown. It the goal to get the super strength/gluten development without the starter/yeast turning it into sourdough over the course of 48 or more hours?

2. What is the stage I should be looking for when mixing: when the slack batter becomes almost stiff enough to become a cohesive dough? In my KA, that may be over 10 minutes - which I am hesitantly questioning as too much mixing.

3. Is it standard practice to par-bake and then top, no matter what the ingredient? (Obviously mozz will go on later to avoid excessive browning.)

John

John,
The tang will be relative to the amount of starter used as well as the relative sourness of the starter/mother dough.  There are a few starters out there that hardly impart any flavor at all & their only job is leavening.  I know that Gabriele uses a mother dough but I don't think that Massimo from Bosco does. 

The way I mix is by holding back 20% of the formula water & then adding it once the gluten has been moderately developed.  The dough becomes extremely wet & losses its shape relatively quickly.  The idea is to continue to mix until it comes together as a single mass.  Not an easy feat using a planetary mixer as the dough will overheat fairly quickly.  To combat this use cold (4 deg) water & cold flour.  To shelter your yeast from the cold water blend it with the flour.  Once I am satisfied with the mix I do a series of rigeneri at 15 minute intervals to dry the dough out a bit.

Par baking is standard practice as is starting the baking on the bottom shelf & then moving to the upper oven shelf.  A good cheese to use is treccia which is basically fresh mozzarella with a much lower water content.  The other advantage of using a treccia is that it can be pulled apart in stringy strands.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on December 29, 2010, 12:21:43 PM
Matt: Do you have any thoughts on the low amount of salt in the RAI recipe? If I understand correctly, less salt means faster yeast action. So I'm thinking that maybe the concept here is for all of the fermentation to take place in the refigerator, thus enabling the person at home to just take the dough out of the fridge and use it without spending another several hours bringing it to room temp. If I'm right, presumably the rationale is that this would be both more convient for the average viewer in terms of time, and moreover that when cold the dough would be a lot easier for the average viewer with little technique or practice to handle without ruining it.

John: I suppose a lot depends on technique, flour, ovens, etc- but if you do parbake, beware of uncontrolled oven spring and bubbling. A few weeks back I tried a parbake with this one dough I made and within about 4 minutes it looked like some kind of geological scale model of a hill formation or something. (Somehow I still managed to sauce and top the pie and salvage it). I have also experienced deflation of a par-baked dough upon being topped and have heard similar accounts from others, although I think (at least, in my case) that with adequate gluten formation it shouldn't be a problem.

JLP   
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on December 29, 2010, 12:49:41 PM
Matt: Do you have any thoughts on the low amount of salt in the RAI recipe? If I understand correctly, less salt means faster yeast action. So I'm thinking that maybe the concept here is for all of the fermentation to take place in the refigerator, thus enabling the person at home to just take the dough out of the fridge and use it without spending another several hours bringing it to room temp. If I'm right, presumably the rationale is that this would be both more convient for the average viewer in terms of time, and moreover that when cold the dough would be a lot easier for the average viewer with little technique or practice to handle without ruining it.

JLP   

Most definitely.  I think that the formula is a universal one that can be adapted by the masses.  A more experienced pizza make can modify the formula to suit his/her regimen.  As far as the parbaking goes, you are right.  I personally only parbake when making a margherita so that the cheese doesn't burn.  With all other types I put the cheese on the bottom.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on December 29, 2010, 03:27:40 PM
The finished product & of course a couple of boule's for good measure.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on December 29, 2010, 03:37:11 PM
The finished product & of course a couple of boule's for good measure.

Matt

Matt,

Your crumb structure looks fantastic!  ;D  I would have liked to try a slice. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on December 29, 2010, 03:47:12 PM
Matt,

Your crumb structure looks fantastic!  ;D  I would have liked to try a slice. 

Norma

Come on over, It's only 672 miles away.  Take the US-15s & you'll be here in 7 hours & 39 minutes ;D

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on December 29, 2010, 04:00:25 PM
Jose and Matt - Thanks very much for the guidance. I have a game plan for my next bake this weekend. The starter I am using was cultivated naturally, and is very mild. 30 hours in and there was no noticeable tang in my above pizzas, so I think I will be set for the 48 hour ferment.

BTW - Many of the skills/techniques I learned from the Tartine Bread book are congruent and applicable with this style of pizza. Very exciting, and very satisfying to make.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jet_deck on December 29, 2010, 04:02:15 PM
They look as good if not better than any pics I have seen from Pizzarium.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on December 29, 2010, 11:16:40 PM
I think Matt's pies pretty much speak for themselves at this point. Concerning the loaves, Iíll say theyíre truly epic in their enormity- the centre, if cut properly, seems like it could yield sandwich slices as big as pizzas :-D

Here's the TL;DR write-up of my most recent experiment, to be followed by pics.

Approx. 85% hydration. I described the formula and process above. I originally planned to take it out of the fridge after 24 hours, but circumstance intervened and it wound up staying there for over 40, following which it sat at room temp for 4 more. Boy, was that dough ever soft. So soft, in fact, that I didn't feel comfortable handling it- but it turned out to be quite strong, and I really didn't need to treat it with kid gloves the way I did. It even sprung back in the pan a little bit (something I could have easily fixed, but didnít for fear of doing harm).

Here's something I learned the hard way today: when transferring the dough, don't stretch it longer than the pan. It is a lot easier to fit a slightly undersized dough to the pan than a slightly oversized one; the latter situation is really awkward to deal with. I wound up having to push dough from the end to the center with my fingertips. This caused a few huge bubbles to form on the way there, with results I'll show in the pics.

Anyways, once formed it was lightly topped (mozz, onion and hot pepper rings, and a few dollops of crushed tomato) and then baked on a stone on the low rack at 500 for about 12 minutes. The resulting pizza had an incredibly light and airy crumb. It was like eating a cloud. The pics, by themselves, donít and canít convey just how open and delicate it was. Indeed, some slices went past the point of overkill in this respect, in their mouthfeel giving the sensory impression of being hollow between top and bottom.

Unfortunately, this pie was underbaked in an odd, uneven way (the white on the cornicone isnít camera over-exposure). I doubt it could have been left in the oven any longer, since about half of the total surface area (both top and bottom) was browned perfectly and presumably would have burned if left in longer. The areas that were browned had a wafer-thin crispy outer veneer with an outstanding toasty flavor. The white areas were like wafer-thin, partly dried-out raw dough and tasted that way. Not cool at all. Provisionally, Iím going to blame the flour; if anybody can think of another cause, please let me know.

Conclusion: Making an 85% hydration dough without creating a federal disaster area in my kitchen: win. Crumb: epic win (I donít see how it could possibly be any better in terms of what I want). Overall taste and appearance: fail (Iíve been making much tastier pizzas than this one lately). 2/3.

I welcome any and all suggestions, comments, and above all critique (if I'm doing something blatantly wrong, feel absolutely free to say so; if anything, I'd be disappointed if you didn't tell me about it).

JLP


Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on December 29, 2010, 11:18:37 PM
The second pic shows what you can expect if you get any really big bubbles in your dough.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on December 29, 2010, 11:20:12 PM
Another brace of pics:
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on December 29, 2010, 11:21:24 PM
One more:
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on December 29, 2010, 11:35:51 PM
Jose,

Your recent experiment looks amazing!  ;D  I can imagine how your pie must have tasted like a cloud, by your pictures.  If you donít mind telling, what formula did you use in terms of salt, oil IDY and flour?  I can see you obtain great results with using 85% hydration in the formula.  I found it interesting that you also baked on the stone, like the last pie I tried.  Do you think baking directly on the stone does give better results?

Good job!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on December 30, 2010, 12:22:59 AM
Norma: what are the odds that the both of us would achieve the much sought-after cloud-like crumb structure within 24 hours of one another. Great minds think alike... :-D

Seriously, here's my formula:


Flour: 100% (Canadian Robin Hood BF- pretty nasty stuff)
Water: 85%
IDY: 0.3%
Salt: 2%
Oil: 3.65%

The calculated TF was .12 (it was just easier to formulate the dough that way for the pan I used- I was expecting it to turn out more like a Grandma pie in the thickness department, although with the light toppings, it sprung up way further than I thought it would)

I put the flour into the mixer, then the water, IDY, salt, and oil, in that order, and then ran it for about 10 minutes until the ball cleaned the bottom. Took it out, hand-kneaded for about 3 minutes, then let it sit for 25 minutes. Hand kneaded it again for under 4 minutes, rested another 25, hand-kneaded another 3, then put it in the fridge.

It then sat in the fridge for over 40 hours, and was warmed at room temp for about 4 more.

As to the stone: I think that if I try it again I'll put the stone in the middle rack, since part of the bottom was browning ahead of the the top. Now that I think about it, if it hadn't been on the bottom rack I might have been able to keep it in the oven for a few minutes longer. I might even get rid of the stone altogether in the future. I might also crank the oven up to 550. A few more experiments are in order here.


JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on December 30, 2010, 05:50:13 AM
They look as good if not better than any pics I have seen from Pizzarium.

Thanks JD, quite the compliment.   Gabriele is the true master; he is to Pizza Romana what Enzo Cacialli was to Pizza Napoletana.  My best friend & his wife were over & both said that it was the best pizza & bread that they had ever eaten.  I sent the rest home with them so that I have an excuse to make another batch.  The cremini & truffle oil pizza was a huge hit even at the last party.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on December 30, 2010, 05:56:30 AM
Jose,
Great job bud, what didn't you like about the flavor?  I think that once you find a high quality flour you'll be alot happier.  Look for something completely free of any additives except for enrichment which is mandatory for flour made & sold in Canada.  If you can add a little Italian Semola as well it add to the softness.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on December 30, 2010, 07:32:19 AM
Jose - Beautiful crumb! That is exactly what I am after.

I am not an expert, but concerning the under done spots - since your pie is such a high hydration, would it make sense to cook it at a lower temp (450-475) for a longer period of time to dry out the dough? I have no idea if it would work. You might even want to place the pan on a heated stone to help with evaporation.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on December 30, 2010, 07:46:33 AM
Norma: what are the odds that the both of us would achieve the much sought-after cloud-like crumb structure within 24 hours of one another. Great minds think alike... :-D

Seriously, here's my formula:


Flour: 100% (Canadian Robin Hood BF- pretty nasty stuff)
Water: 85%
IDY: 0.3%
Salt: 2%
Oil: 3.65%

The calculated TF was .12 (it was just easier to formulate the dough that way for the pan I used- I was expecting it to turn out more like a Grandma pie in the thickness department, although with the light toppings, it sprung up way further than I thought it would)

I put the flour into the mixer, then the water, IDY, salt, and oil, in that order, and then ran it for about 10 minutes until the ball cleaned the bottom. Took it out, hand-kneaded for about 3 minutes, then let it sit for 25 minutes. Hand kneaded it again for under 4 minutes, rested another 25, hand-kneaded another 3, then put it in the fridge.

It then sat in the fridge for over 40 hours, and was warmed at room temp for about 4 more.

As to the stone: I think that if I try it again I'll put the stone in the middle rack, since part of the bottom was browning ahead of the the top. Now that I think about it, if it hadn't been on the bottom rack I might have been able to keep it in the oven for a few minutes longer. I might even get rid of the stone altogether in the future. I might also crank the oven up to 550. A few more experiments are in order here.


JLP

Jose,

I donít know what the odds are that both of us would achieve about the same much sought-after cloud-like crumb structure within 24 hours, but the odds must have been slim.   ;D
Thanks for your formula and what protocol you used.  I am also going to try some more experiments.
 
I will put a link here to the pizza I made on Tuesday at Reply 196  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg121720.html#msg121720 and the following replies, since we are all trying to make the same kind of pizza.

These videos helped me learn how a pizza in teglia dough should look.
pizzeriabosco YouTube videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY7x2ffGJ1w

I think if anyone is interested, this link should go though all the videos of pizzeriabosco if you keep watching.  In the one video it shows pizzeriabosco buying Caputo flour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK4A7f-avEs&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

Does anyone know where pizzeriabosco pizzeria is located?

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: ninapizza23 on December 30, 2010, 01:42:27 PM
JLP,

it looks like your pizza should have cooked longer. As soon as you see that initial spring and a little toasting in the bottom, move your tray up and reduce the heat and let it cook for about 20min.
You can also cook this type of dough on the stone without the tray if you have a good rectangular peel and long. As soon as I have a little bit of time I will send you a pix.
Massimo from pizzeria Bosco is a friend of mine and a very honest and hard working guy. He won some Campionato di Pizza. He makes some round classic pizzas also that are really exceptional.
Keep trying and you'll get there soon.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on December 30, 2010, 04:28:50 PM
Thanks for the kind words and suggestions everybody.

Matt: What I didn't like about the flavour was that it was just too bland due to the underbake. Had it browned evenly I think it would have been outstanding. I'm definitely going to get rid of the flour in the future. I'm looking into the Milanaise brand, which is a locally-milled premium organic flour with very widespread distribution around here. If you know or have heard anything about it, let me know.

John: The idea of a longer bake time at a lower temp does make sense- but on the other hand I worry about it drying out too much and turning too crunchy. I guess putting it to experiment some time in the future is the only way I'll find out for sure.

Norma: Bosco is located in Tempio Pausiana, in Sardinia.

Nina: Moving it up after the initial oven spring sounds very sensible. With respect to reducing the temp and baking it longer, I'm open to trying that, as I've said already. But do you think it might also work if I went in the opposite direction and baked it at 550 instead of 500? (The reason I ask is because I noticed in one of the Bosco videos, his oven was set at 300 C., which translates to 572 F).

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on December 30, 2010, 04:42:11 PM
Jose,

I am not nina, but I did bake my last pizza on the stone at around 565 degrees F and that method seemed to work for me at market.  I think like you do, that a shorter bake would give a moister crumb.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on December 30, 2010, 05:32:38 PM
Jose,
FWIW I have a 48" gas stove & I did my entire bake on the bottom rack at 550 & got very nice browning on the bottom as well as the top.  I do occasionally move to the upper rack for the last few minutes of baking at the same temperature.  Lowering the temperature will increase baking time which will/can lead to a hard crust.  I think that the ideal pizza romana should have a slightly crispy exterior & a soft light interior.  Unlike others, I don't claim to be the expert/authoritarian on pizza romana & all my findings are based on personal experience & not advice sought from experts.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on December 30, 2010, 07:26:07 PM
FWIW I have a 48" gas stove & I did my entire bake on the bottom rack at 550 & got very nice browning on the bottom as well as the top.

Matt - If you do not mind me asking, what is the current TF you are working with, and about how long does the bake take at that temp?

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on December 30, 2010, 08:12:03 PM
I think that the ideal pizza romana should have a slightly crispy exterior & a soft light interior.

Based on what I did, I imagine that at the 80%-90% hydration range they come out that way naturally if baked properly. Pete-zza had an explanation of the science of why high-hydration doughs tend to come out crispy somewhere, but I can't remember what it was.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Pete-zza on December 30, 2010, 08:31:03 PM
Based on what I did, I imagine that at the 80%-90% hydration range they come out that way naturally if baked properly. Pete-zza had an explanation of the science of why high-hydration doughs tend to come out crispy somewhere, but I can't remember what it was.
 

JLP,

See Reply 113 earlier in this thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg120565.html#msg120565 but see also Tom Lehmann's PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=45476#p45476.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on December 30, 2010, 10:04:03 PM
I started another dough today and am going to use a little bit of a different approach.  I made a smaller dough and have left the poolish part ferment.  I am now going to let the poolish in the refrigerator for at least a day and then mix the poolish into the final dough.  I then want to let the dough sit at room temperature to proof for at least another day.  I donít know how this approach will work.  I decided to try this approach since pizzanapoletana posted this at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1073.msg9752.html#msg9752 about making a poolish first and putting it into the refrigerator for 10-11 hours.  I donít know how will work out because I plan on letting the dough sit at room temperature for about a day.  I plan on baking this in my home oven.

This is the formula I am using.  If anyone thinks my IDY is too much for this formula, let me know.  I did put part of the IDY in the poolish part of the formula.

Sorry, I have the wrong date on the formula.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jackie Tran on December 31, 2010, 01:03:26 AM
Folks, coming from a guy that likes to generalize and guestimate, it's near impossible to say that one baking temp/time is better or worse.  It's highly recipe dependent (protein of flour vs hydration ratio & oil), oven dependant, and even altitude dependant.   As Norma has done, I think it's a good idea to report the recipe we've used and what bake temp & time works for us and then others can use those as guidelines.  Even then, one oven can bake drastically different from another.   For example, in my Professional Viking oven it seems like all the heat comes from the above burner.  That is, I can not detect heat emminating from the lower vents.   So along with living at high altitudes, my baking temps, time, and protocol would be inherently different than others.   

The important factors I find helpful to know is the approximate hydration ratio relative to type of flour (blend) used, oil %, and overall bake time.   I can then use those as general guidelines.

Too high of a temp and too short of a bake time relative to a wet dough can yield a soggy soft and partially baked crust.   Too low of a temp and too long of a bake time relative to a drier dough can yield an overly dry crumb and a crust that is too crunchy.   I would think that finding the proper balance between baking time and how hydrated the dough is to yield a moist and tender crust would take some trial and error. 

Anyway tomorrow, I will attempt to make my first pizza romana.  Wish me luck. 8)

Chau
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on December 31, 2010, 05:43:11 AM
Matt - If you do not mind me asking, what is the current TF you are working with, and about how long does the bake take at that temp?

John

I used about 800g per 11.25 x 17 teglia which translates to just under .15.  I didn't really time the bake but I would say about 20 minutes.  I find that using convection mode gives you nice browning on the top without having to move the pans to a higher shelf.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on December 31, 2010, 05:52:34 AM
Folks, coming from a guy that likes to generalize and guestimate, it's near impossible to say that one baking temp/time is better or worse.  It's highly recipe dependent (protein of flour vs hydration ratio & oil), oven dependant, and even altitude dependant.   As Norma has done, I think it's a good idea to report the recipe we've used and what bake temp & time works for us and then others can use those as guidelines.  Even then, one oven can bake drastically different from another.   For example, in my Professional Viking oven it seems like all the heat comes from the above burner.  That is, I can not detect heat eminating from the lower vents.   So along with living at high altitudes, my baking temps, time, and protocol would be inherently different than others.   

The important factors I find helpful to know is the approximate hydration ratio relative to type of flour (blend) used, hydration ratio, oil %, and overall bake time.   I can then use those as general guidelines.

Too high of a temp and too short of a bake time relative to a wet dough can yield a wet and partially baked crust.   Too low of a temp and too long of a bake time relative to a drier dough can yield a dry crumb and a crust that is too crunchy.   I would think that finding the proper balance between baking time and how hydrated the dough is to yield a moist and tender crust would take some trial and error. 

Tomorrow, I will attempt to make my first pizza romana.  Wish me luck. 8)

Chau

I agree 100%.  In my amateur opinion, the most important thing that will make or break this dough is to properly develop the gluten.  This dough should be a mass & not a batter.  It should undergo the exact same level of gluten development as any other bread/pizza dough.  How you choose to do this is up to you.  When all else fails; use your God given tools which work just as good as any mechanical ones. 

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on December 31, 2010, 10:51:46 AM
I used about 800g per 11.25 x 17 teglia which translates to just under .15.  I didn't really time the bake but I would say about 20 minutes.  I find that using convection mode gives you nice browning on the top without having to move the pans to a higher shelf.

Matt

Thanks Matt - I believe I have the 36" version of your oven, so I am going to try this temp/position and convection for my bake tomorrow.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on December 31, 2010, 04:00:30 PM
JLP,

See Reply 113 earlier in this thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg120565.html#msg120565 but see also Tom Lehmann's PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=45476#p45476.

Peter

Dang...To think that the explanation I was was trying to remember was given in a reply to a question *I* asked, two weeks ago, and in this thread to boot- I actually couldn't remember in which subforum it was or if I read it two weeks or two years ago. I must does losing brain...uh oh...

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 01, 2011, 10:59:24 AM
My next attempt is going much better. This is 78%, 3% salt, 11% starter, and 2% oil. 85/15 Organic KABF to Caputo 00. Mixed on low for 5 minutes (minus 20% water). The rest of the water was added and hand kneaded to combine. Mixed on medium for a good 8 minutes, until the dough started to pull away from the bottom. Rested, did another medium speed mix for 5 minutes. 6 turns over 3 hours during for part of bulk at room temp. After 30 hours, balled. Will cook 10 hours after that.

The dough looks and feels much like the Bosco dough - a huge difference from the underdeveloped Caputo/AP attempt I did earlier, but still not as developed as Matt's picture shows a few posts up. I think my KA is a hinderance for this kind of dough.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 01, 2011, 05:03:47 PM
I had better results this time. The pies browned nicely in 18 minutes at 500. They were, however, still a little too crunchy on the bottom. But the oven spring was markedly improved. Now I need to make some changes to get a more tender crumb.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 01, 2011, 06:48:41 PM
Good looking pies and crumb. Which oven rack did you use, and what did the bottom look like in terms of browning?

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 01, 2011, 07:45:21 PM
John,

I agree with Jose, your pie does have a nice crumb and the whole pie looks great!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 01, 2011, 07:47:33 PM
Thanks Jose and Norma - The pie was baked in the middle rack. Browning on the bottom was noticeably darker than the top rim.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: parallei on January 01, 2011, 10:58:02 PM
Well hereís my take.  Following the thread, it seemed pretty much like the No Knead Pizza Bianca Iíd made before, but in my pre-Ischia days.  So I modified it a bit.

100 % KAAP (includes starter)
87.5 % Water (includes starter)
10% starter
2 % salt
0.5 % IDY
TF = 0.15

Mixed all water, 87.5% of flour, and starter in bowl with a spoon.  Into the fridge overnight.  In morning fold in rest of flour, salt and IDY.  Let sit at room temp for 8 hours.  Fold two times on WELL-floured bench.  Let sit for an hour then spread in lightly oiled sheet pan.  450 deg on convection for 18 minutes.

Things Iíd change:  Not quite so much topping and cook a few minutes longer.  The whole pie had mozz and smoked mozz as the first layer.

The potato topping was good.  On one of the videos, it looked like the fellow was just crumbling cooked potato on the pie.  I simmered a couple of peeled Yukon Gold until tender.  When cooled, I crumbled them by hand and mixed in some olive oil, sage, thyme and salt and pepper.  Iíd do this again.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jackie Tran on January 01, 2011, 11:18:36 PM
Here's try #2 for me.  Overall it was good but not out of this world good.  I did not achieve that super airy and super light crumb that exist in the clouds somewhere.   It was airy but not super light.  I would score my pie perhaps a 7/10.   Not too bad for a 2nd attempt and using a recipe I made up.  I will be going back to perfecting my NY-elites and will save this style for another day when I can spend my time exclusively on tweaking it.  

Ciao

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 02, 2011, 12:30:35 AM
Well hereís my take.  Following the thread, it seemed pretty much like the No Knead Pizza Bianca Iíd made before, but in my pre-Ischia days.  So I modified it a bit.

100 % KAAP (includes starter)
87.5 % Water (includes starter)
10% starter
2 % salt
0.5 % IDY
TF = 0.15

Mixed all water, 87.5% of flour, and starter in bowl with a spoon.  Into the fridge overnight.  In morning fold in rest of flour, salt and IDY.  Let sit at room temp for 8 hours.  Fold two times on WELL-floured bench.  Let sit for an hour then spread in lightly oiled sheet pan.  450 deg on convection for 18 minutes.

Things Iíd change:  Not quite so much topping and cook a few minutes longer.  The whole pie had mozz and smoked mozz as the first layer.

The potato topping was good.  On one of the videos, it looked like the fellow was just crumbling cooked potato on the pie.  I simmered a couple of peeled Yukon Gold until tender.  When cooled, I crumbled them by hand and mixed in some olive oil, sage, thyme and salt and pepper.  Iíd do this again.



Those are some awesome results to be getting with AP flour. With a bread/HG four, the results would probably be nothing short of epic.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 02, 2011, 12:40:39 AM
Here's try #2 for me.  Overall it was good but not out of this world good.  I did not achieve that super airy and super light crumb that exist in the clouds somewhere.   It was airy but not super light.  I would score my pie perhaps a 7/10.   Not too bad for a 2nd attempt and using a recipe I made up.  I will be going back to perfecting my NY-elites and will save this style for another day when I can spend my time exclusively on tweaking it.  

Ciao



You must have pizza-image disorder or something  :D. The crumb was as a light as they come. Epic win. Whatever other flaws you may feel your pie has, we can discuss....


JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 02, 2011, 06:20:32 AM
Here's try #2 for me.  Overall it was good but not out of this world good.  I did not achieve that super airy and super light crumb that exist in the clouds somewhere.   It was airy but not super light.  I would score my pie perhaps a 7/10.   Not too bad for a 2nd attempt and using a recipe I made up.  I will be going back to perfecting my NY-elites and will save this style for another day when I can spend my time exclusively on tweaking it.  

Ciao



I think you already mastered it. I also want to figure out how to make this type of pie have a super light crumb. I have some ideas for the next time that will be a completely different recipe and workflow - this one is just not working for me.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 02, 2011, 07:51:41 AM
Chau,

I agree with the others, your crust does look super light and airy, especially the second and third pictures. :)  Do you mind telling what kind of recipe you made up with the flour used?  Also, how long did you ferment the dough for those pies?

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jackie Tran on January 02, 2011, 10:03:21 AM
You must have pizza-image disorder or something  :D. The crumb was as a light as they come. Epic win. Whatever other flaws you may feel your pie has, we can discuss....
JLP

Yes I do have some sort of disorder.   I've said before that I'm my own worse critic, but believe that is necessary to achieve a better result each time.

I think you already mastered it. I also want to figure out how to make this type of pie have a super light crumb. I have some ideas for the next time that will be a completely different recipe and workflow - this one is just not working for me.

John

Far from it my friend.  IMO, this is one of the hardest styles of pizza to duplicate.   I wanted to echo your post by saying that these 2 experiments have also given me some ideas on changes that need to be made to achieve such a result.  I know how to get super light and airy but it doesn't involve these ultra high hydrations, obscene amounts of oil, or these 15-20m bake times.  I'll maybe try it again in several weeks using a formula that is close to my own NY-elite pie and make more of a sicilian than a romana pie. 

Chau
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jackie Tran on January 02, 2011, 10:27:48 AM
Chau,

I agree with the others, your crust does look super light and airy, especially the second and third pictures. :)  Do you mind telling what kind of recipe you made up with the flour used?  Also, how long did you ferment the dough for those pies?

Norma

For this pie, I used a 6 hour fermentation with...

50/50 blend of HG/00
76% HR (effective HR was closer to 80%)
20% ischia starter
0.1% IDY
2.5% salt
3% oil 

Also I forgot to answer your question the other day about the pan, but it is a regular porcelain coated roasting pan set on a hot stone.

Chau
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 02, 2011, 10:44:25 AM
I know how to get super light and airy but it doesn't involve these ultra high hydrations, obscene amounts of oil, or these 15-20m bake times.  I'll maybe try it again in several weeks using a formula that is close to my own NY-elite pie and make more of a sicilian than a romana pie. 

Chau

That sounds very interesting. Can you give some kind of preliminary indication of what you're thinking about doing right now, no matter how sketchy? (My holiday season time-window for thinking and experimenting and posting about pizza is about to close).

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 02, 2011, 11:48:06 AM
For this pie, I used a 6 hour fermentation with...

50/50 blend of HG/00
76% HR (effective HR was closer to 80%)
20% ischia starter
0.1% IDY
2.5% salt
3% oil 

Chau

Chau - Funny, I have a dough fermenting right now with almost the exact formulation you have above (only using 85% caputo/15% BF). I plan on doing the bake at the 8 hour mark, using an unconventional approach. It may be leaning a bit away from true roman pizza in teglia, but I want to see what happens to make informed decisions. I will post results.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jackie Tran on January 02, 2011, 11:51:30 AM
That sounds very interesting. Can you give some kind of preliminary indication of what you're thinking about doing right now, no matter how sketchy? (My holiday season time-window for thinking and experimenting and posting about pizza is about to close).

JLP

JLP, what I am referring to is that a super light and super airy crust can be achieved using a variety of flours, ingredients, and methods.  It can be done without oil and it can be done with a lot of oil.   For each specific flour or blend of flours there will be a protein level associated with it.  With that, there is an "ideal" hydration level that when balanced with the proper amount of gluten development and bake time and temp for such a dough will yield an unbelievable light and airy crust.   When you increase the HR beyond this magical point, you have to increase the kneading (gluten development) to get it back to that magical spot.  Add oil (particularly high amounts of it) and the problem is made worse.  With this issue comes baking time.  If you jack up the hydration ratio and add lots of oil, you must bake it longer to get that excess moisture out.  

So increasing hydration beyond that ideal amount, add in oil and you have made your goal that much harder to achieve.  Doing these things aren't really necessary IMO to achieve that super light and airy crumb.   I think we do these things b/c we are trying to emulate a style for the sake of emulation without proper knowledge or understanding.  I'm not saying I know or understand either.  Just learning like the rest of us.  

All I'm really saying is that I believe I can get an ideal result by lowering the hydration, lowering the kneading time, lowering the oil, and lowering the bake time.   But the pie or foccacia I will make (truely light and airy) may not fall neatly into the pizzarium category and would detract from this thread.   If and when I can achieve such a feat, I will return with pictures.

Chau

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jackie Tran on January 02, 2011, 11:59:12 AM
Chau - Funny, I have a dough fermenting right now with almost the exact formulation you have above (only using 85% caputo/15% BF). I plan on doing the bake at the 8 hour mark, using an unconventional approach. It may be leaning a bit away from true roman pizza in teglia, but I want to see what happens to make informed decisions. I will post results.

John

Excellent John, looking forward to your results - good luck to you.  I love your spirit of adventure.   So many of us spend so much time finding out the exact ingredients and recipes of famous pizzerias without care that we don't have the oven.  Unless you can match the recipe, the ingredients, the process, AND the oven (baking regimen) there's little hope of duplicating it exactly.  As home bakers we have no choice but to adjust accordingly but it requires a knowledge and understanding of what is going on with dough.  Otherwise we are left to trial and error without purpose or improvement. 

okay I can't let it go.  Going to mix up dough now for a foccacia test later tonight. 

Chau
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 02, 2011, 04:17:39 PM
OK - Now I am getting somewhere with duplicating what I had in Rome. See below for the experiment details if you wish.

This pie was baked in 8 minutes at 500 - 4 on a super hot stone, 4 under the broiler (no toppings - we are having chili tonight and it is being used as bread). It is 85% caputo/15% BF, 78% hydration, 2.8% salt, 3% oil, and 20% natural starter. It never saw the mixer. Basically, it followed the Tartine Bread workflow without exception (see the book or the Tartine thread here for more info), for a total of 8 hours start to finish. I reasoned that there was enough gluten development in that recipe, it should work here.

The taste was spectacular. Super, super light and open crumb and a slightly crispy exterior and bottom. I could have easily added another 2-4 minutes to the total bake and still had the light crumb, in fact it probably would have been even better. If I did toppings, they would have gone on at the 4 minute mark. The end product, in this format, was much closer to what I remember in Rome, only those pizzas were more crispy on the bottom. Much better than my previous attempts with a tough crumb.

Next weekend I will try with toppings, and up the TF to .17. A few more things to tweak. This is fun!

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: parallei on January 02, 2011, 04:38:18 PM
Those sure look good John :chef:

Similar to the Pizza Bianca (I think it is Roman also) shown  here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1464.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1464.0.html).  I never tried topping one yet. The ones I made using the no-knead method were about TF = 0.17, but they sure blew up when they hit the stone!  We took to just stuffing them with good things for little sanwiches while they were still warm.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 02, 2011, 04:56:52 PM
Thanks parallei - Good to know on the TF. There is some more work to be done on this recipe for sure.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 02, 2011, 08:41:55 PM
John,

You sure did a great job!   :chef:  The crumb looks so light with all those irregular bubbles.

Norma

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jackie Tran on January 02, 2011, 11:29:20 PM

okay I can't let it go.  Going to mix up dough now for a foccacia test later tonight. 

Chau

Here is the result of tonight's pizzarium/foccacia bread pizza thingy a majiggy.  :P

Well I don't know what to call this and I don't know what it looks like so if someone can be so kind I would appreciate it.  I have never eaten a real pizza romana and I have had foccacia only a few times.  I know it sounds unbelievable BUT I'm asian and asian people just don't eat much foccacia.  :-D

Anywho, I took one of my NY - elite pie recipes and made it thicker.   I also decided to top this with roasted green chile and cheese (mild cheddar & provolone).  This was the 75/25 (00/HG) mix, 66% HR, 1% oil, 2.5% salt, 0.3% IDY for a 7 hour room temp ferment.   Baked initially in my MBE (just for giggles) and then finished it off in the oven for a total of 8 min. 

I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised.  It actually tasted like focaccia.  It must have been the OO drizzled over the top.   The crumb was soft and tender.  It had a very nice slight crunch to the skin and bottom.  The look of it isn't ultra holey or airy but it was light and not dense in texture.   I couldn't stop eating it.   By the looks of the crumb, I'm not sure if this would pass for a decent focaccia or if I could use this to make pizza romana or not.   To me, it seem to fit the description for pizza romana while realizing the holes could have been a bit bigger.  I think this is where I may up the hydration and oil a wee bit or go for a 24hour room ferment next time. 

The bread is about 1" thick.  This was my first focaccia and I'm quite please how it turned out.   It was much better eating than the 2nd attempt I posted above. 

Chau
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 03, 2011, 12:43:28 AM
Here is the result of tonight's pizzarium/foccacia bread pizza thingy a majiggy.  :P

Well I don't know what to call this and I don't know what it looks like so if someone can be so kind I would appreciate it.  I have never eaten a real pizza romana and I have had foccacia only a few times.  I know it sounds unbelievable BUT I'm asian and asian people just don't eat much foccacia.  :-D [...] The bread is about 1" thick.  This was my first focaccia and I'm quite please how it turned out.   It was much better eating than the 2nd attempt I posted above. 

Chau

It looks like one of them there city-slicker wheel pies, like them eye-talians like to make... :D Seriously, top it with an uncooked tomato sauce, and give the sauce more than 8 minutes to cook, at a 500 or lesser temp (or it will taste raw, at least if using standard crushed tomatoes). Put oregano and oil in the sauce. You will be pleasantly suprised...

Could you give some details as to how you handled and shaped the dough?

JLP


Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: scott123 on January 03, 2011, 12:51:10 AM
It's very focaccia-ish, but the dip in the middle is a little pizza-ish.  I'd call it a picaccia  :P
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jackie Tran on January 03, 2011, 11:17:12 AM
It looks like one of them there city-slicker wheel pies, like them eye-talians like to make... :D Seriously, top it with an uncooked tomato sauce, and give the sauce more than 8 minutes to cook, at a 500 or lesser temp (or it will taste raw, at least if using standard crushed tomatoes). Put oregano and oil in the sauce. You will be pleasantly suprised...

Could you give some details as to how you handled and shaped the dough?

JLP

I'll have to give the tomato pie a try.  I'm thinking more like a marinara pie with a thick pasty sauce, sliced garlic on top and basil.   Yummm!!!  and maybe a light sprinkle of parm/romano on a thick picaccia crust (Scott - I love the name!). 

JLP, since this was my typical pizza dough it wasn't hard to handle.  I proofed it in a plastic bowl container.  Dusted it well before flipping it out.   Gently opened it up a bit but still keeping it fairly thick about 1/2" thick.  I might thin it out just a touch next time.    I placed it on some parchment paper and let it rest another 15m before baking it on a hot stone. 

Chau

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 03, 2011, 11:55:43 PM
Pi-caccia- that's it. Some memory was nagging me about that pie, and now I know what it was. There was a place I used to eat at over 10 years ago. Can't remember the name. They served a 10" pie that was as thick as a focaccia, but was round and tapered towards the centre. Topped with only the lightest smear of tomato sauce, but very satisfying to eat (in fact, I ate myself fat on those pies, which I used to buy every day at one point). They used a conveyor oven, though, and their pies were nowhere nearly as well-charred.

JLP

[EDIT: Deleted description of a proposed, cancelled experiment]
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on January 09, 2011, 07:04:16 AM
Norma,

I remember you asking once about what type of pans are used by Pizzarium & Bosco.  I did a little bit of reading on an Italian forum & they have both confirmed that they use blue steel pans.  Massimo also mentioned that he uses about 1400 grams in a teglia that measures 40cm x 60cm which translated to a TF of just over .13.


Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jackie Tran on January 09, 2011, 07:12:25 AM
Thanks for posting that info Matt.  I need to get a few of these blue steel pans for deep dish, foccacia, and pizza romana.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 09, 2011, 08:31:47 AM
Norma,

I remember you asking once about what type of pans are used by Pizzarium & Bosco.  I did a little bit of reading on an Italian forum & they have both confirmed that they use blue steel pans.  Massimo also mentioned that he uses about 1400 grams in a teglia that measures 40cm x 60cm which translated to a TF of just over .13.


Matt

Matt,

Yes, I did ask about what kind of pan were use at Pizzarium & Bosco. Thanks for reading on the Italian forum and confirming that Pizzarium & Bosco do both use steel pans.  I had better luck at market, using my steel deep-dish pan.  Thanks also for figuring out the TF that Massimo uses.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 09, 2011, 12:38:02 PM
Today's experiment:

Flour: 100%
Hydro: 70%
IDY: .25%
Salt: 2%
Oil: 3.2%

To be counter-risen for four hours and then baked on a stone @525 for however long it takes to brown. If all goes well, it'll come out crispy and well-browned.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 09, 2011, 01:17:09 PM
The Italian-language Wikipedia entry on pizza (which is vastly different from the English version) contains the following, highly suggestive remarks concerning pizza in teglia:

"Poichť la pizza in teglia deve essere tenuta in mostra ed eventualmente riscaldata necessita dell'utilizzo di impasti molto acquosi che pure in queste condizioni non si secchino ma diano il massimo del gusto"

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizza (http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizza)

I don't really speak Italian, and the online translators I tried returned a bunch of gibberish- but I think the sense can be rendered into English as follows:

"Since pizza in teglia must be kept on display and re-heated later on, it is necessary to use highly-hydrated doughs that, under these conditions, won't dry out, but keep their flavour".

If that's correct, the implication is that the home baker who eats it straight out of the oven may not need the super-high hydro levels. Thoughts?

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 09, 2011, 01:27:52 PM
Jose,

This is what my Google Chrome translator says about the article.  The whole article you referenced talks about all kinds of pizzas, but this is the relevant part about Roman pizza.

Roman Pizza
The Roman pizza is a round pizza from dough very thin and crispy. The dough is made from wheat flour type 00 or 0, water, yeast (or yeast), olive oil (or to get a pizza you use the most fragrant oil seeds) and salt in proportions such that it is hard and consistent, so often necessary to make the draft with the rolling pin . Just spread from the capital only after the last war, calling Naples the variant with tomato sauce, mozzarella and anchovies, the same as in Naples is called Roman . In fact, the books of traditional Roman cuisine, seem to confirm that the variant with anchovies is a custom of their capital, the Roman pizza, according to the same recipe, it should also include shredded basil, pecorino cheese and pepper. Another feature of the Roman Pizza is the use of fresh ingredients, made on the raw dough before dell'infornata: zucchini, onions, potatoes, mushrooms (which we use instead of preserved in other parts of Italy).

Pizza

Pizza in Trastevere
For pizza or pizza pan with dough is spread, seasoned and baked in large pans of metal round or rectangular, and then put on display to be sold by weight chosen by the customer or at home, eaten in slices. The sale of this variety of pizza that has spread beyond the pizzerias true, even in the bakeries .
Since the pizza pan must be kept on display and may require the use of heated aqueous mixtures very well in these conditions will not dry out but give the best of taste. To that end, used strong flour and specific regeneration processes that add to the dough a greater percentage of water, up to 90%. [ citation needed ] This has also profited from the economic point of view since the pizza sold in some cases weight (for example, this method is the most common in the city of Rome).

Best of luck with your pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 09, 2011, 01:38:40 PM
Jose,

This is also a link to picture of Pizza in Trastevere (pizza in teglia)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pizza_al_taglio.jpg

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 09, 2011, 07:03:40 PM
Norma: Thanks for trans. and pic. Note that whoever wrote the entry is talking about the Roman cracker-crust pizzas that are rolled with pins and then baked on stones- which apparently are also known as Pizza Romana. Italian pizza nomenclature is just too complicated...

Everybody:

Todayís experiment failed- but it failed in a way that produced an educational, unintentionally hilarious, and above all, very tasty result, so everything balanced out in the endÖ

The formula I followed produced a dough whose strength inspired enough confidence for me to pick it up and give it a few really good stretches, and stretch it out again when transferring it to the pan. The result was that it was thinner towards the centre once seated in the pan. I made some half-hearted efforts to even the dough and then just let the issue go, reasoning that I might end up disturbing the bubbles if I continued, and that the oven spring would cause the dough to just even itself out.

It didnít. What happened instead was that the outermost third or so of the surface of the dough sprung up in an uncontrolled way, causing the toppings to slide down towards the centre and converge there. It then continued to inflate like a rubber life-raft- and the resulting pie looked like one, too. See the onion ring perched on the side of the corner? That surface was *flat* when it was put there- and was also immediately adjacent to the prosciutto slice that ultimately wound up about two and a half inches away. And the reason the comically enormous cornicone up front is smeared all over with sauce is because it wasnít supposed to be a cornicone. The area that *was* supposed to be the cornicone, viz. not smeared with sauce, can be seen just above the bottom of the pie. Oh, the humanityÖ 

Moving along, the interior of this pie was soft and very puffy, but surprisingly had only a few large alveoles. I was hoping for a crispy veneer on the outside, but didnít get that; rather, it was chewy with medium pull. Not the Roman target, or anything even close to that- but very much like the traditionally North American round pie served up by an old-school mom-and-pop place. In fact, considered in terms of the latter style Iíd self-rank it as among the very best Iíve had. Iíve been trying to re-create this style at home for years now, seeing as how the old places around here have either disappeared or degenerated over the years. Today, by pure accident of fail, Iíve blown all my previous, deliberate efforts out of the water. You should have tasted it. It brought back memories of the old places at their best- memories that I was beginning to dismiss as so much nostalgia and mythical, unattainable targets.

Back to pizza in teglia, the lessons here are:

-70% hydro just wonít cut it, at least not with 3.2% oil. Next time out, at least 75% hydro and letís say 1.75-2% oil.   

-If the dough in the pan is visibly uneven in a blatant way, donít be afraid to take aggressive countermeasures if you donít actually want a result like the one pictured here.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 09, 2011, 09:23:30 PM
Jose,

I know the feeling of not knowing how this style of pizza dough will turn out in the end.  It looks so promising and then when it goes into the oven, doesnít turn out like you want it to. 

I had to chuckle when you commented what happened to your dough and your toppings.  Not because it didnít turn into a pizza in teglia, but the way you explained what happened.

I am glad your attempt at pizza in teglia, did bring you back memories of old places at their best.  That is quite an accomplishment in its own right.  ;D  Sounds like your pizza in teglia was a success in the end. 

If I may ask, how long did you ferment the dough and what kind of flour and yeast did you use?  Did you have to give your dough any stretch and folds?  I also am curious what kind of oven set-up you used and the oven temperature.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 09, 2011, 11:28:36 PM
Norma, if you think the description is funny you should have seen the pizza. The pic is sort of two-dimensional and doesn't capture the hilarity :-D

Anyways, for the technical specs: The flour was my usual 50-50 mix of two low-end Canadian flours: Robin Hood bread flour and Five Roses AP. I myself have said that these flours are unsuitable for teglia pizza, but this was an impulsive, spur-of-the-moment effort- and besides, I just wanted to see what would happen. As a great scientist (Claude Bernard) once said: "Experiment first, you can think later" :P For the same reasons, and also against my own advice, I had this dough in the oven within four hours of taking it out of the mixer. It was leavened with Fleischman's IDY from the same packet that I've used for every single pizza I've posted about on this forum since I joined.

If by "stretch and fold" you mean the method of picking up the dough, letting it stretch out, and then folding it over itself et cetera- that's not what I did. I used the far more rudimentary technique of just folding the dough over itself and then impacting it with the base of my hand. I did this in three intervals, for a bit less than three minutes each time, separated by a 20 minute rest. (The mixer was used only to mix the ingredients into a serviceable ball).

For the oven: Typical GE electric home oven, stone on lower rack pre-heated @525 for an hour. Blackened steel pan placed on stone, left on lower rack at that temperature for the duration of the 12 minute bake.

I am definitely going to keep this dough around for my mom-and-pop round pies. I think I've accidentally stumbled onto the formula the old places around here were using in their glory days. In those days, they used tremendous amounts of toppings, which probably helped control the oven spring; it's also worth mentioning that the last true exemplar of the local style I bought over three years ago also had what struck me as a very large and puffy cornicone. But that's a topic for another thread...

JLP

 
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 10, 2011, 08:15:42 AM
Norma, if you think the description is funny you should have seen the pizza. The pic is sort of two-dimensional and doesn't capture the hilarity :-D

Anyways, for the technical specs: The flour was my usual 50-50 mix of two low-end Canadian flours: Robin Hood bread flour and Five Roses AP. I myself have said that these flours are unsuitable for teglia pizza, but this was an impulsive, spur-of-the-moment effort- and besides, I just wanted to see what would happen. As a great scientist (Claude Bernard) once said: "Experiment first, you can think later" :P For the same reasons, and also against my own advice, I had this dough in the oven within four hours of taking it out of the mixer. It was leavened with Fleischman's IDY from the same packet that I've used for every single pizza I've posted about on this forum since I joined.

If by "stretch and fold" you mean the method of picking up the dough, letting it stretch out, and then folding it over itself et cetera- that's not what I did. I used the far more rudimentary technique of just folding the dough over itself and then impacting it with the base of my hand. I did this in three intervals, for a bit less than three minutes each time, separated by a 20 minute rest. (The mixer was used only to mix the ingredients into a serviceable ball).

For the oven: Typical GE electric home oven, stone on lower rack pre-heated @525 for an hour. Blackened steel pan placed on stone, left on lower rack at that temperature for the duration of the 12 minute bake.

I am definitely going to keep this dough around for my mom-and-pop round pies. I think I've accidentally stumbled onto the formula the old places around here were using in their glory days. In those days, they used tremendous amounts of toppings, which probably helped control the oven spring; it's also worth mentioning that the last true exemplar of the local style I bought over three years ago also had what struck me as a very large and puffy cornicone. But that's a topic for another thread...

JLP

 

Jose,

You still have me chuckling.  I am also always wanting to see what would happen with any dough, but I think if we all will be able to successfully make pizza in teglia, it will take a fair amount of work. 

I meant by ďstretch and foldsĒ, either letting the dough in a bowl and pulling the dough out and then putting it back onto the dough to achieve better gluten development or taking the dough out of the container and gently stretching the dough out and folding it back onto itself, something like bread making techniques.  This can help a high hydration dough become less sticky.  My last attempt needed more stretch and folds than the attempt I made earlier, which I still canít explain why.

Good to hear you are going to keep your dough around for you mom-and-pop round pies.  :) Sounds great to me.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 10, 2011, 11:47:03 PM
To the end of getting away from blind experimentation into something more grounded, here is a recipe that comes from Molino sul Clitunno, which supplies Bosco's flour. It is intended to be used with their "Pizza in Teglia Mix" flour blend, for which they unfortunately give no specs of any kind, at least not on the Internets. Nonetheless, it is highly suggestive.

Flour: 1.2-3 kg.
Water: 1 litre (80% @ 4-8 degrees C., 20% @ 4-18 C.)
"Dry Yeast": 5-15 gr./litre of water
Salt: 21 gr./litre of water
EVO: 20 gr./litre of water.

In terms of baker's percents, with rounding this amounts to:

Flour: 100%
Water: 77-83%
"Dry Yeast": .38-1.25%
Salt: 1.6-1.75%
EVO: 1.5-1.7%

Refrigerate for no less than 24 hours.

I have no idea what they mean by "dry yeast" (IDY? ADY? Dry beer yeast?).

I also have no idea of why the water is divided.

Hmmm...

JLP
 
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on January 11, 2011, 06:30:16 AM
To the end of getting away from blind experimentation into something more grounded, here is a recipe that comes from Molino sul Clitunno, which supplies Bosco's flour. It is intended to be used with their "Pizza in Teglia Mix" flour blend, for which they unfortunately give no specs of any kind, at least not on the Internets. Nonetheless, it is highly suggestive.

Flour: 1.2-3 kg.
Water: 1 litre (80% @ 4-8 degrees C., 20% @ 4-18 C.)
"Dry Yeast": 5-15 gr./litre of water
Salt: 21 gr./litre of water
EVO: 20 gr./litre of water.

In terms of baker's percents, with rounding this amounts to:

Flour: 100%
Water: 77-83%
"Dry Yeast": .38-1.25%
Salt: 1.6-1.75%
EVO: 1.5-1.7%

Refrigerate for no less than 24 hours.

I have no idea what they mean by "dry yeast" (IDY? ADY? Dry beer yeast?).

I also have no idea of why the water is divided.

Hmmm...

JLP
 

Jose,
The water is divided because the dough is to be mixed using double hydration.  If you add all the water at once you'll end up with an under-develpoed batter.  The end dough should be a single mass of moderately developed but very wet dough.  Typically in Italy when they speak of dry yeast they are referring to IDY.

Matt

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 11, 2011, 07:29:51 AM
Jose,
The water is divided because the dough is to be mixed using double hydration.  If you add all the water at once you'll end up with an under-develpoed batter.  The end dough should be a single mass of moderately developed but very wet dough.  Typically in Italy when they speak of dry yeast they are referring to IDY.

Matt

Aha, that totally makes sense- kind of the inverse of what people do at lower hydration levels when they withold some flour so that the dough doesn't amass around the hook. Thanks for the insight.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 11, 2011, 08:17:16 AM
To the end of getting away from blind experimentation into something more grounded, here is a recipe that comes from Molino sul Clitunno, which supplies Bosco's flour. It is intended to be used with their "Pizza in Teglia Mix" flour blend, for which they unfortunately give no specs of any kind, at least not on the Internets. Nonetheless, it is highly suggestive.

Flour: 1.2-3 kg.
Water: 1 litre (80% @ 4-8 degrees C., 20% @ 4-18 C.)
"Dry Yeast": 5-15 gr./litre of water
Salt: 21 gr./litre of water
EVO: 20 gr./litre of water.

In terms of baker's percents, with rounding this amounts to:

Flour: 100%
Water: 77-83%
"Dry Yeast": .38-1.25%
Salt: 1.6-1.75%
EVO: 1.5-1.7%

Refrigerate for no less than 24 hours.

I have no idea what they mean by "dry yeast" (IDY? ADY? Dry beer yeast?).

I also have no idea of why the water is divided.

Hmmm...

JLP
 

Jose - Are the salt and evoo 2% and 2.1% respectively, as they are presented as a percentage of water (1 liter)? Or is there a conversion equation in there?

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 11, 2011, 08:33:57 AM

I donít know if anyone is interested in reading about this focaccia, that looks like pizza in teglia. 

http://profumodilievito.blogspot.com/2008/05/la-focaccia-croccante.html

This is also an article about double hydration, with a poolish. http://www.breadcetera.com/?p=162

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 11, 2011, 09:04:29 AM
John: I arrived at those percentages by calculating them as a percentage of the flour weights given, seeing as how the recipe called for exactly a litre of water with those weights.

Norma: Thanks for the links. I can actually read most of the Italian-language one without a translator at this point. Probably by the time I'm fully competent in pizza in teglia, I'll be speaking broken English with a thick Italian accent, which will make me seem more credible if I ever open a teglia shop around here...

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on January 11, 2011, 09:08:12 AM
I donít know if anyone is interested in reading about this focaccia, that looks like pizza in teglia. 

http://profumodilievito.blogspot.com/2008/05/la-focaccia-croccante.html

This is also an article about double hydration, with a poolish. http://www.breadcetera.com/?p=162

Norma

Norma,
Here's a similar version using a long fermentation.

http://profumodilievito.blogspot.com/2008/09/la-pizza-in-teglia-lunga-maturazione.html

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 11, 2011, 09:14:41 AM
Norma,
Here's a similar version using a long fermentation.

http://profumodilievito.blogspot.com/2008/09/la-pizza-in-teglia-lunga-maturazione.html

Matt

Matt,

Thanks for also posting that link.  :)  Doesn't that formula also look like a double hydration formula?  I think if we all keep trying to produce the light airy crust at some point we will all be able to make pizza in teglia.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on January 11, 2011, 09:25:49 AM
Matt,

Thanks for also posting that link.  :)  Doesn't that formula also look like a double hydration formula?  I think if we all keep trying to produce the light airy crust at some point we will all be able to make pizza in teglia.

Norma

This one is not but can be. 

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 16, 2011, 04:42:49 PM
My latest attempt:

Flour (100%):    702.6 g  |  24.78 oz | 1.55 lbs (80/20 organic KABF/Caputo 00)
Water (78%):    548.03 g  |  19.33 oz | 1.21 lbs
CY (.5%):       3.51 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs |
Salt (2.8%):    19.67 g | 0.69 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.1 tsp | 1.37 tbsp
Oil (3%):       21.08 g | 0.74 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.68 tsp | 1.56 tbsp
Total (184.3%):   1294.89 g | 45.67 oz | 2.85 lbs | TF = 0.15225
Single Ball:      647.44 g | 22.84 oz | 1.43 lbs

3 stage rest and mix on medium speeds. 24 hours cold, 4 hour room. Balled and let rise another 4. 8 minutes at 500 on bottom rack, topped with cheese and 4 minutes on top rack. Super moist crumb, and crispy bottom. Excellent flavor.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 16, 2011, 04:43:55 PM
More pics...
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: parallei on January 16, 2011, 04:58:43 PM
Man, do those look good John.  The last photo with the brussel sprouts (I think) is should be in the PizzaMaking.com hall of fame or something.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 17, 2011, 07:36:42 AM
Parallei - You are too kind. You are correct, they are brussels sprouts. I still don't have the recipe down yet but I am getting there - and having alot of fun.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 17, 2011, 09:03:29 AM
My latest attempt:

Flour (100%):    702.6 g  |  24.78 oz | 1.55 lbs (80/20 organic KABF/Caputo 00)
Water (78%):    548.03 g  |  19.33 oz | 1.21 lbs
CY (.5%):       3.51 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs |
Salt (2.8%):    19.67 g | 0.69 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.1 tsp | 1.37 tbsp
Oil (3%):       21.08 g | 0.74 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.68 tsp | 1.56 tbsp
Total (184.3%):   1294.89 g | 45.67 oz | 2.85 lbs | TF = 0.15225
Single Ball:      647.44 g | 22.84 oz | 1.43 lbs

3 stage rest and mix on medium speeds. 24 hours cold, 4 hour room. Balled and let rise another 4. 8 minutes at 500 on bottom rack, topped with cheese and 4 minutes on top rack. Super moist crumb, and crispy bottom. Excellent flavor.

John

John,

I agree with parallei.  Your latest attempt looks like you nailed this style.  The super moist crumb and excellent flavor sound great!  ;D  Good looking crumb.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: ninapizza23 on January 17, 2011, 03:38:52 PM
dellavecchia,
are you familiar with the Cambridge area in Boston?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 17, 2011, 04:12:02 PM
ninapizza - Some parts of Cambridge, such as the Harvard area I am very familiar with. But I have been to many other areas there.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: ninapizza23 on January 17, 2011, 04:49:17 PM
dellavecchia,
 
a few years back, there were 2 or 3 pizzerias in the Harvard area called Campo de' Fiori, they stayed in business a short time and finally closed down.  I know that they were making pizza by the meter.
 Farinella is very thin in the middle and crunchy on the edge. You probably need 4 slices to satisfy your hunger. Your dough in the tray looks good and the cooked pizza is much thicker than farinella, more like another pizza romana made in another pizzeria of NYC. Use less oil in the pan if you don't mind my constructive criticism
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 17, 2011, 05:11:00 PM
dellavecchia,
 
a few years back, there were 2 or 3 pizzerias in the Harvard area called Campo de' Fiori, they stayed in business a short time and finally closed down.  I know that they were making pizza by the meter.
 Farinella is very thin in the middle and crunchy on the edge. You probably need 4 slices to satisfy your hunger. Your dough in the tray looks good and the cooked pizza is much thicker than farinella, more like another pizza romana made in another pizzeria of NYC. Use less oil in the pan if you don't mind my constructive criticism

Unfortunately, I never visited those places. Too bad they went out of business - were the owners from Italy?

Thank you for the advice - I will cut down on the oil wiped into the pan next time. The thickness I am after is along the lines of Pizzarium, which I believe is around TF .15. I have not yet attempted the Farinella pizza mentioned in the other thread, which is thinner and baked directly on the deck, but will some day soon.

I have a bag of Giusto's Organic Ultimate Performer flour on the way, which has a protein count of 13-14.5%. I am trying to figure out what the best mix of flours should be for pizza in teglia that is mixed at medium speed and then cold fermented. Do you have any opinion?

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: ninapizza23 on January 17, 2011, 08:17:16 PM
dellavecchia,

I do not know where these people were from because on the day  I was going to Cambridge I called for directions but nobody was answering for days.
I have never used Giusto's flour so I do not know the details.  One thing I can tell you is that you cannot go on by the protein content alone when choosing a flour.
 As far as trying to come up with pizzarium clone there are some changes you have to make to your recipe according to what I see in your pizza and what I saw at Pizzarium.  His dough was like a sponge and about 5/8" thick. Going back to the flour, you can use one flour if it has the right characteristics for pizza romana.  I know a pizzeria romana in NYC  that claims to use a blend of 12 flours but I bet that they are saying that to confuse future competition.  I called an exporter of flour in Italy not too long ago, they told me to tell the distributor in NY to place an order. The distributor want a big order and they refused to give me a price. But I will try again,soon.
This is a slice from Pizzarium.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 18, 2011, 06:46:49 AM
dellavecchia,

I do not know where these people were from because on the day  I was going to Cambridge I called for directions but nobody was answering for days.
I have never used Giusto's flour so I do not know the details.  One thing I can tell you is that you cannot go on by the protein content alone when choosing a flour.
 As far as trying to come up with pizzarium clone there are some changes you have to make to your recipe according to what I see in your pizza and what I saw at Pizzarium.  His dough was like a sponge and about 5/8" thick. Going back to the flour, you can use one flour if it has the right characteristics for pizza romana.  I know a pizzeria romana in NYC  that claims to use a blend of 12 flours but I bet that they are saying that to confuse future competition.  I called an exporter of flour in Italy not too long ago, they told me to tell the distributor in NY to place an order. The distributor want a big order and they refused to give me a price. But I will try again,soon.
This is a slice from Pizzarium.

ninapizza23 - Thanks very much for the info. One thing I have yet to achieve is the consistent height through the entire length of the pizza. Mine seems to always be lower in the center - even when parbaking. It is interesting to hear your description of the dough as a "sponge", which I am interpreting as small, consistent bubbles (and a lower gluten flour). That many be the reason the pizza at Pizzarium has such a consistent height. It may also, of course, have to do with the expertise of the dough maker. I will keep trying. I also have some professional steel pans on the way.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: foolishpoolish on January 18, 2011, 09:40:38 PM
FWIW:
There's a Pizza "al Taglio" place in London offering a similar style of pizza.
http://www.adagio-pizza.com/
You can see some pictures of the process here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tikichris/sets/72157623813222386/with/4504243855/
The guy was apparently schooled by a pizza maker of the same style in Rome and employs a total of  72 hours fermentation.
I've not sampled the product yet but will certainly make an effort next time I'm in London.

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 18, 2011, 10:09:32 PM
FWIW:
There's a Pizza "al Taglio" place in London offering a similar style of pizza.
http://www.adagio-pizza.com/
You can see some pictures of the process here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tikichris/sets/72157623813222386/with/4504243855/
The guy was apparently schooled by a pizza maker of the same style in Rome and employs a total of  72 hours fermentation.
I've not sampled the product yet but will certainly make an effort next time I'm in London.



Toby,

Thanks for referencing that site and photos.  72 hrs. of fermentation is a long time.  I wonder how much yeast they use for that long of a ferment and also if some kind of preferment is used for their Pizza al Taglio.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on January 19, 2011, 06:43:22 AM
ninapizza23 - Thanks very much for the info. One thing I have yet to achieve is the consistent height through the entire length of the pizza. Mine seems to always be lower in the center - even when parbaking. It is interesting to hear your description of the dough as a "sponge", which I am interpreting as small, consistent bubbles (and a lower gluten flour). That many be the reason the pizza at Pizzarium has such a consistent height. It may also, of course, have to do with the expertise of the dough maker. I will keep trying. I also have some professional steel pans on the way.

John

Hey John,
I'm also anxiously awaiting on my blue steel pans from Italy.  Can't wait!

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 19, 2011, 07:53:59 AM
Hey John,
I'm also anxiously awaiting on my blue steel pans from Italy.  Can't wait!

Matt

I told my wife these pans are for pizza only, and she was not too happy. I think she has visions of cookies being baked in them. At least she was not unhappy that I had bought yet another pizza related kitchen item!

Toby - Thanks very much for the links. Very informative - I still have no idea how they ferment the dough for 72 hours into a bubbling mess, and seem to make pizza out of it.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Pete-zza on January 19, 2011, 10:10:49 AM
Matt and John,

We get a fair number of requests from members for pizza pans, including steel pans. Would you mind telling us from whom you are ordering your pans? I discovered a while back that Paderno sells blue steel pans that come from Italy but no doubt there are other vendors.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 19, 2011, 12:14:42 PM
Peter - The ones I have coming are indeed Paderno Blue Steel pans. I got a couple of 16x12 for normal pies and the 20x14's for parties.

http://www.amazon.com/Paderno-World-Cuisine-11-825-Baking/dp/B001VH70WM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1295457170&sr=8-1

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on January 19, 2011, 12:33:40 PM
Matt and John,

We get a fair number of requests from members for pizza pans, including steel pans. Would you mind telling us from whom you are ordering your pans? I discovered a while back that Paderno sells blue steel pans that come from Italy but no doubt there are other vendors.

Peter

I ordered the same ones as John from a Canadian vendor. The sizes I ordered are 35cm * 50cm & 40 cm * 60 cm. 

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: parallei on January 19, 2011, 03:11:16 PM
Oh great.  Now I've got pan envy too..... ;D
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: parallei on January 19, 2011, 09:33:58 PM
Another attempt.  Same as Reply #206, but 100% KASL and 2% OO.  Next time I'm going to try baking it a bit before topping.  Still chasing Jose ;D
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 20, 2011, 11:35:04 AM
Wow, between the latest from John and Parallei in this thread, and Matt's in the Farinella thread, this has been one good week for the cause.

Parallei: Can I ask what your aim is in planning to par-bake next time?

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: parallei on January 20, 2011, 04:37:21 PM
Jose,

Concerning the par-bake:  As I watched this pie bake, the half with just olive oil and rosemary really took off springing while the topped side lagged behind.  So I thought I might par-bake to even the spring out.  In retrospect, I think the two sides actually ended up about the same height.  I guess I could cut down on the sausage :o

Oh yeah, the TF on the last pies was 0.19.

Paul 
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 20, 2011, 04:42:51 PM
Oh yeah, the TF on the last pies was 0.19.

Paul 

Really...That is interesting. I have been using .15/.16 - but I really like the size of your crumb, so I will try .19 next time. Thanks for the info Paul, and excellent looking pies!

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 20, 2011, 07:57:20 PM
Looks like Pizza Roma opened on Bleecker St. in NY.  Sounds like they let their dough rise for 96 hrs.  Their pies sound like Pizzarium.

http://www.pizza-roma.it/concept_nyc.asp

http://www.pizza-roma.it/product_nyc.asp

http://newyork.metromix.com/restaurants/restaurant/pizza-roma-new-york/2412714/content

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 21, 2011, 02:50:52 PM
A few more links for Pizza Roma. It looks like Pizza Roma is baked in a steel pan.

http://www.pizza-roma.it/product.asp

http://www.pizza-roma.it/corporate.asp

http://www.pizza-roma.it/mission.asp

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 21, 2011, 06:54:08 PM
96 hours= 4 days :o That is one long ferment. I notice that several other teglia places also seem to make a conspicuous selling point of their fermentation time, and I almost get the feeling that Pizza Roma goes for 96 in order to one-up the others. In any case, that these places mention fermentation time at all in their publicity is quite unusual by ordinary pizzeria standards, and the practice may be a clue to the importance of slow fermentation for this particular style.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on January 22, 2011, 06:12:20 AM
Next batch, naturally leavened with a few modifications.
Stay Tuned.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 22, 2011, 08:50:05 AM
Next batch, naturally leavened with a few modifications.
Stay Tuned.

Matt

Matt,

Best of luck and I will stay tuned.  ;D  If you or anyone else is interested, this is Pizzarium Facebook page.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=38536769387&v=wall

There are a lot of photos on this on Pizzarium Facebook on this link.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=38536769387&v=photos

This is also a blog I found that tells how to make pizza-in-teglia

http://profumodilievito.blogspot.com/2009/11/la-pizza-in-teglia-croccante.html

I also found another blog that gives detailed instructions for pizza-in-teglia, but forgot to bookmark it. That blog was also from Italy.  When I find that blog, I will post it here.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: parallei on January 22, 2011, 10:52:05 AM
Norma,

Thanks for the links. 

The photos on the Pizzarium Face Book page show pies that appear, to me, to be a bit thicker than what I'd imagined.

Matt,

I've been enjoying the flavor the Ischia has been giving these things.  But I'm a coward and have been giving the dough a hit of IDY in the morning.  Please post photos!

My latest was 87.5% HR + 2% oil.  Just for the heck of it, I'm going to try 100% HR.

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 22, 2011, 11:05:57 AM
Norma,

Thanks for the links. 

The photos on the Pizzarium Face Book page show pies that appear, to me, to be a bit thicker than what I'd imagined.

My latest was 87.5% HR + 2% oil.  Just for the heck of it, I'm going to try 100% HR.



parallei, 

I donít know what thickness factor to try in my next attempt.  I will wait and see what kind of results you and Matt get.  Best of luck in your next attempt!  :)  Your last attempt looked delcious.

This is another blog, that the owner said Gabriele Bonci, gave this person, the yeast mother of 80 who always use to make bread.

http://senzapanna.blogspot.com/2006/03/pizzarium.html

This also is an idea from a blog, for a light and airy crust using a poolish, for maybe something like pizza-in-telgia, but this is bread.

http://profumodilievito.blogspot.com/2009/11/ciabatta-con-poolish-e-autolisi-lunga.html

This is also from the same blog I posted in my last post.

http://profumodilievito.blogspot.com/search/label/pizzarium

Also on this blog http://profumodibiscotti.blogspot.com/   the author said to use this method, of adding water slowly,  will also give good rise to also the pizza strip.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on January 22, 2011, 11:26:47 AM
Norma,

Thanks for the links. 

The photos on the Pizzarium Face Book page show pies that appear, to me, to be a bit thicker than what I'd imagined.

Matt,

I've been enjoying the flavor the Ischia has been giving these things.  But I'm a coward and have been giving the dough a hit of IDY in the morning.  Please post photos!

My latest was 87.5% HR + 2% oil.  Just for the heck of it, I'm going to try 100% HR.



My starters have yet to fail me.  I take very good care of them & as a result they yield consistently good results.  There's nothing to be afraid of, as long as your starter is healthy & refreshed you'll be just fine.  This attempt is much different from my last.  I'm one determined SOB & I want to nail it without the use of commercial yeast.  I'm in the process of modifying my spiral mixer by adding a breaker bar to it.  My feeling is that it will be highly beneficial when mixing a super hydrated dough.  In this attempt I increased my starter, oil & salt & am using 85/15 Caputo Red to Manitoba.  Unfortunately my blue steel pans are on back order & I'm going to have to wait a couple of weeks.  I'm sure that they will make a big difference as well.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: malvanova on January 22, 2011, 12:33:01 PM
Hey John,
I'm also anxiously awaiting on my blue steel pans from Italy.  Can't wait!

Matt

To anyone buying blue steel pans ,do not wash with soap or put in dishwasher ,it will rust , just wipe with oiled paper towl and store,

   Phil
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on January 23, 2011, 07:27:38 AM
To anyone buying blue steel pans ,do not wash with soap or put in dishwasher ,it will rust , just wipe with oiled paper towl and store,

   Phil

Thanks Phil,
The focaccia pans are blue steel, no?

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 23, 2011, 10:23:49 AM
This was the blog, I mentioned in my other post.  I donít know if this formula will help anyone one or not, but the crumb looks nice and airy.

http://mollicadipane.blogspot.com/2009/01/la-focaccia-croccante-di-adriano.html

This formula also call for malt, as Matt had suggested before.  Does anyone know if what they are referring to is malt powder or malt syrup? 

This is also a video to see how soft and bubbly the dough is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJr0len9YCQ

In the above mentioned video it looks like they bake with the oven closed.

Does anyone know what thickness factor might be used for a formula?

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 23, 2011, 10:37:08 AM
For the Focaccia or the pizzas?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on January 23, 2011, 12:06:58 PM
This was the blog, I mentioned in my other post.  I donít know if this formula will help anyone one or not, but the crumb looks nice and airy.

http://mollicadipane.blogspot.com/2009/01/la-focaccia-croccante-di-adriano.html

This formula also call for malt, as Matt had suggested before.  Does anyone know if what they are referring to is malt powder or malt syrup? 

This is also a video to see how soft and bubbly the dough is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJr0len9YCQ

In the above mentioned video it looks like they bake with the oven closed.

Does anyone know what thickness factor might be used for a formula?

Norma

Norma,
It's definitely malt syrup.  The receipe is for focaccia & is for 2.  I'm going to go out on a limb & guess that the teglia (pan) is 30cm x 40cm with about 650g per pan for a TF of approx .125.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 23, 2011, 01:14:21 PM
Norma,
It's definitely malt syrup.  The receipe is for focaccia & is for 2.  I'm going to go out on a limb & guess that the teglia (pan) is 30cm x 40cm with about 650g per pan for a TF of approx .125.

Matt

Matt,

Thanks for letting us know that it is malt syrup, used in the formulas. I will have to find where I can purchase some to try.  Also thanks for giving a TF for another attempt.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 23, 2011, 05:29:23 PM
Hereís my latest effort. More than a year since I started this thread, Iíve finally succeeded in producing something I was really happy with. The details:

420 grams flour, enough water for about 88% hydro, .35 standard teaspoon IDY, 1.5 teaspoons salt, 3.5 oil. Dumped in my mixer, ran it until it cleaned the bowl, then less than 3 minutes of hand-kneading, 20 minute rest, another >3 minutes hand kneading, another 20 minute rest, and a final >4 minutes kneading. Refrigerated for 46 hours, warmed on counter for 3.5 hours, formed, topped with sauce, large pieces of Italian sausage, Ďshrooms, and green peppers, and then into the oven it went @ 450 for 20 minutes.

This dough had tremendous elasticity and tenacity, so much that I deliberately weighed it down with sausage to control the oven spring. That just barely worked; in fact, some bubbles formed that were so unrelenting as to just push some of the sausage sections right off (in some of the pics, you can see one forced by a bubble to stand on end- and it wasnít a little one, either). Honestly, the gluten was developed to the point of overkill and hopefully as my technique improves so will my level of control. Iíve been told that one of the things that separates the pros from the amateurs with these pies is this consistency of the crumb, and as you can see from the pics Iím still very much an amateur in that respect.

Moving along to its eating characteristics, the crust coloration was a darker brown than I usually get, something like well-done toast, and it had a nice toasty flavor on the exterior. The exterior was very lightly crispy, about at the point where chew gives way to crisp. The interior was very, very fluffy, but surprisingly toothsome and did not give the impression of biting into thin air. Finally, it was highly digestible considering how much meat there was on it. The slices I ate left me satiated, but not stuffed- something Iíve been striving for for a long time, and which led me to the Pizza Romana to begin with.   

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 23, 2011, 05:29:42 PM
Another brace:
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 23, 2011, 05:30:30 PM
One more:
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 23, 2011, 05:41:56 PM
Jose,

You do have something to be happy about.  Your slices look amazing.  ;D

Congrats on the great job you did!

Do you mind telling what thickness factor you used?  The slices look perfect for thickness factor.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 23, 2011, 05:58:09 PM
Jose - Perfection! What an incredible crumb. What flour did you use?

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 23, 2011, 06:54:07 PM
Thanks for the positives everybody.

Norma: The TF was .15.

John: The flour was a 50-50 mix of Robin Hood bread flour and Five Roses AP, both Canadian. These flours aren't great in most respects, but they seem to have an almost infinite amount of usable gluten if worked hard enough.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: malvanova on January 23, 2011, 10:16:47 PM
Thanks Phil,
The focaccia pans are blue steel, no?

Matt

Hi Matt, yes the pans are blue steel, but the blue color is attained by firing the steel to a certain temp. and it turns a blueish tone, it is not a coating that is applied, they will darken with use to a blackish tone, it is still bare steel per say. no dishwasher no water no soap, oil wipe only, if they are the one I saw at bakeries in Italy,saw new ones blueish tone and used ones darker tones, could be diff.ones poss. ,,,  :-\ ,I bought bare steel one on last trip to Italy when I fired them first they turned a blue tone , and oiled them, returned them to the oven at 5-600F for an hr. or so and turned darker, created a non stick coating,

  Phil
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: malvanova on January 23, 2011, 10:28:46 PM
Thanks for the positives everybody.

Norma: The TF was .15.

John: The flour was a 50-50 mix of Robin Hood bread flour and Five Roses AP, both Canadian. These flours aren't great in most respects, but they seem to have an almost infinite amount of usable gluten if worked hard enough.

JLP

 
  that is a very nice crum Jose  good Job, I only use 5 Roses for my focaccia  85% hyd. mix until clears the bowl pour in blk. pans, rise, add topp., and bake, great (fohgazzz.) Barese dialect for focaccia.

  Phil
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jackie Tran on January 23, 2011, 11:59:50 PM
Nice crumb JLP.  Even better that it had the correct texture.  EPIC WIN!!!

Chau
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on January 24, 2011, 05:57:49 AM
Very Nice Jose

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 24, 2011, 12:11:45 PM
Thanks for the kind words guys.

As a post-script, the leftover slices stood up very well to conservation; after 9 hours, they were the same as they were when they came out of the oven, except of course for the temperature. Since they didn't soften, I doubt they would have re-heated well (i.e. they would probably have turned too crispy) and were a bit too dark for re-heating in any case. However, I think that with more oil and a few minutes less bake time this formula would make for a good par-baked pizza for occasions when one is needed.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 25, 2011, 09:12:40 PM
I used the dough I had made and posted about at Reply 274 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg124387.html#msg124387   

This crumb was light and the crust did taste good.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 25, 2011, 09:30:58 PM
Those are impressive to say the very least. What was the baking temp/time?

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 25, 2011, 09:56:39 PM
Those are impressive to say the very least. What was the baking temp/time?

JLP

Jose,

Thanks!  I baked this in my deck oven at market in my steel deep dish pan at temperatures about 550-565 degrees F, first on two screens and then I took the pan off the screens, because the bottom wasnít browning enough.  The bake time was about 10-12 minutes.  If you want me to post the other pictures I took, I can either post them under your thread here or at the other thread where I posted the formula and what I did to this dough.

None of my other attempts before turned out like this.  I still am not sure how a real Pizzarium slice is supposed to taste like or look like.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 25, 2011, 10:25:38 PM
Thanks for the info. I would be very interested to see the other pics. It's up to you where you want to post them, of course, but I'd appreciate it if you would post them here because the level of control your slices display ties in with a point I made about the importance of control a few posts back (namely, had I baked my latest dough at the same temp you used, I think it it would have ballooned out into utter chaos). You seem to have found the elusive sweet-spot of optimum gluten development for this style.

For the question of whether or not they approximate Pizzarium, I find it hard to conceive how the formula you followed could possibly have yielded something fundamentally different; even if it isn't *exactly* the same, it should have the same generic properties.

JLP 
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 25, 2011, 10:57:16 PM
Thanks for the info. I would be very interested to see the other pics. It's up to you where you want to post them, of course, but I'd appreciate it if you would post them here because the level of control your slices display ties in with a point I made about the importance of control a few posts back (namely, had I baked my latest dough at the same temp you used, I think it it would have ballooned out into utter chaos). You seem to have found the elusive sweet-spot of optimum gluten development for this style.

For the question of whether or not they approximate Pizzarium, I find it hard to conceive how the formula you followed could possibly have yielded something fundamentally different; even if it isn't *exactly* the same, it should have the same generic properties.

JLP 

Jose,

I really watched how this dough was developing gluten when it was mixing and also during the proof.  I donít even know if I can do the same thing again.  The dough was really strong and almost fell open, when I went to put it into the deep-dish steel pan.  I donít know if it was because of how I mixed it or how it was proofed. 

I will post the pictures here.  If you or anyone else wants to know more what I did with this dough or how I mixed the dough, I will post about it.

The crumb in this recent pizza was light and springy.  I donít know if the crumb is supposed to spring, but the slices also tasted good cold.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 25, 2011, 11:00:15 PM
rest of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jackie Tran on January 25, 2011, 11:07:28 PM
Nice work Norma.  The crumb looks great. 

Chau
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 25, 2011, 11:28:17 PM
Nice work Norma.  The crumb looks great. 

Chau

Chau,

Thanks!  :) The crumb was different than any other pizza I made before.  I still haven't figured out if it was from adding the flour slowly and mixing for a much longer time or is the gluten also developed more from room temperature fermenting and then cold fermenting.  This higher hydration dough just felt much different than any other dough I have worked with before.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jet_deck on January 25, 2011, 11:41:52 PM
Norma, the market can hold you no more.  You must find a place to expand and grow.  Are you willing to accept investors ?  Tons of  people would enjoy your efforts.  Would you consider a bigger location?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 26, 2011, 12:10:43 AM
Norma, the market can hold you no more.  You must find a place to expand and grow.  Are you willing to accept investors ?  Tons of  people would enjoy your efforts.  Would you consider a bigger location?

Jet_deck,

I appreciate your kindness.  :) I just enjoy the challenge and what I can learn from making different kinds of pizzas.  I am way to old to be thinking about opening a bigger location.  A pizzeria man came to visit me today.  He has been at my small pizza stand before.  He wants to buy my stand for his nephew.  He own Roccoís Pizza near Gettysburg, Pa. I think, but am not sure he has two pizzerias. He smelled  this dough about a couple of hours before I made this pizza.  He said donít let the dough go much longer, because it wonít be any good.  We were talking about pizzas for awhile.  I told Lorenzo that I was trying to make a focaccia style pizza.  He said he just bought loads of blue steel pans at an auction and would give me some next week.  I hope if Lorenzo does bring me blue steel pans they will also work well.  I showed Lorenzo the pan I was going to use and he said it wouldnít work for the pizza I was going to make.  He was the same person that told me awhile ago that my dough isnít proofed enough.  :-D I still haven't figured that out. I have never tried his pizza, but he told me today he goes though about 200 lbs. of flour a day.  If he comes again next week, I have to think of more questions to ask him.  He talks so fast, I can hardly keep up with him.  I told Lorenzo I am not interested in selling my small pizza stand at market, because I really do enjoy making pizza and talking to customers, but said if I ever want to sell my small market stand I would call him. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Ev on January 26, 2011, 09:26:17 AM
I can attest to the high quality of the outcome of this experiment because I was there. Admittedly, I have not been following this thread at all and so was impressed when Norma told me what all went into producing this dough. I was even more impressed with the resulting pie. So light and airy, soft and supple! Even after cooling and standing at room temp for a couple hours, it remained tender. I think the flavor may have even improved! Bravo! Now, I'm going to have to try this myself!
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 26, 2011, 09:35:56 AM
I can attest to the high quality of the outcome of this experiment because I was there. Admittedly, I have not been following this thread at all and so was impressed when Norma told me what all went into producing this dough. I was even more impressed with the resulting pie. So light and airy, soft and supple! Even after cooling and standing at room temp for a couple hours, it remained tender. I think the flavor may have even improved! Bravo! Now, I'm going to have to try this myself!

Steve,

Thanks for saying you also liked this last attempt.  :) I also tried a part of a slice last evening when I got home.  I ate it cold.  The taste was good.  I am going to reheat some slices today to see what kind of flavor there is in reheating and also if the slices can be reheated.

Best of luck trying this kind of pizza! 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 26, 2011, 09:52:13 AM
Norma - You should open a Pizzarium with that kind of result. Excellent crumb!

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on January 26, 2011, 09:53:48 AM
Very nice Norma.
You rocked it!
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 26, 2011, 11:21:03 AM
Norma - You should open a Pizzarium with that kind of result. Excellent crumb!

John

John,

Thanks for saying this pie had an excellent crumb.  :) I would like to be able to offer something like this at market, but I really don't know if I can reproduce the same results again.  I was even surprised how this pizza turned out, after all my other attempts.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 26, 2011, 11:23:05 AM
Very nice Norma.
You rocked it!

Matt,

Thanks for your kind words!   :)  Coming from you, John, and Chau, who are much better pizza makers than I am, I really appreciate the comments.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 26, 2011, 12:12:14 PM
John,

Thanks for saying this pie had an excellent crumb.  :) I would like to be able to offer something like this at market, but I really don't know if I can reproduce the same results again.  I was even surprised how this pizza turned out, after all my other attempts.

Norma

Norma - Is this the first time you used 85% durum in the recipe?

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 26, 2011, 01:23:08 PM
I would like to be able to offer something like this at market, but I really don't know if I can reproduce the same results again.

I think the formula is a good one (I got a good result using one that was very similar). If you can remember what you did with respect to the mixing/stretching protocol and rise time, it should be reproducible. I think an important part of making these is identifying the point in the rise beyond which the dough is in danger of overfermenting/dying.

If you ever sell them commercially, maybe we could all lobby Pizzablogger to feature your stand on the Slice blog :)

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 26, 2011, 02:33:27 PM
Norma - Is this the first time you used 85% durum in the recipe?

John

John,

This is the first time I used 85% durum flour in the mix.  I did use all durum flour in another mix.  I used the blue bag Caputo for the other 15% of the mix.  I will take a picture of the blue bag Caputo I used.  This was also the first time I tried CY in the formula.  I used Fleischmann's cake yeast.  I will try to explain in my next post to Jose all what I did. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 26, 2011, 03:21:34 PM
I think the formula is a good one (I got a good result using one that was very similar). If you can remember what you did with respect to the mixing/stretching protocol and rise time, it should be reproducible. I think an important part of making these is identifying the point in the rise beyond which the dough is in danger of overfermenting/dying.

If you ever sell them commercially, maybe we could all lobby Pizzablogger to feature your stand on the Slice blog :)

JLP

Jose,

I will try to explain to you and anyone that is interested what I did to try and make the pizza I did.  When looking at the pictures I posted on Reply 275 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg124388.html#msg124388 it can be seen how the dough looked when it was finished being mixed in the first picture.  In the second picture the dough is in a smaller plastic container.  That dough was stretched and folded two times after 45 minute intervals.  In the third picture the dough had already been cold fermented overnight.  I had done a total of 6 stretch and folds the night before and had the dough out at room temperature for 3 Ĺ hrs., before placing it in the refrigerator.  The next morning, I took the plastic container out of the refrigerator and did more stretch and folds, for a total of 4 more.  That was over a period of 4 more hours.  Then the dough had reached the top of the smaller container.  I then the dough to market and left it in the deli case overnight.  When I arrived at market in the morning, the dough was almost pushing off the lid, so I moved the dough to a larger container.  I left the dough sit out at room temperatures at market, for about 7 hours.  The dough became very gassy as can be seen in Reply 299 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg124534.html#msg124534 That picture was taken about 2 Ĺ hrs. before baking the pizza.  That is the first picture in that posted.  The second picture is how the bottom of the dough looked right before the bake.  As can be seen in all those pictures the dough did grow by a lot.  I also think that it is critical to be able to tell when the dough is ready and not overproof it.  I wasnít even sure I didnít overproof the dough, until I baked it.  I did let the opened skin, proof more in the deep-dish steel pan for another about 1 Ĺ hrs., covered with linen towels.  Then I lightly coated the skin with herb infused oil.  The skin after proofing did seem dry, before brushing with oil.  The dough didnít rise much while proofing. 

The method I used to mix the dough was the method of mixing flour slowly into the water.  I spent about 40 minutes slowly mixing the flour in and trying to form more gluten.  The salt and oil werenít added until the end of the mix.  When the dough was finished mixing, it looked very sticky.  After the salt was added in I could see the gluten tighten up.  I mixed on various speeds in my Kitchen Aid Professional HD mixer.  At some times I even tried the highest speed to see what would happen.  That is speed 10, but I didnít keep the mixer on speed 10 for too long.  I used my hands that were wet with water to do the stretch and folds.  The dough became very robust from doing the stretch and folds. 

I donít know if these explanations can help anyone or not that want to make this kind of pizza.  I donít even know if I can reproduce the same results the next time, but I probably will try again next week.  There is no way of knowing if I was doing anything right or wrong in what methods I used to mix or what I did after the mix.  I would have thought the dough was overproofed.  I also wonder how I could tell if the dough became overproofed.  I didnít do any punch downs of the dough after it really began to rise. 

I would like to be able to sell this kind of pizza at market, but some way it would have to be tried over and over to see what the results are.  In a home setting without being a professional with this type of pizza, there is too much watching of the dough and then not knowing how the final bake will be.  Maybe this dough could be cold fermented for more days to make this kind of dough easier to make.  If anyone has any ideas about anything I posted, let me know.  My formula was very similar to yours, Jose.  I also used sea salt in the formula.  I used olive oil in the formula, too.

Picture of flour and yeast I used in the formula.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: malvanova on January 26, 2011, 09:20:39 PM
all I can say is OUTSTANDING!!!!!! great job Norma (gimme me the details) how long how much , don't know if I can get cake yeast around here never seen it on store shelf, where did you get it???

  Phil
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: parallei on January 26, 2011, 09:54:53 PM
Looks great Norma ;D
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 26, 2011, 10:08:51 PM
all I can say is OUTSTANDING!!!!!! great job Norma (gimme me the details) how long how much , don't know if I can get cake yeast around here never seen it on store shelf, where did you get it???

  Phil

Phil,

Thanks for your kind words about the pizza I made.  :) I still donít know how this pizza compares to a real Pizzarium pizza, because I have never tasted one.  I wish someone that has tasted a real Pizzarium pizza could explain what they are like in terms of the taste of the crust, how the bottom of the crust looks and also if the crumb springs.  I was going to take a video yesterday of some slices and how the crust just sprung back when pushing on it, but never took the video because I became busy trying to make pizzas at market.  This pizza was light and had a different taste in the crust and crumb than any other pizza I made before, but that doesnít make me sure I am still where I need to be. 

Any kind of details you want, I will be glad to post.  Just ask me any questions and I will try to respond the best I can.  I think the real Pizzarium pizzas do use a starter and not cake yeast.  I donít know if other places that do make pizza in teglia just use cake yeast or not.  I just played around with using cake yeast to see what the results would be.  I donít know, but think the major part of why this recent pizza turned out better was the mix time, the way the flour was incorporated, the small amount of cake yeast added, and the different ways of fermenting and watching the dough.  I still am not sure if I can reproduce the same results again.  The cake yeast I purchased was at a Weis Supermarket near where I live.  It cost 1.35 for the small cake.  I donít know how many supermarkets do carry cake yeast.  A few supermarkets near me do carry cake yeast around the milk, butter, eggs, and other cold items.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 26, 2011, 10:38:06 PM
Looks great Norma ;D

parallei,

Thanks!  :)  I am letting a few slices in the fridge to try and reheat tomorrow.  I will see how they reheat.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 27, 2011, 08:02:59 AM
If anyone is interested, this one blog is where I got ideas of how to make pizza in teglia. 

http://profumodilievito.blogspot.com/2009/11/la-pizza-in-teglia-croccante.html

I didnít use the exact ingredients or technique, but did get ideas how this blogger does make pizza in teglia.  He pie also has many irregular holes.  I didnít have the malt, so I just tried without malt.  This bloggers formula is meant to be used in one day.

Hope this helps if anyone wants to try his formula.  I canít convert this recipe into bakerís percent,(because of my bad math skills)  but if anyone can, I would be interested to see what one pie would be in bakerís percent.  In my opinion one of the ways to get this dough to work is getting strength in the dough and maybe proofing as this blogger did.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jet_deck on January 27, 2011, 09:26:54 AM
Thanks Norma.
I was searching yesterday for a same day pizza in teglia recipe but found none.  This one will fit the bill perfectly. Bakers percents:

Ingredients:

 3 trays for 30 x 35    (12 inches x 14 inches)

 900g flour W 250 (or 0 for a pizza with a high absorption)     (100%)
 720gr water                                                                  ( 80%)
 45g extra virgin olive oil                                                  (   5%)
 18gr salt                                                                      (  2%)
 4.5 g fresh yeast                                                           (  .5%)
 1 teaspoon barley malt (optional)
 Semolina for dusting
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 27, 2011, 09:37:52 AM
Thanks Norma.
I was searching yesterday for a same day pizza in teglia recipe but found none.  This one will fit the bill perfectly. Bakers percents:

Ingredients:

 3 trays for 30 x 35    (12 inches x 14 inches)

 900g flour W 250 (or 0 for a pizza with a high absorption)     (100%)
 720gr water                                                                  ( 80%)
 45g extra virgin olive oil                                                  (   5%)
 18gr salt                                                                      (  2%)
 4.5 g fresh yeast                                                           (  .5%)
 1 teaspoon barley malt (optional)
 Semolina for dusting


Jet_deck,

Thanks for doing the bakerís percents.  :) I donít know how that formula will work out for a one day dough, but it sounded interesting to me.  Best of luck if you try the formula out.  :) The percent of olive oil seems a little high, but that might also help the dough be lighter.  I am not sure about that, but I only used 3.5 % of olive oil in my dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 27, 2011, 09:46:24 AM
I believe the flour grade specified corresponds pretty much to American AP.

In my experience, at 5% oil, I'd expect the pie to come out more chewy than crispy, though I suppose a lot depends on the flour and level of dough development. Try it and see what happens.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: foolishpoolish on January 27, 2011, 09:52:50 AM
Some new linkage:

Brief article about Gabriele Bonci's course at Tricolore:
http://www.parlafood.com/le-mani-in-pasta-with-gabriele-bonci/

Photoset of a pizza-making course with Gabriele Bonci:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157625744176649/

More about the experience:
http://www.kittyskitchen.it/la-pizza-secondo-gabriele-bonci.html
http://www.divinacucina-blog.com/2011/01/learning-new-tricks-tricolore-roma.html
http://www.scattidigusto.it/2011/01/22/la-pizza-in-urbana-di-gabriele-bonci-il-partito-du-pilu-gozzovigli-da-tricolore-monti-a-roma/

Breadmaking with Gabriele Bonci:
http://www.elizabethminchilliinrome.com/2011/01/bread-making-with-gabriele-bonci.html
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: foolishpoolish on January 27, 2011, 09:57:36 AM
Oops I missed the most important links:

http://www.elizabethminchilliinrome.com/2011/01/making-pizza-dough-with-gabriele-bonci.html
http://www.elizabethminchilliinrome.com/2011/01/pizza-as-canvas-creating-toppings-with.html
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jet_deck on January 27, 2011, 10:14:04 AM
Recipe, Gabriele Bonci on Pizza.it

http://www.pizza.it/forum/pizza/ShowMessage.asp?ID=1679 (http://www.pizza.it/forum/pizza/ShowMessage.asp?ID=1679)

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: foolishpoolish on January 27, 2011, 10:16:27 AM
Recipe, Gabriele Bonci on Pizza.it

http://www.pizza.it/forum/pizza/ShowMessage.asp?ID=1679 (http://www.pizza.it/forum/pizza/ShowMessage.asp?ID=1679)


Interesting how his recipe seems to have changed since 2003. The current (taught) recipe seems to utilise 90% flour from Mulino Marino and 10% Emmer (Farro) wheat. I wonder if this is closer to the dough he uses at Pizzarium?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 27, 2011, 12:02:59 PM
The recipe from 2003 uses a flour (5 stagioni Oro) that is W390 and 14% protein - a very strong flour - and has a 36 hour cold ferment using a poolish. The recipe posted for the class uses a flour from Mulino Marino that is W270 (Buratto) which is a medium strength flour (close to our "bread flour") - and uses a cold ferment of 24 hours, but it is a direct dough. Also, the 2003 recipe uses a spiral mixer in the initial stage, and the taught class uses stretch and folds to develop the gluten.

I believe that Norma's latest masterpiece was achieved with a very high gluten flour (durum), using stretch and folds over a period of time, and then left to cold ferment for 2 overnights, with another round of stretch and folds, and then left out for 7 hours at room temp before baking. Her description was that the finished dough was "springy" - which makes sense. The dough was left to develop alot of it's gluten over a long period of time, and became very strong (durum has high gluten, but the gluten is generally weak, so the caputo helped).

What I am trying to determine is why one would choose to do a long ferment (up to 96 hours in some cases) with a very strong flour, as opposed to doing a relatively short ferment using a medium flour (or even a same day dough using a levain). You can develop the gluten to any stage you want using the right initial mix method. If flavor is the reason, then that can be made up for using the correct percentage of spring/winter wheats in combination with a good levain.

Below is a pic of a dough I have been cold fermenting for 48 hours. It will be cooked this evening. It is 75/25 Giusto's Ultimate Performer (14% P) and Golden Haven (11.5% P spring/winter mix). No mixer was used, opting instead for stretch and folds over the course of 2 hours. I will post the formula with the baked pics - good or bad.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 27, 2011, 12:27:45 PM
Recipe, Gabriele Bonci on Pizza.it

http://www.pizza.it/forum/pizza/ShowMessage.asp?ID=1679 (http://www.pizza.it/forum/pizza/ShowMessage.asp?ID=1679)



Dang...For over a year I've been trying to teach myself how to make these pies from studying pictures and whatnot, all the while oblivious to the fact that there exists a forum where the likes of Gabriele and the guy from Pizzeria Bosco are online giving out first-hand advice...I'm sure I have a doppelganger somewhere in Italy trying to teach himself NY pizza unaware of pizzamaking.com with its thousands of posts by the likes of Pete-zza and Varasano on the subject  ::)

Unfortunately the forum is based on an obsolete BBS format that makes it extremely difficult to navigate over and above the language barrier, but I am definitely going to apply myself to trying to read it.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Pete-zza on January 27, 2011, 01:41:48 PM
I canít convert this recipe into bakerís percent,(because of my bad math skills)  but if anyone can, I would be interested to see what one pie would be in bakerís percent.

Norma,

To help you get over your math phobia, I will show you how to convert the dough formulation you referenced to baker's percent format and to calculate the thickness factor.

First, you have to convert all of the ingredients to baker's percent format. All baker's percents other than the flour, which is always 100% (by definition), are with respect to the weight of flour. So, for the formulation under discussion, if the weight of water is 720 grams, then its baker's percent is equal to 720/900, or 80%. Doing the same calculations for the rest of the ingredients will give you their respective baker's percents. The only wrinkle is the barley malt. Since the article apparently doesn't say whether the barley malt is dry or liquid, or whether it is diastatic or non-diastatic, I will assume that it is non-diastatic and liquid for our purposes, and intended as a sugar substitute. One teaspoon of a typical barley malt syrup weighs 0.2469135 ounces. To convert that to grams, multiply that number by 28.35 (since one ounce weighs 28.35 grams). That comes to 6.99999 grams for the single teaspoon of barley malt syrup. If you divide that number by 900, the baker's percent is 0.77776%.

Second, to use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html for data formatting purposes, you need to add up the weights of all of the ingredients. For the formulation under discussion, that is 1694.499 grams. That number should be used in the expanded dough calculating tool using the grams Dough Weight option. Then the baker's percents are entered into the tool. Doing all this yields the following:

Flour (W 250) (100%):
Water (80%):
CY (0.50%):
Salt (2%):
Extra Virgin Olive Oil (5%):
Non-Diastatic Barley Malt Syrup (0.77776%):
Total (188.27776%):
900 g  |  31.75 oz | 1.98 lbs
720 g  |  25.4 oz | 1.59 lbs
4.5 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs |
18 g | 0.63 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.22 tsp | 1.07 tbsp
45 g | 1.59 oz | 0.1 lbs | 10 tsp | 3.33 tbsp
7 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
1694.5 g | 59.77 oz | 3.74 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: For three 30cm x 35cm trays; no bowl residue compensation

Third, to calculate the thickness factor, you first have to convert the dimensions of the tray to inches. The dimensions given for the tray are 30cm x 35cm. Since one inch is equal to 2.54 cm, if you divide 30 and 35 by 2.54, you will end up with 11.81" x 13.78". If you multiply those numbers together, you will end up with the surface area of the tray. In this case, it will be 162.7362 square inches. That number will be used to calculate the thickness factor. However, there is one step left. Since the total dough weight is intended to be used for three trays, we have to divide the total dough weight, in ounces, by 3. So, in our case, one tray of dough weighs 59.77 ounces (from the above table) and when that number is divided by 3 we get 19.9233 ounces.

Finally, to get the thickness factor, we divide 19.9233 by the surface area of the tray, i.e., 162.7362. That gives us the thickness factor of 0.12243. That value might change slightly if a dry non-diastatic malt were used, or if a diastatic malt were intended. The numbers would have to be re-run in such a case. However, now that I have shown you how to do the math, hopefully you would be able to do the math yourself in such a case.

For those who are interested, I used the Google translator at http://translate.google.com/#it|en|. I selected Italian to English and entered the URL of the article at http://profumodilievito.blogspot.com/2009/11/la-pizza-in-teglia-croccante.html into the translation box.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 27, 2011, 02:35:26 PM
Peter,

I want to thank you for helping me try to get over my math phobia.  I donít know if I can ever get over seeing numbers and what to do with them.  For some reason my mind freezes even when I see something more complicated than basic addition, subtraction, multiplication, division or something that can be simply figured out on a calculator.  I donít know what is the matter with my brain when it comes to math.  Maybe I have math dyslexia.  :-D

I will copy out your instructions on what to do the next time and see if I can figure this all out.  I want to be able to understand how to do all this, but it might take me awhile.  I hope you and other members can be patient with me.  I appreciate your lesson in math for a formula.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: katieparla on January 27, 2011, 03:39:08 PM
I took Bonci's pizza class in Rome recently and this is the pizza dough recipe we used:

1kg flour (types 0 or 1, aka buratto) Ė we used 90% white flour and 10% spelt flour
700g water - we actually all ended up using a bit more than this
40g extra virgin olive oil
20g sea salt
3.5g dry brewerís yeast - experienced bakers can substitute 100g sourdough starter

Bonci uses only Mulino Marino flour (easy enough to get in Italy; ive seen it in NYC at Eataly). If you cant use MM, he recommends organic, all-natural, stone-ground flour from a reputable mill. Im in the process of getting my other notes together and ill post a more complete report soon.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 27, 2011, 03:54:03 PM
I took Bonci's pizza class in Rome recently and this is the pizza dough recipe we used:

1kg flour (types 0 or 1, aka buratto) Ė we used 90% white flour and 10% spelt flour
700g water - we actually all ended up using a bit more than this
40g extra virgin olive oil
20g sea salt
3.5g dry brewerís yeast - experienced bakers can substitute 100g sourdough starter

Bonci uses only Mulino Marino flour (easy enough to get in Italy; ive seen it in NYC at Eataly). If you cant use MM, he recommends organic, all-natural, stone-ground flour from a reputable mill. Im in the process of getting my other notes together and ill post a more complete report soon.


Welcome to the forum katieparla. Thanks very much for posting the recipe. I look forward to reading your complete report.

John

(edit: I thought your name looked familiar! http://www.scattidigusto.it/2011/01/22/la-pizza-in-urbana-di-gabriele-bonci-il-partito-du-pilu-gozzovigli-da-tricolore-monti-a-roma/)
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 27, 2011, 06:00:34 PM
Epic fail. Tough bottom and a dense (although soft) crumb. Back to the drawing board. The only redeeming thing about this bake was that it tasted very good, and the new Paderno pans helped to cook the the pie evenly.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 27, 2011, 06:44:58 PM
John,

Your recent attempt looks very good to me.  Your crumb does look light and your whole pie looks delicious!

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 27, 2011, 06:59:53 PM
John:  Did you let the dough proof in the pan before baking it by any chance?

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 27, 2011, 07:02:53 PM
John:  Did you let the dough proof in the pan before baking it by any chance?

JLP

Jose - No, baked immediately.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jet_deck on January 27, 2011, 11:55:06 PM
I baked the recipe that Norma found for pizza in teglia, found here:

If anyone is interested, this one blog is where I got ideas of how to make pizza in teglia. 

http://profumodilievito.blogspot.com/2009/11/la-pizza-in-teglia-croccante.html

I used my caputo (w=350) flour for this pizza in teglia.

I converted the 4.5 grams of cake yeast to ADY (4.5 x .4117 = 1.85 grams ADY) The recipe said take 450g of flour and 450g of water with the yeast and it should double in 3 hours.  I had no such luck.  I did notice that this recipe called for half of the yeast that member 'katieparla' posted above.

Another issue that I have with the recipe is the thickness factor.  I measured the dough for each of the three pizzas i made to 19 oz. and stretched out the first one to 11.5" x 13.75".  I feel that this is to thin when compared to pictures that others have posted.  The crumb was very closed in comparison to when I reduced how far I streched out the dough.  For example I would say that the 19 oz portion of dough was much better when it only covered 8" x 13"  I'm not saying it wasn't any good when it was thinner, but the pictures will hopefully show the difference.

I cooked them in the home oven at 500*  10 minutes on bake and 5 minutes on broil.  The taste was fantastic.  I loved it much.  I got to use my new 6-n-1's from Escalon.  (Doctored with sugar, salt, and 3 shakes of McCormicks italian spice.)  Ground turkey was the meat.  This was better than good, it was nearly killer.

Since I don't mind showing my failures here goes with the thinner crumb pizzas.

This was some good stuff. 

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jet_deck on January 27, 2011, 11:59:38 PM
When that one came out, I didn't stretch the dough as thin and came up with this.

The last two pictures are the best and worst of the crumb structure I was able to accomplish.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on January 28, 2011, 06:31:24 AM
Epic fail. Tough bottom and a dense (although soft) crumb. Back to the drawing board. The only redeeming thing about this bake was that it tasted very good, and the new Paderno pans helped to cook the the pie evenly.

John

John,
This is a tough one to nail & it's hit & miss.  FWIW my starter batch last week was also an Epic Loss.  It was the 1st & last time I use Caputo Red for pizza in Teglia.  To me, the best mix is 85/15 Manitoba to Semola.  Keep at it bro!  Hopefully Katie can shed some light.
BTW: How are the pans?  Mine are still on backorder.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 28, 2011, 06:38:38 AM
Jet_deck,

For your first attempt I think you did great!  :) Some of us have been trying for about a year to make a pizza like Pizzarium.  What kind of different taste in the crumb did you taste.  Your pizza does look airy.  Did you proof the dough at all?  Your crumb looks like it was springy.  Was it?  It makes me wonder since your dough didnít double in 3 hrs., if you would have left it rise longer, what kind of results you might have gotten.

Nice job.

Norma

Matt,

You are right, that this kind of pizza is a hard one to make.  I also hope Katie can shed some light on the easiest way to make this kind of pizza. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 28, 2011, 08:26:02 AM
John,
This is a tough one to nail & it's hit & miss.  FWIW my starter batch last week was also an Epic Loss.  It was the 1st & last time I use Caputo Red for pizza in Teglia.  To me, the best mix is 85/15 Manitoba to Semola.  Keep at it bro!  Hopefully Katie can shed some light.
BTW: How are the pans?  Mine are still on backorder.

Matt

Matt - I don't have access to Manitoba flour, and quite frankly I still do not know what the equivalent flour is. I thought the 14% Ultimate Performer was it, but apparently not with the results I got. Or it could be my workflow needs a different direction.

On the pans, they made a huge difference in the bake. So much so that I think they do not need to be placed on the stone. The bottoms were very evenly overdone. I seasoned them by oiling and then baking at 375 for 30 minutes.

Norma - Thanks for the encouragement! I am still going to keep at it.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 28, 2011, 08:35:02 AM
Oops I missed the most important links:

http://www.elizabethminchilliinrome.com/2011/01/making-pizza-dough-with-gabriele-bonci.html
http://www.elizabethminchilliinrome.com/2011/01/pizza-as-canvas-creating-toppings-with.html

Another fabulous post from the same blogger:

http://www.elizabethminchilliinrome.com/2011/01/two-cool-trick-pizzas-bonci-again.html

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 28, 2011, 08:48:38 AM
For anyone that might be interested,  I am learning how to navagiate the pizza.it forum.  Here is one post by Marco on making pizza in telgia.  He said one student of  Gabriel did a wonderful pan with Caputo Red and Manitoba. translated:

The pan pizza is the one that Gabriel ...

But in general it is normal to be full of water to cook the whole time, otherwise you bread ....

In Naples, a student of Gabriel did a wonderful pan with the red and Manitoba ....

http://www.pizza.it/forum/pizza/ShowMessage.asp?ID=37210

Another post by Marco.  http://www.pizza.it/forum/pizza/ShowMessage.asp?ID=37194

Translated for anyone that canít read Italian.

Surely everyone can 'do as he wishes, but we clarify a little bit of trivia ....

First of all, if a mill study uses two types of flour for two opposite and instead advice you to reverse, we should begin to take some questions.

The focaccia and pizza in a pan to be made with higher inpasti hydrated, often with double dough, cha need strong flour and / or who have very strong long maturation, and should seek to maintain a gluten that "holds". 

Then explain the theory that with a little flour with baking powder is necessary to use more force ... (And please note here is that the enzymatic activity of the flour that is added with the yeast ...) If I use a stronger flour for pizza I do (see photo) and do not change jobs, I find myself with a gummy pasta and / or closed, perhaps even a little difficult to cut ....

Do you remember the pictures of the eaves of Cyrus made with 100% Barilla??

Pixior one reply to Marco, translated

http://www.pizza.it/forum/pizza/ShowMessage.asp?ID=37138

Hello Mark,

The focaccia and pizza in a pan of flour do not need power because 'the dough to rise and remains stationary when fired and is' more than most of the rise without having to' handle. You can use a higher dose of yeast and thus shorten the time.
For the pizza paddle in hand, and 'better to work with long maturity and with a little yeast. In this way you get the best results Paving and cooking (cornice & co.).

For long rising yeast and with little 'need to use flour with a little' more 'strength. So for me the Red and 'perfect.


... (And please note here is that the enzymatic activity of the flour that is added with the yeast ...) If I use a stronger flour for pizza I do (see photo) and do not change jobs, I find myself with a gummy pasta and / or closed, perhaps even a little difficult to cut ....

This post is by gabriele translated:

http://www.pizza.it/forum/pizza/ShowMessage.asp?ID=2916

Message:
And what did you cut it with the strong?
To the pan, since the absorption and the fear of starting a season in qty poolisch who do you recommend?
I thought of a 50% in the red W360
             20% Manitoba
             30% PIZZASOIA

You say, good or bad knowing a little wheat flour believe the two to reach a trance. to an absorption of 1150/1200 in 1000 of H2o

you say?

cazzeggiano?
preovo?

hello gabriele

another post by gabriele translated:

http://www.pizza.it/forum/pizza/ShowMessage.asp?ID=2933

but but but .... organoleptic analysis .... it is known in the finished product ... and tell me a little stefano .. As if to make the swords?
then there is only soy lecithin, no soy meal (which I do not know it) and no soy flour ...
Cost? You have the list?
Are you using Spadoni?
Not me gusta hang with the white, just maybe a mixture of semolina and large cuts regrind, white makes the jelly ... better a little wet and released it just a little spring that I throw around ... as to whether in fact they are not to start you had a little tolerance for a product such as me knows that I am not na lira ...
Spadoni only know the line from the supermarket.
Give me the site address where you copied the card?

Does this post mean that soy lecithin might be used in Gabrieleís dough?

Another post by Gabriele translated:

http://www.pizza.it/forum/pizza/ShowMessage.asp?ID=2942

.. Well, I use the pan to spread the flour, only the edges and anoint his hands better not, otherwise "tigers" where the oil is imprinted.

Spy on the loaf on the counter until they surrender a bit of force pushing outward (edges) with 3 fingers and press into the dough to bring the beading cabbage, step on the pan, I prefer a 60x40 steel blue food and putting their fingers in the dough the port to the edge of the pan only half working slowly, helping to relax the dough without pulling it, then maybe a dunk before the season I give ... So they taught me, and I tried everything to ungerrmi hands, wet, apply without flour, less flour, but the result is good, without fault gave it to me this method.
Very nice, seems to pull a tissue.
This is why I asked the Spolverini ...
I thought it was a particular cut of good meal.

Does this post mean the dough is proofed after putting the dough in the pan?

I donít know if any of these posts help.  If anyone want me to keep looking, let me know.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jet_deck on January 28, 2011, 09:13:30 AM
Jet_deck,

For your first attempt I think you did great!  Norma


Thank you Norma.  I consider it another work in progress.   The pizza with the most open crumb was springy.  I think the salt and the oil were what made it taste so good.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 28, 2011, 09:42:27 AM
There is an article on Slice by Adam Kuban, this morning on Pizza Roma in NY.  The articles show pictures of the dough.

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/01/greenwich-village-pizza-roma-roman-style-pizza-manhattan-nyc.html#continued

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 28, 2011, 10:39:31 AM
There is an article on Slice by Adam Kuban, this morning on Pizza Roma in NY.  The articles show pictures of the dough.

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/01/greenwich-village-pizza-roma-roman-style-pizza-manhattan-nyc.html#continued

Norma

Funny - That pie and crumb look almost exact to my failed attempt posted yesterday.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: parallei on January 28, 2011, 04:22:10 PM
John,

Well, failed might be a bit strong!  Like your recent pie, the Pizza Roma pie seems to a denser crumb.  I wonder if that is typical for their place.  Their dough certainly looks pretty hydrated. Maybe 96 hrs is too long and the gluten looses it.  I'm liking 85% HR or so. On the other hand, isn't the "Gabriel" recipe like 70% HR.  That dough certainly looks easier to deal with.

Do you like your blue steel pans? Does one need to cure them somehow like cast iron?

Paul
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jet_deck on January 28, 2011, 06:07:31 PM
Could someone tell me what the green things are on top of this pizza in teglia?  Dried Celery spines? Probably not.  Thanks in advance.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1690.msg28913.html#msg28913 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1690.msg28913.html#msg28913)

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on January 28, 2011, 06:09:24 PM
Could someone tell me what the green things are on top of this pizza in teglia?  Dried Celery spines? Probably not.  Thanks in advance.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1690.msg28913.html#msg28913 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1690.msg28913.html#msg28913)



Rosemary
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 29, 2011, 08:12:55 AM
John,

Well, failed might be a bit strong!  Like your recent pie, the Pizza Roma pie seems to a denser crumb.  I wonder if that is typical for their place.  Their dough certainly looks pretty hydrated. Maybe 96 hrs is too long and the gluten looses it.  I'm liking 85% HR or so. On the other hand, isn't the "Gabriel" recipe like 70% HR.  That dough certainly looks easier to deal with.

Do you like your blue steel pans? Does one need to cure them somehow like cast iron?

Paul

Paul - I believe that the 70% hydration used in the class recipe is lower than the production pizza so people can handle the dough. On the pans, they are really great. I am doing another bake on Sunday, so I will do a separate thread on their performance with pics.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 29, 2011, 10:59:49 PM
I did reheat a slice of the recent pizza I had made Tuesday on Thursday.  I also wanted to see how long the remainder of slices would still stay springy, so I reheated some this evening.  The slices still taste good after 4 days.  I wanted to take a video of how springy the slices were on Tuesday, but I forgot.  Tonight I took a video of how the slices are still springy, if anyone is interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nalUBd0r5nk

Two pictures of slices I reheated, one torn apart.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 30, 2011, 07:37:33 PM
Finally getting somewhere!

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on January 30, 2011, 07:44:21 PM
Awe-inspiring. Did you do anything differently from the last one?

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 30, 2011, 07:50:32 PM
Awe-inspiring. Did you do anything differently from the last one?

JLP

Jose - I flip-flopped the flour ratio: 75% Golden Haven, 25% Ultimate Performer.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 30, 2011, 08:44:02 PM
John,

All of those look wonderful!  Great job.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jackie Tran on January 30, 2011, 09:23:17 PM
Nice work John.   :chef:
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 01, 2011, 07:26:19 AM
From the post Toby (foolishpoolish) did before: http://www.elizabethminchilliinrome.com/2011/01/making-pizza-dough-with-gabriele-bonci.html     the videos show how to open dough and grease pans for pizza in teglia, although it says in these videos (in Italian and English) that Gabriele doesnít grease his pans in the bakery.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKotvbfWdU4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWfvaNGmVAc

For anyone that is interested a video about making focaccia from the same channel on YouTube.

Focaccia di Recco

It is interesting to me how thin the dough is and how easily the dough can be stretched.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVoXJ9xF1c0

Another video of Gabriele Bonci making bread.

Gabriele Bonci (Pizzarium) Making Bread

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhRflETfcGA

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: parallei on February 01, 2011, 09:03:52 AM
Your last pies look great John!
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: malvanova on February 01, 2011, 12:26:32 PM
 John I'm coming over where do you live,,,, I'm droolling over HERE!!!!!!!!   :chef: :chef: :chef: :chef: :chef: :chef:
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 01, 2011, 08:23:24 PM
I made another attempt at a Pizzarium-style tonight.  I had started the dough on Sunday and the things I changed were I used the poolish from my Lehmann dough and cake yeast in the final dough.  I also used 80% KASL and 20% Farina ď00" for the flours.  I used the same TF as I did before.  This pie was dressed with crushed LA Valle San Marzano peeled tomatoes, mozzarella, caramelized onions, Italian seasonings, green and red peppers and grape tomatoes .

What I canít understand about this attempt is although I used the same TF in the formula, why the crust got thicker after the bake than my last attempt.  I can post the formula I used. Does anyone know why the thickness would have been different? I also have other pictures if anyone is interested in seeing them. 

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on February 01, 2011, 10:48:56 PM
Magnificent. I'd be very interested to see the formula, bake time/temp, and some more pics.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 01, 2011, 11:12:42 PM
Magnificent. I'd be very interested to see the formula, bake time/temp, and some more pics.

JLP

Jose,

Thanks for thinking this attempt looked good.  :) I used my home oven and the temperature was 500 degrees F.  I baked on my pizza stone in the steel pan. I didnít proof this dough at all after I placed it into the steel pan. The bake time was about 14 minutes.  I first dressed the pie with only the tomato sauce and after it was baked I added the other dressings and put it back into the oven again for a few minutes so the mozzarella would melt.  The other dressings were already ready.  If you have any other questions, just ask.  I used a different blend of flours and also a different way to leaven this dough to see what would happen. 

I still canít figure out why this crust did seem to be thicker.

Other pictures and formula.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 01, 2011, 11:15:43 PM
continued other pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 01, 2011, 11:17:45 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 01, 2011, 11:18:57 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: parallei on February 01, 2011, 11:23:29 PM
Hey Norma.  Nice pies :chef:  And thanks for posting the various links.  I've been enjoying them.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 01, 2011, 11:26:19 PM
Hey Norma.  Nice pies :chef:  And thanks for posting the various links.  I've been enjoying them.

parallei,

Thanks for saying the pie was nice.  :) I don't know, but think those links do really help in understand how to make a Pizzarium pie.  At least they helped me and I even used different flours this time and a different way to leaven the dough.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on February 02, 2011, 12:01:43 AM

I still canít figure out why this crust did seem to be thicker.

I can't speak for leavening methods and flours that I've never tried- but could it be to some extent because you didn't proof it in the pan? No pan-proofing=bigger bubbles=greater thickness?

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 02, 2011, 05:18:18 AM
Norma - I think you have a winning recipe! Did you do the same hand mix/fold/fermentation regimen?

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 02, 2011, 06:36:34 AM
I can't speak for leavening methods and flours that I've never tried- but could it be to some extent because you didn't proof it in the pan? No pan-proofing=bigger bubbles=greater thickness?

JLP

Jose,

From the one blog that was referenced before there is another post, that I donít know if you saw or not.  The blogger siad Gabriele Bonci was like an artist-behind-the-pizza.  The blogger said she learned how to make and bake the dough.  This is part of that post. We learned to  mix, lay it out in the pan, and either leave it bianca - drizzled with a bit of oil and salt - or rosso, with just some pelati on top. In Bonciís world, you do this first: prime the canvas, then start layering on the tastes only AFTER youíve baked it.  Did you hear that? No piling on of cheeses, vegetables and meats until the pizza is completely cooked. Remember, this is Pizza al Taglio we are talking about, not small round, single serving sized pizzas. 

So the procedure is as follows.
Make dough.
Let rise.
Lay dough in pan.
Drizzle with oil, or top with a very thin layer of tomatoes.*
Bake.
Let cool slightly.
Top!

And the added extra-cool bonus of this method? You can bake the crusts ahead of time, and finish them off at the last minute for your pizza party. Makes you want to try this at home, right?

Isnít that what you are looking for Jose, a crust that can be made ahead of time and then dressed later?

http://www.elizabethminchilliinrome.com/2011/01/pizza-as-canvas-creating-toppings-with.html

This is where you can let your imagination run wild. But even Bonci has some rules. For instance, never more than three toppings. ďThatís a balanced pizza,Ē he says, ďAnything more would be too much.Ē

That post from the blogger, got me thinking there is no need for a proof like I did before.  The blogger just made that post last Tuesday, after I had made the other attempt at market.   

To me, this dough reminds me of a Tartine Bread dough.  They both act the same in my opinion. Does anyone else that has tried this kind of dough have the same opinions? The dough is highly hydrated and needs stretch and folds to become manageable and form a better gluten-structure.  If you watch the one video I referenced before, you can see how  Gabriele stretches out the dough, by pressing on the rim and forming more bubbles in the middle, by lightly pressing with his fingers on the dough.  In my opinion the dough has to be made right to get the bubbles in the finished crust.  Anyone else that is trying to make this kind of pizza have the same opinions as I do?  If not, could they please share with me what your opinions are in trying to make this dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 02, 2011, 07:07:58 AM
Norma - I think you have a winning recipe! Did you do the same hand mix/fold/fermentation regimen?

John


John,

I was pleased with the recent results, but donít think I am there yet.  Your latest Pizzarium pie looked a lot lighter than my recent attempt.   

I was playing around with the Tartine bread in the last day also and I found by using a lower protein flour, I got a much lighter crumb.  Although my crumb wasnít exactly right on the Tartine Bread, I was amazed at how light the crumb was.  When I took a taste of a slice, it almost melted in my mouth.  This is a link to the bread I made last evening.  I didnít wait to cut my Tartine bread until it was cool, so the real crumb didnít show.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12042.msg125507.html#msg125507

Do you also think a lower protein flour might make this kind of pizza lighter in the crumb?  What kind of protein did your flour have in your mix?  I have another batch fermenting in the refrigerator, with a lower protein content to try later today.  I made that batch on Monday evening.  I want to see if a lower protein flour can make a difference in how light the crumb is.  I donít know if I will be able to get any decent comparison, because I am going to try to make a smaller attempt in another kind of pan that isnít steel.  Who knows how that attempt will go.  It is just an experiment.

At some point I do want to try this flour like is used at Pizzarium.  It is expensive, but I just want to see if the flour does make the difference in the crumb.  Do you know which one of these flours would be the kind Pizzarium uses?

http://www.formaggiokitchen.com/shop/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=mulino+marino

I gave this recent dough many stretch and folds, the same way I made the Tartine bread dough.  I would have thought all the stretch and folds would have made a denser crust, but that wasnít what happened, when I used a lower protein flour with the Tartine bread.  What thoughts do you have on this.  I also really gave the dough a long mix time in my Kitchen Aid mixer with using the method of slowly adding the flour and then giving the dough an autolyse before adding the salt and oil.  My total mix time was 30 minutes for this last attempt and my Tartine Bread attempt.  I donít know, but so far, think either of these highly hydrated doughs are hard to ruin.  I didnít count how many stretch and folds I gave this recent dough, but it was a lot. 

Do you mind sharing all what went into your recent Pizzarium master pieces?  Yours looked spot on.  ;D You crumb looked lighter than mine.  What was your total mix time and did you also use stretch and folds and how many? Also what was your TF?  I would be interested in hearing how you went about the process of making your dough.  Anything you remember about your recent attempt would be helpful.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 02, 2011, 07:46:20 AM

Do you mind sharing all what went into your recent Pizzarium master pieces?

Norma - Thanks so much for your detailed reply. Truthfully, I am still perplexed on what the "correct" flour for this type of pizza should be. I had great results with a very weak flour supplemented with HG. You had stellar results with Durum, which is a strong flour, and similar results with KASL. Matthew does this in his sleep with Manitoba, and Jose uses super strong canadian flours. Gabrielle Bonci uses what I assume is high protein flour for his production at Pizzarium, but teaches a class with a medium protein flour and treats it like bread (minimal folds, and no mixer). BTW, the Marino flour he used in the class is Burrata, which is not listed on that website link you posted.

After obsessing about this for the last few weeks, buying the Suas book, reading everything Didier Rosada wrote on the internet, and trying out many different approaches, here is what I taking away with pizza in teglia:

1. Our flour is NOT the same as italian flour. High protein Italian flour does not act like north american high protein does. They (the italians) developed a procedure for pizza in teglia which uses the flour they had, which might not translate for flours here. They chose high protein to cope with the long fermentation. They chose a long fermentation for digestibility, which makes sense given the style of pizza in teglia.

2. I think most any flour can be used for pizza in teglia, and you just have to tailor the workflow to suit it. I am still finding my way here. I think you have a winning recipe Norma. But a lower protein flour, supplemented with some higher, will have a more tender crumb and will be able to reheat with that tenderness.

3. Pizza in teglia is bread, plain and simple, with toppings. It was originally meant to be baked, set out for display, and be eaten room temp or reheated. We get the luxury of making and eating it right out of the oven.

I would love to hear other's thoughts on the flour topic.

Here is the formula for my latest effort:

Flour (100%):    1504.91 g  |  53.08 oz | 3.32 lbs (75% Organic Golden Haven [11.5% P], 25% Ultimate Performer [14% P] - both Giusto's)
Water (80%):    1203.92 g  |  42.47 oz | 2.65 lbs
CY (1%):       15.05 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs | PLUS two tablespoons of starter for added acidity during ferment
Salt (2.5%):    37.62 g | 1.33 oz | 0.08 lbs | 7.84 tsp | 2.61 tbsp
Oil (3%):       45.15 g | 1.59 oz | 0.1 lbs | 10.03 tsp | 3.34 tbsp
Total (186.5%):   2806.65 g | 99 oz | 6.19 lbs | TF = 0.15 (pan size 15" x 11")
Single Ball:      701.66 g | 24.75 oz | 1.55 lbs

80% of water, flour, yeast, oil, mixed until combined, autolyse for 40 minutes. Salt and rest of water squeezed in. Six turns over 2 hours. 48 hours refrigerated. Balled and proofed for 4 hours before bake. Rosso for 2 and just olive oil on the other two, baked for 12 minutes (in my new pans!). Topped, baked for another 8-10 minutes.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jackie Tran on February 02, 2011, 08:22:52 AM
Norma - as far as pizzarium dough reminding you of Tartine bread dough.  I would have to agree.  If we increase the hydration ratio and added oil to the Tartine bread dough, we have pizzarium dough.   If you compare the 2 crumb structures, they can be similar.  I see the pizzarium's crumb structure closer to something inbetween a  tartine crumb and a ciabatta crumb.   Something closer to a ciabatta crumb but not quite as aerated.  IMO, dough is dough.  There are wet doughs and dry doughs.  They are all made with the same foundational knowledge & ingredients and then take off into their own specialties.  They are made & handled uniquely and thus give unique finishing characteristics but the same foundation is there. 

As far as lower protein flours producing lighter crumbs, I absolutely agree.  It makes sense b/c there is relatively less protein to chew on.  :-D  Aside from that I have found the same in my kitchen.  I can make very light, lofty, airy crumbs with caputo 00 flour and I can do the same with HG bromated flours.  BUT if you place both products side by side, then the lower protein flour has the edge. 

Here is the one of the comparison's I did between 00 and HG flour.  Reply #1-#4
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12538.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12538.0.html)
Here the HG bread was lighter!  WHAT?  ???  WHY? I didn't maximize the caputo's potential in that bake.

Here is another caputo 00 and HG flour comparison where the caputo won out. 
Reply #21-#23
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12538.20.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12538.20.html)
This is where I got the hydration, kneading, fermentation, & bake all balanced out well.  Both were excellent but the lower protein flour pie was lighter.  But again, you can make a nearly identical pie in lightness using anyflour.

Here is the lightest loaf of bread I have made so far using mostly All Trumps HG bromated flour.  Same thread, reply #80
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12538.80.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12538.80.html)



1. Our flour is NOT the same as italian flour. High protein Italian flour does not act like north american high protein does. They (the italians) developed a procedure for pizza in teglia which uses the flour they had, which might not translate for flours here. They chose high protein to cope with the long fermentation. They chose a long fermentation for digestibility, which makes sense given the style of pizza in teglia.

2. I think most any flour can be used for pizza in teglia, and you just have to tailor the workflow to suit it. I am still finding my way here. I think you have a winning recipe Norma. But a lower protein flour, supplemented with some higher, will have a more tender crumb and will be able to reheat with that tenderness.

3. Pizza in teglia is bread, plain and simple, with toppings. It was originally meant to be baked, set out for display, and be eaten room temp or reheated. We get the luxury of making and eating it right out of the oven.


John, I absolutely agree with your statements here.   The masters, over time have learned how to use the ingredients and tools they have to get the most they can out of what they have.   By using what we have available to us, I believe that the pizzarium crumb can be made using almost any flour as long as one makes the necessary adjustments to the hydration, gluten development, fermentation, handling, and bake.  I wish I had more time to play around with this dough/crumb.  I have been far too busy with my own pizza and bread experiments though.  Looks like you all are having a lot of fun and making great progress.  I guess the trick is to be able to make a consistent product that you are happy with.

I told a friend on the phone last night that most pizza operators would be well satisfied to serve the kind of pizzas you guys and gals are making here.  We here on the forum are a more particular bunch than that.  Not satisfied with just mediocrity and the taste alone, but it must be visually satisfying as well.  Good luck gang. 8)

Chau
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 02, 2011, 08:25:48 AM
John,
You're right on buddy.  As far as flours go, alot of places likely use a Pizza in teglia mix which seems to be comprised of soft wheat type 0, semola di grano duro, sourdough & soya lecithin.

Matt

(Edit) I forgot to mention; The flour that I use is on average only 12.5% protein
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 02, 2011, 08:33:30 AM
Norma - Thanks so much for your detailed reply. Truthfully, I am still perplexed on what the "correct" flour for this type of pizza should be. I had great results with a very weak flour supplemented with HG. You had stellar results with Durum, which is a strong flour, and similar results with KASL. Matthew does this in his sleep with Manitoba, and Jose uses super strong canadian flours. Gabrielle Bonci uses what I assume is high protein flour for his production at Pizzarium, but teaches a class with a medium protein flour and treats it like bread (minimal folds, and no mixer). BTW, the Marino flour he used in the class is Burrata, which is not listed on that website link you posted.

After obsessing about this for the last few weeks, buying the Suas book, reading everything Didier Rosada wrote on the internet, and trying out many different approaches, here is what I taking away with pizza in teglia:

1. Our flour is NOT the same as italian flour. High protein Italian flour does not act like north american high protein does. They (the italians) developed a procedure for pizza in teglia which uses the flour they had, which might not translate for flours here. They chose high protein to cope with the long fermentation. They chose a long fermentation for digestibility, which makes sense given the style of pizza in teglia.

2. I think most any flour can be used for pizza in teglia, and you just have to tailor the workflow to suit it. I am still finding my way here. I think you have a winning recipe Norma. But a lower protein flour, supplemented with some higher, will have a more tender crumb and will be able to reheat with that tenderness.

3. Pizza in teglia is bread, plain and simple, with toppings. It was originally meant to be baked, set out for display, and be eaten room temp or reheated. We get the luxury of making and eating it right out of the oven.

I would love to hear other's thoughts on the flour topic.

Here is the formula for my latest effort:

Flour (100%):    1504.91 g  |  53.08 oz | 3.32 lbs (75% Organic Golden Haven [11.5% P], 25% Ultimate Performer [14% P] - both Giusto's)
Water (80%):    1203.92 g  |  42.47 oz | 2.65 lbs
CY (1%):       15.05 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs | PLUS two tablespoons of starter for added acidity during ferment
Salt (2.5%):    37.62 g | 1.33 oz | 0.08 lbs | 7.84 tsp | 2.61 tbsp
Oil (3%):       45.15 g | 1.59 oz | 0.1 lbs | 10.03 tsp | 3.34 tbsp
Total (186.5%):   2806.65 g | 99 oz | 6.19 lbs | TF = 0.15 (pan size 15" x 11")
Single Ball:      701.66 g | 24.75 oz | 1.55 lbs

80% of water, flour, yeast, oil, mixed until combined, autolyse for 40 minutes. Salt and rest of water squeezed in. Six turns over 2 hours. 48 hours refrigerated. Balled and proofed for 4 hours before bake. Rosso for 2 and just olive oil on the other two, baked for 12 minutes (in my new pans!). Topped, baked for another 8-10 minutes.

John

John,

Thank you also for your very detailed reply.  I am also perplexed at what kind of flours to try.  I really liked the results with Durum flour and Caputo, but think I still might get better results with more experiments.  This style of pizza is hard, in my opinion.  I can understand the classes Gabrielle Bonci teaches to make pizza in teglia, probably isnít the real way he uses to make his pizza in teglia.  He is a bread baker, so he is much more advanced in understanding all this than I am.  I can understand how this kind of pizza and bread are related.  I have also read many teachings of Didier Rosada and Professor Calvel and am trying to put all their teachings in what I am trying to do.  I think I have to pull all up what I have learned so far in trying to make pizza in teglia You are more advance in pizza making and bread making than I am, so I value your opinions.   

I agree the Italian flour and any flours we might try, still arenít going to be the same, but I believe there must be some way to get about the same results.  I also am still trying to tailor my workflow to suit other flours. 

Your addition of starter added for increase acidity is interesting.  Thanks for giving your formula.

I also would like to know other members opinions on what I might be doing wrong or even on flours. 

I hope to get some real blue steel pans to try someday.  Your blue steel pans really seem to work well.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 02, 2011, 08:57:16 AM
Chau,

I appreciate your opinions on how this Pizzarium dough is like the Tartine Bread dough without the oil.  I could see from my last few experiments just how similar they are.  I also agree that the same foundation is used, (for bread and pizza)  in handling flour and workflow, there can be different results.  I am now leaning towards a lower protein flour to try.  I will see how my results turn out later today with a lower protein flour. 

I also appreciate all your experiments.  :) They have all helped me understand how different flours, hydration and other things happen with dough. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 02, 2011, 01:06:29 PM
Sorry, but I made a mistake in posting the formula I used in last nights bake at Reply 362 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg125523.html#msg125523

That is the formula I am using for todayís attempt. The formula I used for last nights bake is at Reply 274 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg124387.html#msg124387 and I used durum flour 80% and Farnia ď00" flour 20% in the mix.  After I went over my notes later this morning I saw where I made the mistake.   I had too many experiments going at once and posted wrong on what I used.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on February 02, 2011, 03:20:37 PM
The idea of doing this with a lower-protein flour is intriguing. I have easy, supermarket access to an organic, unbleached, locally-milled French T55-grade flour, which is within the range of Italian Tipo 0 or American AP. This particular brand (Milanaise) is supposed to be of extremely high quality and has a cult following among the makers of artisanal baguettes across this continent. Baguettes, of course, aren't the same thing as pizza, but on the other hand this guy got a result with this flour that's highly suggestive for purposes of this thread: http://www.breadcetera.com/?p=477 (http://www.breadcetera.com/?p=477). I may have to score a bag of this stuff soon.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 02, 2011, 03:58:16 PM
The idea of doing this with a lower-protein flour is intriguing. I have easy, supermarket access to an organic, unbleached, locally-milled French T55-grade flour, which is within the range of Italian Tipo 0 or American AP. This particular brand (Milanaise) is supposed to be of extremely high quality and has a cult following among the makers of artisanal baguettes across this continent. Baguettes, of course, aren't the same thing as pizza, but on the other hand this guy got a result with this flour that's highly suggestive for purposes of this thread: http://www.breadcetera.com/?p=477 (http://www.breadcetera.com/?p=477). I may have to score a bag of this stuff soon.

JLP

Jose,

I donít know what kind of results you will get using Milanaise flour, but it might be an interesting experiment to try.  You might need to do longer mixing or more stretch and folds if you decide to use a high hydration dough, if using a lower protein flour.  I am not sure about this, but just thinking about the results I had recently.  The link you referenced does look like that man is getting great results from that flour. 

Best of luck if you decide to experiment with the new flour. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 02, 2011, 05:04:38 PM
Quote
You might need to do longer mixing or more stretch and folds if you decide to use a high hydration dough, if using a lower protein flour.  I am not sure about this, but just thinking about the results I had recently.  The link you referenced does look like that man is getting great results from that flour. 

Best of luck if you decide to experiment with the new flour. 

Norma

Very true on the need for attention to gluten development with that flour, as Norma pointed out. Notice that in the directions for that recipe, he uses the slap and fold technique upwards of 200 times to develop the crumb you see in the baguettes. If you added a percentage of high gluten flour, you would obviously not need that much. He also only does a 24 hour ferment. If you do a 48 hour one, all the better for gluten. I am also eager to see your results using this flour.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: parallei on February 02, 2011, 05:26:31 PM
I'm still thinking that the AP fllour can do O.K.   I keep thinking back to my attempts at no-knead pizza bianca.  All AP flour and it just sits for 8 or 9 ours with one or two flods at the end of that period.  Who knows, not me......
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: doughboy55 on February 02, 2011, 06:14:42 PM
Very true on the need for attention to gluten development with that flour, as Norma pointed out. Notice that in the directions for that recipe, he uses the slap and fold technique upwards of 200 times to develop the crumb you see in the baguettes. If you added a percentage of high gluten flour, you would obviously not need that much. He also only does a 24 hour ferment. If you do a 48 hour one, all the better for gluten. I am also eager to see your results using this flour.

John
I currently am using KAAP flour and KA organic high gluten flour (14%P), should i follow the instructions you gave me earlier or should i adjust anything for this flour?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 02, 2011, 06:15:55 PM
I currently am using KAAP flour and KA organic high gluten flour (14%P), should i follow the instructions you gave me earlier or should i adjust anything for this flour?

No need to adjust the directions I gave you.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 02, 2011, 06:18:06 PM
I'm still thinking that the AP fllour can do O.K.   I keep thinking back to my attempts at no-knead pizza bianca.  All AP flour and it just sits for 8 or 9 ours with one or two flods at the end of that period.  Who knows, not me......

AP works great - I did a similar same-day test earlier in the thread using 20% starter. Your bianca looks better though.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 02, 2011, 10:13:20 PM
This was my next attempt this evening.  I was away, and when I came home the dough sitting on my kitchen table looked like it was too soft (or relaxed), so I gave it another stretch and fold and let it sit another hour.  I donít think I left the dough relax enough after the stretch and fold, because I was in a hurry. I wanted to see what would happen with this dough if I left it proof after having it in the deep-dish non steel pan.  I left the dough proof with olive oil on the skin for 45 minutes, with a towel.  This pie did rise well while in the oven and stayed that way after I took it out of the oven, but I wanted to get this pie finished so I quickly dressed it.  I think I should have waited a little while before I dressed it, but I am not sure of that.  I then put the pie back into the oven until the cheese was melted.

Although this pie did taste good, I am still not satisfied with how this compares to the pie I had made at market before.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 02, 2011, 10:15:14 PM
rest of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on February 03, 2011, 10:09:55 AM
Norma: Nice looking slices there. What was the difference between them and what you baked at market last week?

JLP

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 03, 2011, 11:33:21 AM
Norma: Nice looking slices there. What was the difference between them and what you baked at market last week?

JLP



Jose,

The crumb of this pizza wasnít as light as the crumb at market.  The slices at market were much lighter and there was a better crumb structure.  I am still trying to decide what flours to use for another attempt.  I might try Better for Bread flour in combination with either durum or some kind of Caputo.  If anyone thinks this would be a decent approach for my next attempt, let me know.  I did get good results with using Better for Bread flour in my Tartine bread.  The crumb was really light and the slices of bread almost melted in my mouth when eaten. 

As anyone can see by the pictures the pie did rise well in the oven, but when I cut it, there wasnít as much crumb structure as I thought there would be.  I still donít know if I hadnít given the dough ball  another stretch and fold if maybe there would have been a lighter crumb.  The dough felt very light and airy before I gave it another stretch and fold.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on February 03, 2011, 12:46:36 PM
I dug up and translated a few posts from Massimo of Pizzeria Bosco which I think are highly relevant here. If any Italian-speakers see any blatant errors in my trans. please advise ASAP.

"[C]on lievitazione in teglia, cioŤ con ancora produzione di anidride carbonica in teglia, non si puo' dire "alla Romana", che prevede la stesura in teglia, e la sua cottura, senza aspettare la lievitazione, perchŤ semplicemente, Ť giŗ fatta".

With a pan rise, i.e. with further production of co2 gas in the pan, it can't be said to be "alla Romana", which latter calls for forming it in the pan, and then baking it, without waiting for it to rise, since quite simply, it's already done.

Non puoi chiamare teglia alla Romana, una pasta che fai lievitare in teglia. Sarŗ una pizza alla teglia, ma non alla Romana, sono due tecniche diverse".

You can't call it teglia alla Romana if the dough is risen in the pan. It would be a pizza alla teglia, but not alla Romana, those are two different techniques.

"Per esempio la focaccia pugliese, o la genovese, Ť una pasta lievitata, o meglio, finisce di lievitare in teglia, e non ha certo gli alveoli che vedi nella mia pizza, che Ť lavorazione alla romana, con idratazioni anche al 90-95%".

For example focaccia Pugliese, or Genovese, is a dough that is risen, or better yet, finishes rising in the pan, and certainly doesn't have the alveoles you see on my pizza, which is made the Roman way, even at 90-95% hydration.

"[C]he con una lievitazione in teglia, gli alveoli come quelli che vedi nelle mie foto, non ti escono, e anche il prodotto fini quindi sarŗ diverso. Con lavorazione alla romana, il prodotto ha una conservazione migliore e piu' lunga, la puoi riscaldare anche dopo 6 ore, e torna come appena fatta, rimane morbida sopra e con un leggero velo croccante sotto".

With a pan-rise, you won't get the sort of alveoles you see in my pics, and furthermore the end result will be different. With the Roman method, the result keeps better and for longer, it can be reheated after 6 hours, and it will be just like it was when it was first made, remaining soft on the top and with a light crispy layer on the bottom.



Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 03, 2011, 01:13:20 PM
Jose - Thank you for posting these quotes. Very informative.

And Matt - Thanks for posting the pizza in teglia mix ingredients awhile back. Where did you find that info?

Norma - I am also trying a "bread flour" recipe this weekend. I am doing 75% KABF and 25% Ultimate Performer high gluten. Let's compare notes after the bake if you decide to use Better for Bread in combination with Durum.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 03, 2011, 05:05:24 PM
And Matt - Thanks for posting the pizza in teglia mix ingredients awhile back. Where did you find that info?


No problem John.  I read it from the pizza.it forum a while back.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 03, 2011, 05:11:22 PM
Jose,

I also want to thank you for the information. 

John,

Thanks for posting what you are going to try this weekend.  I donít think I am going to try and make anymore dough until Sunday, because I have too many slices leftover (also from another pizza I made).  I did give some away, but I am only one person trying to eat the other slices.  I hope your bake and formula go well.  If you want to, we can compare our bakes if I get to go to market Tuesday.  It is supposed to snow again and I would really like to try out my deck oven, where I got better results.  What temperature are you baking?  I did decide to try Better for Bread flour in combination with durum flour.  I donít know if I am going to use a poolish or just use CY.  Hopefully soon I will be able to get a blue steel pan.

Matt,

Thanks, too!

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Elizabeth Minchilli on February 04, 2011, 03:06:12 AM
I'm very happy to see that my posts made it into the Pizzarium thread. I'm new here, and not so sure how to navigate comments etc. So hope this is getting out there.
If you missed it, I had the enormous good fortune to be able take two classes with Gabriele Bonci, owner of Pizzarium. The first was a 2-day bread class, the 2nd a 2-day pizza class. For my posts see my web site elizabethminchilliinrome.com
(sorry, this site won't let me post direct hyper links)
I'm slowly going through various queries about the flour, etc. and will try to answer as best I can. I'll also try to get Gabriele to chime in, via his assistant Elisia, who speaks English.

He is on FB, by the way, as Bonci Bo and Gabriele Bonci.
And if you search on youtube, there are many clips of him on Italian TV.

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 04, 2011, 05:37:26 AM
I'm very happy to see that my posts made it into the Pizzarium thread. I'm new here, and not so sure how to navigate comments etc. So hope this is getting out there.
If you missed it, I had the enormous good fortune to be able take two classes with Gabriele Bonci, owner of Pizzarium. The first was a 2-day bread class, the 2nd a 2-day pizza class. For my posts see my web site elizabethminchilliinrome.com
(sorry, this site won't let me post direct hyper links)
I'm slowly going through various queries about the flour, etc. and will try to answer as best I can. I'll also try to get Gabriele to chime in, via his assistant Elisia, who speaks English.

He is on FB, by the way, as Bonci Bo and Gabriele Bonci.
And if you search on youtube, there are many clips of him on Italian TV.



Elizabeth,
Welcome to the forum!  I have read your posts & they are fantastic & very helpful.  As you can see, a few of us have been trying to duplicate the master Gabriele's creations & it has been hit & miss.  I toally agree that handling is key to the end result.  I have personally studied it in great depth & I'm pretty sure that I have it down pat.  My biggest confusion is the flour.  I have tried many combinations using Caputo Red, Caputo Blue, Hard Spring Wheat, Semola, etc but have yet to achieve the "perfect blend".  My next attempt will be using grano tenero (soft wheat) & semola rimacinata di grano duro.  I'm thinking of a 75/25 blend.  What do you think & or recommend?  Any insight will be extremely helpful.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 04, 2011, 06:47:03 AM
I'm very happy to see that my posts made it into the Pizzarium thread.

Elizabeth - I am so glad you made it over here and decided to participate. In my email, I had asked about crumb shots from your class - feel free to post them here so everyone has a chance to see. Again, welcome.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 04, 2011, 07:28:33 AM
I'm very happy to see that my posts made it into the Pizzarium thread. I'm new here, and not so sure how to navigate comments etc. So hope this is getting out there.
If you missed it, I had the enormous good fortune to be able take two classes with Gabriele Bonci, owner of Pizzarium. The first was a 2-day bread class, the 2nd a 2-day pizza class. For my posts see my web site elizabethminchilliinrome.com
(sorry, this site won't let me post direct hyper links)
I'm slowly going through various queries about the flour, etc. and will try to answer as best I can. I'll also try to get Gabriele to chime in, via his assistant Elisia, who speaks English.

He is on FB, by the way, as Bonci Bo and Gabriele Bonci.
And if you search on youtube, there are many clips of him on Italian TV.



Elizabeth,

I am also glad to see you on the forum.  Welcome!  I enjoy your blog and how you detailed everything you learned while taking classes from  Gabriele Bonci.  :) You have a wealth of knowledge.  Have you tried to make pizza in teglia, since you took the classes?  I also would be interested in knowing what kinds of flours to try. 

I also have been trying different attempts to make pizza in teglia, with many different results.

This is your blog.   http://www.elizabethminchilliinrome.com/

After you have five posts, I think you can post links.  I did post on your blog as learning pizza maker.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Elizabeth Minchilli on February 04, 2011, 08:49:56 AM
I will try to post more on flours used in the next few days. I know that we used all flours from Mulino Marino, but have to look at my notes to see exactly which ones. The most important thing, according to Bonci is the flours, and that they be organic, freshly milled. I'll be back with much more specific info.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on February 04, 2011, 10:30:11 AM
Hi Elizabeth! It's beyond delightful that somebody with first-hand knowledge of the subject found this thread, and anything you would care to contribute will be deeply appreciated. Pizza in teglia alla Romana is an obscure topic in North America to say the very least, but interest is growing and progress in understanding the style is being made (as you can see in this thread through its 20-something sprawling pages). Mind you, most of that progress has come from a combination of studying pictures, reading badly-translated Italian-language blogs and forum posts, guesswork, and above all experimentation; I've never even been to Pizzarium  :-[ . Once again, I really look forward to learning from your direct experience and contacts. If you have any questions about navigating the comments or anything else just ask.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on February 04, 2011, 01:58:52 PM
In light of John and Norma's remarks above, I decided to put off the baguette flour experiment for a while on the grounds that I probably don't have enough technique yet to make the most of a lower-protein flour. So I decided I'd try a dough with 100% of my normal, higher protein AP instead. 88% hydration, .3% IDY, 2% salt, 4% oil. Then I figured I'd try to make it entirely by hand with no machine assistance. Oh yeah, that was a much better idea than my original plan ::). Out of one frying pan, into another, much bigger one... :-[

I mixed it into a mass, dumped it onto the board, and tried some slap-and-folds. So far, so good. Then I noticed a lot was sticking to the board, so I picked it up and did some stretch-and-folds between my hands. Pretty soon, the stuff was firmly stuck to my hands, much like the giant spider-web in some 50s-era horror movie. I kept on going, and eventually got something that could pried off my hands and placed on the bench, albeit at the cost of mashing in more bench flour than I wanted as well as additional oil. I then did a few stretch and folds, and some push-and-folds (the latter because I wanted to re-incorporate the considerable amount of dough that had stuck to my hands). I left the ball alone for 20 minutes, did less than 3 minutes worth of push-and-folds, left it another 20, and did less than 1 minute of the same. By now, it was a very nice, smooth ball, but it seemed kind of "tight" and I hope I didn't overdo things. In any case, it is now in the fridge where it's going to spend 48 hours.

JLP 
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 04, 2011, 05:28:51 PM
In light of John and Norma's remarks above, I decided to put off the baguette flour experiment for a while on the grounds that I probably don't have enough technique yet to make the most of a lower-protein flour. So I decided I'd try a dough with 100% of my normal, higher protein AP instead. 88% hydration, .3% IDY, 2% salt, 4% oil. Then I figured I'd try to make it entirely by hand with no machine assistance. Oh yeah, that was a much better idea than my original plan ::). Out of one frying pan, into another, much bigger one... :-[

I mixed it into a mass, dumped it onto the board, and tried some slap-and-folds. So far, so good. Then I noticed a lot was sticking to the board, so I picked it up and did some stretch-and-folds between my hands. Pretty soon, the stuff was firmly stuck to my hands, much like the giant spider-web in some 50s-era horror movie. I kept on going, and eventually got something that could pried off my hands and placed on the bench, albeit at the cost of mashing in more bench flour than I wanted as well as additional oil. I then did a few stretch and folds, and some push-and-folds (the latter because I wanted to re-incorporate the considerable amount of dough that had stuck to my hands). I left the ball alone for 20 minutes, did less than 3 minutes worth of push-and-folds, left it another 20, and did less than 1 minute of the same. By now, it was a very nice, smooth ball, but it seemed kind of "tight" and I hope I didn't overdo things. In any case, it is now in the fridge where it's going to spend 48 hours.

JLP 

Jose,

You have me laughing out loud with your post.  I have seen when trying to work with a high hydration dough how it can be hard to understand what to do, until enough experiments are done.  Is this the first time you mixed a high hydration dough by hand?

I donít know what techniques John or other members that are trying to make this dough do, but I have made the Tartine bread dough by hand, but I never tried to make any of my recent doughs for this thread by hand.  I use my Kitchen Aid Professional HD and in recent attempts and have added the flour slowly and kept mixing until the gluten formed. (which in my mixer can take awhile for a high hydration dough) At least until the dough almost clears the mixing bowl. Then I do series of stretch and folds until the dough becomes less sticky.  I keep doing these over periods of time.  I usually wet my hands so the dough doesnít stick, but a little still does. The dough even can sometimes become slack again.  I donít know, but read different places that the extra water doesnít matter in the formula.  I can see when I think the dough is getting to the point of being able to be used. In some of my experiments I did stretch and folds and then left the dough in the refrigerator over night and did more stretch and folds the next day.  So far I never had to add any extra flour when trying to open the skin. (only a normal amount, that I usually use to open any skin) 

Best of luck when trying your dough.  :)  Maybe one of the other members can also tell how they mix a high hydration dough. Maybe we all can learn.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: parallei on February 04, 2011, 10:24:32 PM
Jose.

Re:  The wet dough - A bench scrapper can be a wonderful thing!  I use one for folding sloppy dough and, if lightly floured, it is just the ticket for me.

Paul
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on February 04, 2011, 10:41:18 PM
Norma: Yes, it's the first time I ever mixed a dough that heavily hydrated by hand. It's something I plan on doing again (in a more controlled way) if I get a decent result out of this effort.

Parallei: I almost forgot what a bench scrapper was until you brought it up, since I usually don't need one- but now I can sure see how one would come in handy.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 05, 2011, 05:13:00 AM
The link below offers a comprehensive explanation of Italian Flours

http://www.practicallyedible.com/edible.nsf/pages/italianflours.

Based on what I've read/seen, I think a good blend would be 1/3 organic bread flour, 1/3 semola di grano duro, 1/3 farina di grano tenero (pastry flour).  The above blend will yield a protein value of about 11.2%. I would also do what John did & add a little cold starter to add some acidity.  As witnessed by Elizabeth, the formula is only a small piece of the puzzle, the technique is by far the most important factor in determining the end result.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 05, 2011, 06:36:36 AM
The link below offers a comprehensive explanation of Italian Flours

http://www.practicallyedible.com/edible.nsf/pages/italianflours.

Based on what I've read/seen, I think a good blend would be 1/3 organic bread flour, 1/3 semola di grano duro, 1/3 farina di grano tenero (pastry flour).  The above blend will yield a protein value of about 11.2%. I would also do what John did & add a little cold starter to add some acidity.  As witnessed by Elizabeth, the formula is only a small piece of the puzzle, the technique is by far the most important factor in determining the end result.

Matt

Matt - Excellent link and analysis. Yesterday I put together a 50% AP (365 Organic), 25% Organic KABF, and 25% Guisto's Organic Ultimate Performer - in the neighborhood of your recommended flour composition. I will post results on sunday after the bake.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 05, 2011, 06:39:33 AM
Matt - Excellent link and analysis. Yesterday I put together a 50% AP (365 Organic), 25% Organic KABF, and 25% Guisto's Organic Ultimate Performer - in the neighborhood of your recommended flour composition. I will post results on sunday after the bake.

John

Thanks John, I look forward to it.  No pans yet, still on back order.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 05, 2011, 07:32:16 AM
A post from 2007 showing the Pizzarium crumb - very interesting:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5754.msg48962.html#msg48962

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 05, 2011, 07:44:51 AM
The link below offers a comprehensive explanation of Italian Flours

http://www.practicallyedible.com/edible.nsf/pages/italianflours.

Based on what I've read/seen, I think a good blend would be 1/3 organic bread flour, 1/3 semola di grano duro, 1/3 farina di grano tenero (pastry flour).  The above blend will yield a protein value of about 11.2%. I would also do what John did & add a little cold starter to add some acidity.  As witnessed by Elizabeth, the formula is only a small piece of the puzzle, the technique is by far the most important factor in determining the end result.

Matt

Matt,

Thanks for the article and analysis of what flours to try in combination.   When I used my last formula at Reply 362 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg125523.html#msg125523 and then tried to make the pizza at Reply 385 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg125637.html#msg125637 I could see how much harder that flour combination was to form the gluten.  That dough ball kept becoming slack again, even after all the stretch and folds, until finally it appeared to be formed okay.  I wouldnít think when using KASL in combination with another flour the gluten would have been so hard to from.  That is a high protein flour.  I will have to rethink what blend I will try next.  I do think however, I am going to have part Better for Bread flour in the mix.

I also agree the techniques used in making this kind of dough are important.  Do you mind telling what kind of tecniques you used in forming the gluten.  Are they anything like my techniques.

John,

Best of luck with your bake and thanks for the link to the picture of a real Pizzarium slice.  I have looked at pictures under Google images of Pizzarium slices and different pictures have a different crumb look.  I wonder why the crumb would look different on different slices.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 05, 2011, 08:20:45 AM
Matt,


Do you mind telling what kind of tecniques you used in forming the gluten.  Are they anything like my techniques.


Norma

Norma I do a double hydration using my spiral mixer.  In the 1st stage I incorporate all the ingredients & hold back 20% of the water.  When the dough reaches moderate gluten development I add the remaining formula water until it comes together as a single mass.  I do a 30 minute riposo followed by series of rigeneri every 15 minutes for the next 2 hours or so.

Matt

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 05, 2011, 08:39:41 AM
Norma I do a double hydration using my spiral mixer.  In the 1st stage I incorporate all the ingredients & hold back 20% of the water.  When the dough reaches moderate gluten development I add the remaining formula water until it comes together as a single mass.  I do a 30 minute riposo followed by series of rigeneri every 15 minutes for the next 2 hours or so.

Matt


Matt,

Thanks for sharing your techniques.  :)  Although I donít have a special mixer like you do, I am trying to get about the same results.  Donít even know if my mixer is capable of producing the same results, but I will try.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 05, 2011, 08:55:21 AM
Matt,

Thanks for sharing your techniques.  :)  Although I donít have a special mixer like you do, I am trying to get about the same results.  Donít even know if my mixer is capable of producing the same results, but I will try.

Norma

Norma,
Try this http://www.breadcetera.com/?p=162
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 05, 2011, 09:07:33 AM
Norma,
Try this http://www.breadcetera.com/?p=162


Matt,

Thanks for your help with being able to try this with my stand mixer.  I will see how it goes.  I still need to learn a lot of all of the methods and techniques used for this type of pizza.

I appreciated the link.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on February 05, 2011, 12:36:07 PM
I have looked at pictures under Google images of Pizzarium slices and different pictures have a different crumb look.  I wonder why the crumb would look different on different slices.

I've noticed this too. I suppose that in a busy, commercial setting, not every dough can be nursed and massaged to perfection, or with perfect consistency, under pressure to get them in and out of the oven ASAP. Also, I think chance factors that are impossible, or at least very difficult, to predict and control play a big role in this type of pizza in any case.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: doughboy55 on February 05, 2011, 04:37:24 PM
How does everyone store their organic flour? I read somewhere that it should be stored in the fridge or should i just store it at room temp like any other flour?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on February 05, 2011, 08:03:45 PM
Depends on how fast you go through it, but other things being equal preferably in the fridge or freezer (bring it up to room temp before using).

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 06, 2011, 02:05:01 PM
Below are two experiments:

1. 50% 365 Organic AP, 25% KABF, and 25% Ultimate Performer
2. 75% KABF and 25% Ultimate performer

The results were nearly identical - a very open, light, soft crumb with a crispy bottom and exterior. The 365 AP is also malted, like the KABF. The cool thing about this attempt is that I cooked the pies this morning, and I will be topping, reheating, and serving this evening. A true "Pizzarium" approach to see if the dough formulation works as it is truly intended. The formulation/workflow is the same as my previous attempt, except the yeast is at .7%. I will post pics of the final product tonight.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jackie Tran on February 06, 2011, 02:24:22 PM
John, you've done it! I love it! Awesome!
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 06, 2011, 02:46:54 PM
Below are two experiments:

1. 50% 365 Organic AP, 25% KABF, and 25% Ultimate Performer
2. 75% KABF and 25% Ultimate performer

The results were nearly identical - a very open, light, soft crumb with a crispy bottom and exterior. The 365 AP is also malted, like the KABF. The cool thing about this attempt is that I cooked the pies this morning, and I will be topping, reheating, and serving this evening. A true "Pizzarium" approach to see if the dough formulation works as it is truly intended. The formulation/workflow is the same as my previous attempt, except the yeast is at .7%. I will post pics of the final product tonight.

John

John,

I agree you have achieved what you were trying to achieve. Awesome and Great job.  ;D  Do you believe the workflow of this kind of dough has to do with more of the how you handle the dough than the flours that are used or do you think you need the right combination of flours and workflow to achieve the kind of results you got? I can see how strong your dough looks. 

I will be waiting to see you final pies.  Seems like you found the right combination to try.  Thanks for your experiments.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 06, 2011, 03:14:08 PM
John,

I agree you have achieved what you were trying to achieve. Awesome and Great job.  ;D  Do you believe the workflow of this kind of dough has to do with more of the how you handle the dough than the flours that are used or do you think you need the right combination of flours and workflow to achieve the kind of results you got? I can see how strong your dough looks. 

I will be waiting to see you final pies.  Seems like you found the right combination to try.  Thanks for your experiments.  :)

Norma

Thanks Chau and Norma!

Norma - I really don't quite yet know. I think you need the help of a high gluten flour in some percentage. And my last 3 attempts have all been basically the same workflow - using tartine style turns over 2-3 hours, 48 hour cold ferment. The first try, using mostly high gluten, was not good at all crumb-wise. The last two, using a combination of weaker flour and some HG, still using the same workflow, yielded very good results. I think we can all get our crumb to LOOK like Pizzarium, but unless Gabrielle himself tastes our dough himself as says, "yes, it looks good but the crumb is not soft enough," or "the taste is not as rich as mine," etc. then we can only go on what works best for us. I think my crumb is very soft - but who knows if it even remotely compares to the master. And he obviously uses superior flour that is freshly milled.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 06, 2011, 03:48:15 PM
Thanks Chau and Norma!

Norma - I really don't quite yet know. I think you need the help of a high gluten flour in some percentage. And my last 3 attempts have all been basically the same workflow - using tartine style turns over 2-3 hours, 48 hour cold ferment. The first try, using mostly high gluten, was not good at all crumb-wise. The last two, using a combination of weaker flour and some HG, still using the same workflow, yielded very good results. I think we can all get our crumb to LOOK like Pizzarium, but unless Gabrielle himself tastes our dough himself as says, "yes, it looks good but the crumb is not soft enough," or "the taste is not as rich as mine," etc. then we can only go on what works best for us. I think my crumb is very soft - but who knows if it even remotely compares to the master. And he obviously uses superior flour that is freshly milled.

John

John,

Thanks for explaining how you think you got such good results, even using different flours.  :) I also think this kind of dough is something like the Tartine Bread dough, from the experiments I did.  I havenít come up with a workable combination of flours, but think at some point most members will be able to able to make this style of pizza, if they understand working with high hydration dough and the workflow.

I will be anxious to see your pies. Wish I was there to taste some.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on February 06, 2011, 05:16:16 PM
Really nice John, hope they reheat well.

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on February 06, 2011, 05:36:08 PM
My own effort for today was a washout. I knew something was wrong when, during the course of forming it, I noticed that the dough seemed oddly stiff even though it had good extensibility. Baked at 450 for 19 minutes, the finished pie had a so-so crumb, a hard and crunchy bottom and cornicone (notwithstanding over 4% oil in the dough), and an unappealing, cardboardy flavour. Worst pizza in teglia ever- right down to the sauce, which tasted like ketchup >:(.

Oh well- looking forward to next week's...

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 06, 2011, 06:13:58 PM
Jose - I know that frustration. But your crumb look really good, though.

So the bottoms got a little too crunchy for my tastes, and the pie with 75% KABF lost a little of it's tenderness in the crumb upon reheating. I need to adjust the temp and time next time, and I think I can get it better. On reheat only, the one with 50% AP really stood out as superior. Truth be told I would rather cook them all at one time, even though it gave me extra time with my guests.

On to the game.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 06, 2011, 08:41:49 PM
Jose,

I also think your crumb looks good.

Norma

John,

Itís interesting that you found your formula with 50% AP stood out as superior.  Your pies look great to me.  I wonder how a real Pizzarium crust looks on the bottom crust.  Did you ever see pictures of the bottom crust and I also wonder just how crisp this kind of crust is supposed to be?
I didnít ever bake until the bottom was crispy. Did your crumb dry out at all in the reheat?  I need to also do another experiment.

What did your guests think of this style of pizza?

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on February 06, 2011, 11:06:35 PM
Would it be reasonable to conclude that these doughs should be fully topped at the outset if they're going to be reheated (w/adjustments to the baking time in case of concerns about toppings burning etc.) ?

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on February 06, 2011, 11:26:05 PM
With respect to my own experiment, I'll tentatively conclude that:

-If the dough is to be 100% hand-mixed, have at hand a smooth surface covered with oil, and also a dough scrapper; specifically, don't just let the dough get trapped between your hands and do stretch-and-folds until it can be peeled off.  More generally, don't just do stretch-and-folds at will, as it is an extremely powerful technique and can lead to insidious over-development if abused.

-Use a percentage of strong/hi-gluten flour in your mix (cf. John's remarks above).

-If pizza in teglia is to cross the ocean and establish itself in the New World, it will have to be adapted to local flours, and possibly turn into something altogether different, in the same way that the Neapolitan style mutated into the NY style one hundred years ago.

Thoughts?

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 07, 2011, 06:54:36 AM
Good points to consider. My crumb did dry out a bit in the reheat, especially the bianco ones, which were not topped with sauce on the initial bake. The bottoms were crunchy - definitely not what Pizzarium pizza should be IMHO but I could be corrected. One other factor in here is the steel pans I have been working with. They are EXTREMELY sensitive to heat. Very efficient pans, but need some attention during the bake - I needed to lower from 500 down to 475 to prevent burning. And they may have contributed to the crunchy bottom on the reheat. I wonder how Pizzarium reheats?

And I like Jose's idea that on a reheat scenario, the toppings are on from the outset. And if I had baked these as normal, I think they would have come out the best yet. I think I may go with 50% 365 Organic AP (which is actually Central Milling Beehive), and 50% Ultimate Performer next weekend.

Oh, and lastly I realized that to get the perfect crumb, you are only as good as your dough to pan technique.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 07, 2011, 07:36:02 AM
John and Jose,

You both made good points in your posts. In my best attempt, I also had placed most of the toppings on before the bake. I found while reheating those slices the bottom didnít get as crisp at market or in my home oven.  I donít know what that means though.  There are too many variables in my different attempts.  I made another attempt dough last evening and so far the dough is very sticky.  I need to work with it today.  The blend of flours I used are Durum 30%, Better for Bread 60%, and Caputo Blue Bag 10%. 


These are some pictures on flickr, when I typed in Pizzarium. In my opinion there are many different crumbs on Pizzarium slices.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/staximo/406611766/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5393117212/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bsmif/3936879250/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5298757175/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5298756241/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5299358518/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5299356940/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5299358044/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5299357196/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/seouleats/3973813604/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/paolettas/2962024406/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5368117556/

When I typed in Bonci on flickr this is one of the pictures that came up.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5391238491/

On this blog, this person had taken a pizza class with Gabriele Bonci

http://www.parlafood.com/le-mani-in-pasta-with-gabriele-bonci/

The above blog, took me to this blog about

http://www.kittyskitchen.it/la-pizza-secondo-gabriele-bonci.html 

One thing in the above blog that it says you can get the dough hydration to 100%.

Another article, with Bonci replying in the right column.

http://www.scattidigusto.it/2011/01/22/la-pizza-in-urbana-di-gabriele-bonci-il-partito-du-pilu-gozzovigli-da-tricolore-monti-a-roma/

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 07, 2011, 08:43:32 AM
These are two pictures of how my next attempt dough looks this morning.  As can be seen on these two pictures the dough is way to sticky and has not formed enough gluten yet to be made into a pizza, but it has some strength.  Hopefully I will be able to form more gluten in this dough with turns, stretches and folds.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: doughboy55 on February 07, 2011, 01:35:44 PM
What are your thoughts for ricotta cheese, should i top the pizza with ricotta after the par bake, or during it like with the tomatoes?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: doughboy55 on February 08, 2011, 10:08:51 AM
Here are a few pictures of my first teglia pizza....
After this experience i learned a lot of things.... handling this dough takes skill so when i see Gabrielle handle the dough like a champ it makes me jealous the first pie i made came out uneven and some spots were thicker than others but my second pie came out pretty good.
Be gentle with the dough almost like you are making love to it lol


http://s1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc504/blizzgeek22/teglia%20pizza/

EDIT- I almost forgot to mention how it tasted, the crust was the best i ever tasted hands down and i just need to make some adjustment with the toppings and it will be great.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 08, 2011, 10:37:21 AM
Excellent job! You nailed the crumb right off the bat. What temperature did you cook it at, and for how long?

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: doughboy55 on February 08, 2011, 10:44:16 AM
I cooked it at 475 for 10-12 minutes then took it out topped it and then another 8-10. My oven screwed me up on the first pie i preheated to 475 and then half way through it shot down to 350 without no cause, so i started topping the pizza in anticipation for it coming out and it took about 15 minutes longer than i expected. My new lesson is don't top until its absolutely ready to go into the oven and dont use ricotta cheese until after par bake. I completely forgot about the cheese because my grandmother makes that pizza quite a lot and she doesn't par bake it but now i know better. But she does parbake the other but i found its too difficult to spread without pressing the dough to much.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on February 08, 2011, 01:26:55 PM
Bang-up job Doughboy, could you also share your formula, mix time, etc.?

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 08, 2011, 08:32:54 PM
Here are a few pictures of my first teglia pizza....
After this experience i learned a lot of things.... handling this dough takes skill so when i see Gabrielle handle the dough like a champ it makes me jealous the first pie i made came out uneven and some spots were thicker than others but my second pie came out pretty good.
Be gentle with the dough almost like you are making love to it lol


http://s1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc504/blizzgeek22/teglia%20pizza/

EDIT- I almost forgot to mention how it tasted, the crust was the best i ever tasted hands down and i just need to make some adjustment with the toppings and it will be great.

doughboy55,

Your crumb look great!  :) Nice job on your first try.  I would also be interested in hearing what kind of flour you used and what method you used to mix your dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 08, 2011, 08:37:31 PM
The dough I had mixed on Sunday needed a lot of work to be able to get it to be useable.  I worked with the dough a lot yesterday and today, by giving it stretches and folds.  I never thought it would develop, but it did.  The dough wanted to become lax again and again.  When I got to market today, I thought I had taken my steel deep-dish pan to market on Friday, but I must have forgot.  I then had to decide today what kind of pan to use.  Since I had used the formula for my 18" steel deep-dish pan and didnít have any other pan that big at market, I decided to cut the dough and do two bakes.  The first bake I opened the dough and put it on the deck.  If anyone wants me to post the pictures of that bake I will, but that bake didnít go as well as the second bake.  I had a pan at market, that I hadnít liked before and never used it after a couple of times trying it.  It isnít steel and I never liked how it baked.  I didnít have any way to decide how much dough to use for the TF, so I just guessed.  The second bake did go well and the crumb did get light and airy after the bake.  I never would have thought the second bake would go so well.  I also think the way this dough is handled has a lot to do with how the finished crumb turns out. 

Second bake pictures.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 08, 2011, 08:40:39 PM
rest of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 08, 2011, 09:23:07 PM
Norma - I think you are now the reigning Pizzarium champion. What an incredible bake!

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 08, 2011, 09:38:18 PM
Norma - I think you are now the reigning Pizzarium champion. What an incredible bake!

John

John,

Thanks, I was surprised how well this bake went.  I never would have thought the pan I used would have given me a decent bake. I donít know about this light airy crumb, but I did use 4% dairy whey in the formula.  I donít know if that is what gave this recent attempt a better crumb or what happened.  I am still trying to figure out why this attempt was better.  This dough was really light and airy as can be seen in the pan with the olive oil on before the bake. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: jeff v on February 08, 2011, 09:55:55 PM
Norma-wow. I've only been casually following this thread, but your most recent attempt looks fantastic. Are you using the same recipe and protocol you mentioned a couple pages back?

Thanks,
Jeff
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: parallei on February 08, 2011, 10:01:52 PM
Primo Norma!

This may be heretical or something......  However, after looking over all the photos of the "real Pizzarium" slices that Norma linked us to, I'd have to say that some folks on Pizzamaking.com are producing a better "product" than one would expect to find in Rome >:D  I'm serious.  Good work all.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 08, 2011, 10:29:31 PM
Norma-wow. I've only been casually following this thread, but your most recent attempt looks fantastic. Are you using the same recipe and protocol you mentioned a couple pages back?

Thanks,
Jeff

Jeff,

Thanks, this was my best attempt so far.  I have no idea now what TF I used today, because I just divided the dough and didnít weight it.  This dough was the hardest dough I have ever worked with.  It was so sticky, I thought it would never become a decent dough to use.  I had even mixed it on my Kitchen Aid Mixer over 45 minutes (with some rests) and it still was very sticky.  I even had my mixer on speed 10 for many times, but didnít keep it there.  I did use Matt's posts to use the double hydration in this dough. I used many stretch and folds over 2 days.  The dough just kept becoming puffier and more airy today. 

This is what I used in the formula.

Durum flour 30%
Better for Bread flour 60%
Caputo Blue Bag 10%
Dairy Whey 4% of the formula flour
Water 87%
Salt 2%
Olive Oil 3.5%
Old preferment Lehmann dough poolish 100 grams
Cake Yeast 1 gram

If you have any other questions, just ask.  I can give a more detailed reply of all what I did with the dough if anyone wants to know.  In my opinion this dough is hard to understand.  I donít even know if I can get a similar bake again.  My first bake today didnít go as well and it was even the same dough. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 08, 2011, 10:45:14 PM

parallei,

Thanks, I also think the members here on the forum are doing a great job of trying this different kind of pizza.

This was my first attempt today with the same dough divided that I baked on the deck.  As can be seen, although this dough was light and the crumb did get some open crumb structure,  the bake went a lot different.  Both of my bakes were around an hour apart.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 09, 2011, 05:20:06 AM
Great job Norma!

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 09, 2011, 06:48:35 AM
Great job Norma!

Matt

Matt,

Thanks, your suggestion for a double hydration, in combination with everything learned on this thread from other members, has helped me to understand this type of dough, but I still am not sure if I can repeat what I did.  In my opinion the biggest challenge is to get the gluten formed properly and then keep the bubbles formed in the dough when opening the dough.  Even while opening the same dough for my first bake, I could feel that dough didnít have the bubbles in the opened dough as the second dough.  I should have taken a picture of the first dough when it was opened, but I didnít have much hope for that dough.  I used olive oil on top of both of my doughs before adding the tomato sauce.  Does anyone else use olive oil before the bake?

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: doughboy55 on February 09, 2011, 08:57:07 AM
doughboy55,

Your crumb look great!  :) Nice job on your first try.  I would also be interested in hearing what kind of flour you used and what method you used to mix your dough.

Norma
I used King Arthur AP flour and King Arthur High Gluten Flour. 75% AP 25% HG, I use the same protocol as John, I used a stand mixer as well. But your recent pizza came out great some of the best pizza's i ever seen created (really!). All the pictures in this thread give me something to strive towards.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 09, 2011, 09:53:13 AM
I used King Arthur AP flour and King Arthur High Gluten Flour. 75% AP 25% HG, I use the same protocol as John, I used a stand mixer as well. But your recent pizza came out great some of the best pizza's i ever seen created (really!). All the pictures in this thread give me something to strive towards.

doughboy55,


From the get-go you have produced a great crumb.  :) For some of us trying to make a Pizzarium style, that has taken a long while.  Do you mind telling what hydration you used and did you have any problems forming the gluten?  I wonder since you posted what flours you did used and how you followed Johnís protocol, if this dough isnít almost like Ciabatta bread, where the hole structure is large and the hydration levels are high, except oil is added in high amounts.  Ciabatta also has an irregular crumb structure and also stretch and folds are needed to create the added crumb structure.  I donít know, but would think if using the right combinations of flours, hydration, ferment time, and stretch and folds, this style of crumb could be easier to achieve than my last attempt. Since Gabriele Bonci is a baker also, I am sure he understands better than me how to create his light open crumb on his pizzas.  I am not a good baker and am just learning to bake breads.
           
A quote from another website about how bakers can define what is a good bread.
Crumb is a term that bakers use to define the inside of the bread. By looking at the way the cell structure of the crumb is formed, and the shape and size and color of the cells, a baker can analyze the hydration, flour types, and yeast amounts as well as how the dough was mixed and shaped. By looking at the shape and crust a baker can see how the bread was baked, flour types, fermentation balance, and moulding techniques.

Does anyone else trying to make this kind of pizza or more experienced in making bread have the same thoughts?

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: doughboy55 on February 09, 2011, 10:28:48 AM
doughboy55,


From the get-go you have produced a great crumb.  :) For some of us trying to make a Pizzarium style, that has taken a long while.  Do you mind telling what hydration you used and did you have any problems forming the gluten?  I wonder since you posted what flours you did used and how you followed Johnís protocol, if this dough isnít almost like Ciabatta bread, where the hole structure is large and the hydration levels are high, except oil is added in high amounts.  Ciabatta also has an irregular crumb structure and also stretch and folds are needed to create the added crumb structure.  I donít know, but would think if using the right combinations of flours, hydration, ferment time, and stretch and folds, this style of crumb could be easier to achieve than my last attempt. Since Gabriele Bonci is a baker also, I am sure he understands better than me how to create his light open crumb on his pizzas.  I am not a good baker and am just learning to bake breads.
           
A quote from another website about how bakers can define what is a good bread.
Crumb is a term that bakers use to define the inside of the bread. By looking at the way the cell structure of the crumb is formed, and the shape and size and color of the cells, a baker can analyze the hydration, flour types, and yeast amounts as well as how the dough was mixed and shaped. By looking at the shape and crust a baker can see how the bread was baked, flour types, fermentation balance, and moulding techniques.

Does anyone else trying to make this kind of pizza or more experienced in making bread have the same thoughts?

Norma
I am pretty new at baking myself and making pizza's but i used 80% hydration and at first i added the yeast, oil,  flour and 80% of water and mixed. Let it sit for 20 minutes, then added salt and 20% of the water and squeezed it together until all the water was absorbed. Then i put the mixer on medium speed for 30 seconds and then let it sit for 20 min then do this again 6 times (2 hours). After putting it in the fridge for 24 hours the dough rose all the way to the top of the bowl and i had to resort to punching it down. Now i know to use a bigger a bowl and a tad less yeast. I did only a little bit of stretch and folding when i let the dough proof at room temp for 3 hours, but at the time i didn't no i was.

I have a question for you, before baking your pizza you said you stretch and folded for a while but it took a while because it became to relaxed i personally did it a couple of times and it became really relaxed as well how important is to make the dough more "uniform" and not so relaxed what does that actually do. What do you mean by forming the gluten, are you talking about the cold fermentation and how the dough rises im very new at this. Should i also be doing stretch and fold before the bake when i let the dough proof and before i put the dough away in the fridge? What is the actual purpose of the stretch and fold technique?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 09, 2011, 10:42:31 AM
I am pretty new at baking myself and making pizza's but i used 80% hydration and at first i added the yeast, oil,  flour and 80% of water and mixed. Let it sit for 20 minutes, then added salt and 20% of the water and squeezed it together until all the water was absorbed. Then i put the mixer on medium speed for 30 seconds and then let it sit for 20 min then do this again 6 times (2 hours). After putting it in the fridge for 24 hours the dough rose all the way to the top of the bowl and i had to resort to punching it down. Now i know to use a bigger a bowl and a tad less yeast. I did only a little bit of stretch and folding when i let the dough proof at room temp for 3 hours, but at the time i didn't no i was.

I have a question for you, before baking your pizza you said you stretch and folded for a while but it took a while because it became to relaxed i personally did it a couple of times and it became really relaxed as well how important is to make the dough more "uniform" and not so relaxed what does that actually do. What do you mean by forming the gluten, are you talking about the cold fermentation and how the dough rises im very new at this. Should i also be doing stretch and fold before the bake when i let the dough proof and before i put the dough away in the fridge? What is the actual purpose of the stretch and fold technique?

Regarding the stretch and folds, when I gave you my regimen for this dough, I had you use the mixer as your "stretch and fold" since you had never worked with this type of hydrated dough. If you want to do stretch and folds by hand, just replace them for the mixer regenerations in the instructions I gave you offline. You do not have to use a mixer for this type of dough at all. And the reason Norma took a good amount time with her folding, is that she saw how the dough was developing with the flours she used and made adjustments as needed. That comes from alot of experience.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 09, 2011, 10:46:11 AM
Norma - What was your percentage of yeast on this bake? I saw 1 gram of CY and 100 grams preferment.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 09, 2011, 11:08:17 AM
I am pretty new at baking myself and making pizza's but i used 80% hydration and at first i added the yeast, oil,  flour and 80% of water and mixed. Let it sit for 20 minutes, then added salt and 20% of the water and squeezed it together until all the water was absorbed. Then i put the mixer on medium speed for 30 seconds and then let it sit for 20 min then do this again 6 times (2 hours). After putting it in the fridge for 24 hours the dough rose all the way to the top of the bowl and i had to resort to punching it down. Now i know to use a bigger a bowl and a tad less yeast. I did only a little bit of stretch and folding when i let the dough proof at room temp for 3 hours, but at the time i didn't no i was.

I have a question for you, before baking your pizza you said you stretch and folded for a while but it took a while because it became to relaxed i personally did it a couple of times and it became really relaxed as well how important is to make the dough more "uniform" and not so relaxed what does that actually do. What do you mean by forming the gluten, are you talking about the cold fermentation and how the dough rises im very new at this. Should i also be doing stretch and fold before the bake when i let the dough proof and before i put the dough away in the fridge? What is the actual purpose of the stretch and fold technique?

doughboy55,

Thanks for explaining your methods for mixing your dough.  I really donít know, but since members have been using different mixing methods and they all seem to work, I caní be sure which is the best method and work flow to use with this type of dough. 

I am just beginning to understand high hydration doughs better.  I am not sure if I had used different mixing methods, (maybe double hydration, double flour addition) if I also could have gotten better results in my mixing and not taking the dough so long to be able to form the gluten, or if my flours also gave me trouble with forming the gluten.  Gluten forming to me can mean many things and ways to go about helping a dough to develop better gluten (or strands that form from the flours and combinations of ingredients in different ways).   To me gluten can be formed either using a combination of a long cold ferment, combination of bulk ferments and cold ferments or many other ways.(like incorporating stretch and folds.)  Stretch and folds to me can mean folding the dough like an envelope (or other ways) and placing the dough onto itself in other ways other than stretch and folds.  It also can mean to me, just taking the dough in a container and picking up the dough by the edges and folding it on to the inner dough.    It is complicated for me to be able to try and explain all this, because I am also learning how different doughs can behave. Maybe someone else that does understand this better than I can, (and can explain it better than I can) will chime in. 

I did many stretch and folds in different ways to this dough to be able to form the gluten.  Yesterday (while at market), I did 3 stretch and folds on that dough.  Each time I could see more bubbles forming in the dough.  I had to pop some when trying to close the bottom of the dough.   The dough sat at ambient room temperature at market until the middle of the afternoon, when I did the two bakes.  I donít think a dough should be stretch and folded or reballed at least an hour and a half before the bake (but I could be wrong), because then the gluten structure would become to scattered again. I had even taken this dough out of the refrigerator different times on Monday and either did stretch and folds, or either let the dough fall back onto itself.  I would have also thought the yeast in this dough would have almost died, but it didnít.  It is even complicated for me to be understand this all, because I am also still learning.

I donít know if this link can help you better understand what forming gluten is or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluten

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 09, 2011, 11:39:54 AM
Norma - What was your percentage of yeast on this bake? I saw 1 gram of CY and 100 grams preferment.

John,

It gets complicated in explaining about the poolish I used.  :-D  I had read where you posted before about adding poolish from the recipe in 2003 at Reply http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg124760.html#msg124760 and I decided to add some of my old poolish that I had posted about at Reply 768 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg125842.html#msg125842 That poolish had really almost fallen to nothing and only had a few bubbles in the poolish, but the poolish still felt very strong. (it almost felt like this dough, when it is strong enough)  That is why I decided to add the poolish.  I would think, but donít know that a regular poolish would do the same job, but I donít know.  What are your opinions on the poolish I used?  I did add 1 gram of Cake Yeast.  I am not sure what amount of yeast would have been left in the poolish.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: doughboy55 on February 09, 2011, 12:45:03 PM
doughboy55,

Thanks for explaining your methods for mixing your dough.  I really donít know, but since members have been using different mixing methods and they all seem to work, I caní be sure which is the best method and work flow to use with this type of dough. 

I am just beginning to understand high hydration doughs better.  I am not sure if I had used different mixing methods, (maybe double hydration, double flour addition) if I also could have gotten better results in my mixing and not taking the dough so long to be able to form the gluten, or if my flours also gave me trouble with forming the gluten.  Gluten forming to me can mean many things and ways to go about helping a dough to develop better gluten (or strands that form from the flours and combinations of ingredients in different ways).   To me gluten can be formed either using a combination of a long cold ferment, combination of bulk ferments and cold ferments or many other ways.(like incorporating stretch and folds.)  Stretch and folds to me can mean folding the dough like an envelope (or other ways) and placing the dough onto itself in other ways other than stretch and folds.  It also can mean to me, just taking the dough in a container and picking up the dough by the edges and folding it on to the inner dough.    It is complicated for me to be able to try and explain all this, because I am also learning how different doughs can behave. Maybe someone else that does understand this better than I can, (and can explain it better than I can) will chime in. 

I did many stretch and folds in different ways to this dough to be able to form the gluten.  Yesterday (while at market), I did 3 stretch and folds on that dough.  Each time I could see more bubbles forming in the dough.  I had to pop some when trying to close the bottom of the dough.   The dough sat at ambient room temperature at market until the middle of the afternoon, when I did the two bakes.  I donít think a dough should be stretch and folded or reballed at least an hour and a half before the bake (but I could be wrong), because then the gluten structure would become to scattered again. I had even taken this dough out of the refrigerator different times on Monday and either did stretch and folds, or either let the dough fall back onto itself.  I would have also thought the yeast in this dough would have almost died, but it didnít.  It is even complicated for me to be understand this all, because I am also still learning.

I donít know if this link can help you better understand what forming gluten is or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluten

Norma
Thanks for explaining this to me it helped a ton, would you recommend doing some stretch and folds right after you take the dough out of the fridge and let it proof at room temp before you bake?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 09, 2011, 05:58:00 PM
Thanks for explaining this to me it helped a ton, would you recommend doing some stretch and folds right after you take the dough out of the fridge and let it proof at room temp before you bake?

doughboy55,

It would be hard for me to explain when to do the strength and folds or even reballs, unless I could watch the process of how your dough looked from the time it left the mixer until it would be ready to be left proof at room temperature before the bake.  (I really didnít know if I went though the right process)

All I can explain is what I did to make the dough before I did the bake.  First I only mixed part of the water (with the poolish and cake yeast) and most of the flour in the mixer. (without any oil or salt)   I kept mixing at different speeds (up to speed 10 at some points) on my Kitchen Aid mixer (mostly speed two or three) for about 20 minutes, (giving the dough some rests to absorb the flour).   Then I added the rest of the water and slowly incorporated the rest of the flour on different speeds again.  I then gave the dough an autolyse (which is a rest period, developed by Raymond Calvel, a baker) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Calvel  of about 20-25 minutes before adding the salt.  When the salt was added I could see the gluten tightening up more, but the dough still was somewhat slack.  After the salt was incorporated the oil was added and mixed until the dough looked like all the oil was incorporated.  I had left the dough at room temperature for a few hours on Sunday and did stretch and folds with wet hands, before placing the dough into the refrigerator until Monday morning.  I then took the dough out at various time and did the stretch and folds on the refrigerated dough.  In the evening on Monday, I took the dough out of the bowl and dusted the kitchen table with flour and did more stretch and folds. (or taking the end of the dough and folding it on itself, turning the dough and folding more until the dough looked tight) I place the dough into the refrigerator until Monday when I took it to market and did the process over again 3 more times.  (with flour on my work bench).  I didnít want to get anymore flour incorporated than I needed to, but I did use enough flour, so the dough wouldnít stick to the bench.  I could then see the dough was starting to form bubbles inside the dough ball.  It has formed some bubbles inside the dough ball the day before (but the dough became slack again after awhile)

If you are interested in looking at the link Matt referenced before, you can see what that person did with his dough, while doing a double hydration.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg125843.html#msg125843
http://www.breadcetera.com/?p=162 

That is basically what I did with this dough, but my dough didnít want to become bubbly or form enough for a long while.  I let the dough room temperature proof with the three stretch and folds about 6 hrs. on Tuesday. (this could depend on how much yeast there is in the dough, at least I would think, but donít know)

My dough didnít look like what John had posted the picture of his dough at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg125999.html#msg125999 I donít know why (it could have been my dough wasnít ready enough, but my dough finally did get strength though the stretch and folds).  When I try this dough again, I will try to take more pictures if anyone is interested.  There has to be an easier way to make this dough than what I did.

I hope I didnít confuse you any more.  If you or anyone else has any other questions, just ask.  It is hard to be able to explain this over a keyboard. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 09, 2011, 11:13:38 PM

From Pizzarium Facebook page, it took me to this link on youtube (this was under links in the Pizzarium Facebook page).  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVWJpE9QBlk

This is the translation from Google from Italian to English translation of a commentor on the video.

this is my first student ciro my ............ my dream is abbbraccciarklo again soon grazieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee cirooooooooo chiamameeeeeeeeeeeeee chiamaaaaa I love you and congratulations hello Gabriele Bonci

Does anyone know if Gabriele Bonci taught this man to make pizza in teglia?  Did anyone do any research on this man in the video?

I find it interesting how easy the pizza in telgia is to cut and also the kind of baking pan this man uses.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on February 09, 2011, 11:53:36 PM
Does anyone know if Gabriele Bonci taught this man to make pizza in teglia?  Did anyone do any research on this man in the video?

I find it interesting how easy the pizza in telgia is to cut and also the kind of baking pan this man uses.

Norma

That guy operates out of Seoul, Korea. I notice there's a picture of him with Gabriele on the wall, but have no idea as to what sort of professional connection exists between the two. He obviously knows what he's doing in any case- but your pies look much better than his...

JLP
Title: 00100
Post by: foolishpoolish on February 10, 2011, 08:46:10 AM
Katie Parla of http://www.parlafood.com and who recently blogged about Gabriele Bonci and Pizzarium writes about another Pizza al Taglio joint in Rome called 00100:
http://www.parlafood.com/00100-testaccio/
http://www.parlafood.com/rome-pizza-stefano-callegari-gabriele-bonci/

The official 00100 website offers a few more details about their pizza (including that their dough is made from 00 flour from soft wheat and leavened with a Starter Culture from Gabriele Bonci as well as 0.2% yeast):

http://00100pizza.com

Here's another blogger who visited 00100:
http://senzapanna.blogspot.com/2008/06/00100-pizza.html

And here's a youtube video/interview which has a few shots of the dough being shaped for their delicious looking "Trapizzini" (stuffed sandwiches made from their pizza bianca dough):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Drhao0BHtk
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 10, 2011, 10:43:14 AM
Interview with Bonci and some footage of the dough being made:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Xj1nhoJv5U&NR=1

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 10, 2011, 11:08:42 AM
Interview with Bonci and some footage of the dough being made:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Xj1nhoJv5U&NR=1

John

John,

Thanks for posting that video.  :)  How do you think Gabriele gets the dough so strengthened in the mixer, without fermenting it more? Gabriele dough when it is placed on the bench looked like my dough, but how can I get it to look that way without all the steps I took.  Do you have any ideas?  I canít understand Italian.  Do you know what Gabriele was saying? 

This is Gabriele Bonciís blog, although it doesnít tell anything about his pizza in teglia, I think it is interesting how interested he is in food.

http://adessomidiverto.blogspot.com/

From another blogger, it sounds Gabriele use barley malt in his dough.  Does anyone else think he does?

http://italianlinguini.blogspot.com/2010/10/4-hours-pizzarium.html

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 10, 2011, 11:16:54 AM
Toby - Some really great resources your posted. It is interesting how "thin" Bonci pies look compared to 00100.

Norma - I am not sure at all what stage that dough in the mixer is. It could be close to finished, as Bonci may room temp rise due to the starter-based formula.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: foolishpoolish on February 10, 2011, 11:27:41 AM
Nice video of Bonci, thanks John.
I agree, the 00100 pizza does look a bit thicker and the crumb perhaps a little less open than at least some of the Pizzarium photos. I imagine they're still both texturally very light.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 10, 2011, 12:59:18 PM
So, Toby - When are you going to cough up your formula/workflow in detail?  ;)

John
Title: Re: 00100
Post by: Matthew on February 10, 2011, 01:14:21 PM
Katie Parla of http://www.parlafood.com and who recently blogged about Gabriele Bonci and Pizzarium writes about another Pizza al Taglio joint in Rome called 00100:
http://www.parlafood.com/00100-testaccio/
http://www.parlafood.com/rome-pizza-stefano-callegari-gabriele-bonci/

The official 00100 website offers a few more details about their pizza (including that their dough is made from 00 flour from soft wheat and leavened with a Starter Culture from Gabriele Bonci as well as 0.2% yeast):

http://00100pizza.com

Here's another blogger who visited 00100:
http://senzapanna.blogspot.com/2008/06/00100-pizza.html

And here's a youtube video/interview which has a few shots of the dough being shaped for their delicious looking "Trapizzini" (stuffed sandwiches made from their pizza bianca dough):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Drhao0BHtk

Toby,
Thanks for the great links, the Trapizzini look crazy good.  He does do things slightly different than Gabriele; lower hydration, a combination of starter & IDY, & a 30 minute pan proof prior to baking.  His bake time on the trapizzini is 10 minutes, so he's working with a pretty hot oven.  He doesn't mention the use any oil in his formula either.  

For all interested I translated the formula:

He uses 2kg of dough/teglia.

All amounts are based on 1L of water.
1L water
1.3kg 00 flour
2% salt
5% starter
1-2g of IDY

The dough is fermented for 24 hours.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 10, 2011, 04:11:33 PM
John,

Thanks for posting that video.  :)  How do you think Gabriele gets the dough so strengthened in the mixer, without fermenting it more? Gabriele dough when it is placed on the bench looked like my dough, but how can I get it to look that way without all the steps I took.  Do you have any ideas?  I canít understand Italian.  Do you know what Gabriele was saying? 

This is Gabriele Bonciís blog, although it doesnít tell anything about his pizza in teglia, I think it is interesting how interested he is in food.

http://adessomidiverto.blogspot.com/

From another blogger, it sounds Gabriele use barley malt in his dough.  Does anyone else think he does?

http://italianlinguini.blogspot.com/2010/10/4-hours-pizzarium.html

Norma

Norma,
He has a 2 speed spiral mixer & does a double hydration.  My guess is 10 minutes on speed 1 & an additional 10 minutes on the 2nd speed.  I am also guessing that he does a series of regineri to help dry out the dough. 
The blogger is referring to a pizza that Gabriele made using 100% farro dough.  If you used a translator, farro likely translated to barley.  Farro is a popular italian grain & is closer to spelt than to barley.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 10, 2011, 06:01:53 PM
Norma,
He has a 2 speed spiral mixer & does a double hydration.  My guess is 10 minutes on speed 1 & an additional 10 minutes on the 2nd speed.  I am also guessing that he does a series of regineri to help dry out the dough. 
The blogger is referring to a pizza that Gabriele made using 100% farro dough.  If you used a translator, farro likely translated to barley.  Farro is a popular italian grain & is closer to spelt than to barley.

Matt

Matt,

Thanks for the help on what kind of mixing Gabriele might do and about the barley.  I also watched the videos on Pizzarium Facebook links, and couldnít understand them, but saw he talked about making different kinds of yeasts, how to make gluten-free pizza and other videos.  I only can wish I could understand Italian.  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: sherm1018 on February 11, 2011, 12:46:26 PM
Okay...

Norma regarding your suggestion I think this is the forum you were talking about?

As I told you I am new to PM forum..... but just as "crazy nuts" for pizza as it seems most here are  ;D

I will make my first attempt at a high-hydration dough this weekend and will share the outcome with everybody.  From what I have seen and read there's a LOT of pressure for a newbie.... but I've got to start sometime.

Hope everyone has a great weekend..... here in Austin it's finally going to thaw out this weekend.
Can't believe it, I moved from Chicago 10 years ago to escape the snow and cold and we've had both down here this week!!
Must be Global Warming

Bests,
Scott  aka "sherm"
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: doughboy55 on February 11, 2011, 01:09:09 PM

Must be Global Warming

Good luck, and i think you mean global FREEZING!
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 11, 2011, 01:40:47 PM
Okay...

Norma regarding your suggestion I think this is the forum you were talking about?

As I told you I am new to PM forum..... but just as "crazy nuts" for pizza as it seems most here are  ;D

I will make my first attempt at a high-hydration dough this weekend and will share the outcome with everybody.  From what I have seen and read there's a LOT of pressure for a newbie.... but I've got to start sometime.

Hope everyone has a great weekend..... here in Austin it's finally going to thaw out this weekend.
Can't believe it, I moved from Chicago 10 years ago to escape the snow and cold and we've had both down here this week!!
Must be Global Warming

Bests,
Scott  aka "sherm"

Scott,

Sorry, if you or anyone else read what I posted, but I am editing my post.  I was in a hurry to get to market to make my poolish and didnít get to answer you right.  I meant to post, did you ever make a high hydration dough before?  If you need any help maybe other members or I can help you.  Do you have a formula, special flour or flours you want to use, pans, or others things you want to try?

This is the thread I was telling you about. I know you did PM me about making this style of pizza, but I really donít understand all what goes into this type of pizza either.  I donít even know if I can repeat the same results again. 

Maybe you can learn with the rest of us that are interested in making this style of pizza.

Best of luck and if you need any help, just ask.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 12, 2011, 06:45:13 AM
For anyone interested, there is a short video at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10884.new.html#new showing the dough being mixed in my modified spiral mixer.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 12, 2011, 07:20:08 AM
The final dough.
(65% organic hard spring wheat, 25% semola rimacinata di grano duro, 10% Caputo Red)

Picture 1 after a 30 minute riposo
Picture 2 after a rigenero
Picture 3 ready for bed!
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 12, 2011, 07:32:44 AM
Matt,

I saw your video and your dough looks great!  :) I really like how your modified spiral mixer mixes the dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 12, 2011, 07:54:37 AM
Matt,

I saw your video and your dough looks great!  :) I really like how your modified spiral mixer mixes the dough.

Norma

Thanks Norma.  This dough was really nicely developed.  I took quite a few liberties with this batch.  In addition to EVOO, I added a little bit of "strutto" (lard) to the mix to see what it does to the texture, I also added a couple of tablespoons of starter & a little malt syrup. 

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: doughboy55 on February 12, 2011, 07:30:28 PM
I have a question for everyone, how long would you recommend for a cold ferment for this high hydration dough? Will 48 hours be to long or will it be fine? I am using 1%CY, the dough wouldn't over ferment will it?
Also If i wanted to make the dough so it will be ready in 24 hours what would you recommend I adjust the yeast too?
Bakers Percents are
flour:100%
water:80%
CY:1%
Salt:2.5%
oil:3%
total: 186.5%
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on February 12, 2011, 10:17:47 PM
I personally do 48 hours with .25% IDY and 2% salt. I have no experience with CY, but 1% of it with 2.5% salt doesn't sound excessive, and certainly not so for 24 hours.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 13, 2011, 09:04:51 AM
When searching for some other videos yesterday, I came across these two videos.  They arenít from Pizzarium, but I found the first video interesting in how light (in the crumb) this pizza on this persons Youtube video was.  In the video near the end it shows a slice on the scales and the slice only weighs 70 grams.  Can anyone translate what formula this person used?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87nfFNSx4N8

The second video show this same person making this type of pizza, but it doesnít look as light and airy.  Under the description, this it does give the formula for what he used.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfdM48x_oWw

Italian to English translation from my Google translator if it is right.

A beautiful red pizza made with the chariot (polish) and 6 hours for rising ... Genovese recipe naturally without mozzarella.

Ingredients:
400 grams of flour 00 (preferably Manitoba)
300 liters of water
if you do not have the cart you can use 5 g of yeast
10 grams of sea salt
200 g of peeled
extra virgin olive q / b
fresh basil q / b
Bake at 300 degrees on baking stone for the time necessary

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on February 13, 2011, 09:48:20 AM
For the first vid:

The biga: 15 gr. raisins soaked for 24 hours in 150 gr. water, risen for another 24 hours with 100 gr. 00 flour. [I have no idea what that's supposed to be about -JLP]

40 gr. biga, 400 gr. 00 flour, 10 gr. salt, 300 deciliters water. Let rise for 2 hours.

Pour onto lightly oiled pan and let rise for an hour at 25-30 c.

Spread with your fingertips to the edges of the pan without stretching or tearing the dough.

Rise a third time (1 hour) and top with red onions.

Bake at 230 c. for as long as necessary.

Less than 1 cm. thick.

Weight of a 15 x 10 cm. slice...70 gr.

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 13, 2011, 10:01:29 AM
For the first vid:

The biga: 15 gr. raisins soaked for 24 hours in 150 gr. water, risen for another 24 hours with 100 gr. 00 flour. [I have no idea what that's supposed to be about -JLP]

40 gr. biga, 400 gr. 00 flour, 10 gr. salt, 300 deciliters water. Let rise for 2 hours.

Pour onto lightly oiled pan and let rise for an hour at 25-30 c.

Spread with your fingertips to the edges of the pan without stretching or tearing the dough.

Rise a third time (1 hour) and top with red onions.

Bake at 230 c. for as long as necessary.

Less than 1 cm. thick.

Weight of a 15 x 10 cm. slice...70 gr.



Jose,

Thanks so much for doing the translation.   :)  It's interesting that formula didn't have any oil and looked so light.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on February 13, 2011, 10:39:36 AM
Norma,

You can get unbelievably light crusts by using a long pan rise, as that guy did, although it comes at the cost of the openness of the crumb. I've made many tomato pizzas where I went even further and did the entire rise in the pan, stretching the dough out periodically over the course of 4-6 hours or so. The end result was so light that I could eat an entire 13 x 9.5 inch pie by myself and feel hungry again within two hours. However, the crumb was like whitebread in structure and tasted/ate accordingly.

Would you (or anybody else) be able to explain the whys and wherefores of soaking raisins in water for the biga? Is it a way of exploiting the wild yeast that is always found on grapes?

JLP

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: foolishpoolish on February 13, 2011, 11:01:05 AM
Norma,

You can get unbelievably light crusts by using a long pan rise, as that guy did, although it comes at the cost of the openness of the crumb. I've made many tomato pizzas where I went even further and did the entire rise in the pan, stretching the dough out periodically over the course of 4-6 hours or so. The end result was so light that I could eat an entire 13 x 9.5 inch pie by myself and feel hungry again within two hours. However, the crumb was like whitebread in structure and tasted/ate accordingly.

Would you (or anybody else) be able to explain the whys and wherefores of soaking raisins in water for the biga? Is it a way of exploiting the wild yeast that is always found on grapes?

JLP



There was some discussion about it about 2 years ago on "the fresh loaf" but I think you can find at least some of the information here:

http://originalyeast.blogspot.com/2008/02/how-to-make-yeast-water.html

It is natural leavening courtesy of "grape" (or raisin) yeast. My guess would be a strain of Dekkera bruxellensis.

Additional: There's also some discussion and examples of starters of raisin provenance on this thread http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10702.0.html
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on February 13, 2011, 11:28:35 AM
Thanks for the linkage. It makes perfect sense- it's how wine was invented after all.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 13, 2011, 01:13:13 PM
The final product
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 13, 2011, 01:34:32 PM
OH MAN! What a bake - you nailed the crumb. It looks like your flour combo paid off. How long were these in the oven?

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 13, 2011, 02:30:55 PM
OH MAN! What a bake - you nailed the crumb. It looks like your flour combo paid off. How long were these in the oven?

John

Thanks bro. I knew this was a rockstar dough as soon as I pulled it from the mixer. In all honesty, I never time my bakes. They were baked at 500.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: parallei on February 13, 2011, 02:44:05 PM
Looking good Matt ;D

Paul
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 13, 2011, 02:47:27 PM
Jose,

Thanks for asking the questions about the raisin water and finding out the answer from Toby.  Thanks for also telling me you did make pizza in a pan already that was very light.  That makes me wonder if I am using too much oil in my current doughs I have tried.  I guess there is a certain balance between lightness of the crust and the open hole structure.

Toby,

I find that fascinating how yeast water is made and how it can ferment dough. Thanks for the links to the blog. Her blog is eye opening to me.  I would like to ask you a question if you know anything about water kefir with fruit added and if that water can be used to ferment dough.  I have water kefir grains with added dried cranberries right now and havenít tried the water in anything as of now.  Do you have any idea if the water from the water kefir and cranberries can be used?  

Matt,

I agree with John that your bake was superb!  ;D Your crumb structure looks amazing.  Did you oil the top of both of your doughs before the bake?


Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on February 13, 2011, 05:31:45 PM
In the wake of Matt's excellent bake above, I present a write-up of one I did today. The formula was as follows: 100% flour, 85% hydro, .25% IDY, 2% salt, 5% oil. The ingredients were first mixed by machine until the bowl cleaned. This yielded a smooth, blubbery dough ball that handled like stretchable jello. An exercise regimen of push-and-folds for over three minutes, followed by a 20 minute rest, more push-and-folds for less than three minutes, another 20 minute rest, and a final two minutes of push-and-folds gave it much more muscle. It was put in the fridge for 46 1/4 hours, and then placed in a warm room for 3 1/2 more. By the time it was formed, it was once again very soft, jiggly, and extremely extensible. It had a lot of gas in it too; lots of bubbles formed on the surface as it was being massaged. Topped and baked in teglia on a stone at 510 on the low rack for 12 minutes.

One of the objectives of this experiment was to see what would happen with a large amount of oil at a very high hydration level. Another was to see whether or not a pizza in teglia-type dough could withstand a large amount of toppings. I really layered and shovelled them on to this one: a solid layer of pepperoni atop the sauce, followed by cheese (lots), followed by bacon, mushrooms, and green pepper (as much as would fit).

The result was a pie that was very, very soft and floppy, almost soggy, but with very good pull. With respect to the crumb, the side view gave the superficial impression of a very dense crumb, but pulling various pieces apart revealed that the alveoles were all there; they had just been compressed by the toppings and thus obscured from view. The eating experience was certainly of a light and fluffy crust.

The flavour was good, but nothing to shout about.

I'm going to wait and see how the last slice reheats before I render the final verdict- but as something to eat straight out of the oven I won't be doing 5% oil at this hydration level again and wouldn't advise anybody to try.

Here is the one and only pic I managed to snap before the camera battery went south.

JLP

   
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 14, 2011, 04:57:36 AM
Looking good Matt ;D

Paul

Thank you Paul.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 14, 2011, 05:03:05 AM

Matt,

I agree with John that your bake was superb!  ;D Your crumb structure looks amazing.  Did you oil the top of both of your doughs before the bake?


Norma

Thanks Norma,
The bianca was drizzled with EVOO, the cremini pizza was not parbaked; it was dressed & baked.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 14, 2011, 08:36:05 AM
I mixed another dough last evening for another attempt at a Pizzarium style pizza.  I started the dough on Friday by mixing a poolish (I used the same numbers from 1 dough ball for my preferment Lehmann dough) I let the poolish start to bubble and put it into the refrigerator.  I have seen when I make the poolish at market on a Friday and let the poolish only start to bubble how strong the poolish becomes after refrigerating it until Monday, with many gluten strands.  That is why I decided to try a poolish prepared this way.  The others things I changed in this last dough were, I used all KASL in the poolish and final dough, dropped the hydration to 80% and also dropped the oil to 3%. 

The first 3 pictures show the poolish yesterday and the forth picture is the final dough.  I have no idea how this dough is going to bake.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: scottserena on February 14, 2011, 11:34:42 AM
Hello all, my very first post!

I have been lurking for a while now, and learning so much from all of you. Thanks for your passion and dedication to this craft.

This is my second attempt at this type of pizza. My first attempt was decent, but this one was much better.
For my first attempt I used 100% Caputo 00 flour. Although it was decent it lacked the right texture and chew.

For this second attempt I used 30% Caputo 00 flour and 70% KABF. I used the stretch and fold method, 4 times with 15 minute rest periods in between. Then a 48 hour cold ferment. Followed by a 2 hour rise in the pan.
Baked at 475 degrees convention with pan placed on pizza stones. I baked them un-topped for 10 minutes and then added San Marzano tomatoes, spicy Italian sausage, arugula, and yes a bit of anchovies. Baked for another 10 minutes. I turned the pizzas every 5 minutes for even browning.

The lack of cheese is intentional, as my wife doesn't eat cheese. And me being the loving husband I go without. Well sometimes I do bake two, one with cheese, one without.  Many of the pizzas in Rome are served cheese less.

I liked these very much. The texture and taste was similar to some of the pizzas we had in Rome.

I hope to be a worthy contributor to the website int he future. 
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 14, 2011, 11:53:40 AM
Hello all, my very first post!

I have been lurking for a while now, and learning so much from all of you. Thanks for your passion and dedication to this craft.

This is my second attempt at this type of pizza. My first attempt was decent, but this one was much better.
For my first attempt I used 100% Caputo 00 flour. Although it was decent it lacked the right texture and chew.

For this second attempt I used 30% Caputo 00 flour and 70% KABF. I used the stretch and fold method, 4 times with 15 minute rest periods in between. Then a 48 hour cold ferment. Followed by a 2 hour rise in the pan.
Baked at 475 degrees convention with pan placed on pizza stones. I baked them un-topped for 10 minutes and then added San Marzano tomatoes, spicy Italian sausage, arugula, and yes a bit of anchovies. Baked for another 10 minutes. I turned the pizzas every 5 minutes for even browning.

The lack of cheese is intentional, as my wife doesn't eat cheese. And me being the loving husband I go without. Well sometimes I do bake two, one with cheese, one without.  Many of the pizzas in Rome are served cheese less.

I liked these very much. The texture and taste was similar to some of the pizzas we had in Rome.

I hope to be a worthy contributor to the website int he future. 

scottserena,

Welcome to the forum.  Your second attempt looks very good!   :)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 14, 2011, 05:57:35 PM
I don't know if anyone is interested in this article or not, but I will post it, because it does have some good pictures.  There are some videos in the comments of Gabriele mixing something and forming some kind of dough, but I don't know what kind of dough he is handling.

http://blog.paperogiallo.net/2011/02/bonci_gabriele_cuoco_pizzaiolo_alchimista_inventore.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkebF-jotmw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zsa-dyBBqkM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wnx5FmASACo

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 14, 2011, 07:29:39 PM
Norma - These 3 videos encompass Bonci's pizza in teglia recipe and workflow from start to finish, probably what he teaches in his class. What a great find! You can see his double hydration method, which is done by hand, his stretch and folds, and final shaping going into the pan. Very informative. Here is the 4th video in the mini-series:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeDfySCW7p0&feature=related

A recap: .7% IDY, 2% salt, 4% oil per 1k of flour. He mixes most of the water into the flour, kneads by hand well, and then adds the rest of the water and other ingredients and mixes well again. He then does 4 stretch and folds 10 minutes apart - notice his technique. You also see how smooth and pliable the dough gets by the 4th turn. Then it is into the fridge for 24 hours. We know the rest - parbake rosso or bianco, and then top for more baking.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 14, 2011, 07:38:18 PM
Norma - These 3 videos encompass Bonci's pizza in teglia recipe and workflow from start to finish, probably what he teaches in his class. What a great find! You can see his double hydration method, which is done by hand, his stretch and folds, and final shaping going into the pan. Very informative. Here is the 4th video in the mini-series:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeDfySCW7p0&feature=related

A recap: .7% IDY, 2% salt, 4% oil per 1k of flour. He mixes most of the water into the flour, kneads by hand well, and then adds the rest of the water and other ingredients and mixes well again. He then does 4 stretch and folds 10 minutes apart - notice his technique. You also see how smooth and pliable the dough gets by the 4th turn. Then it is into the fridge for 24 hours. We know the rest - parbake rosso or bianco, and then top for more baking.

John

John,

I didnít realize the three videos were Bonciís recipe and workflow, probably from his pizza classes.  Iíll have to study them more.

Thanks for finding the 4th video and doing the translations.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on February 14, 2011, 10:35:57 PM
This thread just keeps getting better and better.

Scottserena: Glad you found the forum and thread. Your pie looks fab. If you could find the time to describe the pies you ate in Rome, it would be a big boon to this thread and those of us who can't make it out there just yet.

Norma, John: Those videos are awesome, mucho thanks for finding them. It was very illuminating to see how few stretch-and-folds he does; now I know what I was doing wrong (namely way too many).

JLP 
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 15, 2011, 06:12:58 AM
Awesome find guys..... I love watching him work; truly flawless.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 15, 2011, 07:06:32 AM
This isnít any dough handling or work flow methods, but of the opening of the remodeled Pizzarium.  http://machetiseimangiato.com/2011/02/bonci-bo-pizzarium-riapre/

I can only guess but, I think this is Bonciís new facebook page.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001794414348&sk=wall

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: doughboy55 on February 15, 2011, 08:51:22 AM
I punched in the information into the dough calculator and came out with this.

Bonci Recipe
Flour (100%):    448.41 g  |  15.82 oz | 0.99 lbs
Water (70%):    313.89 g  |  11.07 oz | 0.69 lbs
IDY (.7%):    3.14 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.04 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
Salt (2%):    8.97 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.61 tsp | 0.54 tbsp
Oil (4%):    17.94 g | 0.63 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.99 tsp | 1.33 tbsp
Total (176.7%):   792.34 g | 27.95 oz | 1.75 lbs | TF = 0.15
For 1 Dough Ball Pan Size 15.75 11.825
Look about right?
Alright so when you regenerate the dough would you say 4 stretch and folds every 10 minutes 4 times?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: scottserena on February 15, 2011, 09:17:22 AM
This thread just keeps getting better and better.

Scottserena: Glad you found the forum and thread. Your pie looks fab. If you could find the time to describe the pies you ate in Rome, it would be a big boon to this thread and those of us who can't make it out there just yet.

JLP 

The pizzas in Rome are incredible! Somehow they are light and dense at the same time. Crunchy on the outside, with a soft moist open crumb on the inside. Always very lightly topped. If it has tomato sauce on it and many do not, it is a very thin layer and it seems to bake right into the crust. Cheese also seems to be not as commonly used as you would have thought.

You walk up to the counter and point to the type of pizza you want (some of my favorites were the very spicy red pepper and tomato , Pizza with oil packed tuna, and the potato pizza is not be missed) and show with your hands how big of a slice you want. They use scissors and cut the amount you requested. Popped in a toaster oven for a minute or two, wrapped in paper. You typical eat it standing up or walking.

This was one of my favorites:
forno campo de fiori (sorry to new to post a hyperlink) Peter Reinhardt writes extensively about this place in American Pie.

First Picture is making the pizzas on 4 foot wood planks

Second Picture is some of the pizzas

Third picture is my son and myself enjoying a slice of heaven!

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on February 15, 2011, 11:34:31 AM
Doughboy: The formula looks pretty solid. With respect to the rigeneri, you could use the four cycles of four stretch-and-folds as a baseline and, according to how the dough develops, just do more or fewer if and as necessary.

Scottserena: Thanks for the detailed description, it's what I've been looking for for a long time and never found until now. The pics were great too.

Now that I know that pizza with tuna in oil is indeed feasible, I'm going to have to give it a whirl sometime...

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 15, 2011, 10:15:58 PM
My bake didnít go as well this week as last week.  I donít know what happened with this attempt because the dough felt the same as last week.  I didnít have as much trouble with this dough in developing the gluten.  The dough felt very bubbly and it opened the same as last week.  As can be seen the crumb, after the bake, isnít as light and airy as my last attempt.  The crumb did taste good and was light.  This pie was first dressed with herb and garlic infused olive oil and tomato sauce, baked and then the other dressings of brussel sprouts, spinach, red peppers Feta, and mozzarella was added and the pie was put back into the oven.

It can be seen on the pictures how the dough looked and the crumb in the baked pie.  Other standholders, a customer and the one maintenance man did really like this pie.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 15, 2011, 10:18:49 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 15, 2011, 10:21:07 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: doughboy55 on February 16, 2011, 06:39:40 AM
Norma still very solid pie, looks extremely good.
 What is everyone's thoughts on the hydration level's that Gabriele uses? I ask because what hydration levels do you think would be optimal for the current flour im using (KABF and KA organic high gluten), i know very little when it comes to flour but i would assume that i would need more water than he would be using because he's using 00 flour. Would i be correct in assuming this or should i just experiment and see what works in my kitchen?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 16, 2011, 06:51:17 AM
Norma still very solid pie, looks extremely good.
 What is everyone's thoughts on the hydration level's that Gabriele uses? I ask because what hydration levels do you think would be optimal for the current flour im using (KABF and KA organic high gluten), i know very little when it comes to flour but i would assume that i would need more water than he would be using because he's using 00 flour. Would i be correct in assuming this or should i just experiment and see what works in my kitchen?

Bonci is most likely using a type O flour for the class, and the hydration is more about amateur pizza makers being able to handle the dough.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: doughboy55 on February 16, 2011, 07:07:50 AM
Bonci is most likely using a type O flour for the class, and the hydration is more about amateur pizza makers being able to handle the dough.

John

Ahh makes sense.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 16, 2011, 07:54:18 AM
Norma still very solid pie, looks extremely good.

doughboy55,

Thanks, the pie was light and very good, but I still can't figure out what went wrong that I didn't get the same crumb structure as before.  If anyone has any ideas of what I might have done different to change what happened from my last bake, let me know.  The dough felt the same.  In the one picture it shows me lifting the dough up high to show the bubbles in the dough, so Steve could take a picture.  I don't know if me lifting this opened dough up a couple of times for Steve to take the picture messed up my dough or not.  Does anyone think that is what might have happened?

Norma

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 16, 2011, 07:56:14 AM
EDIT:  I had put links here to other Facebook pages with different pictures of Bonci and others in pizza classes and other pictures, but will wait to post the links again if I can find another way of posting them.  Seems like if someone doesn't have a facebook page, they can't look at the pictures.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Pete-zza on February 16, 2011, 08:09:51 AM
Norma,

I could not view the Facebook photos without joining/logging on. Is there another way to view the photos?

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 16, 2011, 08:26:15 AM
Norma,

I could not view the Facebook photos without joining/logging on. Is there another way to view the photos?

Peter

Peter,

I wonder if someone else that doesn't have a Facebook account, also has the same problems.  I will see if there is another way of finding all the pictures.  Someone that does have a facebook account, let me know if you can see the pictures..Thanks

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 16, 2011, 08:40:56 AM
Norma - I think the crumb looks fantastic. I think with this type of pizza, placement in the pan causes variation in the final outcome even though the dough can be exactly the same formula and workflow. You can see this evidenced in the variations shown in pictures of Pizzarium pizza. Or maybe Bonci is as obsessed as us, and he is constantly trying different formulas!

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 16, 2011, 08:52:51 AM
Norma - I think the crumb looks fantastic. I think with this type of pizza, placement in the pan causes variation in the final outcome even though the dough can be exactly the same formula and workflow. You can see this evidenced in the variations shown in pictures of Pizzarium pizza. Or maybe Bonci is as obsessed as us, and he is constantly trying different formulas!

John

John,

Thanks for your kind words about the crumb  It was very light and tasted about the same, but it still bothers me what I did wrong.  The attempt yesterday everything went the same.  The dough rose and was jelly-like, the dough spread out well and the bubbles remained in the dough in the pan.  I also could see all the variations of Bonciís crusts.  Do you have a facebook account or could you view the pictures?  I donít know how to access them without having a facebook account.  I think Bonci is more obsessed than us, but could understand if he uses different formulas.  I think if the dough is right and the workflow is right, this kind of pizza will work.  Those are just my opinions.  I do have the formula I used if anyone wants to see what I did on the Expanded Dough Calculation Tool.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Cass on February 16, 2011, 09:07:44 AM
The second, third and last link are not available but the others work.

:)
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 16, 2011, 09:15:18 AM
The second, third and last link are not available but the others work.

:)

Cass,

I will try to work on why the links didn't work.  I had copied the links and put them in my browser first to see if they would work and they did, but I don't know what else to do.  If someone has some ideas and wants to look at all the pictures, let me know.  I am not a technical person when it comes to computers.  I could copy all the pictures to my computer and then resize them, but that would take too long.  :-D

Any ideas?

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: forzaroma on February 16, 2011, 12:06:17 PM
I punched in the information into the dough calculator and came out with this.

Bonci Recipe
Flour (100%):    448.41 g  |  15.82 oz | 0.99 lbs
Water (70%):    313.89 g  |  11.07 oz | 0.69 lbs
IDY (.7%):    3.14 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.04 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
Salt (2%):    8.97 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.61 tsp | 0.54 tbsp
Oil (4%):    17.94 g | 0.63 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.99 tsp | 1.33 tbsp
Total (176.7%):   792.34 g | 27.95 oz | 1.75 lbs | TF = 0.15
For 1 Dough Ball Pan Size 15.75 11.825
Look about right?
Alright so when you regenerate the dough would you say 4 stretch and folds every 10 minutes 4 times?


So what type of flour is being used in this breakdown?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: forzaroma on February 16, 2011, 12:18:58 PM
In the 3 you tube videos i guess he doesnt use a poolish and according to a link someone posted he uses a poolish in this recipe: http://www.pizza.it/content/2000-domande-voi-pizza-ti-amo

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jet_deck on February 16, 2011, 12:40:37 PM
Peter,

I wonder if someone else that doesn't have a Facebook account, also has the same problems.  I will see if there is another way of finding all the pictures.  Someone that does have a facebook account, let me know if you can see the pictures..Thanks

Norma

I think maybe you have to be his friend to see their pictures.  I have a Fbook account that I hardly use, I'll send him a friend request, and see what happens.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 16, 2011, 01:12:30 PM
In the 3 you tube videos i guess he doesnt use a poolish and according to a link someone posted he uses a poolish in this recipe: http://www.pizza.it/content/2000-domande-voi-pizza-ti-amo




forzaroma,

Thanks for finding the link.  :) That sounds like it was Gabriele Bonci before he opened Pizzarium.  This is what my Goggle translator says.  Does anyone know what that recipe would be in bakerís percents?


THEN ......
..... I'm looking for a good pizza dough in pan to the Roman, I open a pizzeria in cutting my passion, otherwise they are not a pizza chef, but I know perfectly the feeling of embracing the subject, so the dough ... etc. ... etc. ... magno me there all my money and who knows ... then
The representative of flour 5 seasons MAcontinua BSU to push products made of soy so ... while I would like to cut the more 'possible with wheat flour.
Show me a mix ....
heard where I came ...
Spiral Mixer

Poolish with
Water 1lt
3g malt
1g dry yeast
1.2 kg flour w 380 "5 seasons gold"
-------------------------------------
mix 2
50 g ice
I leave it and go down the dough schiogliere temperature about 17 ̊ ...
I put around the machine and add
100g flour 5 seasons gold
+ 400 5 seasons pizza soy
1 g of dry yeast dissolved in 20 grams of water
60 g salt
50 grams extra olive oil mill Sabino "laura bean"
----------------------------------
I leave in the car for 20 minutes and break it to rise with a lap and a half to three times being careful not to exceed 22 ̊
--------------------------------------
in the cell at 4 ̊ for 36 hours
---------------------------------------
is not the world championship, but good pizza.
I have left an oven eletrico of %$#, I think Hammer is in the home, I know well, what I need to keep the temperature of heaven and earth oven?
and if I have available the full range Agugiaro 5 seasons as flour and cuts can I do?
A mixture to be tested?
How does the flour manitopa one with w 400 on poolish? Someone is using it?
To a mixture lightens, belonging to limit the use of the flour with water, as it affects the rate of yeast?
What should I do with the dough dope having removed the baskets from the fridge? Sizes, anoint the piece pans let rise in pan, stretch out seasons and now the oven, or lie down, let rise, season and bake?
or lie down, let rise and bake seasons?

MY PIZZA PIZZARIUM It will be called, is in Rome, via Meloria AREA OF CYPRUS ....

PIZZZZAAAAAA TI AMO

The ferment is THE ENGINE SUPPLY ...

Norma
I think maybe you have to be his friend to see their pictures.  I have a Fbook account that I hardly use, I'll send him a friend request, and see what happens.

Jet_deck,

I think you might be right about being a friend to see the pictures.  I did send a friend request to Bonci Bo the other day and was surprised he accepted me as a friend yesterday.  Maybe he won't be my friend if he sees this thread.  :-[

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: forzaroma on February 16, 2011, 01:17:57 PM
Thanks for the reply Norma as i can read italian i understood it but my question is I found a breakdown of his method along with the 3 youtube videos that show how he stretches and folds. I was just wondering if a poolish was used or why it wasnt used n that particula recipe. Im talking about his recipe:

Bonci Recipe
Flour (100%):    448.41 g  |  15.82 oz | 0.99 lbs
Water (70%):    313.89 g  |  11.07 oz | 0.69 lbs
IDY (.7%):    3.14 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.04 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
Salt (2%):    8.97 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.61 tsp | 0.54 tbsp
Oil (4%):    17.94 g | 0.63 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.99 tsp | 1.33 tbsp
Total (176.7%):   792.34 g | 27.95 oz | 1.75 lbs | TF = 0.15
For 1 Dough Ball Pan Size 15.75 11.825
Look about right?
Alright so when you regenerate the dough would you say 4 stretch and folds every 10 minutes 4 times?


Also can I use KABF is this?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 16, 2011, 01:27:41 PM
Thanks for the reply Norma as i can read italian i understood it but my question is I found a breakdown of his method along with the 3 youtube videos that show how he stretches and folds. I was just wondering if a poolish was used or why it wasnt used n that particula recipe. Im talking about his recipe:

Bonci Recipe
Flour (100%):    448.41 g  |  15.82 oz | 0.99 lbs
Water (70%):    313.89 g  |  11.07 oz | 0.69 lbs
IDY (.7%):    3.14 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.04 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
Salt (2%):    8.97 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.61 tsp | 0.54 tbsp
Oil (4%):    17.94 g | 0.63 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.99 tsp | 1.33 tbsp
Total (176.7%):   792.34 g | 27.95 oz | 1.75 lbs | TF = 0.15
For 1 Dough Ball Pan Size 15.75 11.825
Look about right?
Alright so when you regenerate the dough would you say 4 stretch and folds every 10 minutes 4 times?


Also can I use KABF is this?


I am not that good at figuring if that formula would work or not.  My last few attempts have been higher hydration doughs, with a poolish.  So far I have tried different mixes of flour and yesterday just KASL.  As for trying KABF I would think it would be hard to form the gluten enough, even with 4 stretch and folds.  That is just based on my experience in trying this kind of pizza.  Other members might give you a different opinion.

This is the formula I used for my last attempt.  I used Cake Yeast along with the poolish.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 16, 2011, 01:31:18 PM
Thanks for the reply Norma as i can read italian i understood it but my question is I found a breakdown of his method along with the 3 youtube videos that show how he stretches and folds. I was just wondering if a poolish was used or why it wasnt used n that particula recipe. Im talking about his recipe:

Bonci Recipe
Flour (100%):    448.41 g  |  15.82 oz | 0.99 lbs
Water (70%):    313.89 g  |  11.07 oz | 0.69 lbs
IDY (.7%):    3.14 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.04 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
Salt (2%):    8.97 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.61 tsp | 0.54 tbsp
Oil (4%):    17.94 g | 0.63 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.99 tsp | 1.33 tbsp
Total (176.7%):   792.34 g | 27.95 oz | 1.75 lbs | TF = 0.15
For 1 Dough Ball Pan Size 15.75 11.825
Look about right?
Alright so when you regenerate the dough would you say 4 stretch and folds every 10 minutes 4 times?


Also can I use KABF is this?

The recipe above is for his class - which uses IDY in place of a poolish or a natural preferment - and is geared toward ease of use in an amateur setting. Bonci, in his production dough, no longer uses a poolish and now uses a "mother" or starter.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: forzaroma on February 16, 2011, 01:32:04 PM
Your poolish just water flour? Developed over say 10 days? i never made a poolish but i will try this one I found on slice: http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/11/how-to-make-sourdough-starter-day-0.html
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: doughboy55 on February 16, 2011, 01:39:37 PM
Which flour combination would you believe yield greater results, 100% KA organic high gluten flour, or 75% KABF 25% KA organic high gluten flour? Or any other combination using these 2 flours because this is the only flour i have on hand right now, I can't decide which to try this week.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 16, 2011, 01:48:09 PM
Your poolish just water flour? Developed over say 10 days? i never made a poolish but i will try this one I found on slice: http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/11/how-to-make-sourdough-starter-day-0.html

forzaroma,

This is how I made my poolish at Reply 488 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg126909.html#msg126909 It was equal amounts of flour 75.66 grams and water 75.66 grams with 0.23 grams of IDY (a little bit less than 3/32 teaspoon.)  This was for the 11x11 inch pan I used. 

Norma

Which flour combination would you believe yield greater results, 100% KA organic high gluten flour, or 75% KABF 25% KA organic high gluten flour? Or any other combination using these 2 flours because this is the only flour i have on hand right now, I can't decide which to try this week.

doughboy55,

I am not an expert on what flours to try and have tried many mixed flours in my last few pies, but would think either of your options might work.  In my opinion it is more about watching the dough to see when it has formed enough gluten and then the workflow leading up to the bake.  This is a hard to understand dough.  Maybe other members can also help you with the choices of flours you have on hand.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: forzaroma on February 16, 2011, 01:51:27 PM
Thanks Norma. When using a dough recipe and using a starter over IDY how do you know how much to use? Would you use both?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 16, 2011, 04:56:17 PM
Thanks Norma. When using a dough recipe and using a starter over IDY how do you know how much to use? Would you use both?

forzaroma,

I really donít know how much starter (either natural or commercial) to use.  In this type of pizza I have tried a natural starter(milk kefir), IDY, and cake yeast or a combination.  I am still playing around with different formulas to see what can work.  So far I like the (poolish with IDY) and Cake Yeast, but with more experiments I could change my mind.  I do have the Ischia starter and might also try that at some point.  I am not good with math, so I just think what I might want to try and then give it a go.  I donít know what my preferment percentage would look like for my last formula I tried.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: doughboy55 on February 16, 2011, 07:45:43 PM
Quick question when storing the dough in the fridge what are your thoughts on putting a small amount of oil in the bowl? My grandmother does this and was wondering if anyone else does?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 16, 2011, 08:03:18 PM
The two small slices of the attempt I made at market yesterday, were reheated this evening for dinner. I cut the small slices with a scissors, into smaller slices, to show how the crumb looks.  I decided to take a video of the reheated slices to show what they really look like. If anyone is interested in looking, this is the video.  I didnít realize when I took the video, but after it was uploaded, (I had the radio on, when I took the video) I received this email, that I might have infringed on copyrights and the video might have content that is owned or licensed by Warner Chappell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99dR4YsMEBY

Two pictures of the cut slices

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 16, 2011, 08:06:09 PM
Quick question when storing the dough in the fridge what are your thoughts on putting a small amount of oil in the bowl? My grandmother does this and was wondering if anyone else does?

doughboy55.

I usually oil all my doughs, but haven't oiled any of the doughs, for this type of pizza, I have made so far.  Maybe other members will tell you what they do for this type of dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: scottserena on February 16, 2011, 09:01:31 PM
doughboy55.

I usually oil all my doughs, but haven't oiled any of the doughs, for this type of pizza, I have made so far.  Maybe other members will tell you what they do for this type of dough.

Norma

The video and instruction from Bondi shows him oiling the bowl
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: scottserena on February 16, 2011, 09:12:25 PM
from Elizabeth Minchilli website:

The Flour: The quality of the pizza depends on the quality of the flour. (duh!) Always try to use flour that is organic, untreated and preferably stone-ground. Since these flours are living things, store them in the fridge. The flour that Bonci recommends (and the one that Iíve been using for years) is from Mulino Marino. (It is imported to the States and you can get it at Formaggio Kitchen). In Rome, itís becoming more readily available and you can find it at Pizzarium, Domus Birrae and La Tradizione. (And the cute guy helping Bonci in the video is Mr. Fulvio Marino himself, down from Piedmonte for the class)


I have tried to find this flour, but even the website she lists doesn't seem to carry it. It is a type "0"  not "00" 

 
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: parallei on February 16, 2011, 09:45:38 PM
 I think most of us get the general idea.  However, for anyone that might be interested, my wife was kind enough to take a shot at translating the Bonci videos that Norma and John posted links to:

The Pizza of Gabriele Bonci

PART 1 Ė THE DOUGH

We work the water and flour in a big bowl.

We add the yeast (7 grams per 1 kilo of flour)

Knead well with your hands

Continue to add water

In this phase the dough should be rough

We add 40 grams of oil per kilo of flour, 20 grams of salt and then work (knead)

Let it rest for 10 minutes in a contain adding a drop of oil

PART 2 Ė THE REGENERATION

The first regeneration

Let rest 10 minutes

The second regeneration

Let rest for another 10 minutes

And then the cap

The seam (fold) of the dough should always be turned vertically to our body

Always a 10 minute pause between one regeneration and the next

The fourth regeneration

Final (with bravura)

We cover it and put it in the refrigerator for 24 hours  (the name is optional)

PART 3 Ė THE COMPILATION

We oil a baking pan lightly with oil

We take the dough that we left to rise for 24 hours and dust it with dough

We begin the compilation by flattening the borders

Then we pass over the center and turn the dough to the other side

We continue gently massaging the dough with the fingertips

We check also that the bench flour is well distributed

We lift the dough resting on the arm (not the hand)

And we arrange it in the pan continuing to massage it

PART 4 Ė TOPPINGS AND COOKING

For the red pizza we put on the uncooked tomato using the hand

We add oil

And we put it in the lowest part of the oven for maximum heat

After about a quarter of an hour test the cooking. When the base is ready we move the pizza to the center part of the oven  and let it go for a few more minutes.

We add the mozzarella

And (optionally) we put the pizza in the oven for a few moments

We cut it with a scissors to respect the crust

For the stuffed pizza we stretch two doughs one on the other with oil in the middle

We put the condiments  on the top layer

And we make little holes with a spoon

Once it is cooked separating the two parts is simple

Stuff as you please, Bonci has stuffed with ricotta, greens

Oil

Salt

And a little pepper. Buon appetito!
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: doughboy55 on February 17, 2011, 04:23:20 PM
Last night i made a batch of dough 75% KABF 25% KAHG and did everything the same as for the mixing but i used the stretch and fold technique for the regeneration of the dough and now i looked at the dough it looked fantastic, i did 1 more set of stretch and fold and will sit in the fridge for another 18-20 hours before i pull it out to proof. I could see the air bubbles forming as i finished the stretch and folds.
One questions regarding the technique, when i finish with all the stretch and folds should i let it sit at room temp for 10 minutes or so or put it right into the fridge?
-Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 17, 2011, 05:51:01 PM
One questions regarding the technique, when i finish with all the stretch and folds should i let it sit at room temp for 10 minutes or so or put it right into the fridge?
-Matt

It won't make a difference. 

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: doughboy55 on February 17, 2011, 07:06:06 PM
It won't make a difference. 

Matt

That's what i figured but was just confirming thank you.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: doughboy55 on February 18, 2011, 01:34:35 PM
When using the expanding dough calculator tool does anyone use the bowl residue feature and if so what %?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 18, 2011, 02:25:15 PM
When using the expanding dough calculator tool does anyone use the bowl residue feature and if so what %?

doughboy55,


Sometimes I use a bowl residue and sometimes I donít. It all depends on if I think there would be enough difference in how the dough might stick to my hands or my equipment and if it would affect my thickness factor.

Here is a post to bowl residue compensation from Peter (Pete-zza)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg127226.html#msg127226

Hope this helps.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: doughboy55 on February 18, 2011, 05:35:31 PM
My latest attempt has left me disappointed, the crumb was OK at best but did possess the crunch i was looking for that wasn't there the last attempt. I will increase the hydration to 85% and the CY back up to 1%. Here are the photo's. Some pieces had the holes i was looking for others did not. None the less here is the pictures.
http://s1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc504/blizzgeek22/my%20second%20try/?action=view&current=DSC00819.jpg

Any thoughts?
The picture of the dough is after it proofed at room temp for about 2 hours.
The difference in the methods i used to make the dough is that i used the stretch and fold technique instead of the mixer for the regeneration phase other than that everything was the same.

Also could someone point me to a good post about using starter i have no experience with it and was wondering if i should try using it since many of you guys are using it in this dough?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: scottserena on February 18, 2011, 08:57:35 PM
I wrote to the USA distributor of the flour Bonci uses
Here is their response:

Good afternoon, Scott. Thank you for your email. Unfortunately, we do not offer tipo 0 or 1 flour from Mulino Marino. If you like, we can special order a quantity of it for you. Please let me know if I can be of further help.

So i am going to find out what the minimum size order is. Anyone interested?

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 18, 2011, 10:35:06 PM
My latest attempt has left me disappointed, the crumb was OK at best but did possess the crunch i was looking for that wasn't there the last attempt. I will increase the hydration to 85% and the CY back up to 1%. Here are the photo's. Some pieces had the holes i was looking for others did not. None the less here is the pictures.
http://s1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc504/blizzgeek22/my%20second%20try/?action=view&current=DSC00819.jpg

Any thoughts?
The picture of the dough is after it proofed at room temp for about 2 hours.
The difference in the methods i used to make the dough is that i used the stretch and fold technique instead of the mixer for the regeneration phase other than that everything was the same.

Also could someone point me to a good post about using starter i have no experience with it and was wondering if i should try using it since many of you guys are using it in this dough?


doughboy55,

I have been trying to make this kind of dough for over a year, so don't be disappointed. You pie looks good.  :)  I still am not consistent with my results.  What kind of starter do you want to try in your formula.  Do you want to use a poolish made with IDY?  Do you know what percent of poolish you want to try in the dough?

Norma

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 19, 2011, 06:41:01 AM

So i am going to find out what the minimum size order is. Anyone interested?



Yep. Tell me where to send the money.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: doughboy55 on February 19, 2011, 06:50:53 AM
doughboy55,

I have been trying to make this kind of dough for over a year, so don't be disappointed. You pie looks good.  :)  I still am not consistent with my results.  What kind of starter do you want to try in your formula.  Do you want to use a poolish made with IDY?  Do you know what percent of poolish you want to try in the dough?

Norma



What would you recommend?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 19, 2011, 07:06:11 AM
John,
How much dough are you using in the 35 x 50cm pan?  Mine are on their way, I should get them in time for next weekend.  In the meantime, I just finished mixing a batch for tomorrow.  This time I went 60/40 Organic Hard Spring Wheat/Semola & upped the hydration to about 78%.  In your next batch mix some extra dough & use it to make the best english muffins ever.  I'm going to make some tomorrow morning; I'll post some pics.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 19, 2011, 07:43:16 AM
John,
How much dough are you using in the 35 x 50cm pan?  Mine are on their way, I should get them in time for next weekend.  In the meantime, I just finished mixing a batch for tomorrow.  This time I went 60/40 Organic Hard Spring Wheat/Semola & upped the hydration to about 78%.  In your next batch mix some extra dough & use it to make the best english muffins ever.  I'm going to make some tomorrow morning; I'll post some pics.

Matt

Matt - 700 grams (.15 TF) on my last bake, but I think I want to go higher on the TF. Judging from your last bake, you will definitely need more to get the same thickness. On the pans - they are very heat absorbant, and you may need to adjust your heat accordingly. I was cooking in the 525 range, and needed to lower down to 490(ish) to avoid burning. But they make a huge difference in the quality of the final product.

Excellent idea on the english muffins. Can't wait to see them.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 19, 2011, 08:02:28 AM
What would you recommend?

doughboy55,

I really canít recommend any certain formula, but the formula at Reply 441 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg126280.html#msg126280 did give me decent results.  I used a poolish in that formula, but didnít figure it out on the preferment dough calculating tool.  I since have dropped the hydration and also the thickness factor.  I have used different flours in my formulas.  If you need any other help, just let me know.  Maybe other members can also tell you what they used.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 19, 2011, 08:03:10 AM
Matt - 700 grams (.15 TF) on my last bake, but I think I want to go higher on the TF. Judging from your last bake, you will definitely need more to get the same thickness. On the pans - they are very heat absorbant, and you may need to adjust your heat accordingly. I was cooking in the 525 range, and needed to lower down to 490(ish) to avoid burning. But they make a huge difference in the quality of the final product.

Excellent idea on the english muffins. Can't wait to see them.

John

Thanks John.  Believe it or not that was the TF that I used.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 19, 2011, 08:10:33 AM
Thanks John.  Believe it or not that was the TF that I used.

Matt

Ouch. I have alot of work to do!

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 19, 2011, 09:05:23 AM
Ouch. I have alot of work to do!

John

What size are pans?  I ordered 3 of the 35 x 50cm.  Based on a TF of .15 it works out to about 1150g/teglia.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 19, 2011, 09:48:42 AM
What size are pans?  I ordered 3 of the 35 x 50cm.  Based on a TF of .15 it works out to about 1150g/teglia.

Matt

You got the next size up from the ones I have. Mine are 15.75 by 11.825 in.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: doughboy55 on February 19, 2011, 10:51:02 AM
My next go at the teglia pizza i will be using a poolish, i inputted the information into the calculator and this is what i came up with.

Poolish for 1 dough ball   
Total Formula:
Flour (100%):    437.59 g  |  15.44 oz | 0.96 lbs
Water (80%):    350.07 g  |  12.35 oz | 0.77 lbs
Salt (2.5%):    10.94 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.96 tsp | 0.65 tbsp
CY (1%):    4.38 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs |
Oil (3%):    13.13 g | 0.46 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.92 tsp | 0.97 tbsp
Total (186.5%):   816.11 g | 28.79 oz | 1.8 lbs | TF = 0.1545

Preferment:
Flour:    43.76 g | 1.54 oz | 0.1 lbs
Water:    43.76 g | 1.54 oz | 0.1 lbs
Total:    87.52 g | 3.09 oz | 0.19 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:    393.83 g | 13.89 oz | 0.87 lbs
Water:    306.31 g | 10.8 oz | 0.68 lbs
Salt:    10.94 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.96 tsp | 0.65 tbsp
CY:    4.38 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | Preferment:    87.52 g | 3.09 oz | 0.19 lbs
Oil:    13.13 g | 0.46 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.92 tsp | 0.97 tbsp
Total:    816.11 g | 28.79 oz | 1.8 lbs  | TF = 0.1545

Could anyone help me with how to make the poolish and how i should incorporate it into the recipe? Also for the Preferment it doesn't say how much yeast i should use what would you recommend?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 19, 2011, 11:06:09 AM
You got the next size up from the ones I have. Mine are 15.75 by 11.825 in.

John

Ah ok.....I thought that we had ordered the same size.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 19, 2011, 11:16:49 AM
My next go at the teglia pizza i will be using a poolish, i inputted the information into the calculator and this is what i came up with.

Poolish for 1 dough ball   
Total Formula:
Flour (100%):    437.59 g  |  15.44 oz | 0.96 lbs
Water (80%):    350.07 g  |  12.35 oz | 0.77 lbs
Salt (2.5%):    10.94 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.96 tsp | 0.65 tbsp
CY (1%):    4.38 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs |
Oil (3%):    13.13 g | 0.46 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.92 tsp | 0.97 tbsp
Total (186.5%):   816.11 g | 28.79 oz | 1.8 lbs | TF = 0.1545

Preferment:
Flour:    43.76 g | 1.54 oz | 0.1 lbs
Water:    43.76 g | 1.54 oz | 0.1 lbs
Total:    87.52 g | 3.09 oz | 0.19 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:    393.83 g | 13.89 oz | 0.87 lbs
Water:    306.31 g | 10.8 oz | 0.68 lbs
Salt:    10.94 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.96 tsp | 0.65 tbsp
CY:    4.38 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | Preferment:    87.52 g | 3.09 oz | 0.19 lbs
Oil:    13.13 g | 0.46 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.92 tsp | 0.97 tbsp
Total:    816.11 g | 28.79 oz | 1.8 lbs  | TF = 0.1545

Could anyone help me with how to make the poolish and how i should incorporate it into the recipe? Also for the Preferment it doesn't say how much yeast i should use what would you recommend?

Try .81% CY

If fermenting at room temperature, it will peak at around the 3-4 hour mark.  If not, refrigerate for 24-72 hours & remove from fridge at least an hour prior to use.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: doughboy55 on February 19, 2011, 12:14:54 PM
Try .81% CY

If fermenting at room temperature, it will peak at around the 3-4 hour mark.  If not, refrigerate for 24-72 hours & remove from fridge at least an hour prior to use.

Matt
Alright thanks, when using the poolish should i add it in after the autolyse or when? Also would i subtract that amount of yeast from the formula recipe? Also what type of flour should i use for the poolish the same what im using for the dough i would assume correct? 75%KABF and 25% KAHG
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 19, 2011, 12:24:47 PM
Alright thanks, when using the poolish should i add it in after the autolyse or when? Also would i subtract that amount of yeast from the formula recipe? Also what type of flour should i use for the poolish the same what im using for the dough i would assume correct? 75%KABF and 25% KAHG

A true autolyse is just flour & water. Since the poolish contains yeast, you should add it after. Yes, you need to subtract the amount of yeast from the total formula. 

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: doughboy55 on February 19, 2011, 12:48:14 PM
When making the poolish with CY it's basically dissolving the CY in the water, then mixing in the flour then stirring it until its smooth?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Pete-zza on February 19, 2011, 03:13:58 PM
doughboy55,

Time has not permitted me to follow this thread as much as I would like, so I won't be able to help you with what you wish to do. Maybe other members who have worked with poolish or other preferments in the context of a Pizzarium dough (or even some other dough) may be able to counsel you as to how to proceed with your poolish experiment. However, I can tell you that none of the dough calculating tools was designed to work with poolish preferments other than naturally-leavened preferments, including those that are supplemented by commercial yeast as part of the final mix. Unfortunately, all of the math for what you want to do has to be done with pencil and paper and a calculator. The exercise itself isn't all that difficult, and you may be able to come up with a three-stage protocol after a few hours of work, but if the dough formulation is a new one, it can take considerably longer. And, with each change to the formulation you make as your experiments proceed, you have to do the math all over again.

I consider working with preferments to fall into the category of advanced, or maybe intermediate, pizza making. You have to understand what you are doing, and especially so with a new formulation that you are creating. If you are bent on proceeding along the lines you mentioned, or until someone comes along to assist you, you may want to read the articles that I read when I became interested in commercially-leavened preferments. They are the Didier Rosada articles at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm and at http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm. You can also see some examples of how the math is handled at Reply 149 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687, at Reply 225 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg90226.html#msg90226 and, more recently, at Reply 155 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg124913.html#msg124913. In all three cases, I used the dough calculating tools but that was to get a neat formatting of the output data. All the math was done by hand and using a calculator. Unfortunately, those examples won't help you with what you want to do. They are uniquely tied to specific applications.

Good luck.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 19, 2011, 04:09:52 PM
doughboy55,

As Peter posted when using a commercial preferment is it hard to understand what to do.  He is also right in each new experiment you want to try the numbers will change. Unless you are good with figuring out calculations with paper, pencil, and hand caculator this will be hard. I am not good with the math part of figuring all this out either, so I usually guess how much poolish preferment to use and go from there.  Mattís advice of backing out some of your CY you want to use in the formula and then using that in the poolish is good.  I used IDY in my poolish and then used CY in some of my doughs for this thread, but I only was guessing if they would work, from experience I had with working with different doughs. 

If you want to do a true autolyse Matt is right, you would just add the flour and water and the poolish later.  I donít usually do a true autolyse when making this kind of dough.  I mix my poolish (wait until it is ready) then mix it in with the water, and then add the flour in steps to help develop the gluten. 

If you donít have a lot of experience with dough, even trying to get the gluten to form enough can be hard to understand.

My recent poolish I made was at Reply 488 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg126909.html#msg126909 There I mixed the IDY, flour and water until the ingredients were mixed well.  The poolish can be left at room temperatures to ferment until there are many bubbles, or put into a oven with a light on to speed the process, or left to bubble a little and let the poolish ferment slower over a couple of days until the poolish bubbles more.  A classic poolish is used when the bubbles just begin to fall, but I donít always do it that way.  I have found by letting the poolish in the refrigerator for a couple of days it can work for me.

I have changed my methods with this dough many times and sometimes donít use any poolish or other preferment.  That way you could easily figure out your formula on the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html

Best of luck and if I can help in explaining anything, let me know.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: doughboy55 on February 19, 2011, 04:44:20 PM
Thanks to everyone for helping me grasp this technique and it does seem very complex for a beginner. There is so much to learn and a lot of information to absorb thanks again for your help.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: scottserena on February 19, 2011, 06:13:36 PM
Yep. Tell me where to send the money.

John

John,

What do you think would be best 0 or 1?


Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 19, 2011, 08:28:27 PM
John,

What do you think would be best 0 or 1?




I would love to try both, but 0 would be my first choice.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 20, 2011, 07:15:51 AM
I saw this bloggers new post about going to the remodeled Pizzarium.   http://senzapanna.blogspot.com/2011/02/pizzarium-2-il-ritorno.html

I copied the one picture of the slices of pizza in teglia, so it can be seen how thick the slices are.  I believe Matt and John are right about the TF being higher.  Picture below.  Any other ideas what anyone thinks the TF is from this picture?

I see in this blogger new post it says: I can say that this new pizza dough, mixed grain, and spelled enkir is superior to the memories and expectations.  Does anyone know what spelled enkir in the new pizza dough and mixed grain mean?

In this blog Elizabeth talks about her failed attempt at Bonci style pizza at home and posted: I never took the time to let the dough rise slowly over night, as Bonci suggests.  She posted:  Her downfall was the yeast.

http://www.elizabethminchilliinrome.com/2011/02/pizza-failure-roman-crackers.html

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 20, 2011, 07:33:15 AM

I see in this blogger new post it says: I can say that this new pizza dough, mixed grain, and spelled enkir is superior to the memories and expectations.  Does anyone know what spelled enkir in the new pizza dough and mixed grain mean?

Norma

Norma - I believe that Bonci is starting to use "ancient" grains in his dough. Mulino Marino has these types of flour, one of which is Enkir.

http://www.mulinomarino.it/prodotti.php#farrointegrale

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 20, 2011, 07:37:33 AM
Norma - I believe that Bonci is starting to use "ancient" grains in his dough. Mulino Marino has these types of flour, one of which is Enkir.

http://www.mulinomarino.it/prodotti.php#farrointegrale

John

John,

Thanks for telling me what Enkir is and also for posting the link. I wonder what that does to Bonciís dough and final pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 20, 2011, 07:45:52 AM
John,

Do you know if this is the same kind of Enkir that Bonci might use in his dough?

http://www.formaggiokitchen.com/shop/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=enkir

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 20, 2011, 07:52:16 AM
John,

Do you know if this is the same kind of Enkir that Bonci might use in his dough?

http://www.formaggiokitchen.com/shop/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=enkir

Norma

Yes, most likely.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 20, 2011, 07:54:59 AM
I don't want to steer this thread in another direction, but I just wanted to post a pic of the English Muffins I made this morning using my pizza romana dough.  
Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 20, 2011, 07:58:23 AM
I don't want to steer this thread in another direction, but I just wanted to post a pic of the English Muffins I made this morning using my pizza romana dough.  
Matt

Matt,

Your picture of the English Muffins made with your pizza romana dough looks delicious!   :)  How was the crumb of the muffins?

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 20, 2011, 08:00:15 AM
Matt,

Your picture of the English Muffins made with your pizza romana dough looks delicious!   :)  How was the crumb of the muffins?

Norma

Thanks Norma.  The crumb was superb, give them a try.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 20, 2011, 03:13:37 PM
Best one by far thus far. :)

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: parallei on February 20, 2011, 03:28:13 PM
Holy $#!% Matt....that last shot is great ;D

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 20, 2011, 03:54:26 PM
Holy $#!% Matt....that last shot is great ;D



Thanks Paul.  One more for good measure!
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on February 20, 2011, 04:30:43 PM
Outtasight Matt, one of the best I've ever seen in pictures.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on February 20, 2011, 04:51:52 PM
Here is my own experiment for today. I've talked in the past about hybridizing the Roman and North American-style pizza- and today I did something about it.

The formula: 100% flour (50% bread, 50% AP), 70% hydro, .25 IDY, 2% salt, 3.6% oil.

The regimen: Mixed everything together in stand mixer. About 2 minutes of hand-kneading (push-and-fold) followed by 10 min rigenero, repeated 2 more times, final 1 minute hand-kneading.

The rise: 4 additional hours in an 80 degree room.

Topped with medium amounts of: sauce, cheese, pepperoni, mushrooms, and green peppers. Baked in steel pan on pre-heated stone at the lowest rack, at 525 for 13 minutes. A minute more would have made it better, but whatever.

Results: The outside of this pizza was pliant and chewy, not crispy, and generally tasted like a North American delivery pie from a good mom-and-pop joint. The slices even flopped a bit. The interior had a competently open crumb (which can be made out in the very blurry pic); it was fluffy, but had more chew and heft than the recent pies I've been making at around 87-88% hydro. Very nice taste as well, although I wish the bottom could have been spot-charred. Highly digestible (no gutbuster here!).

Conclusion: I will definitely be doing this again.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 20, 2011, 06:39:42 PM
Best one by far thus far. :)



Matt,

Your crumb shots look great!  :)  Do you mind telling what formula you used and your workflow to achieve such good results. How many days did you ferment your dough and what kind of yeast or starter did you use?

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 20, 2011, 06:41:49 PM
Here is my own experiment for today. I've talked in the past about hybridizing the Roman and North American-style pizza- and today I did something about it.

The formula: 100% flour (50% bread, 50% AP), 70% hydro, .25 IDY, 2% salt, 3.6% oil.

The regimen: Mixed everything together in stand mixer. About 2 minutes of hand-kneading (push-and-fold) followed by 10 min rigenero, repeated 2 more times, final 1 minute hand-kneading.

The rise: 4 additional hours in an 80 degree room.

Topped with medium amounts of: sauce, cheese, pepperoni, mushrooms, and green peppers. Baked in steel pan on pre-heated stone at the lowest rack, at 525 for 13 minutes. A minute more would have made it better, but whatever.

Results: The outside of this pizza was pliant and chewy, not crispy, and generally tasted like a North American delivery pie from a good mom-and-pop joint. The slices even flopped a bit. The interior had a competently open crumb (which can be made out in the very blurry pic); it was fluffy, but had more chew and heft than the recent pies I've been making at around 87-88% hydro. Very nice taste as well, although I wish the bottom could have been spot-charred. Highly digestible (no gutbuster here!).

Conclusion: I will definitely be doing this again.

JLP

Jose,

Your hybrid Roman and North American style looks great, too.  :) I am glad you achieved the results you wanted.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 20, 2011, 07:05:45 PM
Outtasight Matt, one of the best I've ever seen in pictures.

Thanks Jose. Great job on yours as well.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 20, 2011, 07:15:30 PM
Matt,

Your crumb shots look great!  :)  Do you mind telling what formula you used and your workflow to achieve such good results. How many days did you ferment your dough and what kind of yeast or starter did you use?

Norma

Thank Norma. I used the exact same formula as before. The time I went with a 60/40 organic spring wheat/semola & upped the hydration to 78%. I used a combo of .7% IDY & 5% of total water starter. Again I added some malt extract & some strutto.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 20, 2011, 07:30:42 PM
Matt - You are outdoing Pizzarium. Sensational work. I think you just made up my mind - I am getting a spiral mixer.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on February 20, 2011, 08:46:37 PM
Thanks Norma and Matt.

BTW Norma I didn't get a chance to comment on your last bake- very nice work, those pies are definitely in the professional-level league.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 20, 2011, 08:52:25 PM
Matt - You are outdoing Pizzarium. Sensational work. I think you just made up my mind - I am getting a spiral mixer.

John

Thanks alot John. Go for it, believe me you won't regret it.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 21, 2011, 07:50:52 AM
Jose,

Thanks for you kind words after my pie last week.   :)

Norma

I started another attempt for the Pizzarium style pizza on Saturday by mixing a poolish and letting it come to a small bubble.  I then put it into the refrigerator until Sunday afternoon.  I am trying this experiment along the lines of my preferment Lehmann dough for one dough ball.  I am only using the amount of poolish I use for one dough ball, but upping the hydration and oil.  I want to see if using KASL in the poolish and formula and adding just IDY might work to make a Pizzarium pizza. 

When I made two doughs for Reinhart pizzas the other day, I saw how well a flat beater can mix wet dough and form gluten, so I tried that method for mixing this dough.  As can be seen on the formula I am posting, these were the steps I did for this dough.  The flat beater on my Kitchen Aid mixer did a good job of mixing this dough, before I finally used the dough hook to finish the dough.

The pictures are first the poolish with the gluten development before adding it to the water, the next picture is of the finished dough yesterday and the third picture is top and bottom this morning.  I am going to do the bake at market tomorrow, if it doesnít snow too much in our area.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 21, 2011, 07:53:16 AM
other pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: scottserena on February 21, 2011, 12:48:35 PM
I tried to re-create the potato pizzas we had in Rome. No crumb shots, we ate it way too fast.

It was very good (my wives favorite), Yukon gold potatoes, yellow onion, a hint of rosemary.

Also made a Margarita Pizza for the kids.

 
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 21, 2011, 12:59:21 PM

scottserena,

Wow, your pies look fantastic!  Your Yukon gold potatoes, yellow onion, with a hint of rosemary sound delicious.   :)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: forzaroma on February 21, 2011, 01:06:05 PM
Scott which dough formula did you use? What flour and is this in home oven?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: scottserena on February 21, 2011, 01:18:45 PM
Scott which dough formula did you use? What flour and is this in home oven?

1000 gr. of flour (30% KAAP, 70% KABF)
700 gr. water
40 gr extra virgin olive oil
20 gr sea salt
7 gr IDY

Four series of stretch and fold with 15 minute rest periods. In the fridge for 24 hours (48 hours is much, much better but I didn't have that much time this go around)  2 hour rise in a lightly oiled pan. Place pans directly on pre-heated pizza stones, 475 degrees convection, about 20-25 minutes turning every 10 minutes.

If you are interested I slice the potatoes very thin with a mandolin and soak them for two hours in salted water. Drain very good, a then dry with paper towels. Mix potato and onions in EVOO and black pepper. Top the pizza and add the rosemary on top.

The soaking in salt water softens the potato so they cook right on top of the pizza (credit to Jim Lahey, Sullivan Street Bakery)
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Cass on February 21, 2011, 01:23:59 PM
Not sure if my picture will post, but.....my try:



Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: forzaroma on February 21, 2011, 01:34:34 PM
1000 gr. of flour (30% KAAP, 70% KABF)
700 gr. water
40 gr extra virgin olive oil
20 gr sea salt
7 gr IDY

Four series of stretch and fold with 15 minute rest periods. In the fridge for 24 hours (48 hours is much, much better but I didn't have that much time this go around)  2 hour rise in a lightly oiled pan. Place pans directly on pre-heated pizza stones, 475 degrees convection, about 20-25 minutes turning every 10 minutes.

If you are interested I slice the potatoes very thin with a mandolin and soak them for two hours in salted water. Drain very good, a then dry with paper towels. Mix potato and onions in EVOO and black pepper. Top the pizza and add the rosemary on top.

The soaking in salt water softens the potato so they cook right on top of the pizza (credit to Jim Lahey, Sullivan Street Bakery)

Awesome thanks!!! Do u feel the pies were thin like al teglio in Rome?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: doughboy55 on February 21, 2011, 01:48:49 PM
Thanks Paul.  One more for good measure!

I'm in awe that crumb looks amazing (not much of a compliment coming from a noobie but still looks incredible). How did it taste?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 21, 2011, 02:22:32 PM
I'm in awe that crumb looks amazing (not much of a compliment coming from a noobie but still looks incredible). How did it taste?

Thanks. They were very good & very light.  We reheated them today for lunch & were just as good as yesterday.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 21, 2011, 05:13:43 PM
Not sure if my picture will post, but.....my try:


Cass,

Great to hear you are joining all of us on this thread.  Your pie looks good.  :)  What kind of formula did you try?  Your picture of your pie looks good.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Cass on February 21, 2011, 06:23:38 PM
Cass,

Great to hear you are joining all of us on this thread.  Your pie looks good.  :)  What kind of formula did you try?  Your picture of your pie looks good.

Norma
Thanks Norma! 

Honestly I don't post much because of the picture/attachment issue on this board, but this was my first re size that actually worked!    :-D

This was a same day thought of it in the morning dough.

100%  All Trumps
68% Water (Plus a very scientific, precisely calculated dollop of starter)
.30 IDY
2% Sea Salt
4% Light Olive Oil

This was hand mixed with an autolyse of 30 minutes, then four folds at 15 minute intervals. Counter rest for a few hours. Stretched and into an oiled pan for a few minute par bake, topped and baked at 475.

:)
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 21, 2011, 06:34:59 PM
Thanks Norma! 

Honestly I don't post much because of the picture/attachment issue on this board, but this was my first re size that actually worked!    :-D

This was a same day thought of it in the morning dough.

100%  All Trumps
68% Water (Plus a very scientific, precisely calculated dollop of starter)
.30 IDY
2% Sea Salt
4% Light Olive Oil

This was hand mixed with an autolyse of 30 minutes, then four folds at 15 minute intervals. Counter rest for a few hours. Stretched and into an oiled pan for a few minute par bake, topped and baked at 475.

:)

Cass,

Glad to hear your resize worked. You got great results for a one day dough!  :) Thanks for giving the details of what methods you used and your formula.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 22, 2011, 03:38:02 PM

The choice between art school or Science (pizza)

http://www.dissapore.com/cucina/la-scelta-tra-liceo-artistico-o-scientifico-della-pizza/

Outside the Enclave Napoletana, true sentinel of tradition, have crossed the kingdoms surrounding stages, Roma in particular. After the introduction of the leavening process, the Roman pizza, a low time and scrocchiarella (derivation of the Matza , the Jewish bread) has become increasingly similar to the Neapolitan as we know it.

Returning to our challenge, the pizza is especially large numbers and infinite need for replication regardless of the place where it is made. However, the replicability belongs to Science, finds that the rules, encoding processes and enables them again.

But science does not explain everything, there remain some unclear points illuminated only by the experience of pizza. Even the equipment that should help us to understand the techniques of flour and dough is very evolved, and the amilografi farinograph Brabender Chopin or go back to the last century.

To this I would still be in doubt whether to address the child from the Liceo Scientifico aspiring pizza chef or an artistic one. I do not think art can be any or all of the knowledge, talent and discipline are perfect pizza.

Want an example?

Check out the video that shows a student of Eastern Gabriele Bonci , the "Michelangelo" of Roman pizza. Take the case maniacal attention to each step, or the use of a line to divide the various areas of seasoning. And repeat after me: art, science, replicability numbers ...

A lesson in pizza Gabriele Bonci (Volume 1)

http://www.dissapore.com/cucina/a-lezione-di-pizza-da-gabriele-bonci-volume-1/

" Practice hands, feel under the fingers, STATEC inside the dough . "
GB said during a lesson on pizza in the new direction of Roman worship Tricolore , and since the key is just to feel, touch and is' in the dough, we already know that watching is not enough. But we hope will help. First you need to choose the flour and wheat flour Bonci prefer organic stone milled natural because natural stone runs slowly while maintaining the flour and cold thereby protecting all the trace elements of the grain. Yes, because the flour should not be considered a product of belief but a fresh, alive. The ingredients for a kilo of flour (type 00 or 0) are: 700g of water (minimum), 7 g dried yeast, 40g of olive oil, 20g of salt. Gabriele Bonci recommends using at least a 10% wholemeal flour to absorb a lot of water, can make the dough very soft. You can also use a flour type 1 - Buratto. Then we need: a large bowl, another little one, a spoon, a parannanza and strength to not give up when we are faced with a truly strange and mushy magma. The secret of the sweetness and digestibility of pasta water is that we have mix and Bonci swears that you can also get a 100% of flour weight. The mix that you see in the video contains 90% water. But he is "Er Mago".

" Handle the dough with your hands, massage it, treat it gently . "
Regenerate after we have to wait again, this time to 24 hours as suggested by GB and when we remove the dough from the fridge we have to deal with the production, which depends much of the success of all the work. On the age issue of the height of the peak, Gabriele Bonci espirme is a resounding: "Do as you please." Slim will become more crisp, high to keep a certain softness, and if you want them just like him roll out the dough evenly, leaving a certain thickness and pressing the edges. As regards the technique is the caster, who explains it like a blanket, who crushes it with a rolling pin and then there are people who puts his heart and fingertips. Pasta is a mysterious creature who rebels against violent treatment and rejects those that are too delicate and then, over time, we must take the force measurements and movements. The newest video explains how to do that by saying, you know, keeps the proverbial distance.


A lesson in pizza Gabriele Bonci (Volume 2: cooking and seasoning)

http://www.dissapore.com/cucina/a-lezione-di-pizza-da-gabriele-bonci-volume-2-cottura-e-condimenti/

In volume one of this little tutorial on pizza Gabriele Bonci, the Michelangelo of Roman pizza, we had left there where it all begins. Nice mix, funny regenerate, then spread the magic but the moment in which our work takes the form really begins here, in the oven at home.


The oven
The use of common household appliance is more complex than it seems. Before cooking, we should know exactly the furnace and to do that, Bonci recommends that the first time the duration of cooking in order to have a reference for subsequent experiments. Then send the oven at full power in "above and below" and lay the pan (preferably thin) at the bottom. After a quarter of an hour, check the condition of observing the bottom of the pizza cooking, must be visibly colored. At that point you can pass the pan on the middle floor and cook, usually for half the time taken until now.

The loaf of wheat
Other than pizza and focaccia (sequence No. 1 and 2 in the photo above). Bonci has used a wheat flour milled stone and broke it re-let it rise in the pan. In short: After mixing the ingredients as the pizza (for a kilo of flour: about 700g water, 70g oil, 25g salt, 7g of dry yeast in beer) let it sit for about 12/18 hours. At this point, stretch and work the dough with your hands in a pan and thoroughly oiled before it rise again until doubled, add seasonings embedding the vegetables in the pasta. Cooking, then, follows the same dynamics of pizza. Bonci has made some buns and conquered me forever with that of summer vegetables and provolone (No. 2).

Scenes from the End of the World | Look how small the Pizzarium Gabriele Bonci

http://www.dissapore.com/primo-piano/scene-dalla-fine-del-mondo-guardate-come-ridotto-il-pizzarium-di-gabriele-bonci/

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: sherm1018 on February 24, 2011, 10:17:49 AM
Thanks to everyone's photos and recipes I will finally try my first "Pizzarium" style dough today.  I received my Mulino flour yesterday and have already made my poolish.  I can't wait to see how this flour compares to KABF and Caputo.

Bests to Everyone !

Scott
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 24, 2011, 10:40:56 AM
Thanks to everyone's photos and recipes I will finally try my first "Pizzarium" style dough today.  I received my Mulino flour yesterday and have already made my poolish.  I can't wait to see how this flour compares to KABF and Caputo.

Bests to Everyone !

Scott

Scott - Which Mulino flour are your using?

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 24, 2011, 10:52:43 AM
Thanks to everyone's photos and recipes I will finally try my first "Pizzarium" style dough today.  I received my Mulino flour yesterday and have already made my poolish.  I can't wait to see how this flour compares to KABF and Caputo.

Bests to Everyone !

Scott

Scott,

Best of luck with your Pizzarium style pizza!  I also am interested how how Mulino flour makes dough. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: sherm1018 on February 24, 2011, 12:59:12 PM
Scott - Which Mulino flour are your using?

John

John,  It's the "Enkir" type flour.  This came from Eataly in NYC and is labled as the tipo "0" flour.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: sherm1018 on February 24, 2011, 01:00:18 PM
Scott,

Best of luck with your Pizzarium style pizza!  I also am interested how how Mulino flour makes dough. 

Norma


Norma,

Thanks for your support... I will be sure to document the final product 


Scott
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 24, 2011, 01:16:23 PM
John,  It's the "Enkir" type flour.  This came from Eataly in NYC and is labled as the tipo "0" flour.

Very cool - are you mixing it with a softer flour? From the MM website, the Enkir is between 18-24% protein.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: sherm1018 on February 24, 2011, 02:08:01 PM
Very cool - are you mixing it with a softer flour? From the MM website, the Enkir is between 18-24% protein.

John

John,

After watching the 4 videos of Bonci, I am going to make the first batch with just the MM flour by itself.  Unless I've misunderstood, it appears that he uses this flour "straight" not mixed?  If this is wrong please let me know.  Depending on the outcome, that will determine if I "cut" the next batch.  I used to own a pizzeria here in Texas and we always used "all trumps" which if I recall is about 18% protein which produced a chewy NYC style crust.  My first impression of the MM flour is it's VERY soft which makes it hard to believe it's high protein content, but then again that's why I'm here... to learn.  :)

Let me know about the mix of flour.

Thanks !

Scott
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 24, 2011, 02:42:52 PM
John,

After watching the 4 videos of Bonci, I am going to make the first batch with just the MM flour by itself.  Unless I've misunderstood, it appears that he uses this flour "straight" not mixed?  If this is wrong please let me know.  Depending on the outcome, that will determine if I "cut" the next batch.  I used to own a pizzeria here in Texas and we always used "all trumps" which if I recall is about 18% protein which produced a chewy NYC style crust.  My first impression of the MM flour is it's VERY soft which makes it hard to believe it's high protein content, but then again that's why I'm here... to learn.  :)

Let me know about the mix of flour.

Thanks !

Scott

Scott - I believe the flour used in those videos is the Type 1 "Burrata", which is a lower protein flour in the 11-12% range - but I could be wrong. All Trumps, depending on the specific blend, is in the 14% range. The Enkir flour is a much higher protein, but euro flour protein is not the same as North American varieties. The Type 0 refers to the fineness of the grind. I believe that there was a post earlier in the thread about Bonci using a percentage of the Enkir flour in a new recipe he is trying out. As for using 100% Enkir, I am not really sure what the outcome will be. But I am looking forward to seeing your results.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: doughboy55 on February 24, 2011, 02:56:17 PM
I'm excited to see your results, keep us posted.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: sherm1018 on February 24, 2011, 04:25:50 PM
Scott - I believe the flour used in those videos is the Type 1 "Burrata", which is a lower protein flour in the 11-12% range - but I could be wrong. All Trumps, depending on the specific blend, is in the 14% range. The Enkir flour is a much higher protein, but euro flour protein is not the same as North American varieties. The Type 0 refers to the fineness of the grind. I believe that there was a post earlier in the thread about Bonci using a percentage of the Enkir flour in a new recipe he is trying out. As for using 100% Enkir, I am not really sure what the outcome will be. But I am looking forward to seeing your results.

John

Thanks John.... I'll let you know good, bad and of course ugly  ;D
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: pizzablogger on February 24, 2011, 05:58:57 PM
Matthew, that last shot of the last batch you posted pics of looks mouthwatering!  :D
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 24, 2011, 06:13:54 PM
Matthew, that last shot of the last batch you posted pics of looks mouthwatering!  :D

Thanks Kelly.  I really appreciate it. I'm mixing up another batch this weekend, this time using my blue steels pans that were on back order forever.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 25, 2011, 09:27:28 AM
This is the dough I had started last Saturday by making the poolish and then incorporating the poolish into the final dough last Sunday with the pictures at Reply 581 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg127806.html#msg127806  Since I didnít get to bake this dough on Tuesday, I decided to watch it over a few more days.  Last evening there were a couple of big bubbles on the top of the dough and I broke them.  This morning another bubble is forming on top of the dough.  I am going to reball this dough and then bake whenever I think it might be ready today.  I have no idea how this dough is going to bake.

Pictures of dough this morning.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 25, 2011, 02:59:21 PM
I did the bake on the dough posted in my last post, early this afternoon.  Although the crust did taste very good from the longer cold ferment, the crumb structure isn't as open as some of my attempts.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 25, 2011, 03:01:29 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 25, 2011, 03:15:46 PM
I think the crumb looks fantastic Norma. I could only hope for such a crumb. What was your thickness factor on this one? It is becoming readily apparent that my bakes do not produce the height you and the rest are achieving.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: forzaroma on February 25, 2011, 03:27:43 PM
These pizzas are sicilian style am I correct? When I think of Pizza al taglio I think of thin pizzas that are foldable am I correct in that?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 25, 2011, 03:33:27 PM
I think the crumb looks fantastic Norma. I could only hope for such a crumb. What was your thickness factor on this one? It is becoming readily apparent that my bakes do not produce the height you and the rest are achieving.

John

John,

My thickness factor was .15 and the hydration I used was 83%.  I posted my formula awhile back if you want me to find it.  Thanks for your kind words about the crumb, but it wasn't like my other crumbs.  I need to get a steel pan to try this kind of type of pizza.  It seems since my home oven can't get to the temperatures my deck oven at market does, I can get a better crumb at market.  I am not sure of that though. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 25, 2011, 03:35:11 PM
These pizzas are sicilian style am I correct? When I think of Pizza al taglio I think of thin pizzas that are foldable am I correct in that?

forzaroma,

If you look back though this thread at all the pictures, you can get an idea what a real Pizzarium pizza looks like.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: forzaroma on February 25, 2011, 03:40:50 PM
Your pizza looks great Norma i was just asking what we are going for when attempting the real deal Roman pizzas.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 25, 2011, 03:54:07 PM
Your pizza looks great Norma i was just asking what we are going for when attempting the real deal Roman pizzas.

I think Matt can answer this better, but yes, you could call this sicilian pizza - but it is also very roman. The style we are trying to replicate is particular to Pizzarium, which is in Rome. Pizza in teglia is pizza cooked in a pan, pizza al taglio is pizza by the slice. Sometimes it is thin, sometimes not - and that is where it starts to get confusing. Pizza al taglio is sometimes cooked directly on the deck, and pizza bianca is just pizza in teglia/al taglio with oilve oil, salt, and maybe rosemary. All in all, it is a roman way of cooking pizza that was probably borrowed from the sicilian tradition - which makes no sense because sicilians think romans can't cook, and vice versa.

Check out the post on Farinella for more info on the thinner version of pizza al taglio.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: forzaroma on February 25, 2011, 03:55:02 PM
Perfect!
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 25, 2011, 04:44:26 PM
I think Matt can answer this better, but yes, you could call this sicilian pizza - but it is also very roman. The style we are trying to replicate is particular to Pizzarium, which is in Rome. Pizza in teglia is pizza cooked in a pan, pizza al taglio is pizza by the slice. Sometimes it is thin, sometimes not - and that is where it starts to get confusing. Pizza al taglio is sometimes cooked directly on the deck, and pizza bianca is just pizza in teglia/al taglio with oilve oil, salt, and maybe rosemary. All in all, it is a roman way of cooking pizza that was probably borrowed from the sicilian tradition - which makes no sense because sicilians think romans can't cook, and vice versa.

Check out the post on Farinella for more info on the thinner version of pizza al taglio.

John

Right on John.  I think we're all a bit high on the TF,  We should be shooting for around .12 & getting the height from the spring.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: SinoChef on February 25, 2011, 06:25:16 PM


Hello all,

Do any of you oil your pans just a bit? I want to get the crumb in this recipe right. But I would like to get the crust like the Pizza Hut's "pan pizza" one back in the States. Fried, or a little greasy on the bottom. 

Thanks,

Sino
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: doughboy55 on February 25, 2011, 06:39:48 PM
Another amazing crust Norma!
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 25, 2011, 08:08:11 PM
Very Nice Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 25, 2011, 08:18:25 PM
Matt, doughboy55, and forzaroma,

Thanks for the kind words, but I think my some of my other attempts were better.  I donít know if where I made my mistakes were from letting the dough cold ferment too long, not having a steel pan, or not having a high enough oven temperature.  I liked the Focaccia col Formaggio di Recco I made yesterday much better than the pie I made today. That pie just melted in my mouth and the dough stretched out so easily.

SinoChef,

I do oil my pans slightly.

Matt,

What TF do you think we should try?  Have you decided on a thickness factor for your next bake?

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 26, 2011, 03:23:36 AM

Matt,

What TF do you think we should try?  Have you decided on a thickness factor for your next bake?

Norma

.12ish & no or very very little oil in the pan.  I'm going to mix up a batch later this morning for Sunday.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 26, 2011, 08:32:04 AM
.12ish & no or very very little oil in the pan.  I'm going to mix up a batch later this morning for Sunday.

Matt

Thanks!  What do you think will happen if no oil is added to the pan?  I would think the bottom wouldn't brown at all.  I don't have a blue steel pan, so I really don't know, but have tried my deep-dish steel pan before, but I only lightly oil it.  Will be waiting to see how your blue steel pan works out.  Best of luck!

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 26, 2011, 08:48:41 AM
Thanks!  What do you think will happen if no oil is added to the pan?  I would think the bottom wouldn't brown at all.  I don't have a blue steel pan, so I really don't know, but have tried my deep-dish steel pan before, but I only lightly oil it.  Will be waiting to see how your blue steel pan works out.  Best of luck!

Norma

Hi Norma,
I don't ever add any oil to the bottom of the pan unless I'm making Sicilian.  The bottom does brown nicely & doesn't "fry" like it does with Sicilian.  As it's my 1st time using the blue steel pans I will add an extremely like coating of oil with a paper towel.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 26, 2011, 08:59:47 AM
Hi Norma,
I don't ever add any oil to the bottom of the pan unless I'm making Sicilian.  The bottom does brown nicely & doesn't "fry" like it does with Sicilian.  As it's my 1st time using the blue steel pans I will add an extremely like coating of oil with a paper towel.

Matt

Matt,

Thanks for explaining about the oil and how your pies do brown nicely without it.  :) I must be using a wrong kind of pan.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 26, 2011, 09:07:03 AM
Matt,

Thanks for explaining about the oil and how your pies do brown nicely without it.  :) I must be using a wrong kind of pan.

Norma

Not necessarily.  I'm not sure how you stretch the dough, but if you use the method demonstrated by Gabriele you should have enough semola in the base to prevent any sticking without the use of any oil.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 26, 2011, 09:12:41 AM
Not necessarily.  I'm not sure how you stretch the dough, but if you use the method demonstrated by Gabriele you should have enough semola in the base to prevent any sticking without the use of any oil.

Matt

Matt,

My dough never is sticky when I put it in the pan.  It is like a regular pizza dough, but softer, with more bubbles in the dough.  I will have to try your method (without oil) the next time I make an attempt.  I try to use the method that Gabriele demonstrated for stretching the dough.

Thanks!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 26, 2011, 10:01:25 AM
Matt,

My dough never is sticky when I put it in the pan.  It is like a regular pizza dough, but softer, with more bubbles in the dough.  I will have to try your method (without oil) the next time I make an attempt.  I try to use the method that Gabriele demonstrated for stretching the dough.

Thanks!  :)

Norma

Disclaimer:  I will not be held responsible if the dough sticks to your pan. Please proceed with extreme caution.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on February 26, 2011, 10:17:14 AM
I personally use oil, but only enough to evenly coat the bottom of the pan with the slightest possible film (I use a paint-type brush to do this). The result in terms of browning and other characteristics is pretty much indistinguishable from a direct bake.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 26, 2011, 10:35:22 AM
Disclaimer:  I will not be held responsible if the dough sticks to your pan. Please proceed with extreme caution.

Matt,

lol  :-D, I have had many failed attempts before, so it doesn't bother me if I have one more.  At least I will get to know my pans better. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on February 26, 2011, 01:43:56 PM
I just finished making the following dough:

Flour: 100% (same mix as last time)
Water: 75%
IDY: .35%
Salt: 2%
Oil: 3.25%

Incorporated ingredients in mixer until a smooth mass was formed. 4 stretch-and-folds, 2 min. push-and fold; 15 min. rest, 1 min. push-and-fold; another 15 min. rest with another min. push-and-fold. This yielded a smooth dough ball that was soft and supple, but very tenacious, recovering its shape within seconds even when poked.

It is to rise in the fridge for about 24 hours and when ready baked at 450.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 26, 2011, 03:42:17 PM
Jose - I have the same dough in the fridge right now, except using CY and starter. Same workflow too. Looking forward to the bake tomorrow, but I chickened out and went with .15 TF.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 26, 2011, 03:48:11 PM
Jose - I have the same dough in the fridge right now, except using CY and starter. Same workflow too. Looking forward to the bake tomorrow, but I chickened out and went with .15 TF.

John

I'll take one for the team.  I've got a .12 going & 2 .11's that will be baked atop each other & then separated.  I'm also going to use some dough to make a couple of baguettes & a cinnamon raisin roll.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on February 26, 2011, 10:21:58 PM
Jose - I have the same dough in the fridge right now, except using CY and starter. Same workflow too. Looking forward to the bake tomorrow, but I chickened out and went with .15 TF.

John

Mine will be .14 TF. I think I stopped just short of over-working the dough with the workflow I used.

With respect to the .TF issue in general, Gabriele explained in one the articles that Norma linked that the thicker ones are softer and the thinner ones crunchier. He also suggests there's no single optimum standard thickness for this style. I notice his own pies seem to vary in thickness within a range of about two .TF points judging from pics I've seen of them.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 26, 2011, 10:34:21 PM
Jose,

I noticed in the different attempts I did, that higher TF also gave me softer crusts.  I still havenít decided if the softer crust came from my work flow, higher bake temperatures, oil in pan, or a what kind of pan I used. Will be interested to see how everyones bakes go.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 27, 2011, 07:17:08 AM
Mine will be .14 TF. I think I stopped just short of over-working the dough with the workflow I used.
JLP

Excellent - Today is show and tell and we have three bakes in the queue, .12, .14., and .15. Norma, are you in? My guests got to pick the toppings for this evening, so I have a buffalo chicken pizza in teglia to make (it seems like those words should not be put together).

Isn't it amazing how a very sticky, super high hydration dough can turn into a supple, taught ball in a manner of minutes just by folding it onto itself a few times between some rests?

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 27, 2011, 09:00:41 AM
Excellent - Today is show and tell and we have three bakes in the queue, .12, .14., and .15. Norma, are you in? My guests got to pick the toppings for this evening, so I have a buffalo chicken pizza in teglia to make (it seems like those words should not be put together).

Isn't it amazing how a very sticky, super high hydration dough can turn into a supple, taught ball in a manner of minutes just by folding it onto itself a few times between some rests?

John

John,

No, I am not in for another attempt today. I am still trying to figure out what went wrong in my last bake. I think I need to get a blue steel pan before I try another attempt.  I am going to be playing around with the Focaccia di Recco.  That is a much easier dough to understand and only a matter of hours from beginning to end bake.  :-D

I will be anxiously awaiting how all of your bakes go. One of my favorite kinds of pizza toppings is buffalo chicken.  Wish I could be there to taste a slice.  :) I agree, it is amazing how this highly sticky dough can transform into a supple dough.

Best of luck to you, Jose, and Matt!  :chef: :chef: :chef:

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on February 27, 2011, 04:53:01 PM
Today's effort was a semi-fail that still made for a good meal, and from which I took away some good lessons.

The first lesson concerns the importance of evenly distributing the gas throughout the dough when forming it. In particular among other things, I didn't press this one all the way out to the edges. The result was the formation of large peaks and a wildly uneven dough and crumb, as can be seen in the attached pics.

The second lesson concerns oil. This pie was baked at 450 for 20 minutes, and at that rate, 3.25% oil just wasn't enough to stop the bottom and the ample cornicone from coming out more like baguettes than pizza, with a thick crunchy-chewy outer crust. The pie tasted very nice, though, and was very digestible.

Next time around I'm going to make even rows of indents with my fingers across the entire surface of the dough, leaving none of it untouched and allowing no large bubbles to form. I'm also going to use at least 4% oil for a 450 bake in the future.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 27, 2011, 06:02:50 PM
Here's .12

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 27, 2011, 07:22:40 PM
Here's .12

Matt

Your .12 has more spring than my .15. Looks like the new pans worked beautifully for you.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 27, 2011, 07:27:41 PM
The first lesson concerns the importance of evenly distributing the gas throughout the dough when forming it.

Jose - I have difficulty with this as well. I am almost ready to start forming the dough on a peel and sliding it into the pan. Every time I think I have it even, the flip over my arm to move the dough into the pan messes everything up. But it looks like you still got a beautiful crumb.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 27, 2011, 08:20:29 PM
Jose, Matt and John,

All your pizzas look very good!  :)  Great oven spring in all of them.  Is there anything any of you did different in your bakes today?  I am just trying to learn from all of your doughs and bakes.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 28, 2011, 06:17:05 AM
Your .12 has more spring than my .15. Looks like the new pans worked beautifully for you.

John

John,
Looks really good bud.  I cheated a tad & gave it about a half hour pan rise until my guests arrived.  The 2 double layer was also a big hit & really puffed up, Next time I'm going to drop to .10 ish.  The new pans are awesome.  I only used one of the new pans for the pizza only.  I took a chance & used an extremely light layer of oil & it almost stuck to the bottom.  I started to sweat for a second but I used a spatula & was able to get it to come up nicely.  I got a bit paranoid after that so I seasoned them all.  Did your pans develop a brownish crust after the initial use?

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 28, 2011, 06:21:16 AM
Today's effort was a semi-fail that still made for a good meal, and from which I took away some good lessons.

The first lesson concerns the importance of evenly distributing the gas throughout the dough when forming it. In particular among other things, I didn't press this one all the way out to the edges. The result was the formation of large peaks and a wildly uneven dough and crumb, as can be seen in the attached pics.

The second lesson concerns oil. This pie was baked at 450 for 20 minutes, and at that rate, 3.25% oil just wasn't enough to stop the bottom and the ample cornicone from coming out more like baguettes than pizza, with a thick crunchy-chewy outer crust. The pie tasted very nice, though, and was very digestible.

Next time around I'm going to make even rows of indents with my fingers across the entire surface of the dough, leaving none of it untouched and allowing no large bubbles to form. I'm also going to use at least 4% oil for a 450 bake in the future.

JLP

Jose,
Looks really nice.  If you want to change the texture drastically do a 50/50 bread flour/semola, decrease the oil to 2.5% & add 2.5% of strutto (Lard).  These changes will give you the exact texture that you're after.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 28, 2011, 06:41:42 AM
Did your pans develop a brownish crust after the initial use?

Matt

Matt - Yes, but I scraped it off with a plastic spatula. The next bake there was hardly any brown crust left, due to the dough not sticking anymore. I would assume after many uses the pan will become essentially non-stick.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 28, 2011, 06:46:43 AM
Matt - Yes, but I scraped it off with a plastic spatula. The next bake there was hardly any brown crust left, due to the dough not sticking anymore. I would assume after many uses the pan will become essentially non-stick.

John

Great.  Thanks!

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 28, 2011, 09:14:47 AM
Jose, Matt and John,

All your pizzas look very good!  :)  Great oven spring in all of them.  Is there anything any of you did different in your bakes today?  I am just trying to learn from all of your doughs and bakes.

Norma

Norma - Below is my formula on the last bake:

Flour (100%) <- 75% KABF, 25% Giusto's Organic Ultimate Performer
Water (78%)
Salt (2%) <- this is too low, and I am going to a minimum of 2.5 in the future
CY (.7%)
Oil (3%)
Starter (4% flour)

Autolyse without salt and 10% of the formula water, then squeezed in. Four stretch and folds with 10 minute rests in between. 24 hours in the fridge, balled, 6 hours proof. Around 8 minutes at 500 on the bottom rack, then topped plus another 5-8 minutes on top rack. Next time I am either upping the CY to .1 or going with 48 hours in the fridge.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 28, 2011, 11:58:59 AM
Norma - Below is my formula on the last bake:

Flour (100%) <- 75% KABF, 25% Giusto's Organic Ultimate Performer
Water (78%)
Salt (2%) <- this is too low, and I am going to a minimum of 2.5 in the future
CY (.7%)
Oil (3%)
Starter (4% flour)

Autolyse without salt and 10% of the formula water, then squeezed in. Four stretch and folds with 10 minute rests in between. 24 hours in the fridge, balled, 6 hours proof. Around 8 minutes at 500 on the bottom rack, then topped plus another 5-8 minutes on top rack. Next time I am either upping the CY to .1 or going with 48 hours in the fridge.

John

John,

Thanks a lot of the detailed response on what formula you used, what kind of flours you used,  your workflow with the dough and your baking protocol.  Do you have a reason for wanting the salt amount upped?  How was your bottom crust and also was your pie light?  Sorry to be asking all these questions, but I am trying to learn how this type of pizza is really supposed to be since I have never tasted a real Pizzarium pizza.  Your pie did really look great!  :) I wonder how long Bonci really ferments his doughs for Pizzarium. 

I am not going to try another attempt until either I buy a blue steel pan or a person I know sells me one.  I can see the difference you and Matt are having with your blue steel pans.  I donít think any of my pans do this type of pie justice.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 28, 2011, 12:16:04 PM
John,

Thanks a lot of the detailed response on what formula you used, what kind of flours you used,  your workflow with the dough and your baking protocol.  Do you have a reason for wanting the salt amount upped?  How was your bottom crust and also was your pie light?  Sorry to be asking all these questions, but I am trying to learn how this type of pizza is really supposed to be since I have never tasted a real Pizzarium pizza.  Your pie did really look great!  :) I wonder how long Bonci really ferments his doughs for Pizzarium. 

I am not going to try another attempt until either I buy a blue steel pan or a person I know sells me one.  I can see the difference you and Matt are having with your blue steel pans.  I donít think any of my pans do this type of pie justice.

Norma

Norma,
I don't think that you really need a blue steel pan to continue.  Up until yesterday I was using a heavy guage non stick aluminum sheet pan with very good results.  The double layer pizza in pic 1 & 2 was made using the non stick pan & the other pizza was made using the blue steel pan.  Was there a difference?  Absolutely.  Did the pizza taste any different? Nope.
Keep going, you're doing really well.  Actually, using a non stick pan will allow you the opportunity to make a pizza without using any oil in the pan.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 28, 2011, 12:29:58 PM
Norma,
I don't think that you really need a blue steel pan to continue.  Up until yesterday I was using a heavy guage non stick aluminum sheet pan with very good results.  The double layer pizza in pic 1 & 2 was made using the non stick pan & the other pizza was made using the blue steel pan.  Was there a difference?  Absolutely.  Did the pizza taste any different? Nope.
Keep going, you're doing really well.  Actually, using a non stick pan will allow you the opportunity to make a pizza without using any oil in the pan.

Matt

Matt,

I surely donít have this kind of pizza down pat, and can see with each attempt there is something different, whether it is oven spring, bottom crust, lightness, crumb structure or other things.  I was still trying to make up my mind what to try next, but when I saw you and John getting such great results using a blue steel pan, it made me also want to try one to see if any of my attempts would be different. 

Thanks for telling me what kind of pans you used yesterday.  I think I could use my deep-dish steel pan without oil, because it is well seasoned, but since I really donít know how a Pizzarium Pizza is supposed to taste like, I am not sure if I want to make another attempt right now.  I am still trying to process all this information from your bake, John bake, and also Joseís bake.  I think I might have had my best bakes with a combination of durum flour and another flour and also using CY.  One of these days I am also going to try my Ischia starter.

Thanks for saying I am doing well, but this type of pizza is hard to understand for me.

Thanks for your help,

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 28, 2011, 12:46:19 PM
Do you have a reason for wanting the salt amount upped?  How was your bottom crust and also was your pie light?

Norma - I just like a little more salt in my doughs strictly for flavor. I went down to 2 because of the starter, but I don't think it made any difference in the fermentation. The bottom had a nice golden brown color.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 28, 2011, 01:14:46 PM
Your .12 has more spring than my .15. Looks like the new pans worked beautifully for you.

John

John,
I Just noticed something after you posted your formula.  Do you think that your oven spring has anything to do with the extremely low amount of yeast that you are using?

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 28, 2011, 01:42:31 PM
John,
I Just noticed something after you posted your formula.  Do you think that your oven spring has anything to do with the extremely low amount of yeast that you are using?

Matt

Not sure. This batch had .7 CY and 4% starter. I actually think that my dough is going too far to tell the truth. By the time I am pressing it out, it is full of massive bubbles. At 48 hours using .1 CY, for instance, I could only have the dough out of the fridge for a few hours due to the massive expansion that they were going through. What is your dough looking like out of the fridge and just before baking?

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: SinoChef on February 28, 2011, 03:24:47 PM
Quote
Norma,
I don't think that you really need a blue steel pan to continue.  Up until yesterday I was using a heavy guage non stick aluminum sheet pan with very good results.  The double layer pizza in pic 1 & 2 was made using the non stick pan & the other pizza was made using the blue steel pan. Was there a difference?  Absolutely.  Did the pizza taste any different? Nope.

Matthew,

What was the difference? I assume the steel conducts the heat better? IS the gauge of the metal the same in both pans?

Sino
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 28, 2011, 05:08:03 PM
Not sure. This batch had .7 CY and 4% starter. I actually think that my dough is going too far to tell the truth. By the time I am pressing it out, it is full of massive bubbles. At 48 hours using .1 CY, for instance, I could only have the dough out of the fridge for a few hours due to the massive expansion that they were going through. What is your dough looking like out of the fridge and just before baking?

John

I use .7% IDY & starter as well.  After 24 hours I remove it from the fridge & let it sit out until the chill is gone, then divide it & shape it into really tight cylinders & place in rounded rectangular containers where they proof at room temp for another 4-5 hours or until the dough fills up the container.  There are no bubbles forming on top of the dough at either stage.  By the 2nd proofing the dough is full of air bubbles within the dough.  During the final stretch the dough is very soft but extremely strong & remains in place without any springback whatsoever.  Hope this helps.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on February 28, 2011, 05:19:15 PM
Matthew,

What was the difference? I assume the steel conducts the heat better? IS the gauge of the metal the same in both pans?

Sino

The heat is conducted much better & is extremely evenly distributed.  The bottom of the pizza was perfectly uniform.  Sorry, I'm not sure on the gauge of either one.  They are both quite heavy though.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: sherm1018 on February 28, 2011, 11:15:44 PM
Well I finally got around to baking up the pizza that I made from the Mulino Marino "Enkir" flour.  The texture of the crumb was extremely light while the crust had a nice crunch to it.  As some of you had said, my next attempt will involve mixing a softer flour with the MM for a more dense texture that will also provide a bit more oven-spring.  All in all I was pleased, especially when you figure this was my first go with a totally different flour. 

For John and Matt I would like to know what percentage of starter is used for the entire mix?  In addition, what type of flavor can one expect from the use of starter?  I like a milder "sourdough" that isn't too tart... is this what you get with your pies or do they tend to be the traditional sour dough flavor.  I apologize in advance if you have already answered these questions before, but as you already know I'm new to this forum.  I have used starter before with bread, and find that proofing them out so to speak or letting them go almost too long provides a mild almost "lactic" flavor that goes great with the cheese and higher fat toppings.  If this is the effect you get with your pizzas, then I'll definitely have to give it a go.

That all being said, I have attached a couple of pics as promised and look forward to hearing your thoughts, critiques and suggestions.



Bests to everybody


Scott
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on March 01, 2011, 06:01:04 AM
Well I finally got around to baking up the pizza that I made from the Mulino Marino "Enkir" flour.  The texture of the crumb was extremely light while the crust had a nice crunch to it.  As some of you had said, my next attempt will involve mixing a softer flour with the MM for a more dense texture that will also provide a bit more oven-spring.  All in all I was pleased, especially when you figure this was my first go with a totally different flour. 

For John and Matt I would like to know what percentage of starter is used for the entire mix?  In addition, what type of flavor can one expect from the use of starter?  I like a milder "sourdough" that isn't too tart... is this what you get with your pies or do they tend to be the traditional sour dough flavor.  I apologize in advance if you have already answered these questions before, but as you already know I'm new to this forum.  I have used starter before with bread, and find that proofing them out so to speak or letting them go almost too long provides a mild almost "lactic" flavor that goes great with the cheese and higher fat toppings.  If this is the effect you get with your pizzas, then I'll definitely have to give it a go.

That all being said, I have attached a couple of pics as promised and look forward to hearing your thoughts, critiques and suggestions.



Bests to everybody


Scott

Hi Scott,
I use about 7% (water weight) starter for the sole purpose of adding some flavor & acidity to the dough.  As the dough sits in the fridge for the majority of its fermentation, I am relying on commercial yeast to do the leavening.  I don't use a refreshed starter in this formula.  I purposely use starter that I put aside after refreshing my mother starter & has been sitting unrefreshed for 1-2 weeks because it's much more acidic & tangy.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on March 01, 2011, 06:36:21 AM
I use .7% IDY & starter as well.  After 24 hours I remove it from the fridge & let it sit out until the chill is gone, then divide it & shape it into really tight cylinders & place in rounded rectangular containers where they proof at room temp for another 4-5 hours or until the dough fills up the container.  There are no bubbles forming on top of the dough at either stage.  By the 2nd proofing the dough is full of air bubbles within the dough.  During the final stretch the dough is very soft but extremely strong & remains in place without any springback whatsoever.  Hope this helps.

Matt

Thanks very much Matt. I am going to make a few changes to my workflow.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on March 01, 2011, 06:40:12 AM
Well I finally got around to baking up the pizza that I made from the Mulino Marino "Enkir" flour...

Scott - I am really intrigued by this flour, and I hope to get some for a 25% mix. Thanks very much for posting your results, which look great. Like Matt, I started using starter in the dough for acidity during the cold ferment. Four percent of flour is not alot at all - you can see my formula used a few posts up. It is not necessary, but adds flavor and helps the final texture. I might try a room temp starter-only soon as well.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on March 01, 2011, 06:45:31 AM
Scott,

Thanks for posting your results when using all Enkir.  :)  Your crumb does look very light.

Norma

Matt,

Thanks also for your post.  :)  Like John, I will have to make some changes to my workflow for my next attempt.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: parallei on March 01, 2011, 02:50:15 PM
Just a quick note on the Paderno Blue Steel Pans.  I used mine for the first time this weekend and they were great.  I followed Johnís lead and cut down temp a bit and they still gave me the bit more browning on the bottom that I was looking for.

I had planned on only rinsing with water and oiling the pans before use.  However, a preliminary wipe down produced a black Ēnon-food gradeĒ looking and smelling residue.  So I went ahead and washed them with a bit of dish soap and warm water.  I dried them immediately and put them into the oven at about 200 deg for a few minutes then wiped them down with vegetable oil.  No problems.  They performed great, no sticking and no rust.  Iíll stick to the no soap thing from here on out (like I do with my cast iron). 
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on March 03, 2011, 07:50:17 AM
This blog is from another blogger: Learning New Tricks- Tricolore, Roma- Pizza with Gabriele Bonci http://www.divinacucina-blog.com/2011/01/learning-new-tricks-tricolore-roma.html

Does anyone know what kind of flour this is, in part of this post? A mixture of 90% 00 flour from Molino Marino and 10% emmer flour ( farro) with about 80% ratio of water to flour, a very, very wet and soft dough.

In this post http://www.divinacucina-blog.com/2011/01/im-bonci-girl-lezione-part-2.html there is a video where Bonci explains how to make pizza in teglia.  I have watched so many videos and donít think this one has been posted before, but if it was, I will delete it.  I think it is amazing how Bonci mixes and opens the dough so easily.  I canít understand Italian, so if there is anything in this video that anyone can explain to me, I would appreciate it.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDO_m7S-Pr4

Another blogger with that went to pizza class with Bonci and ingredients with dry yeast.

http://www.kittyskitchen.it/la-pizza-secondo-gabriele-bonci.html

From the same blogger bread with Bonci.

http://www.kittyskitchen.it/la-panificazione-secondo-gabriele-bonci.html

The comments under this blog are interesting. Does it say to put oil in the pan by some commentors?
1 kg of flour (800 gr '00 'and 200 grams of farro) I still donít understand what farro is.

I canít really understand what this article is about either.

http://www.dissapore.com/primo-piano/gnente-pizzza-per-il-gambero-rossso/

If you scroll down in this link there were pizza classes with Bonci on March 24th and March 25th, that look like they are sold out.

http://www.tricoloremonti.it/site/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=89   

I bought two used blue steel pans from this website that sells new and used equipment yesterday.  For the two pans and shipping they were 23.96 Hopefully they will work okay.

http://www.bakedeco.com/detail.asp?id=14454&catid=577

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on March 03, 2011, 09:09:54 AM
After my last post, I decided to look what farro might be.  This is some of what I found.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farro)

From a blogger:
http://cuisines-mediterranean.blogspot.com/2009/07/what-is-farro.html (http://cuisines-mediterranean.blogspot.com/2009/07/what-is-farro.html)

 Some places it can be purchased are:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dgrocery&field-keywords=farro&x=15&y=19&tag=pizzamaking-20 (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dgrocery&field-keywords=farro&x=15&y=19&tag=pizzamaking-20)
http://www.farawayfoods.com/treasure00180.html (http://www.farawayfoods.com/treasure00180.html)

http://www.cybercucina.com/ccdocs/products/WW4058.html (http://www.cybercucina.com/ccdocs/products/WW4058.html)

Norma
Title: Re: .12 TF with KAAP
Post by: dellavecchia on March 03, 2011, 06:42:03 PM
I tried .12 with 75% KAAP, and got little oven spring. I am resigned to the fact that I am not developing enough gluten by hand mixing. There are lots of bubbles and the crumb is light as a feather, but just not much height.

John
Title: Re: .12 TF with KAAP
Post by: Matthew on March 03, 2011, 07:54:12 PM
I tried .12 with 75% KAAP, and got little oven spring. I am resigned to the fact that I am not developing enough gluten by hand mixing. There are lots of bubbles and the crumb is light as a feather, but just not much height.

John

John,
Honestly, I think it looks great.  My feeling is that the only way to incorporate all that air into the dough is by doing a double hydration & using a 2 speed spiral mixer.
By the way, I just subscribed to RAI & will now be able to watch Bonci everyday on La Prova del Cuoco.

Matt
Title: Re: .12 TF with KAAP
Post by: norma427 on March 03, 2011, 08:44:37 PM
I tried .12 with 75% KAAP, and got little oven spring. I am resigned to the fact that I am not developing enough gluten by hand mixing. There are lots of bubbles and the crumb is light as a feather, but just not much height.

John

John,

I agree with Matt, your oven spring looks great to me.  You did a great job!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: .12 TF with KAAP
Post by: scottserena on March 03, 2011, 11:33:05 PM
I tried .12 with 75% KAAP, and got little oven spring. I am resigned to the fact that I am not developing enough gluten by hand mixing. There are lots of bubbles and the crumb is light as a feather, but just not much height.

John

I think it looks great! I am getting better oven spring baking for 10 minutes un-topped.

Bonci seems to barely mix the dough at all.   



75% KAAP, what is the other 25% ?

Scott

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: pizzablogger on March 04, 2011, 01:13:39 PM
John, those seem to be about right from here.

These are about .15TF square pizzas made a while ago that have maybe a little more lift to them (taken a little closer up than your pics), with a 70%KABF, 30%MC00 flour mix but lower hydrations than what is often used here (70% first pic, 65% bottom pic). 

I think you are pretty much in the wheelhouse for that thickness factor.

This has been a great read now that I am "caught up" with the thread. Some really just killer looking pizzas here by all involved and great experimentation.

Matthew, I have often pondered doing a double hydration Square pie (having seen ciabatta made this way years ago at the bakery), but have never tried it at home.

Am definitely gonna try an upper 80-ish hydration pie and try to incorporate some of the things Norma and Matthew in particular have been doing. Awesome!
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on March 04, 2011, 02:27:49 PM
I agree, with others, that John's latest is well within a competent range for a .12. Bear in mind that American all-purpose flour is notoriously limited in its ability to attain height (this is true even for Canadian AP, which typically has 13.33% protein).

I agree with Matt that a spiral mixer is the ultimate way to go- not least of all because of his proven, outstanding results. The person mixing by hand can nonetheless incorporate a lot of air into a dough by using the basic push-and-fold method. It's more awkward and time-consuming than the stretch-and-fold method, but whenever I do it that way I can both feel and hear air incoporating itself as I go along.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: parallei on March 04, 2011, 02:41:50 PM
I'm with the others John, I think your last 0.12 effort looks great and the spring seems pretty good.  I've been on a crusade to eliminate using my mixer.  I'm stating to look at it as just one more thing to clean.  It seems to me that if we can get great spring in our breads without a mixer. the same thing out to be possible with this flatter bread.

Would someone enlighten me? What is the deal with getting air into the dough during mixing?  Is this to provide more O2 for the yeast's preliminary growth spurt or what?  I've always assumed that most of the O2 would be consumed fairly early during the fermentaion cycle and that the bubbles we love to see are mostly fermrntion by products.

Pizzablogger - your pie looks killer too!    
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on March 04, 2011, 05:01:00 PM
pizzablogger,

Your crumb structure really looks great.  :)  What kind of formula, flour, hydration and workflow did you use?

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: scottserena on March 04, 2011, 05:19:12 PM
I wrote the USA distributor of the Mulino Marino flour that Bonci uses.

Here is there response:

Good morning, Scott. Thank you for your patience. I can get you any quantity of Type 0 flour in 1kg bags as you like. The cost would be $9.95 per bag. We are scheduled to place another order in approximately 8 weeks, which means the flour should arrive in 12 weeks or so. Please let me know if I can be of any further help.
 
Thanks again.

 [email protected]

Adam. 

I am going to order some.
 
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on March 04, 2011, 07:50:28 PM
For anyone interested, Gabriele uses 20% starter & a 9 hour room temp fermentation.  His typical blend our flour is 10% to his tipo 0.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on March 05, 2011, 06:25:48 AM
For anyone interested, Gabriele uses 20% starter & a 9 hour room temp fermentation.  His typical blend our flour is 10% to his tipo 0.

Matt

He stole Chad Robertson's bread recipe!  :D Seriously, that is quite the bombshell. Where did you find the info?

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on March 05, 2011, 06:42:24 AM
He stole Chad Robertson's bread recipe!  :D Seriously, that is quite the bombshell. Where did you find the info?

John

He Revealed it on La Prova Del Cuoco.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on March 05, 2011, 07:02:35 AM
I just mixed up a batch of Bonci/Robertson. Will post results later today.

Also, everyone - thanks for the encouraging remarks on my .12 attempt. I guess I just have a little "Matt envy" when it comes to his crumb height.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on March 05, 2011, 07:06:50 AM
I just mixed up a batch of Bonci/Robertson. Will post results later today.

Also, everyone - thanks for the encouraging remarks on my .12 attempt. I guess I just have a little "Matt envy" when it comes to his crumb height.

John

Can't wait to see!  Are you going to bake it tonight?  I am prepping my starter to ensure that it's at full throttle.  I'm going to mix up a batch tomorrow morning.

Matt  
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on March 05, 2011, 07:16:49 AM
Yes, I just happened to have my starter at the perfect stage (my starters are left at room temp), so I literally mixed it right after seeing your post. It is essentially the Tartine recipe, except I went with 2.5% salt.

My doctor is going to kill me - pizza twice this week!

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on March 05, 2011, 07:33:56 AM
I wrote the USA distributor of the Mulino Marino flour that Bonci uses.


Scott - I ordered some 00 and enkir. Thanks for the link.

Kelly- your pies look superb!

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on March 05, 2011, 08:23:33 AM
For anyone interested, Gabriele uses 20% starter & a 9 hour room temp fermentation.  His typical blend our flour is 10% to his tipo 0.

Matt

Matt,

Thanks for the great detective work!   8)

I am anxious to see John's and your bake.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: pizzablogger on March 05, 2011, 08:30:05 AM
For anyone interested, Gabriele uses 20% starter & a 9 hour room temp fermentation.  His typical blend our flour is 10% to his tipo 0.

Matt

Matt, is the cited 20% starter based on percentage of formula water, of formula flour or of total dough weight?

Thanks --K
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on March 05, 2011, 08:31:22 AM
Matt, is the cited 20% starter based on percentage of formula water, of formula flour or of total dough weight?

Thanks --K

He referred to it as per kilo of flour so it is by flour weight.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: pizzablogger on March 05, 2011, 08:38:04 AM
He referred to it as per kilo of flour so it is by flour weight.

Matt

Thanks.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on March 05, 2011, 05:32:50 PM
Tartine bread + blue steel teglia = Pizzarium.

Need to work on this one.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jackie Tran on March 05, 2011, 05:36:47 PM
Looking good John.  How was it? Soft and tender?  Was the skin crispy?

Chau
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on March 05, 2011, 06:09:05 PM
Tartine bread + blue steel teglia = Pizzarium.

Need to work on this one.

John

Did you use your homemade starter?

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on March 05, 2011, 06:17:16 PM
Matt - Yes, the natural starter. It was 90% KAAP and 10% whole wheat. Not the best choice for flour, but I wanted to try the Tartine dough since it is so close to what Bonci is supposedly doing (right down to the number of hours for ferment). It was .12 TF - next time will be .15, and I will be trying Mulino Marino flour.

Chau - It was very soft, but not as soft as the 48 hour/CY version. Outside was slightly crunchy. It tasted alot like Tartine bread!

All in all it was a very satisfying bake. The artichoke, guanciale and cooked tomato sauce side was stellar.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Pizza01 on March 05, 2011, 06:17:20 PM
awesome result john and the photos are fantastic!
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on March 05, 2011, 06:30:58 PM
Matt - Yes, the natural starter. It was 90% KAAP and 10% whole wheat. Not the best choice for flour, but I wanted to try the Tartine dough since it is so close to what Bonci is supposedly doing (right down to the number of hours for ferment). It was .12 TF - next time will be .15, and I will be trying Mulino Marino flour.

Chau - It was very soft, but not as soft as the 48 hour/CY version. Outside was slightly crunchy. It tasted alot like Tartine bread!

All in all it was a very satisfying bake. The artichoke, guanciale and cooked tomato sauce side was stellar.

John

It looks good.  This is one that I made a while back using  Tartine dough & SF starter.  It was more of a focaccia.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on March 05, 2011, 06:31:57 PM
Tartine bread + blue steel teglia = Pizzarium.

Need to work on this one.

John

John,

Truly amazing!   ;D  I also wonder what would happen if the Tartine bread recipe would be used.  The dough behaves about the same.  You did a great job and your crumb looks great!

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on March 05, 2011, 06:37:57 PM
John,

Truly amazing!   ;D  I also wonder what would happen if the Tartine bread recipe would be used.  The dough behaves about the same.  You did a great job and your crumb looks great!

Norma

Just look at the pic above.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on March 05, 2011, 06:43:25 PM
Just look at the pic above.

Matt,

Truly amazing to you, too!   ;D  I had thought about trying the Tartine recipe out exactly because it also reminded me of the Tartine bread dough.  It had felt about the same to me, but I was trying to figure out how the relationship connected.  Both you and John did figure it out before I did.

Now I know what to try when I get my blue steel pan.

Great job!

Thanks to you and John.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on March 05, 2011, 06:48:39 PM
Matt,

Truly amazing to you, too!   ;D  I had thought about trying the Tartine recipe out exactly because it also reminded me of the Tartine bread dough.  It had felt about the same to me, but I was trying to figure out how the relationship connected.  Both you and John did figure it out before I did.

Now I know what to try when I get my blue steel pan.

Great job!

Thanks to you and John.  :)

Norma

I think it is very similar the only main difference is that Tartine is a lean dough.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on March 05, 2011, 07:03:48 PM
I think it is very similar the only main difference is that Tartine is a lean dough.

Matt

Matt,

That was an excellent analysis.  ;D  I wondered since Boci also makes so many kinds of bread if there is where he has learned to make his pizzas great, too.  It seems that way to me now, since I have read the Tartine bread book and also seen videos of Bonci making bread.  All that was needed was the oil added. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on March 05, 2011, 08:15:45 PM
I forgot to mention that I did add 3% oil to the Tartine recipe used here. In the future, I would also up the hydration to 80%.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: pizzablogger on March 05, 2011, 09:58:38 PM
For anyone interested, Gabriele uses 20% starter & a 9 hour room temp fermentation.  His typical blend our flour is 10% to his tipo 0.

Matthew, is the cited 9 hour room temperature fermentation an "all in" number?

Matt - Yes, the natural starter. It was 90% KAAP and 10% whole wheat. Not the best choice for flour, but I wanted to try the Tartine dough since it is so close to what Bonci is supposedly doing (right down to the number of hours for ferment).

John, I've seen this mentioned before from others on other websites, but a 9 hour total ambient fermentation (bulk and proofing) is likely not what Chad Robertson is doing at Tartine Bakery.

From page 52 of the book..."At Tartine, we try to maintain the dough at a constant temperature between 78įF and 82įF to accomplish bulk fermentation in three to four hours"

In the ongoing recipe in the book, once the final loaves are shaped and ready to proof, Robertson mentions there are two ways to go...either a proof/rise of 3 to 4 hours (non-retarded) or for up to 12 hours cold/retarded, mentioning 8-12 hours of retarding will develop more complex flavors in the final product.

So, for simplicity's sake, assuming a 30 minute bench rest (a range of 20-30mins was indicated) after the pre-shaping which follows the bulk ferment, the total fermentation time before baking is 6.50 to 8.50 hours if non-retarded, which is close to the 9hrs mentioned for Gabriele, and 11.50 to 16.50 if utilizing a retarded proofing....the retarded product potentially experiencing nearly double the fermentation time of the non-retarded ferment mentioned in the book for the home bread maker (granted, the fermentation cycle is different for non-retarded vs retarded doughs).

As far as what Robertson is actually doing at Tartine, we know he tries to finish bulk fermentation between 3-4 hours as previously mentioned. In the Tartine Bread video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5kKeKSfyOE), at 1:05 Robertson says "When you let your bread rise 8, 10, 12 hours in a cool environment, it has time to develop a ton of character". While talking, at 1:13 they show individually shaped doughs being placed into a temperature controlled cooler.

While I am sure the total time varies depending on the specific bread being made, it's somewhat safe to say that the actual workflow used at Tartine Bread (not the non-reterded bulk & proofing protocall mentioned in the book) is 3-4 hours bulk at 78įF to 82įF and then a range of about 8-12 hours of retarded proofing, for a total "all-in" time of about 12-16.50 hours-ish.

I've made the Tartine bread both ways and the flavor of the cold retarded doughs are noticeably improved over the non-retarded work flow, which IMO leaves me wanting for more developed flavors. --K

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: parallei on March 05, 2011, 10:45:27 PM
Well, I answered my own question about incorporating air into the dough.   What I read says the air provides sites as nuclei for co2 produced during fermentation.  O.K.

John, your latest looks great.  I did an 80% HR Tartine, with 2% oil last, weekend.  No photo's.  It didn't end up as nice as yours did.  I under cooked it a bit.

Here is tonight's minimalist's approach:  Basic no-knead: 80% HR, 100% the cheap AP I use to feed my starter, 2% each oil and salt, 0.75% IDY, TF = 0.15.  Mix everything with a spoon for 30 secs, cover let sit for 7 hours, then fold once or twice, let rest for 1 hour, bake.  Not bad for not doing anything much......
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on March 06, 2011, 07:32:09 AM
Matthew, is the cited 9 hour room temperature fermentation an "all in" number?

John, I've seen this mentioned before from others on other websites, but a 9 hour total ambient fermentation (bulk and proofing) is likely not what Chad Robertson is doing at Tartine Bakery.


Kelly - Sorry about the confusion, I meant that the 9 hours matched my personal workflow for Tartine, reflecting the shorter workflow that Chad provides in the book. Chad definitely does a retarded final proof for his bread. I personally prefer the wheat-forward taste as opposed to sourness.

Paul - Great job for no-knead. Minimalist Pizzarium at it's best!

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on March 06, 2011, 11:27:41 AM
Paul,

Your minimalist's approach looks great!  :)  You got really good results using your method.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: pizzablogger on March 06, 2011, 12:58:48 PM
Kelly - Sorry about the confusion, I meant that the 9 hours matched my personal workflow for Tartine, reflecting the shorter workflow that Chad provides in the book. Chad definitely does a retarded final proof for his bread. I personally prefer the wheat-forward taste as opposed to sourness.

The wheat forward taste of non-retarded Tartine workflow is indeed excellent.

Sorry if my long-winded response came off as sounding a little gruff, as that was not my intention. :)

Paul, dittos here on your latest efforts.....nice work!
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on March 06, 2011, 01:15:51 PM
Sorry if my long-winded response came off as sounding a little gruff, as that was not my intention. :)

Kelly - Not at all, I thought it was a great post!

I now have a 10% camaldoli starter dough working that I am leaving at room temp to ferment over 18-20 hours. Back at the beginning of this thread, Matt was doing this workflow, so it is nothing new. But I think it will yield the mature taste of the cold ferment I am after and still be in the vein of the newly found information on Bonci's "bread" dough.

Thinking back to a video I saw recently, Bonci had a mixer full of dough that looked exactly like the Bosco dough. He must have switched to this new workflow at some point. Any thoughts?

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on March 06, 2011, 02:13:48 PM
Kelly - Not at all, I thought it was a great post!

I now have a 10% camaldoli starter dough working that I am leaving at room temp to ferment over 18-20 hours. Back at the beginning of this thread, Matt was doing this workflow, so it is nothing new. But I think it will yield the mature taste of the cold ferment I am after and still be in the vein of the newly found information on Bonci's "bread" dough.

Thinking back to a video I saw recently, Bonci had a mixer full of dough that looked exactly like the Bosco dough. He must have switched to this new workflow at some point. Any thoughts?

John

John,
I mixed up a batch this morning at 4am & it leavened beautifully during the 1st fermentation.  The dough was extremely light & full of air.  I just divided & shaped it & it's now going through the 2nd fermentation.  When it fills the container it'll be ready.  As far as Bonci's workflow goes, his explanation on how he uses his starter was a very recent episode.  There was another epissode where he made mosto & used that to leaven his dough.  The fermentation window for that was around 12 hours. I love watching him work; truly flawless.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on March 06, 2011, 03:19:33 PM
John,
I mixed up a batch this morning at 4am & it leavened beautifully during the 1st fermentation.  The dough was extremely light & full of air.  I just divided & shaped it & it's now going through the 2nd fermentation.  When it fills the container it'll be ready.  As far as Bonci's workflow goes, his explanation on how he uses his starter was a very recent episode.  There was another epissode where he made mosto & used that to leaven his dough.  The fermentation window for that was around 12 hours. I love watching him work; truly flawless.

Matt

Very cool - Thanks for the shot of the dough. It looks very similar to the one I did last night. Looking forward to your magical touch, and your bake results tonight!

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on March 06, 2011, 05:11:05 PM
Very cool - Thanks for the shot of the dough. It looks very similar to the one I did last night. Looking forward to your magical touch, and your bake results tonight!

John

Best ones to date!  The interior was incredibly soft & light as a pillow.  In all honesty, this one will be tough to improve.
The stuffed pizza was a huge hit.  I saw Gabriele make it & had to try it.  Once the dough was stretched, it was topped with cavolo verza (savoy cabbage), speck, smoked scaramoza & EVOO then covered with another layer of dough drizzled with a little EVOO.  The picture was taken from a piece in the centre which really puffed up, the rest were about half as thick (see the final photo).  The flavour was spectacular A+ all the way.
The other pizza was topped with fresh ricotta, salt, EVOO & roasted pork neck.  Another winning combo of toppings.
The dough itself was extremely well leavened with no sourdough flavour at all.  I did this by starting out with 100g of cold culture & feeding it 3 times over a 24 hour period.  The dough was double hydrated & mixed in the spiral as usual followed by 3 stretched & folds during the initial bulk fermentation of 10 hours.  I was then divided & shaped for the 2nd fermentation at 80 degrees for 2 hours.  It was prepared & baked right away.

Matt


Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on March 06, 2011, 05:26:47 PM
Looking good John (I bet that pie was nice and light judging by the cross-section), Paul (I am amazed at how well the no-knead approach worked), and Matt (the pics are worth thousands of words).

Here's my latest entry in an ongoing series concerning what not to do, which I'll give the following title:
 
Don't overwork dough.

Same flour mix as always, 75% water, 5% oil, 2% salt, .25% IDY. Mixed in stand mixer until the bowl cleaned, dumped mass on board, 2 min. push-and-fold followed by 15 min. of rest, another 2 and 15, then a final 2. This is actually much less exercise than I would usually give such a dough- but I should have taken it as a big red flag to stop when, after the final 15 min. rest, I noticed that the dough ball hadn't sunk into a disc on the board the way it usually does. Anyways, it was in the fridge by 6:51 PM last Friday.

When I took it out today at around 12:00 PM, I noticed that it was stiff and tight when I poked it a few times in spite of the long rise. I let it warm up in a 76-80 degree room for three and a half hours, then commenced to forming it. The dough handled like a big rubber band. I must have flipped it 5 times in the process, and poked and prodded it further (and aggressively) once it was seated in the pan. I topped and then baked it at 500 (lowest rack) for 12 minutes.

The results can be seen in the first of the attached pics. Looks kinda like a scale model of a set of primitive burial mounds discovered in some archaeological dig. You can see where the monster bubbles pushed the heavy layer of toppings clean off. Very uncool.

Also uncool was the bottom, which was predictably tough and crunchy. Fortunately, though, it was just over the line, and not far enough over to seriously mar the eating experience.

The best aspect of this one was its excellent interior, which can be seen in the second pic. It was light, but also had chew, heft, and pull; it gave the impression of being tremendously substantial without giving me a gluten hangover later on in the form of feeling as though I'd swallowed wet cement. The overall flavour was excellent. All in all, a pretty good bake.

In the future, I'm going to resolve to listen to what the dough is trying to tell me instead of mindlessly obeying the stopwatch.

JLP  
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on March 06, 2011, 05:46:24 PM
Best ones to date!


Beautiful! Did you use your mixer on this one as well?

Jose - Fabulous crumb as well! Amazing how much hand turns can affect the gluten structure.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on March 06, 2011, 05:57:03 PM
Beautiful! Did you use your mixer on this one as well?

Jose - Fabulous crumb as well! Amazing how much hand turns can affect the gluten structure.

John

Thanks Guys.  Yes John I did.
Jose, ditto!

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on March 06, 2011, 07:42:06 PM
Matt,

Excellent looking crumbs!  :) You and John are getting great results.  What temp did you bake your pies at and for how long?

Norma

Jose,

Your crumb looks good, too.  :) Thanks for explaining what you did and how the extra handling of the dough can determine the outcome.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on March 06, 2011, 07:45:04 PM
Matt,

Excellent looking crumbs!  :) You and John are getting great results.  What temp did you bake your pies at and for how long.

Norma

Thanks Norma. Warm up at 500 & bake @ 475 about 20 minutes.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on March 06, 2011, 07:57:03 PM

Warm up at 500 & bake @ 475 about 20 minutes.

Matt

Matt,

Thanks!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: parallei on March 06, 2011, 09:43:27 PM
Looks good Matt......

Question for Jose:  Did you hit that last pie with the broiler at all?  If I hit one of these with the broiler, I get huge spots of the "mega bubbles".....
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on March 06, 2011, 10:29:58 PM
Question for Jose:  Did you hit that last pie with the broiler at all?  If I hit one of these with the broiler, I get huge spots of the "mega bubbles".....

No, it was on the lowest rack for the whole bake. I think the same thing happened to both of us, only in my case it happened from the bottom heat instead of the top.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on March 07, 2011, 05:27:41 AM
Looks good Matt......


Thanks Paul.  If anyone is interested, I updated my post to include the toppings & filling used.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on March 07, 2011, 05:51:11 AM
Matt - Was this the 60/40 spring wheat/semola?

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on March 07, 2011, 05:55:48 AM
Matt - Was this the 60/40 spring wheat/semola?

John

No, close though. This time it was 46% Semola & 54% Organic Spring Wheat.  There was no rhyme or reason for this except that's how much semola I had remaining in a bag & didn't fell like opening a new one.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on March 07, 2011, 06:19:06 AM
No, close though. This time it was 46% Semola & 54% Organic Spring Wheat.  There was no rhyme or reason for this except that's how much semola I had remaining in a bag & didn't fell like opening a new one.

Matt

Thanks Matt - What brand are you using for both? I am just interested in the averaged protein count.

I am definitely stealing that ripieni. Excellent combo of toppings in this round.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on March 07, 2011, 06:45:23 AM
Thanks Matt - What brand are you using for both? I am just interested in the averaged protein count.

I am definitely stealing that ripieni. Excellent combo of toppings in this round.

John

No problem John.  The Semola is Divella which has a 14% protein count (http://www.divella.it/semola-di-grano-duro-rimacinata-da-1-kg/?lang=en) & the flour (organic red hard spring wheat) has a protein count of 12.5-12.9% & is from a local Mill (Grain Process Enterprise).

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on March 07, 2011, 06:49:19 AM
No problem John.  The Semola is Divella which has a 14% protein count (http://www.divella.it/semola-di-grano-duro-rimacinata-da-1-kg/?lang=en) & the flour (organic red hard spring wheat) has a protein count of 12.5-12.9% & is from a local Mill (Grain Process Enterprise).

Matt

Thanks very much Matt - Very interesting on how high your averaged protein count is. I know that spring wheat has a weaker protein than winter, so it tends to come out softer in the final result. But you are also working with really fresh flour, which can make a huge difference in the bake. Great work on this.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on March 07, 2011, 07:10:53 AM
Thanks very much Matt - Very interesting on how high your averaged protein count is. I know that spring wheat has a weaker protein than winter, so it tends to come out softer in the final result. But you are also working with really fresh flour, which can make a huge difference in the bake. Great work on this.

John

I agree 100% on the freshness of the flour.  The GPE flour is spectacular & have been using it for a couple of years now.  The case of Semola that I picked up was also extremely fresh & had just arrived from Italy.
My plan in the spring is to try this in the WFO without the pan more & in line with Farinella & Forno Campo De 'Fiori.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on March 07, 2011, 07:13:00 AM
My plan in the spring is to try this in the WFO without the pan more & in line with Farinella & Forno Campo De 'Fiori.

Awesome. We can start a new thread!

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on March 07, 2011, 07:24:19 AM
This is the result of the test bake I did with 10% starter for 18 hours. 80% hydration, 2.5% salt, 3% oil, and 80/20 KAAP/KABF. Much closer to where I want to be with the crumb and taste - it was even better than the 48 hours cold ferments. I baked it this morning at 475 for 13 minutes. And then promptly ate some with artisanal salumi stuffed inside. I think that my previous 20% attempt was closer to recent Pizzarium pics (except for thickness), but this one is more to my liking.

I should have my Marino flour by the next bake this weekend.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on March 07, 2011, 09:46:36 AM
This is the result of the test bake I did with 10% starter for 18 hours. 80% hydration, 2.5% salt, 3% oil, and 80/20 KAAP/KABF. Much closer to where I want to be with the crumb and taste - it was even better than the 48 hours cold ferments. I baked it this morning at 475 for 13 minutes. And then promptly ate some with artisanal salumi stuffed inside. I think that my previous 20% attempt was closer to recent Pizzarium pics (except for thickness), but this one is more to my liking.

I should have my Marino flour by the next bake this weekend.

John

Looks really good!  Did you let it go at room temp?

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on March 07, 2011, 09:51:06 AM
Looks really good!  Did you let it go at room temp?

Matt

Thanks Matt - Yes, all room temp.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on March 07, 2011, 10:32:14 AM
This is the result of the test bake I did with 10% starter for 18 hours. 80% hydration, 2.5% salt, 3% oil, and 80/20 KAAP/KABF. Much closer to where I want to be with the crumb and taste - it was even better than the 48 hours cold ferments. I baked it this morning at 475 for 13 minutes. And then promptly ate some with artisanal salumi stuffed inside. I think that my previous 20% attempt was closer to recent Pizzarium pics (except for thickness), but this one is more to my liking.

I should have my Marino flour by the next bake this weekend.

John

John,

Your recent attempt looks great!   :)  Interesting that you are doing a shorter bake time than Matt.  I can imagine how moist the crust must have tasted.

Thanks for posting what bake time, temp, workflow and ingredients you used.  

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on March 07, 2011, 11:33:22 AM
Interesting that you are doing a shorter bake time than Matt.

Norma - For the first time, I used the convection fan feature in my oven. It gave a very nice, crisp crust and seemed to cook a bit faster.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on March 07, 2011, 11:43:37 AM
Norma - For the first time, I used the convection fan feature in my oven. It gave a very nice, crisp crust and seemed to cook a bit faster.

John

John,

Thanks for posting you used the convection fan feature in your oven.  I still find it interesting that you are doing a shorter bake than Matt.  I have noticed I get better results at market, with a higher bake temperature than I can get in my home oven, which gives me a shorter bake. I have a commercial oven at market with a convection feature.  I might have to try that some day, but the pies would be smaller, because it is only a 1/4 size oven.

I wonder what bake temperature Bonci uses.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on March 09, 2011, 04:16:07 PM
Well, I guess I am back on the Pizzarium thread, because I received my used blue steel pans today.  I am going to try an easier method this time, but I donít know what kind of results I will get.  ::)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Mmmph on March 09, 2011, 11:34:59 PM
I'm joining the fray...Beautiful pies...I wanna try it, too.

G.Bonci...Dude!

What amazing examples of pizza AND interest/discussion of this form of pie. Been lurking for weeks...yeah, baybee!

I'm down...I don't want to hijack this thread. Just showing y'all my new pans. If you wish to comment on them, please...here:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13241.new.html
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Mmmph on March 12, 2011, 08:23:29 PM
First Attempt : New Paderno blue steel pans (I likey!). I don't have a stone in the oven...gotta get one for better, faster oven spring. Weather is getting warmer, so I don't know how many more of these I'll bake, as heating the house isn't the way in NC springs/summers.

100% KABF. Mixed 3min in my DLX mixer, stretch and fold every 20 minutes. Refrigerated for 24 hr. Stretch and fold 1x. Another 24 hour refrigerate. 2 hour rise in lightly oiled pan. 500 degrees on bottom rack for 10 min. topped with tomato, fresh mozz and pecorino romano. To the top rack for 5 min, then topped with sopressata. 3 more minutes @ 500 then cool on wire rack for 10 min.

Dig in !

Great taste.

Flour (100%):    380.92 g  |  13.44 oz | 0.84 lbs
Water (78%):    297.12 g  |  10.48 oz | 0.66 lbs
CY (.7%):    2.67 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | Salt (2.5%):    9.52 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.71 tsp | 0.57 tbsp
Oil (3%):    11.43 g | 0.4 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.54 tsp | 0.85 tbsp
Total (184.2%):   701.66 g | 24.75 oz | 1.55 lbs | TF = 0.15


Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on March 14, 2011, 06:18:41 PM
This is the formula for my next attempt at a Pizzarium style pizza tomorrow.  I mixed the dough this morning with only the paddle attachment on my Kitchen Aid mixer.  This dough was highly sticky.  I also used one preferment Lehmann dough poolish in the final dough, that I had started Friday.  I think the amount of hydration I selected for these flours is too high.  This dough didnít want to become less sticky even after different stretch and folds.  Finally today at market, I could finally form somewhat of a dough ball.  The dough will cold ferment until tomorrow.  If this pizza is anywhere near successful, it will be the largest pie I have ever made. 

Pictures after the dough was mixed, after dough had some stretch and folds, at market doing more stretch and folds and final dough ball.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on March 14, 2011, 06:21:45 PM
pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on March 14, 2011, 10:51:24 PM
First Attempt : New Paderno blue steel pans (I likey!). I don't have a stone in the oven...gotta get one for better, faster oven spring. Weather is getting warmer, so I don't know how many more of these I'll bake, as heating the house isn't the way in NC springs/summers.

100% KABF. Mixed 3min in my DLX mixer, stretch and fold every 20 minutes. Refrigerated for 24 hr. Stretch and fold 1x. Another 24 hour refrigerate. 2 hour rise in lightly oiled pan. 500 degrees on bottom rack for 10 min. topped with tomato, fresh mozz and pecorino romano. To the top rack for 5 min, then topped with sopressata. 3 more minutes @ 500 then cool on wire rack for 10 min.

Dig in !

Great taste.

Flour (100%):    380.92 g  |  13.44 oz | 0.84 lbs
Water (78%):    297.12 g  |  10.48 oz | 0.66 lbs
CY (.7%):    2.67 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | Salt (2.5%):    9.52 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.71 tsp | 0.57 tbsp
Oil (3%):    11.43 g | 0.4 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.54 tsp | 0.85 tbsp
Total (184.2%):   701.66 g | 24.75 oz | 1.55 lbs | TF = 0.15

They look awesome, great job. I'm definitely going to have to try one with sopressata. Maybe do a thinner one and fold the slices over into sandwiches  :chef:
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on March 15, 2011, 10:35:59 PM
Well the ďBad Mama JamaĒ dough ball was baked into a pizza today.  This was the biggest dough ball I have ever handled and the biggest pizza I have ever made.  This attempt wasnít as good as some of my attempts, although the dough did work okay.  The oven spring isnít as good as some of my attempts either. 

At least I know I can make a big pizza now.  Steve and I put slices of this big Pizzarium attempt for people to try.  We received quite a few favorable comments. 

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on March 15, 2011, 10:38:48 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on March 15, 2011, 10:42:10 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on March 16, 2011, 08:30:39 AM
Norma - That looks like a fantastic bake. The crumb looks moist and springy. What was the cooking temp on these?

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on March 16, 2011, 08:56:51 AM
Norma - That looks like a fantastic bake. The crumb looks moist and springy. What was the cooking temp on these?

John

John,

Thanks for saying the bake looked fantastic.  The crumb was moist and springy, but when I went to lift the dough into the pan, it almost got away from me.  It then developed thinner spots in some places.  The temperature on the deck was between 555-565 degrees F.  The combination of flours I used werenít as good as some I had tried before, in the crumb and the taste of the crust.  I also think I need to up the salt amount.  I need to try some other kind of starter also.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: P-TSAR on March 17, 2011, 04:06:17 PM
Hello Guys

Thank god I have found this Forum.

Have been looking for help with Pizza al taglio since eating metres of it in Rome.
Failed with quite a few attempts and was ready to give up.

I live in the UK so I have good access to Italian flour and ingredients.

I am going to try and combine a few methods and see what happens. So I'll let everyone know.

Going for a Forno Campo style hopefully.

Stuart
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: P-TSAR on March 20, 2011, 12:53:29 PM
Success from my first bake using some ideas from here.

300g Strong Bread Flour
100g "00" Flour
100g Semola di Grano Duro
2 tsp salt
2 tbsp EVOO
3.5g IDY
400ml Water

Mixed it by hand. Regen 5 times. Fridge for 24hr

Regen 5 times. Fridge another 24hr

Room temp rise for 4 hrs. Then baked at full power for 20 mins.

Made one Pizza Rosso and one Bianca.

Incredibly light and tasty dough.
Will post pics soon.

Cheers
Stu
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: ponzu on March 21, 2011, 10:38:36 PM
Here's my second attempt at a pan pizza in the pizzarium mold.  

The first I made using the foccacia dough recipe from the pizzaquest.com site....Not enough structure or taste.

This one is made with a tartine dough oven roasted tomatoes and pesto. It turned out pretty great, though rich.

AZ
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jackie Tran on March 21, 2011, 10:45:38 PM
Nice job Alexi.  Glad you like it.  As soon as I get my crust worked out, I'll be attacking Pizza Romana next.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on March 22, 2011, 07:42:56 AM
Huge oven spring Alexi. Looks very tasty. Was the dough Tartine workflow completely, or modified? What was your TF?

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: ponzu on March 22, 2011, 11:07:23 PM
Huge oven spring Alexi. Looks very tasty. Was the dough Tartine workflow completely, or modified? What was your TF?

John

Thanks John,

the dough was one half of the Tartine recipe (or the normal size of one loaf.)  It was my current recipe which is tartine except for 23 instead of 20 gm of salt and 880 instead of 750 gm of water.  No changes to work flow.

In terms of thickness factor that's not a statistic that I ever use so....I don't know.  It took up the whole of a standard sized baking pan.  Dough weighed about 1050 gm wet.

AZ
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: P-TSAR on March 24, 2011, 06:53:57 PM
First attempt pic.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: parallei on March 24, 2011, 10:19:56 PM
P-Star:

You sure picked a worthy subject for your first photo post.  Your pie looks great :chef:

Paul
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on March 25, 2011, 05:37:26 PM
Playing with some different flours. This was 80% Central Milling 00 "Normal" (11.5% P), 10% Giusto's Ultimate Performer (14% P), and 10% Mulino Marino Enkir (18%+ P). The result was a semi-open crumb that was literally melt in your mouth. The dough is 10% starter, 80% hydration, and hand developed. Total of 22 hours fermentation - all room temp.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on March 25, 2011, 05:38:26 PM
Pics continued....
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on March 25, 2011, 06:19:16 PM
Playing with some different flours. This was 80% Central Milling 00 "Normal" (11.5% P), 10% Giusto's Ultimate Performer (14% P), and 10% Mulino Marino Enkir (18%+ P). The result was a semi-open crumb that was literally melt in your mouth. The dough is 10% starter, 80% hydration, and hand developed. Total of 22 hours fermentation - all room temp.

John

John,

Your dough and pies look great!  ;D Do you think the Molino Marino Enkir flour helped to get the melt in your mouth results?  What kind of starter did you use in your dough and how did you decide on a TF for your formula?  I can only imagine how good those pies tasted after the 22 hrs. room temperature fermentation.  Your crumb looks just right.

Great job!  :chef:

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on March 25, 2011, 06:38:14 PM
John,

Your dough and pies look great!  ;D Do you think the Molino Marino Enkir flour helped to get the melt in your mouth results?  What kind of starter did you use in your dough and how did you decide on a TF for your formula?  I can only imagine how good those pies tasted after the 22 hrs. room temperature fermentation.  Your crumb looks just right.

Great job!  :chef:

Norma

Norma - I think it had more to do with the 00 CM flour, which performed really well in this application, even though it is meant for high temp WFO cooking. Nicky Giusto at CM would not tell me the blend, but he said it was meant to perform like Caputo "but not exactly the same." If I would have used Caputo 00 the pizza would have been a frisbee.

The other flours gave it some strength, and in particular the Enkir gave it a heady, buttery, "wheaty" smell and flavor. It is truly a beautiful flour.

The starter used was my naturally cultivated "Tartine" variety.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on March 25, 2011, 09:46:31 PM
Norma - I think it had more to do with the 00 CM flour, which performed really well in this application, even though it is meant for high temp WFO cooking. Nicky Giusto at CM would not tell me the blend, but he said it was meant to perform like Caputo "but not exactly the same." If I would have used Caputo 00 the pizza would have been a frisbee.

The other flours gave it some strength, and in particular the Enkir gave it a heady, buttery, "wheaty" smell and flavor. It is truly a beautiful flour.

The starter used was my naturally cultivated "Tartine" variety.

John

John,

Thanks for the information on what you thought the flours did.  Those flours do sound interesting. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: parallei on March 25, 2011, 11:02:29 PM
 Sensa una teglia:

A bianca.  75% HR, 5% starter, 0.3% IDY, 100% KAAP, 2% Olive Oil, 2% sea salt, 2% sugar.  TF = .18.  Tartine method for first 2 hours, into fridge for 18 hours.  Let come to room temp for 2 hours, remove from container, fold once, let rest 1 hour, form. Olive oil, rosemary and sea salt on top.  Baked on stone @ 500 deg for about 16 minutes.

The folding method is powerful stuff. Though it sprung a bit much (Bread-zza?), it was really tasty stuffed with some salumi, cheeses and greens.  It wasn't really bread like at all.  Very thin, crisp crust and very tender, moist crumb. Bit of the Ischia taste came through.

John:  As usual, your latest looks great :chef:

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on March 26, 2011, 06:28:22 AM
Paul. I love the height you are getting. Folding is very hands on, but gives the end result a very rustic and tender crumb. I, too, am hooked on it. I have only used my mixer once in the last three months of bread and pizza making. But one look at Matt's spiral mixer creations makes me itch to spend some money!

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on March 26, 2011, 07:31:20 AM
Paul,

Your oven spring looks super and your crumb very moist!  :)

Nice job.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: parallei on March 26, 2011, 03:31:42 PM
Thanks John and Norma.

I've only been doing this style of pizza and breads the past few months, and like John haven't used my mixer in quite awhile.  I'm looking forward to trying the "fold method" for pies on my 2Stone here in a few weeks.

Quick questions for those of you using more substantial veggies, like zucchini, on these pies:

Are you par baking the pies before adding the veggies?

Also, are you precooking the veggies a bit first? I'd like to try cardoon on one of these pies and I'm pretty sure it would need to be pre baked or something.

Thanks

Paul



Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on March 26, 2011, 04:27:39 PM

Are you par baking the pies before adding the veggies?

Also, are you precooking the veggies a bit first? I'd like to try cardoon on one of these pies and I'm pretty sure it would need to be pre baked or something.


Yes on both. I wish I could find cardoons around here.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on April 20, 2011, 01:20:09 PM
This news is a couple of months old, but Pizzarium went through a small renovation. Of interest are close up pics of the crumb:

http://www.parlafood.com/pizzarium-reopens-today-in-rome/

Also of interest also is that Bonci is using the Marino spelt and enkir flours exclusively now:

http://tavoleromane.wordpress.com/2011/03/09/pizzarium-bonci-pizza-al-taglio-new1/

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: parallei on April 20, 2011, 02:33:12 PM
Thanks for the links John.  In the second link, the menu on the chalk board appears to offer a cotechino pizza ;D  I'd be all over that one..

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on April 20, 2011, 02:41:33 PM
In the second link, the menu on the chalk board appears to offer a cotechino pizza ;D  I'd be all over that one..

Oh yeah, me too. I wonder if he has ever gone all the way in that vein and slapped on thin slices of zampone.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: WestCountry on April 20, 2011, 02:49:59 PM
Thanks John,
I made a trip to Pizzarium last week on my visit to Rome. I was excited to try Pizzarium as a result of reading this thread. The pizza was amazing. Not only did I truly enjoy the crust, but the topping combinations were excellent as well. I sampled about 4 different pies, then went back to the counter for another round of the one's I liked best - it was that good.

I am going to purchase some blue pans and get started on experimenting with this style.

Thanks to all for this thread in terms of turning me on to this place!
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on April 20, 2011, 03:30:38 PM
Thanks John,
I made a trip to Pizzarium last week on my visit to Rome. I was excited to try Pizzarium as a result of reading this thread. The pizza was amazing. Not only did I truly enjoy the crust, but the topping combinations were excellent as well. I sampled about 4 different pies, then went back to the counter for another round of the one's I liked best - it was that good.

I am going to purchase some blue pans and get started on experimenting with this style.

Thanks for this thread in terms of turning me on to this place!

Wow! And you didn't take any pics for us? ;D

Can you describe the taste of the crumb, and the texture? Was it melt in your mouth or more bread-like?

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: WestCountry on April 20, 2011, 04:52:59 PM
Sorry for not having pics to share, we had a long day at the vatican which did not go well (long lines and it was much too crowded), so we were really drained from that experience. Pizzarium put a smile on my face though.  Let me describe more the taste and texture here.

At first when I got there, I asked what was hot and fresh out of the oven because I did not want re-heated slices. But they said just pick from the one's in the counter and they would heat them up, so I went along with that, and it was fine.  At first glance, I thought the crust would be heavy and bready, but it was not at all. To my surprise, it was very light, airy and tender with a subtle hint of crispness underneath on the bottom (and not greasy at all). It was definitely more light and "melt in my mouth" and not "breadlike". As far as taste goes of the crumb - I did not detect any sourness, and from what I can remember it was pretty mild (as opposed to detecting any kind of strong wheat or any other grain). I don't speak Italian, so really did not get into conversation with the folks working there. One gentleman working at the counter was very friendly though and spoke some English and helped describe the toppings to me so I could choose. We had following topping combinations, if my memory serves correct on each:

potatoes and some kind of cheese
eggplant / some kind of cheese / red tomatoes based sauce
roasted artichoke
porchetta stuffed (like a sandwich - with bread on top and bottom)

I found this blog that had some pics which seemed similar to my experience....
http://anamericaninrome.com/wp/2011/03/pizzarium-the-best-pizza-in-rome/

Chris




Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on April 20, 2011, 05:14:01 PM
Thanks so much for the detailed info Chris. Matthew had said awhile back that he is using a starter with 9 hours ferment, so the mildness makes perfect sense. Those flours he is using are super fresh and beautifully milled, so your description of the taste falls right in line with the current thinking on his recipe and workflow.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on April 20, 2011, 06:26:20 PM
Thanks so much for the detailed info Chris. Matthew had said awhile back that he is using a starter with 9 hours ferment, so the mildness makes perfect sense. Those flours he is using are super fresh and beautifully milled, so your description of the taste falls right in line with the current thinking on his recipe and workflow.

John

In actuality, in Italy, a starter is used solely as a leavening agent; the most common being a biga naturale.  Any hint of sourness in either bread or pizza is considered a faux pas & is deemed as a mismanagement of your starter.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on May 07, 2011, 09:32:06 AM
This is a video, that was recently posted of Gabriele Bonci.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5PArnleIiE&feature=digest

If anyone can help me or other members to understand what amounts of ingredients or what Bonciís workflow is, I would appreciate to know what he is saying and what amount of ingredients is he using.  Since I canít understand Italian, I can only watch and be amazed how passionate Bonci is, and what he does with dough. 

Recipe: Gabriele Bonci STUFFED PIZZA us today, or make up, whatever you want. The pizza is the white one, classical masterpiece of our Bonci. The fillings are made ??of seasonal vegetables such as: - SPINACH: They are among the most popular vegetable in the world and are famous for their high iron content, which in reality is poorly assimilated by the body. Their origin is uncertain, some say that originate in Persia and were brought to the West by the Arabs during their invasion. Spinach is a mineralizing of great value, have properties antianemic, purifying and slightly laxative, due to the cellulose in them. - BROCCOLI: The broccoli are part of the family Cruciferae. Broccus The name derives from the Latin meaning "spear." They are characterized by stem short, wavy, deep green leaves. In the middle are the small flowers that are the immature buds. Interesting content of calcium, phosphorus, vitamin C and A, great for kids up to pregnant women and lactating mothers. - PUNTARELLE: The salad of "chicory" is a fresh and flavorful side dish, very popular in some areas of Latium and Campania, as typical of these territories. The chicory are derived from Catalonia, a vegetable which is part of the chicory family, bitter taste, native to the Mediterranean basin. It is also called asparagus chicory for its shape. Based on the evidence of the cook.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on May 07, 2011, 10:00:50 AM
Norma,
I saw this episode on TV a couple of weeks ago. His formula & workflow for pizza ripiena is the same as his
Standard pizza. He's beyond passionate. I watched an episode a few weeks back where he stuffed a pizza with a whole raw chicken (bones & all) & baked it to perfection.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on May 07, 2011, 10:26:31 AM
Norma,
I saw this episode on TV a couple of weeks ago. His formula & workflow for pizza ripiena is the same as his
Standard pizza. He's beyond passionate. I watched an episode a few weeks back where he stuffed a pizza with a whole raw chicken (bones & all) & baked it to perfection.

Matt

Thanks Matt for telling me and other members that Bonci's workflow and formula are the same as his standard pizza.  :) I also agree he is beyond passionate.  I love to see how he works.  He is a master in making pizza, bread, and so much more.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on May 11, 2011, 06:40:47 AM
I hope someone is going to keep this thread alive throughout the summer while John D & I are busy trying to burn our backyards down. :P

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on May 11, 2011, 06:53:49 AM
I hope someone is going to keep this thread alive throughout the summer while John D & I are busy trying to burn our backyards down. :P

Matt

Chau said he was going to give this style a try, but I highly doubt his attention will be on pan pizza for some time to come  ;)

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on May 11, 2011, 08:08:39 AM
Recipe: Artichoke-crusted bread, Gabriele Bonci on YouTube if anyone is interested. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK29nqG45c8&feature=relmfu

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on May 14, 2011, 06:45:43 PM
Ok, I haven't fired my oven since September & am getting kind of pissed.  Either it's too cold or raining every weekend.  Anyhow,  I refreshed my starter yesterday morning, built up the biga last night & made the dough at 5:00am this morning.  I wasn't sure what kind of pizza I was making, so I settled on a 70% hydration which is a breeze in the spiral.  As a point of comparison, at 70% hydrated dough in the spiral is as easy to handle as a 55% dough in a KA.   In the spirit of keeping one of the best threads on the forum alive, this was the end result.  The main difference from my previous Pizzarium doughs apart from the hydration was that there was no semola in this dough, 100% Hard Spring Wheat.  I'm really happy with the result; as good, if not better than the 78-80% doughs & much easier to handle.  I may be onto something here ; 8)  In the words of my friend Bonci "meraviglioso"!

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on May 14, 2011, 07:22:56 PM
Awesome, awesome, awesome. I am definitely revisiting a Pizzarium dough next weekend. Did you notice a difference in the tenderness at this hydration and with the single flour type?

I just got back from dinner out, and now I want pizza. Your product is so spot on.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on May 14, 2011, 07:32:28 PM
Awesome, awesome, awesome. I am definitely revisiting a Pizzarium dough next weekend. Did you notice a difference in the tenderness at this hydration and with the single flour type?

I just got back from dinner out, and now I want pizza. Your product is so spot on.

John

Thanks alot John.  There was a big difference in the texture flour wise. Semola makes the dough really soft & delicate.  I'm thinking I prefer it better without. As far as the hydration goes, there was no difference. I'm convinced at this point that the end result is totally dependent on the handling.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2011, 09:26:16 PM
Matt,

Your Pizzarium pie looks awesome.  ;D  I am glad you are keeping this thread alive, and John is going to join you soon.  Your crumb look perfect!  At 70% hydration it is amazing the great crumb you did achieve.  I do also believe it has to do with handling of dough how this type of pie turns out.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: BrickStoneOven on May 14, 2011, 10:11:51 PM
Matt those look great. Do you make them in your home oven or the counter top?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on May 15, 2011, 05:10:15 AM
Thank you Norma & David.

David, these were done in my home oven using blue steel pans.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: tinroofrusted on May 15, 2011, 01:37:30 PM
Hey now, those are beautiful pictures.  I actually made a foccaccia yesterday with an 80% hydration dough that I fermented for about ten hours on the counter. It came out really good and I have been munching on the leftovers this morning.  Sadly I neglected to take a photo of it.  But I think I am finally starting to get the hang of the dough handling that Mr. Pizzarium is trying to convey to his students.  You just really have to handle the dough gently. 

Thanks for sharing your photos. And I agree this has really been a great and instructive thread.  I've learned a ton from reading it. 
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on May 17, 2011, 11:32:08 PM
Hey everybody what's up. I've been away for a while, having put all my pizza-making projects on extended hiatus for the past few, exceptionally dry winter months during which all my flours dried out and my pies were coming out as hard as rock. Now that spring is in high bloom and there's some measure of humidity in the atmosphere, things are normalling and I'm able to bake again, but not without a few glitches and problem areas.

Has anybody else experienced problems with severe blistering in the form of "hills" forming on the top of the pie. In my case, it's so severe that the hill formations push right through the toppings, leaving exposed areas of bare skin that burn before the pie is done baking. I used to think that this was an artifact of overkneading, but it happened even when I deliberately underkneaded the dough in a few experiments to test the theory. I tend to form my Pizzarium doughs in a nonchalant and very aggressive manner these days; maybe I need to stop casually manhandling them and be more subtle and considerate.

Thoughts?


JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on May 18, 2011, 05:51:35 AM
Hey everybody what's up. I've been away for a while, having put all my pizza-making projects on extended hiatus for the past few, exceptionally dry winter months during which all my flours dried out and my pies were coming out as hard as rock. Now that spring is in high bloom and there's some measure of humidity in the atmosphere, things are normalling and I'm able to bake again, but not without a few glitches and problem areas.

Has anybody else experienced problems with severe blistering in the form of "hills" forming on the top of the pie. In my case, it's so severe that the hill formations push right through the toppings, leaving exposed areas of bare skin that burn before the pie is done baking. I used to think that this was an artifact of overkneading, but it happened even when I deliberately underkneaded the dough in a few experiments to test the theory. I tend to form my Pizzarium doughs in a nonchalant and very aggressive manner these days; maybe I need to stop casually manhandling them and be more subtle and considerate.

Thoughts?


JLP

Jose,
Welcome back.  Those large are pockets are a result of the stretching.  Try to gentle pat down the dough on a well floured surface until it's almost the size of the teglia before transferring it.  After you transfer the dough, gently push all the air out (from top to bottom) with a flat hand.  These large blisters will form in thin areas so try your best to try to gently even the dough out while pushing out the trapped air from underneath.  If that doesn't work then you can lift that section of dough from the teglia & place it back down while using your other had to push out any air. 

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on May 18, 2011, 11:55:44 AM
Thanks Matt- now that you mention it, on my last pie there was a big thin spot full of air. Should have been a red flag. Next time out, I'll try patting any such areas down with a flat hand.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: scott r on July 03, 2011, 11:49:39 PM
I just wanted to put out a major thank you to matthew, who really sparked my interest in this amazing style of pizza with this thread, and lent a very strong guiding hand to me with his recipe.   I changed a few things that seemed like they would be good for me (poolish and higher oven temp), but I have to say, thanks to his help I was able to make a really stellar pizza on the first try.    I (temporarily) put the starter aside a while ago to try to work on my poolish technique, and I have to say, while it may not be quite as good, having that extra acidity in there really does give pizza a nice crispness that I love even if it does lack slightly in flavor (compared to if I had used a starter).     This was a 78% hydration dough with 20% of the flour in the poolish.  The pizza was cooked at 615 degrees in my italian electric oven.   Again, matthew, I can't thank you enough, and my family is now requesting this pie as much as they are neapolitan and coal oven styles.  
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: scott r on July 04, 2011, 12:23:52 AM
oops, I meant 78% hydration!   amended above

Also, I wanted to add how I love that with this style pizza you can use a very wet sauce.    It can give a really great flavor thats hard to achieve with faster baked pizzas where the sauce needs to be a bit thicker.   Most mozzarella also tastes better melted slower (at least the ones easily obtainable to me where I live.    I love this pizza!!
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on July 04, 2011, 07:28:30 AM
Scott - You nailed this one right off the bat! It looks unbelievable. What was the flour you ended up using? And did you use your spiral mixer?

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on July 04, 2011, 07:59:16 AM
Scott,

Your first Pizzarium attempt looks excellent.  ;D Your crumb looks so moist and feathery light.  I also would be interested in knowing the kind of flour you used and if you used a room temperature ferment. 

Great job!

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on July 04, 2011, 08:14:34 AM
Scott,
My pleasure buddy, absolutely beautiful!  It was great to finally speak to you.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: scott r on July 04, 2011, 08:59:19 AM
I used harvest king (also known as better for bread).    It was actually a somewhat bad batch of flour, and with every recipe I used it in the dough ended up lighter in color and slightly lacking in texture from where it should be.  Interestingly this was the only style/batch of pizza I that turned out ok with this bag of flour, so I think this is a forgiving and robust recipe.    I recently got a bag of ubleached/unbromated all trumps that has been absolutely amazing with every pizza I make, so im looking forward to trying this recipe again with this flour.   Im thinking that the high gluten nature might be good for this style, possibly with a portion of 00 mixed in.   Yes I did use my spiral mixer, but I am not sold on it yet.   I for sure have swtiched back to my bosch for anything close to the 60% hydration range, but I have a feeling the spiral mixer shines above the others for high hydrations.    
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: scott r on July 08, 2011, 12:05:59 PM
norma, I missed part of your question.   This dough was refrigerated for about 20 hours, then allowed to rise at room temp for a few hours after that.   
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on July 08, 2011, 04:40:39 PM
norma, I missed part of your question.   This dough was refrigerated for about 20 hours, then allowed to rise at room temp for a few hours after that.   

Scott,

Thanks for your reply!   :)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: RamirOk on July 18, 2011, 02:25:35 PM
Hi, I'm new here and I've been trying to make this style (my favorite) for several weeks and I have some troubles in getting a even brown bottom.

I don't know what is causing that some parts of the dough get burn and others stay white.

I've been using the recipe that had previously written here

Flour (100%)
Water (70%) a little less water because I had many problems without a mixer, like 60% water
IDY (.7%)
Salt (2%)
Oil (4%)

My method is to pre-bake the dough for 2 minutes with the oven at the maximum and then put the ingredients for the return to oven for 6 minutes when the cheese starts to burn.
You can see the pan that I use in the images below, is a 12 x 12 black pan.

Some of the images below.
Thanks and sorry for my english.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: scott r on July 18, 2011, 09:08:27 PM
for me its very important to have a LONG preheat of a stone.   If I don't use a stone, or my preheat isn't long enough, I get dough that looks like that.   ALso, make sure you are not trapping any air under your dough when you are panning it.   If you do steam will lift up sections of the dough and they will no longer be in contact with the pan.   Good luck! 
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on July 18, 2011, 11:00:05 PM
RamirOk:

What temperature are you baking them at?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: RamirOk on July 19, 2011, 01:37:42 PM
for me its very important to have a LONG preheat of a stone.   If I don't use a stone, or my preheat isn't long enough, I get dough that looks like that.   ALso, make sure you are not trapping any air under your dough when you are panning it.   If you do steam will lift up sections of the dough and they will no longer be in contact with the pan.   Good luck! 

I stop using the stone for this type of pizza because the bottom was heating up too quickly and burn before all the cheese was melted.

I preheat the oven for half an hour.

RamirOk:

What temperature are you baking them at?

I put my oven at maximum temperature (580įF)



I was thinking of stopping the pre-bake and put the toppings from the beginning and when the cheese is starting to melt taking it out of the pan and put it directly on the stone for 1 minute or 2.

What do you think?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on July 19, 2011, 08:44:29 PM
If I were you, I'd try baking them at a lower temperature for a longer period of time and see what happens.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: teglia on July 23, 2011, 01:36:08 PM
Hello everyone, first time poster here and let me say these teglia pizza's you are making look great. I only made a couple of pies and am currently making a batch of dough right now.
Formula is
100% Flour (High Gluten Flour)
1% Fresh Yeast
95% Water
2.6% Salt

Procedure
Mix all the flour and 80% water until combined by hand and autolyse for 30 minutes.
After 20 minutes i mix the yeast in the water then wait until the 30 minutes are up and add salt to water mix then add to dough mixture.
Then i squeeze the dough until combines and then flop it on top of itself for about a minute. Then i do about 4 stretch and folds depending how things are going along every 30 minutes.
Then i cold ferment for 24-48 hours pending on how long i want to wait or if the wife decides she doesnt want to make dinner i use it ahead of schedule (bad i no).
I take the dough out after 24 hours and do a quick stretch and fold, then when dough is ready for final proof i take it out of the fridge assess how it is if it needs another stretch i will do it. Otherwise i shape it into a rectangular blob after about 45-60 minutes then let sit for 3 hours. Then i shape and place in pan to let sit for 3-5 hours depending on my schedule.
Then i bake.


If anyone has any recommendations let me know I haven't plunged into preferment's  yet but i plan on very soon. Also i have a question some bread recipes say to do a turn, what is the technique i looked on the web but couldn't find it. Also could anyone point me to an article on using sourdough im looking around and they all say the same thing without really going into depth. I'm relatively new to baking so im not an expert.
Thanks a lot.



**Update**
dough feels awesome will post pictures later tonight.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: teglia on July 27, 2011, 09:09:05 PM
Pictures of tonight's bake this one was 85% hydration and 2.5 % salt next time i will add oil and add a couple of techniques many members on this forum helped me out with. This is my fourth attempt at this style of pizza im very new to baking.
Next time i need to work on getting the dough even as you can see the dough isn't even thickness. Also i will switch from bottom to top with broiler because top didnt cook long enough but there was a good crunch and the pieces with good air pockets tasted awesome guest loved it but im nowhere satisfied constructive criticism is welcome and wanted.
Matt
http://s1116.photobucket.com/albums/k579/teglia/
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: evilwhiskas on July 28, 2011, 07:50:40 AM
Hi,

I've read over this thread, seen so many awesome photos of delicious looking pizza al taglio!

Is there any chance someone could post their step by step instructions of how they made their successful pizza? Including ingrediants, quantities, everything you can think of...

I've tried myself and it was a bit of a catastrophe, the dough was so sticky it just stuck to my hands and everything, it didn't raise very well int he oven, I just want to replicate this pizza sooooo much after having sampled many strip of it in rome!

Thanks,

Nick.

edit: also is there a simple calculation I can use for how much dough I should be using dependant on pan size for an al taglio pizza?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on July 28, 2011, 08:41:21 AM
Matt - Fantastic job on your first attempt. Getting the top browned and achieving and even height takes practice - keep at it, I have not mastered it either. Make sure when you flip the dough into the pan that you do not have any really thin spots. Place the dough in the pan and gently tap your fingers from the center outward to make an even thickness across the pan. You might also consider dropping your hydration until you get a feel for the dough.

Nick - There are many, many variations posted in this thread, but here is a starting point. The dough is hard to work with if you have never handled high hydration dough. When shaping, use lots of bench flour and a dough scraper to help.

Flour (100%) <- a mixture of 50/50 AP and bread flour
Water (78%)
Salt (2.5%)
CY (1%) <- or .5% IDY
Oil (3%)

Combine 90% of the formula water, flour and CY until fully incorporated. Let sit 20 minutes. Squeeze in salt and rest of water. Do four sessions of stretch and folds** with 10 minute rests in between. 24 hours in the fridge. Ball into oblong shapes and proof for 2 hours at room temp. Around 8 minutes at 500 on the bottom rack, then topped plus another 5-8 minutes on top rack.

**A stretch and fold session entails having the dough mass in a high sided container. Slide your hand down into a corner, grab the bottom of the dough and gently stretch it straight up, pull it over the mass, and then push it down into the opposite corner. Turn the container, and repeat with the next corner. Do it for each corner.

You can use the site dough calculator using a Thickness Factor of .13, and plug in your pan size:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html

Here is a pictorial reference (disregarding the recipe):

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg132462.html#msg132462

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: teglia on July 28, 2011, 09:14:21 AM
Thanks John i will drop the hydration because handling this dough right now is extremely difficult for me and i think it will benefit from softer handling more than the actual higher hydration until i get better at. Next attempt i am going to try the bowl S&F. Also going to add 3% oil to the dough.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: teglia on July 29, 2011, 05:25:27 PM
Another attempt at this style off pizza much much much much better. Thanks to everyone who helped me i listened and the result you can see in the pictures. Light airy and delicious. Not done here going to keep working on handling this dough.
http://s1116.photobucket.com/albums/k579/teglia/
let me know what you think.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on July 29, 2011, 07:41:43 PM
Another attempt at this style off pizza much much much much better. Thanks to everyone who helped me i listened and the result you can see in the pictures. Light airy and delicious. Not done here going to keep working on handling this dough.
http://s1116.photobucket.com/albums/k579/teglia/
let me know what you think.

teglia,

Your are doing well for you second bake.  :) Glad to hear your pie was light, airy and delicious!

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: teglia on August 01, 2011, 02:33:01 PM
I'm not sure if this is a repost but this is awesome.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY7x2ffGJ1w&feature=channel_video_title
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on August 01, 2011, 02:42:38 PM
I'm not sure if this is a repost but this is awesome.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY7x2ffGJ1w&feature=channel_video_title

The Bosco videos have been posted in the thread, and they are legendary. This is my favorite:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24RY9Zc5Ldo&feature=relmfu

John

PS. I have that size pan now!
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: teglia on August 01, 2011, 02:45:34 PM
The way he works is awesome, its effortless for him.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on August 01, 2011, 02:49:11 PM
His hydration must be in the 80's. See how he takes that 10x6 or so slab of dough and flips it up: by the time it hits the pan it is 20 inches long. Amazingly fluid and graceful. My biggest problem is that I get thin spots during the flip. The solution is much larger pans and not pressing out the dough so much on the board.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Mmmph on August 01, 2011, 03:19:02 PM
In one of the earlier Bosco videos, someone asked about hydration, bosco replied 95%. A couple of months later Bosco replied 90%. Wow...Kind of like flour jello.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: plainslicer on August 01, 2011, 03:19:54 PM
Here he says it's 95%: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK4A7f-avEs&NR=1

edit: oops, didn't see Mmmph's post while I was writing mine.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: teglia on August 02, 2011, 10:18:14 PM
Is he stretching out the dough just to show its elasticity?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on August 02, 2011, 10:32:37 PM
Is he stretching out the dough just to show its elasticity?

That's right, it's just a demonstration, not part of the workflow.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: teglia on August 02, 2011, 11:22:29 PM
As respect to fermentation would you recommend doing a bulk cold fermentation? Also when putting the dough away into the fridge do you roll the dough into a ball or just straight in the way it is?
Also when pulling the dough out of the fridge would you recommend i shape similar to this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeCHO4Y3fDo&feature=related
or how?
Currently i was simply placing the dough into the fridge as is, and then when i pulled it out of the fridge i just left it in the container and then just shaped it after a couple of hours into the pan. What should i be doing?
sorry just a newbie trying to improve.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: parallei on August 02, 2011, 11:48:06 PM
Quote
As respect to fermentation would you recommend doing a bulk cold fermentation?

Yes.  As John (dellavecchia) pointed out in his recipe recommendation, this works well.

Quote
Also when putting the dough away into the fridge do you roll the dough into a ball or just straight in the way it is?

If you're doing an 80% + hydration, it will not ball up well.  Just cover the bowl after the turns/folds and into the fridge.

Quote
Also when pulling the dough out of the fridge would you recommend i shape similar to this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeCHO4Y3fDo&feature=related
or how?

I let it come to room temp in the bowl for an hour or so then, on a well floured surface, fold it over into an oblong shape (a bench scraper really helps here), flour the top a bit and cover with a cloth and let sit for 1-2 hours.  Then form/stretch a bit and into the pan.  If you look thru this thread, you'll see photos of the shape folks use for the final rise before stretching the dough out.


Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: teglia on August 11, 2011, 04:18:06 PM
Slowly but surely. Pictures are to big so i need to attach on photobucket. Its weird when its in the oven it inflates like a ballon but after being out of the oven for 3 minutes it deflates. Why is that?

Overnight cold ferment. 5 S&F every 20 95% hydration.
http://s1116.photobucket.com/albums/k579/teglia/pizza/?action=view&current=DSC00986.jpg#!
Lemme know what you think. Also what are some of your favorite toppings for this style of pizza? This one is Spicy capicola, smoked mozzarella and mozzarella.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: RamirOk on August 11, 2011, 07:34:27 PM
That pizza look amazing teglia!
Nice open crumb
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: teglia on August 14, 2011, 08:55:04 PM
Another batch made, i actually transported this dough and it seemed like it deflated from the drive, but crumb was still decent and light.
Buying the book tartine to learn some more about this bread and maybe transition to sourdough. Also buying a gelato maker thinking this will be a good treat for when guests come. This pizza was made for my grandmother as well she loved it and i loved her oven it preheated so quickly and i loved the way it baked only stayed under the broiler for about 2 min when mine takes 5 minutes.
http://s1116.photobucket.com/albums/k579/teglia/pizza2/
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: teglia on August 17, 2011, 08:45:30 PM
Another batch i made tonight crust was best so far did S&F every 15 min for a total of 9 total S&F was going to do 8 but wasn't were i wanted it to be. This pie was delicious and is great for my vegetarian friends. Della my friends thank you a lot for sharing with me your zucchini tips came out great. Not visually appealing so much but delicious. I need to work on making my pizza's more visually appealing.

Didn't do anything different just the amount of S&F and the frequency of them.
http://s1116.photobucket.com/albums/k579/teglia/pizza3/
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: teglia on August 22, 2011, 05:45:09 PM
Just made another batch of dough yesterday same baker %'s but will do a 48 hour cold ferment to see what the difference is with a longer fermentation. This weeks toppings will be San Marzano tomato's, chŤvre, smoked mozzarella, caramelized onions ( was a huge hit last week) and arugula dressed with a little EVOO and a sprinkle of salt. I'm hoping the zesty-ness of the arugula and sweetness of the caramelized onions go well with each other.
Teglia
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: teglia on August 27, 2011, 01:22:00 PM
Regarding to the actual bake for the people who parbake, do you let the pizza rest in between the first cooking and topping or do you just bake take out of the oven and then top then place back in the oven?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on August 27, 2011, 03:02:49 PM
Regarding to the actual bake for the people who parbake, do you let the pizza rest in between the first cooking and topping or do you just bake take out of the oven and then top then place back in the oven?

The latter of the 2.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: P-TSAR on September 06, 2011, 04:03:45 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/2011/sep/06/rome-pizza-school-gabriele-bonci

interesting video
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on September 07, 2011, 09:59:43 AM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/2011/sep/06/rome-pizza-school-gabriele-bonci

interesting video

Thanks for posting that, it was a great look at how Bonci serves the pizza - and the oblong pans he is using.

There is a chill in the air, and that means it is almost teglia season!

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on September 30, 2011, 10:55:31 PM
I've been playing around with severely hydrated doughs for the last few months. The last one I made was around 95% hydration (made entirely by hand without machine assistance). Some interesting anecdotal results:

-It's really hard to develop the gluten in the super-high ranges; I knead and knead with like four rigeneri and the dough still ends up soft, very extensible, and with a uniform bready crumb even when baked at 550. 75% hydration with the same flour and kneading regimen would produce a pie with terrific springback and massive wild alveoles even when baked at 450.

-With an 11-12 minute bake at 550, the super-hydro pies, although well-browned, are actually soft and floppy instead of crispy, although they get nice and crispy (sometimes to the point of crunchy, like the American Sicilians and Grandma pies and the like) when re-heated.

-Finally, they taste better when re-heated- and I'm not the only one who's noticed. Straight out of the oven, they're kind of overly soft and bland; re-heated, they have a nice wheaty-toasty flavour in addition to the crisp/crunch.

-It's fun to make these pies entirely by hand once you realize that the mass of batter cannot eat you if you shield your fingers with a generous coating of olive oil. There is a Nietschean pleasure to be had in using brute force to impose form on formlessness and shape on shapelessness.

Nonetheless, for all that I think I'm going to be scaling back to 80% or even less in the future. Will post pics of any thread-worthy exemplars.

Finally, I've found a source for some Tipo 0 flour (Farina per Pizza, from Molino Pizzuti). The blurb on their website boasts that "La farina per pizza Ť una farina messa a punto per il confezionamento della pizza secondo la vecchia tradizione casalinga. Essa dŗ alla pizza tutti i sapori, pur facendole mantenere uno spessore adeguato che le conferisce croccantezza e morbidezza . Tale farina ha necessitŗ di lievitare dalle 2 alle 4 ore." I get the feeling in my gut that this stuff may be too soft for a pizza in teglia, but at $2.50 for a 1-kilo bag I'm definitely going to give it a go very soon.

-JLP
   
   
   
 
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on October 14, 2011, 01:34:36 PM
Back to a lower and more manageable hydration level, here are some rather blurry pics of some slices of today's lunch.

Formula:

Flour: 100% Canadian Robin Hood AP
Hydration: 70%
Salt: 2%
IDY: .25%
Oil: 4%

Used the mixer to incorporate and ball the dough, then 5 minutes of push-and-folds spread out by two 15-minute rigeneri. 48 hour cold rise, 2.5 hours on the counter, pressed out, topped with passata and some green pepper strips, then baked directly on pizza stone @ 550 for eleven minutes.

When I noticed how much this dough fought being pressed into service, I knew it was going to have a good oven spring and highly open crumb- but without heavy toppings to regulate the spring, it sprang wildly and uncontrollably. Oh well- the practical lesson to take away is that, when making a pizza rossa in this style, don't overdo it with the kneading. I'm still trying to work out a reliable test for this.

The depth of browning was impressive, in fact more than I wanted. Another practical lesson is that Canadian AP has a seemingly infinite range of potential gluten development; you can dial up as little or as much as you need. I suppose that's the reason why it's so widely used to the exclusion of every other type of flour up here (I invariably end up using it notwithstanding the research I've put into other types, which I always plan to buy, but never seem to get around to).

The finished pie had a thin crispy outer shell, and a very soft inside that nonetheless was toothsome and had good pull.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on October 14, 2011, 01:35:14 PM
Second pic:
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on October 14, 2011, 05:05:15 PM
Beautiful crumb Jose! I was thinking about doing a teglia this weekend, and you just made up my mind. I am going to try a lower hydration as well to see if I get some of your results.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on October 14, 2011, 06:05:27 PM
Jose,

Nice looking crumb!  :) 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on October 14, 2011, 09:29:54 PM
Thanks John and Norma. I actually found it easier to get a highly open crumb at 70% than I have been recently (with different flour) with doughs at 90% or even higher. On the other hand, I think I may have just been under-working those doughs.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jackie Tran on October 15, 2011, 09:15:09 AM
Sorry I haven't been following this thread but wanted to say that your crumb looks awesome JLP.  It sounds like you have made big improvements since the start of this thread and that you have a great flour on your hands.

Chau
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on October 15, 2011, 04:26:39 PM
Thanks Tran. Just a year ago, I didn't even think it was possible to make a pizza like that with the flour I'm using. Then again, in another thread here somebody manged to make a convincing focaccia with 00 flour, hydrated at 110%, and baked at 450 (!), which I wouldn't have thought possible the day before yesterday.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on October 16, 2011, 04:59:43 PM
On the heels of Johnís same-day teglia in the other thread, hereís a few pics of mine.

The formula:
Flour: 100% (Robin Hood AP)
Water: About 80%
IDY: About .25%
Salt: 2%
Oil: 3.6%

Thickness Factor: 0.12

Mixed in stand mixer until bowl cleaned, less than 3 minutes of push-and-fold hand kneading, 10 minute rest, two minutes more kneading, 17 minute rest, two more minutes. Then it was put in a Tupperware bowl and left to rise on the counter for 3 hours and 40 minutes. Topped with canned plum tomatoes that I ground in a food processor (to which I then added some tomato paste I didnít want to go to waste, some sugar, and some garlic powder); canned sardine filets sprinkled with coarse salt; canned tuna in oil (well drained); some green pepper and red onion strips; and a leftover slice of pork roast that I cubed. Then everything was off to the oven, middle rack, no stone, at 450 for 21 minutes. Finally, it was drizzled with EVO and dusted with dried thym, basil, and oregano.

This piece had an excellent oven spring and well-controlled alveolation. Where I was expecting a thin crispy outer shell, it had a crust more like a baguette or artisanal loaf than any pizza Iíve ever made. This crust was crunchy, but not hard, yielding easily to the tooth. The taste was wheaty and exquisite, especially the cornicone.

The dough was much more extensible and compliant than the one I made on Friday, which had less hydration, and was stubborn as a mule, even though it wasnít worked as much.

The toppings tasted very rich together and cheese wasnít conspicuous in its absence.

I really hope I can reproduce todayís results. I spent most of the summer fighting backwards and making pizzas in teglia that were just terrible (so much so that I didnít even bother to photograph them or do any write-ups).

JLP

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on October 16, 2011, 05:00:32 PM
Typical cross sections:
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on October 16, 2011, 06:58:21 PM
Fantastic crumb Jose. Much better than my 00 effort. I want to give it a try with some bread flour when I get it in.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on October 20, 2011, 12:40:25 PM
Article on slice.seriouseats.com from Nick Solares, that went to taste pies at Pizzarium.

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/10/rome_pizzarium-20111020.html#continued

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on November 09, 2011, 06:59:31 PM
Slice just did a report on Roman pizza:

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/11/scotts-pizza-chronicles-roman-invasion.html#continued (http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/11/scotts-pizza-chronicles-roman-invasion.html#continued)

For some reason Pizzarium wasn't mentioned. Anyways, of great interest is the pic of the undercarriage of a Forno pizza. You can actually see some cracks in it- now that must have been one hell of a crispy pie.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Greenline on November 16, 2011, 04:46:32 PM
Hi, this is a wonderful thread and the level of the pizzas posted here is really amazing. It is not easy to add something to what has been already said but let me try and sorry in advance if this is old news.

An important point to consider is that Bonci does not use wheat flour for his dough, but rather "farro". This makes a lot of sense considering Bonci's love for quality and for ingredients that have ancient roots in our territory (farro was the most important cereal in ancient Rome). He said so many times, this is one link I could find (see comment #9, probably needs translation):

http://www.scattidigusto.it/2011/08/20/pizza-a-taglio-bonci-fa-proseliti-a-roma-apre-farro-zero/

Of course nobody knows what's exacly inside Pizzarium's dough but at least it's fun to guess. My current guess is spelt mixed with "Antichi Sapori" flour from Mulino Marino (which is itself a mix of spelt, einkorn, Kamut and rye). The dough color is not pure white and has black spots in it, which also says something about how refined the flour is.

I completely missed this point until recently, so I could do just a couple of tries with these "alternative" flours. However, I think the results are amazing and I'm starting to regret the eight packs of hard wheat flour I have already bought and stored in the kitchen. Compared to that, spelt is a weak flour with short gluten but in practical terms I had to change very little in my usual method. The flip side of this is cost, spelt is about 4.50 euro/kg here but it must be a local thing because I know that in Germany it can be found for as little as 0.90 euro/kg. For comparison, organic hard wheat costs about half as much.

Anyway, here's my first attempt with 50% spelt (type "0", organic) and 50% Kamut. No fats either in the dough or while cooking yet it was already delicious:
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on November 16, 2011, 07:47:29 PM
Beautiful! Can you let us know what yeast you are using, and your workflow?

I also agree he is using ancient grains - I have tried a few batches with Mulino Marino Enkir at various percentages with varied results.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on November 16, 2011, 10:22:14 PM
Alessandro,

I agree with John, beautiful!  :)

I wonder if you know anything about einkorn flour. http://www.jovialfoods.com/einkorn-flour.html  A man was at market yesterday, and told me that einkorn flour is the oldest flour there is, and he told me he makes amazing breads with the einkorn flour.  He told me Whole Foods sells the einkorn flour in the US.  Do you need to mix other flour with the einkorn flour, or do I have the name of the flour wrong?

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on November 17, 2011, 12:30:55 PM
Of course nobody knows what's exacly inside Pizzarium's dough but at least it's fun to guess. My current guess is spelt mixed with "Antichi Sapori" flour from Mulino Marino (which is itself a mix of spelt, einkorn, Kamut and rye). The dough color is not pure white and has black spots in it, which also says something about how refined the flour is.

A few months back I read on a blog that he was teaching his students to use a blend of 80% 00 flour and 20% farro, but now I can't find the link.

Your own slices look outstanding.

-JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Greenline on November 17, 2011, 05:56:04 PM
The process I followed is this. 200g of water in a large bowl, add 2.5g of fresh yeast (the one you have to keep in the fridge), add just a little bit of sugar (few grains) and 220g of spelt (type "0", organic). When it's all mixed stop for 10-15 minutes and let it rest. Add 120g of water and 220g of Kamut (type "0") and knead until is solid "enough" (no need for perfection). Stop again if needed but Kamut is terrific at absorbing water! Add 30g of water and 10g of salt, knead again until all water has been absorbed. The technique for kneading in the bowl is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCyMkn-rahs

When the dough is good enough, it's necessary to measure its temperature. It was about 24.5įC in my case, which means I do one hour rest. During this time I perform 5 "rigeneri" like Bonci shows here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zsa-dyBBqkM

It then went in the fridge at 4įC or close to that for about 15 hours. Out of the fridge I do a couple of folds like here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oyg8K6J8QM

The dough shape now is more or less square, like my pan. It stayed 5 hours there, then it is put into the pan like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24RY9Zc5Ldo

My pan is about 36x36.5 cm, iron. It goes into the oven preheated at 250įC (480įF) for about 15 minutes, first on the very bottom of the oven (9'30") then about in the middle until done (I give more time when I put tomato on the pizza, in that case it is about 17 minutes or slightly more).

I don't know how good this process is for spelt and Kamut, I used it because it's just what I do for standard wheat flour.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Greenline on November 17, 2011, 06:20:03 PM
I also read that einkorn is the oldest grain we have, the only one with only 14 chromosomes vs. the 42 of "modern" grains. Spelt has 42 and emmer has 28 (Mulino Marino does not sell emmer). Seeds of einkorn have been reported inside egyptian tombs! :o
I got some technical information here:

http://aaccnet.org/cerealchemistry/backissues/1993/70_298.pdf

The content is interesting but old, I believe that einkorn currently sold by Mulino Marino (called Enkir) or other mills has now better characteristics for baking. Still have to try it though!

I think that when Bonci teaches pizza he uses a simplified process and easy-to-find ingredients that can guarantee a good result in any case, but that is not what he uses. ;) For sure he started with standard hard flour, then later he abandoned it for farro and other ancient grains.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on November 17, 2011, 07:20:12 PM
The process I followed is this. 200g of water in a large bowl, add 2.5g of fresh yeast (the one you have to keep in the fridge), add just a little bit of sugar (few grains) and 220g of spelt (type "0", organic). When it's all mixed stop for 10-15 minutes and let it rest. Add 120g of water and 220g of Kamut (type "0") and knead until is solid "enough" (no need for perfection). Stop again if needed but Kamut is terrific at absorbing water! Add 30g of water and 10g of salt, knead again until all water has been absorbed. The technique for kneading in the bowl is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCyMkn-rahs

When the dough is good enough, it's necessary to measure its temperature. It was about 24.5įC in my case, which means I do one hour rest. During this time I perform 5 "rigeneri" like Bonci shows here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zsa-dyBBqkM

It then went in the fridge at 4įC or close to that for about 15 hours. Out of the fridge I do a couple of folds like here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oyg8K6J8QM

The dough shape now is more or less square, like my pan. It stayed 5 hours there, then it is put into the pan like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24RY9Zc5Ldo

My pan is about 36x36.5 cm, iron. It goes into the oven preheated at 250įC (480įF) for about 15 minutes, first on the very bottom of the oven (9'30") then about in the middle until done (I give more time when I put tomato on the pizza, in that case it is about 17 minutes or slightly more).

I don't know how good this process is for spelt and Kamut, I used it because it's just what I do for standard wheat flour.


I also read that einkorn is the oldest grain we have, the only one with only 14 chromosomes vs. the 42 of "modern" grains. Spelt has 42 and emmer has 28 (Mulino Marino does not sell emmer). Seeds of einkorn have been reported inside egyptian tombs! :o
I got some technical information here:

http://aaccnet.org/cerealchemistry/backissues/1993/70_298.pdf

The content is interesting but old, I believe that einkorn currently sold by Mulino Marino (called Enkir) or other mills has now better characteristics for baking. Still have to try it though!

I think that when Bonci teaches pizza he uses a simplified process and easy-to-find ingredients that can guarantee a good result in any case, but that is not what he uses. ;) For sure he started with standard hard flour, then later he abandoned it for farro and other ancient grains.

Alessandro,

Thanks for your formula and workflow! They are much appreciated.  
I have to get back to trying a Pizzarium dough again.

I wondered when that man told me Tuesday that einkorn was the oldest grain if that was true.  He also told me the grain had one of the highest protein contents.  Your link to the pdf. document does show what protein einkorn is, but I really don't understand those numbers.

I looked online and think I can purchase the einkorn flour at a Health Food Store near me.  I think I will have to try the einkorn flour out alone or in combination with another flour for a Pizzarium  pizza.  Since I really like old stuff, it would be interesting to try the einkorn flour.

The man told me Tuesday that the  Icemanís Last meal did include einkorn and he had some in his hand when he died. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/iceman-last-meal.html  and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96tzi_the_Iceman
That sure was a long time ago.   :o

Thanks again for your reply!

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on November 18, 2011, 06:31:07 AM
The process I followed is this. 200g of water in a large bowl, add 2.5g of fresh yeast (the one you have to keep in the fridge), add just a little bit of sugar (few grains) and 220g of spelt (type "0", organic). When it's all mixed stop for 10-15 minutes and let it rest. Add 120g of water and 220g of Kamut (type "0") and knead until is solid "enough" (no need for perfection). Stop again if needed but Kamut is terrific at absorbing water! Add 30g of water and 10g of salt, knead again until all water has been absorbed.

Greenline - Thank you for posting your formula and workflow. I especially liked the links to the different folding techniques. For those interested, here are the rounded percents:

Flours (100%)
Water (80%)
Fresh Yeast (.57%)
Salt (2.3%)

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on November 19, 2011, 12:30:08 PM
Norma,
I have looked into purchasing the einkorn wheat flour as well. From what I read over at Mulino Marino's website, their Buratto, spelt and enkir wheat are all pretty well refined and sifted to remove most of bran. I know the brand vitaspelt does sell a bran-less spelt flour which they call white spelt which I used a while back in a pie I feature on MPM.
Last night I'd did a little experiment with a fine mesh sifter on some whole wheat flour to see if I could get something similar to M. Marino brand Buratto. On the left is the whole wheat, the center is the wheat flour I sifted, and the right is the Buratto. The one I made could use one more round of sifting to decrease the particle size but it looks like this is the right direction to recreating Bonci's style of bianca flour at home.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on November 19, 2011, 12:32:33 PM
Here's my stab at an English translation of the now-legendary Bonci post on the virtues of farro. He seems to be a rather, umm, "enthusiastic" chap. Written in the grand tradition of fire-breathing radical manifestoes, it reads like something Karl Marx might have come up with had he become a baker instead of going into politics. Enjoy.

JLP

***

"THE FIRST INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION was the steam engine.

THE SECOND INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION: oil, electricity.

THE THIRD INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION: the harnessing of the atom.

Öafter the anti-NUCLEAR movement the story may change to what might be the fourth revolutionÖsolar power, alongside which I would also put alternative grain. Man eats grainÖto get the human machine movingÖFUEL FOR MANíS BODY NOW is to HIM as oil to the car. HOW MUCH CRAP GOES ON IN THE ďAGRICULTURAL INDUSTRYĒ for this crappy GRAIN?

FOR ME, THE CHOICE OF FARRO is total EPIC WIN.

IíM CLENCHING MY FISTS WITH JOY at the thought of Fabrizio putting alternative grain in his mixer every day.

FARRO is POLITICALÖMAKES A bunch OF GOOD THINGSÖ
Itís true because it seems that at PizzariumÖitís the same for the loaves as for the pizzaÖ

Iíve been working with faro for twenty monthsÖBUT WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?

I APPEAL TO RESTARAUTEURS.

NOW ITíS UP TO YOU.

Start with pastryÖshortbread and frolle.

FARRO FARRRO FARRRRRROOOO

Iím downright PROUD THAT FABRIZIO, after the experience of Pizzarium continued to use this grain as much as he couldÖfor me he started using it for pastry.

Then we were able to settle our differencesÖif anyÖ

NOW GO AND EAT

FARRROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOÖ."
 
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on November 20, 2011, 07:24:33 AM
Norma,
I have looked into purchasing the einkorn wheat flour as well. From what I read over at Mulino Marino's website, their Buratto, spelt and enkir wheat are all pretty well refined and sifted to remove most of bran. I know the brand vitaspelt does sell a bran-less spelt flour which they call white spelt which I used a while back in a pie I feature on MPM.
Last night I'd did a little experiment with a fine mesh sifter on some whole wheat flour to see if I could get something similar to M. Marino brand Buratto. On the left is the whole wheat, the center is the wheat flour I sifted, and the right is the Buratto. The one I made could use one more round of sifting to decrease the particle size but it looks like this is the right direction to recreating Bonci's style of bianca flour at home.

Jimmy,

Do you know it the einkorn wheat flour is high enough in protein to use alone, or does another flour have to be added with the einkorn flour to make pizza?  I donít seem to understand the information about einkorn flour.

Looks like your flour grinding experiments are going good.  I will be waiting to see more pies from you. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on November 20, 2011, 08:44:34 AM
Norma,
I just looked up the protein content for Jovial flour and it was 4g of protein per 30g of flour =13.333% so it should have plenty of protein and gluten. I did notice that Jovials website also said: "
Jovial einkorn flour is high-extraction flour at 80%, which means most of the germ and bran have been removed for lighter flour that stays fresh for longer."
I am not sure about the extraction percent for the M. Marino Enkir wheat flour. I know white flour is around 50-60% extraction, so the Jovial einkorn may need some sifting too. 
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on November 20, 2011, 08:58:24 AM
Norma,
I just looked up the protein content for Jovial flour and it was 4g of protein per 30g of flour =13.333% so it should have plenty of protein and gluten. I did notice that Jovials website also said: "
Jovial einkorn flour is high-extraction flour at 80%, which means most of the germ and bran have been removed for lighter flour that stays fresh for longer."
So this flour should be similar to the M. Marino Enkir wheat flour which is also refined as well.

Jimmy,

Thanks so much about the information about the Jovial einkorn flour.  :)  After Thanksgiving week I will purchase some and give it a try.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on November 20, 2011, 09:20:24 AM
Let us know what you think of it.
I am going to try making some bread out of the bolted wheat today. I thought about doing pizza with it but I want to examine this flour in bread first so I know the taste and texture of it, and can refine the flour or try out a different wheat flour for bolting if needed.  I am kind of a chicken when I comes to making pizza. Bad pizza makes me unhappy and so I will normally test dough recipes in bread form first before progressing to pizza.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on November 20, 2011, 11:37:13 AM
Let us know what you think of it.
I am going to try making some bread out of the bolted wheat today. I thought about doing pizza with it but I want to examine this flour in bread first so I know the taste and texture of it, and can refine the flour or try out a different wheat flour for bolting if needed.  I am kind of a chicken when I comes to making pizza. Bad pizza makes me unhappy and so I will normally test dough recipes in bread form first before progressing to pizza.

Jimmy,

When I get to purchase some of he Jovial einkorn flour I will post what I think of it. I will try it in a Pizzarium dough, or maybe with a combination of Durum flour. I had my best attempt at a Pizzarium  pizza with Durum flour.

I never heard of bolted wheat before.  Does this article explain what bolting is?  http://www.angelfire.com/journal/millbuilder/boulting.html
I would like to experiment with more breads, but I already eat enough pizza.  Your method seems to make sense to test flours in bread first before using the flours to make pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on November 20, 2011, 12:37:42 PM
Norma,
That was a pretty neat article. I guess I have never thought about the history behind flour making. But yes, that article outlines exactly what bolting is, sifting flour. In fact on the M. Mulino website it specifically says that Buratto is sifted whole wheat. So I guess it comes down to, what size screen to use, and what type of wheat flour (red, white, soft, hard, etc) will mimic the Buratto the closest. If found a large screen for sale on amazon, http://www.amazon.com/Paderno-World-Cuisine-8-Inch-Stainless-Steel/dp/B003OBXWOS/?tag=pizzamaking-20 (http://www.amazon.com/Paderno-World-Cuisine-8-Inch-Stainless-Steel/dp/B003OBXWOS/?tag=pizzamaking-20) but I think one could easily rig up something much cheaper with a trip to the hardware store. Right now I am using a fine meshed tea strainer to bolt my flour. It looks something like this: http://www.amazon.com/RSVP-Standard-Infuser-Mesh-Spoon/dp/B000F7DT2O/?tag=pizzamaking-20 (http://www.amazon.com/RSVP-Standard-Infuser-Mesh-Spoon/dp/B000F7DT2O/?tag=pizzamaking-20) :-D
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on November 20, 2011, 02:43:22 PM
Norma,
That was a pretty neat article. I guess I have never thought about the history behind flour making. But yes, that article outlines exactly what bolting is, sifting flour. In fact on the M. Mulino website it specifically says that Buratto is sifted whole wheat. So I guess it comes down to, what size screen to use, and what type of wheat flour (red, white, soft, hard, etc) will mimic the Buratto the closest. If found a large screen for sale on amazon, http://www.amazon.com/Paderno-World-Cuisine-8-Inch-Stainless-Steel/dp/B003OBXWOS/?tag=pizzamaking-20 (http://www.amazon.com/Paderno-World-Cuisine-8-Inch-Stainless-Steel/dp/B003OBXWOS/?tag=pizzamaking-20) but I think one could easily rig up something much cheaper with a trip to the hardware store. Right now I am using a fine meshed tea strainer to bolt my flour. It looks something like this: http://www.amazon.com/RSVP-Standard-Infuser-Mesh-Spoon/dp/B000F7DT2O/?tag=pizzamaking-20 (http://www.amazon.com/RSVP-Standard-Infuser-Mesh-Spoon/dp/B000F7DT2O/?tag=pizzamaking-20) :-D


Jimmy,

In my limited opinion it is always hard to mimic another brand or type of flour.  I guess it can be done though, especially if you use Novemberís Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator tool at  http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ (http://foodsim.toastguard.com/) I just learned to use Novemberís tool to be able to mix flours. 

The flour sifter you posted from Amazon.com looks like a good flour sifter, but a little on the expensive side.  :o Your tea strainer sure looks like a painful way to try and sift flour, but it looks like it works for you.  :)

I use my momís old flour strainer sometimes if I want to get my flours hydrated better.  I bought these strainers at a estate sale this summer, but I sure donít know what they are for.  Maybe one of them could be used to sift flour, but I think it would be a slow process.  I do have a little Cuisinart spice and nut grinder that does an okay job on grinding different things, including flours. 

Are you planning on trying a Pizzarium pie in the near future?  I want to get back to trying one soon. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on November 20, 2011, 04:45:05 PM
Norma,
   Yeah, I am planning on doing a "Bonci style" pizza this weekend with Thanksgiving leftovers. I may try a sweet potato and Taleggio version of his potato pie or I am playing around with the idea of something with crispy turkey skin, maybe with Brussels sprouts and goat cheese.  Not sure though, I guess we will see what materializes.
  With regards to the flour. Yeah, I know, I know. I probably will not be figuring out M. Marino's secret Buratto formula any time soon. But if I can figure out method for producing a good enough knock-off by just bolting some flour at home, like they are doing at their mill, I figure it will allow myself and other home pizza makers an alternative route that will be more affordable than $7.50lb for the real flour. And yes, the tea strainer was not fun to work with but no pain no gain. Or at least till I can get over to the hardware store and better explore my options.
That sifter on the left looks like a beauty and would probably remove quite a bit of the bran and offer a fine particle size too. Although I agree, it would probably take some time to get a hefty amount. If you're feeling ambitious, give it a try on some whole wheat. You just might have the gold ticket in your collection. ;)

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: P-TSAR on November 23, 2011, 08:29:44 AM
At the risk of sounding noobish, how do I achieve the elastic quality in my crumb. I've been making this style of pizza since my return from rome and it's the one thing i feel my pizza's lack.

Is it a matter of elbow grease?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on November 23, 2011, 08:38:41 AM
At the risk of sounding noobish, how do I achieve the elastic quality in my crumb. I've been making this style of pizza since my return from rome and it's the one thing i feel my pizza's lack.

Is it a matter of elbow grease?

Can you elaborate a little more on what you mean by elastic? Do you mean before the dough is cooked or the quality of the cooked crumb?

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: P-TSAR on November 23, 2011, 09:33:53 AM
Can you elaborate a little more on what you mean by elastic? Do you mean before the dough is cooked or the quality of the cooked crumb?

John

I mean the quality of the cooked crumb. I love it when the cooked pizza has chewy, stretch to it. Although I achieve an airy, flavoursome crumb it doesn't seem to have that light elasticity.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on November 23, 2011, 09:58:49 AM
P-Tsar,
What type of flour type of flour are you using and how are you mixing the dough?  I have had really good success with an all-purpose/semolina blend (1:1 ratio) or just standard all-purpose alone.  Both had more than enough chew to them with a nice hole structure. Here is an example of one with an all-purpose/semolina blend.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: P-TSAR on November 23, 2011, 10:07:58 AM
Jimmy

I use a Very Strong White bread flour. It has 13.9g Protein per 100g.
I mix 500g with 5g IDY and 300g water. Autolyse for 45 mins. Add extra 50g water and 2 teaspoons salt, 2 tablespoons evo.
Then fold with 15 minute rests for 2 hrs, overnight in fridge. Another 2hr folds. Another 24 hrs in fridge. Divide. 4 hours room temp. Shape then in baking pan. Bake on full power on preheated 1.5 inch granite for 15-20 mins.

Everyone loves them but I was in London on the weekend and tried something similar to pizza al taglio in a place called Princi. It was exactly what I am after and very similar to the Pizza in this thread http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14244.0.html
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on November 23, 2011, 10:09:51 AM
Is it a matter of elbow grease?

Yes. Specifically, it's about learning how far you can go with the kneading without damaging the gluten.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on November 23, 2011, 10:15:01 AM
JimmyG:That's one fine looking pie there- care to provide the details?

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on November 23, 2011, 10:17:07 AM
I agree with Jose. By the time you are done bulking, can you pull the dough like taffy without it breaking? If not, you need more development - OR - you have gone too far and the gluten is breaking down. You are using a very good approach with turns, I would actually cut your cold fermentation down to one night only. At 1% IDY it may be pushing it for two nights. I would think by the second night your dough would have tripled.

Jimmy - Fantastic teglia. Love your topping combinations as well.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: P-TSAR on November 23, 2011, 10:24:22 AM
I have been using the Bonci method of stretch and fold. Would you say I would be better off with the stretch and fold method like Tartine?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on November 23, 2011, 10:35:38 AM
I have been using the Bonci method of stretch and fold. Would you say I would be better off with the stretch and fold method like Tartine?

They are one in the same, in that they accomplish the same task. It may just be that your particular flour needs more attention to gluten development. For instance, I want a light and airy crumb. I have been using a 00 flour that has protein count of 11.5%. I only need to do minimal turns and a long room temp ferment to get the gluten to a stage where it is elastic but not tough and chewy.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on November 23, 2011, 10:48:46 AM
This really wasnít a Pizzarium attempt at Reply 30 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16380.msg160742.html#msg160742  but it seemed to give me good results.  I used KASL and Caputo Pizzeria flour.  I am going to up the thickness factor and try again.  If upping the thickness factor works, I might try a starter.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on November 23, 2011, 11:05:49 AM
Jose: The formula was 100% flour (50/50% AP and Semolina), 75% H20, 2.3% salt, 5% sourdough starter, and 1.5% EVO (all at room temp which was 76F). My TF was approximately 0.135. For the most part, I followed a modified Bonci method. 10-15 min autolyse after mixing without the salt and oil. The first stretch and fold (S&F) I added in the salt. Than I did 4 more S&Fs with a 10 min resting interval. The last S&F I added in the oil. I greased up a container and bulk fermented in the fridge for 2 days. 3 hour rise out of the fridge. The dough was shaped in the pan with some EVO. The topping clusters were Brussel sprouts, mozz, b. pepper and bacon; Whole fire-roasted eggplant, chopped tomatoes that were salted and sweated for 3 hours to loose some moisture, chili flakes, chopped oregano and young-meltable sheep's milk cheese; and the last was goat cheese, grilled fennel and salami. All of which was baked at 550F for approximately 7-9mins.
John: Thanks
P-Tsar: Maybe try leaving out the EVO until you have done several rounds of S&F. Oil can inhibit some of the gluten subunits from bonding if you are not using mechanical means mixing. Thus giving you a less chewy dough.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on November 23, 2011, 04:32:06 PM
Whoa... Norma that is some beautiful crust. That would work well indeed. 
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on November 23, 2011, 04:53:31 PM
Whoa... Norma that is some beautiful crust. That would work well indeed. 

Jimmy,

Thanks for your kind words!  :)  I have no idea if I up the TF if it will work though.  Will give it a shot soon.  I just got some new steel pans I might also try.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on November 23, 2011, 04:56:14 PM
Norma,
What was your thickness factor on that pie?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on November 23, 2011, 05:21:35 PM
Norma,
What was your thickness factor on that pie?

Jimmy,

I really donít know what the TF was for the pie I made.  I posted the formula at Reply 20 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16380.msg160343.html#msg160343  but I did the formula on the Dough Weight of 370 grams.  That was the number Steve gave me.  I am so bad at math, that I canít figure out what the TF was.   

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Pete-zza on November 23, 2011, 05:43:13 PM
I really donít know what the TF was for the pie I made.  I posted the formula at Reply 20 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16380.msg160343.html#msg160343  but I did the formula on the Dough Weight of 370 grams.  That was the number Steve gave me.  I am so bad at math, that I canít figure out what the TF was.   

Norma,

Since you used a 12" pan, the thickness factor = (370/28.35)/(3.14159 x 6 x 6) = 0.1154.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on November 23, 2011, 05:44:31 PM
Norma,

Since you used a 12" pan, the thickness factor = (370/28.35)/(3.14159 x 6 x 6) = 0.1154.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Greenline on November 23, 2011, 06:56:50 PM
Hi,
this is the process I've been using for two or three months now. The experiment with farro and Kamut I posted a while ago is in fact based on the same process.

This is called "Pizza 3.0" by Marco Lungo. Marco has published and teached three different processes: 2.0, 3.0 and 4.0. Version 2.0 uses durum wheat and hard wheat. Version 3.0 adds integral wheat for more flavors. Version 4.0 uses four flours from Mulino Marino and is designed for even more flavors and for dough quality, indeed it won the world championship (I posted the topping in a separate topic). Typical of all these process is that no fats are used either in the dough or in the pan.

Here's the one I prepared yesterday. Ingredients:

30g integral wheat
80g durum wheat semolina
320g hard wheat (Manitoba type "0")
345g water
10g salt
2.4g fresh yeast

The process. Dissolve the yeast in 60g of water with a tiny bit of sugar, add the integral wheat and mix with a handblender for some seconds. It produces a brownish cream with small bubbles on the surface. Put this in the fridge for 10 minutes. Out of the fridge mix this with 90g water and slowly add the durum wheat and mix. When all is mixed let it rest in the fridge for 10 minutes. Out of the fridge again add 160g of water and mix/knead the hard wheat. Doing this by hand it takes me about 17-18 minutes. Back into the fridge for 5 minutes. Out again let it rest for 10 minutes more. I do this in and out of the fridge to keep the dough cool, I also use cold water from the fridge. Now add the salt and the remaining water (35g) and knead until the dough is compact. The dough temperature is slightly lower than 20įC now so it needs 1 1/2 hour rest before going into the fridge. During this rest I do five "rigeneri" as suggested by Bonci, with 15 minutes interval between them.

The dough now goes into the fridge as close as possible to 4įC. 48 hours give good results with the flours and hydration I'm using, but anything from 24 to 72 and even more is possible.

Out of the fridge after about 44 hours, I form the dough using this technique:

http://youtu.be/FeCHO4Y3fDo

It's left to proof until the internal temperature reaches 18įC. After 3 1/2 hours it's about 18.4įC so it's good to go. I have a video of me putting the dough into the pan, I actually don't do it very well (still learning hehe  :-[) but I do recover from the initial mistake! ;D Here it is:

http://youtu.be/SKQjC1lx8Wo

The pan is about 36x36.6 cm. Some tomato on top then in the oven, pre-heated at 250įC, for 16'15".

So a lot of effort but the flavor is really good, even straight out of the oven when it still hasn't seen a drop of oil! With a good topping for me it's a fantastic pizza! :pizza:






Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on November 23, 2011, 09:32:39 PM
Greenline
Wow. Amazing looking. I am definitely going to be trying this out.  Is the whole wheat (farina integral) your adding a type 1 or 2?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Greenline on November 24, 2011, 03:15:00 PM
Greenline
Wow. Amazing looking. I am definitely going to be trying this out.  Is the whole wheat (farina integral) your adding a type 1 or 2?

Thanks! ;) Not sure about your question, maybe things are different around here (Italy). Our classification for hard and soft wheat has the following types (in sequence): integral (whole), type 2, type 1, type 0 and type 00. Integral wheat comes from the first grinding and contains most parts of the grain.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on November 25, 2011, 12:35:07 PM
Greenline,
Thank you, you just answer the question that I was looking for. 
Jim
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: RamirOk on November 25, 2011, 01:33:55 PM
Hi I try again with better results.
I just got some Lloyd's pans that I order and I wanted to try them as soon as possible  ;D.
I made 4 balls with this recipe:
Flour (100%) 11.5 protein per 100 grams.
Water (70%)
IDY (.7%)
Salt (2%)
Oil (4%)

My process was to mix by hand the flour and the IDY and gradually adding the water when all was well mixed I add salt and oil.
I did 4 "rigeneri" with 10 minutes interval between them then I put the balls in the fridge.

After 11 hours I remove 2 balls from the fridge and drop them directly into the oiled pan and leave them at room temperature for 3 hours.
Then to the oven at 260 c for 15 minutes.

So my questions are ...

Why is the bottom of the pie turn out with all this holes? Is this normal?  :-\

Also what would help me get a more open crumb? more hydration? this pizza was the best I've done, crispy on the outside and soft and a little moist on the inside. Thanks to all of you I learned a lot on this site but I want bigger and irregular holes.

There are still 2 balls left in the fridge. I'm going to bake them today, although I doubt there is anything I can do in this instance to have different results.  ???
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Pete-zza on November 25, 2011, 01:56:35 PM
Why is the bottom of the pie turn out with all this holes? Is this normal?  :-\

RamirOk,

I don't know if this will help: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7358&p=49641&hilit=095ce5b573b812adf467daa9cdfa9895#p49630. If not, you might pose your question to Tom Lehmann at the Ask the Dough Doctor board.

Peter
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on November 25, 2011, 02:58:17 PM
RamirOk,
I have experienced the same thing. I agree with Peter, this phenomena most likely the result of fermentation as the article that Peter pointed too. These bubble are no cause for concern. If you want  to minimize the bottom bubbles, you may want to try *lightly* stretch out and shaping your dough to the pan right before baking instead of fermenting in the pan. Also, keeping the pan oil to a thin light coating should help as well. But if you are getting good results with the method you are using, other then the bubbling, I would stick with what works best. Good luck.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Greenline on November 25, 2011, 03:18:23 PM
Hi RamirOk,
I think the result you're getting is ok for the process you follow. The procedure for pan-baked pizza "alla romana" however does not include proofing in the pan. Rather, when you take the dough out of the fridge you form it into a square or rectangle and proof it until ready. Then it's put in the pan and immediately goes into the pre-heated oven. I have posted videos for all these steps in my previous posts here (no more than 2 or 3 pages back from here). It would be interesting if you could try this with one of the balls you have left!

P.S. I think there might be a little bit of extra oil in your pan, but this is of course also a matter of taste.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: RamirOk on November 25, 2011, 03:44:28 PM
RamirOk,

I don't know if this will help: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7358&p=49641&hilit=095ce5b573b812adf467daa9cdfa9895#p49630. If not, you might pose your question to Tom Lehmann at the Ask the Dough Doctor board.

Peter

Thanks Peter that really helped me with my first question. I have to be careful of the air trapped beneath the dough.
Any suggestions to make the holes bigger? is the flour strong enough?

Greenline,
I put it directly in the pan because I wanted to handle the dough as little as possible to save as many bubbles but I was expecting bigger holes. Tonight I'm going to do that process with the 2 balls left and you are right I accidentally put too much oil.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Greenline on November 25, 2011, 04:05:07 PM
Greenline,
I put it directly in the pan because I wanted to handle the dough as little as possible to save as many bubbles but I was expecting bigger holes.

Yeah one has to be very careful putting the dough into the pan, it's usually stretched by gravity (its own weight) and then given the final shape with gentle pulls. Pushing it into shape doesn't work with this style and actually destroys the holes.

Here's another video on this subject, this one came second by only 6 points at world pizza championship in 2009:

http://youtu.be/uxbxoPKth4Y
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on November 25, 2011, 05:51:22 PM
I agree with Greenline that the holes in the bottom were caused by the long pan rise. The pan rise also explains why the crumb was bread-like and not as open as it could have been. For pizza in teglia alla romana, the dough shouldn't be allowed to sit in the pan (15-20 minutes is OK if you can't do it any faster).

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on November 26, 2011, 06:11:39 AM
Yeah one has to be very careful putting the dough into the pan, it's usually stretched by gravity (its own weight) and then given the final shape with gentle pulls. Pushing it into shape doesn't work with this style and actually destroys the holes.

Can you explain this a bit further. Most of the Bonci videos I have seen has him gently pressing with his fingers from the center outwards. This video you posted looks as if that did not happen, as the dough is very smooth on top. What is the standard method to go from oblong dough to pan? Any info appreciated. I, too, struggle with an open crumb due to the turn out into the pan.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on November 26, 2011, 10:43:07 AM
The following video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQy3FGVW7jQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQy3FGVW7jQ)

demonstrates an amost entirely gravity-based stretching method with almost no poking or prodding of the dough. It struck me as preposterous, but there's no arguing with this guy's results.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: parallei on November 26, 2011, 10:52:11 AM
Nice work by Frankie G in the video!
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Greenline on November 26, 2011, 05:42:09 PM
John,
I confess I have no experience with that part of Bonci's method. The videos that I posted are from very good and well known pizza makers and I think it shows how they really work in their shops but by no means I believe theirs is the only method or the best one. I think in fact there may be no "absolute best", one has just to experiment and find what suits his/her process. I guess I'll have to try that... sigh... another item to add to my ever growing list of things to try! ;D

Jose,
great video there, thanks for posting!
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on November 27, 2011, 07:53:25 AM
John,
I confess I have no experience with that part of Bonci's method. The videos that I posted are from very good and well known pizza makers and I think it shows how they really work in their shops but by no means I believe theirs is the only method or the best one. I think in fact there may be no "absolute best", one has just to experiment and find what suits his/her process. I guess I'll have to try that... sigh... another item to add to my ever growing list of things to try! ;D

Thanks for the follow up - I am going to try and use a high (80%) dough and NOT press it out. I am going to try and pull the edges out to form an oblong shape, and use the flip to stretch. I will see if I can get it to fully shape into the pan, and if it helps with the larger, open crumb.

It could be that I am just not developing the dough correctly, though ;)

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: RamirOk on November 27, 2011, 06:58:33 PM
Well I have much better results thanks to all.
This time I let it rise for 2 hours covered then I stretched like Greenline suggested me (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg161031.html#msg161031)
Then I transfer the dough to the pan following the technique that Bonci use in his videos. Some EVOO, sea salt and basil.

The crumb was more open and irregular and without air pockets on the bottom . Now I'm going to try adding different flours for more flavor and see what happens.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Greenline on November 27, 2011, 07:06:06 PM
RamirOk, it looks great! :D
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: tinroofrusted on November 27, 2011, 07:31:03 PM
Wow that looks nice. Perfect!
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on December 04, 2011, 06:18:52 PM
Yes it is that time once again.  83% Hydration, 72 hour cold fermentation using Molino Iaquone "Pizza taglio alla Romana" flour. 
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: buceriasdon on December 04, 2011, 06:28:28 PM
Matthew, Two words, world class :D
Don
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on December 04, 2011, 06:29:51 PM
Matthew, Two words, world class :D
Don

Thank you Don, you're a gentleman.

Best,
Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on December 05, 2011, 08:42:25 PM
Here are the results is this afternoons Pizzarium attempt. The dough recipe was for 2 dough balls:
400g AP flour
400g finely bolted white whole wheat flour (Wheat Montana brand) using cheese cloth
633g of water
83 g of sourdough starter (100% hydration)
23g of gray salt

The mixing technique was similar to one Bonci has previously prescribed, using a stretch and fold technique. The dough was bulk fermented at 51F +/-4F for 72 hours, balled and left to rise at 80F for 3 hours. The pizza was topped with yellow or purple potatoes, mushrooms, scallions and mozz. The other side was a raw sauce of tomatoes, basil and garlic. The pizza was baked at 550F. The fresh mozz was topped 3 minutes before coming out of the oven.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on December 05, 2011, 08:43:02 PM
Here is the crumb shot
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on December 05, 2011, 08:44:36 PM
And the undercarriage.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on December 05, 2011, 09:38:15 PM
Matt and Jimmy,

You both are getting fantastic results with your Pizzarium pies! :chef: :chef:  Love to looked at the pictures of your pies.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on December 06, 2011, 07:10:38 AM
Matt - Just outstanding. The standard by which we all aspire.

JimmyG - I am loving your contributions to this thread. I have also been experimenting with bolted flour. The one I have is from a local farm that is freshly milled before I pick it up. It is hard red winter wheat that has been bolted, and around 15% protein. I am getting good crumb results, but need work on the hydration level. For a flour with such high protein, it is very soft in the final product. The test below uses a combination of CY and starter, same day dough. Please excuse the awful inconsistency in height, it was a bad flip into the pan.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on December 06, 2011, 07:21:28 AM
Norma & John,
Thank you very much.

John,
I have been working on a spelt formula for the restaurant & I understand your challenge; nonetheless, your pizza looks fantastic!

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on December 06, 2011, 09:25:46 AM
Norma & John, Thanks.

John,
I too am really liking the results I am getting by bolting the flour, the soft consistency is definitely a plus. However, to get 400g of bolted wheat through cheese cloth took me about 10-15mins so I am going to be looking for another alternative bolting method I think. I too was getting some inconsistencies with height as well, mostly on the potato side of the pizza. I was in the 80s for my hydration level and think that led to some structural integrity problems with the weight of the grated potato topping. I may back down to mid to the 70s next time to see if that resolves the problem.   BTW... That bianca you made is looking really good. Is that chive and a rindwashed cheese on the top? Looks incredible.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on December 06, 2011, 10:32:11 AM
   BTW... That bianca you made is looking really good. Is that chive and a rindwashed cheese on the top? Looks incredible.

Thanks Matt and Jimmy!

Jimmy - You have great eyes. It is a blend of three cheeses toped with chives: an aged provolone, and two different pecorinos, one fresh with a washed rind from Chianti, and the other aged from Campania.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: pizzablogger on December 06, 2011, 10:36:26 AM
Matt, Jimmy and John.....my goodness, what outstanding looking efforts.  :)
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: RamirOk on December 07, 2011, 06:14:41 PM
The Layover - Rome http://www.novamov.com/video/aztb3j8vttgc6 (http://www.novamov.com/video/aztb3j8vttgc6)
Skip to 23:00 for the pizzarium part. I recommend to watch the complete episode.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on December 07, 2011, 07:57:42 PM
The Layover - Rome http://www.novamov.com/video/aztb3j8vttgc6 (http://www.novamov.com/video/aztb3j8vttgc6)
Skip to 23:00 for the pizzarium part. I recommend to watch the complete episode.

Bonci is a madman and a genius. I want to taste every slice he has in that display case. What insanity - my GOD did you see the size of that dough his assistant flipped in that massive pan? I want a pan that size now.

I don't think Bonci obsesses over the crumb like we do. They seem pretty rough with the dough, and it's all about the toppings. That won't change my obsession, but it is worth noting.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on December 07, 2011, 10:56:17 PM
Page 45 has a veritable winning streak of epic pies. Hails to all who made them, masterpieces one and all.


I don't think Bonci obsesses over the crumb like we do. They seem pretty rough with the dough, and it's all about the toppings. That won't change my obsession, but it is worth noting.

John

Lately I've come to think that what's most important for this style is proper dough development and not the size of the alveoles. For example, I've found that sometimes gas loss due to man-handling can lead to a somewhat denser crumb than I'd like, but the finished product eats the same, even if it isn't as photogenic.

JLP


Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on December 08, 2011, 06:35:43 AM
Two videos posted by Gabriele Bonci on Youtube. Gabriele Bonci alla TV nazionale Turca (NTZ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vcNp1F6yis and Romeís ĎMichelangelo of pizzaí http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnmX3uAAuXA  I canít understand Italian.  If anyone can tell me what is being said, let me know.

Rome  Pizzarium  http://www.redvisitor.com/City-Guides/Rome/Restaurants/Pizzarium-Restaurant-Rome.html

Gabriele Bonci allo Slow Food Day di Roma http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvNvPQ9AU9w

Pizzaís New Frontier:  Gabriele Bonci  http://www.finedininglovers.com/tips_and_news/food_news/gabriele_bonci_pizza.aspx

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: pizzablogger on December 08, 2011, 06:52:52 PM
I just got on here to see if anyone posted about the Layover, Rome episode. I just caught it on DVR last night.

The Pizzarium portion was great....dittos for the meal Tony and Bonci shared earlier. Bonci seems loose and fast with the F bomb and enthusiasm. Makes for killer pizza and television. My goodness I want to go back to Rome so bad.

BTW, The Layover so far is classic Bourdain. Much more like Bourdain of old....the show has more of the irreverent, funny, very blunt Bourdain that is not seen as much on No Reservations. For that reason it makes both shows must see TV (about the only two shows I watch regularly on TV other than random documentaries, etc....I generally hate TV).

The David Chang, processed cheese comment Bourdain made in the NYC Layover episode still has me rolling.

Good stuff.

More Pizzarium home made pizzas and photos guys! --K
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: RamirOk on December 10, 2011, 07:45:07 PM
Last night pizza.
I use the same recipe but this is a parbake dough from last week and it turn out great. I love how crisp was the bottom, this pans are really great.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: tinroofrusted on December 10, 2011, 08:45:37 PM
I just got on here to see if anyone posted about the Layover, Rome episode. I just caught it on DVR last night.

The Pizzarium portion was great....dittos for the meal Tony and Bonci shared earlier. Bonci seems loose and fast with the F bomb and enthusiasm. Makes for killer pizza and television. My goodness I want to go back to Rome so bad.


Bonci is really larger than life. What a character. I think he must really enjoy life a lot. And what a feel for dough.  I went to Rome two years ago and didn't know about Pizzarium at the time. I am dying to go back and try it. 
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on December 11, 2011, 07:47:33 AM
Last night pizza.
I use the same recipe but this is a parbake dough from last week and it turn out great. I love how crisp was the bottom, this pans are really great.

Fantastic crumb and height!

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: thezaman on December 11, 2011, 10:09:45 AM
after watching the layover i found this thread. it is really informative. a real dumb question, are the pizza served cold or hot? bonci is a real character, i think alcohol helps him keep his nice disposition. his bread looks amazing as well. one of the blogs suggests that you not leave the pizzeria without a loaf. would most consider his dough a ciabatta style dough? one YouTube segment shows him cooking his tomato sauce with fresh basil.the segments where he is saucing pizzas do not show any green. also any though on the pan sizes he is using for baking and display?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on December 11, 2011, 11:25:14 AM
after watching the layover i found this thread. it is really informative. a real dumb question, are the pizza served cold or hot?

By default, the slices are cold (the pies are baked, placed in the display case, and then slices are cut as they are ordered), although they'll re-heat them if you want.

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: RamirOk on December 11, 2011, 05:17:22 PM
By default, the slices are cold (the pies are baked, placed in the display case, and then slices are cut as they are ordered), although they'll re-heat them if you want.

JLP

I always thought that they'll re-heat them by default before serving but now I remember the time I went to Rome and saw a guy buying some slices I don't remember that they re-heat any slice, they just cut and fold the pieces like a sandwich before serving.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: thezaman on December 11, 2011, 08:10:03 PM
i can see a lot of them would be ruined by cooking. others might benefit.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on December 12, 2011, 09:17:40 AM
RamirOK,
Great looking pie above!
Jim
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on December 12, 2011, 07:06:23 PM
I am presenting the results of my latest experiment to approximate Buratto flour at home so I do not have to spend $7.50lb for Pizzarium style flour. I decided to set the 100% Buratto dough as a control against two experimental doughs.  To the two experimental doughs I cut unbolted white whole wheat (WWW) with AP (all KA brand) in two different proportions from the total flour weight; 1.) 50/50 WWW to AP; 2.) 25/75 WWW to AP. I figured this would allow me to test flavor, texture and performance in a controlled manor. At first I was going to make three different Pizzarium style pies for comparisons, but I knew there was no chance in hell I could never eat that much, so I decided to go with a standard 14 inch pie. I deliberately dropped the hydration level for all pies down to 65% so could better discern between flavor, oven-spring, color, texture and overall performance of the doughs.

The dough formula for all three flours were:
Flour (100%):    212.35 g |  7.49 oz | 0.47 lbs
Water (65%):     138.03 g |  4.87 oz | 0.3 lbs
IDY (.2%):                    0.42 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.14 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
Salt (2.5%):                    5.31 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.11 tsp | 0.37 tbsp
Total (167.7%):     356.11 g | 12.56 oz | 0.79 lbs | TF = 0.0816  for a 14Ē pie.

   All doughs were lightly premixed by hand until the dough formed a soft homogenous mass. The doughs were further mixed in a food processor for 20 sec. The dough balls were than proofed in their own separate contains for 24 hours at 67F. The containers were not prelubed with oil as this may impart flavors that could influence the final outcome.
   All of the doughs had ample gluten development. Texturally, the Buratto was the softest of the three doughs but not overly different from the 25% WWW mix.  It is hard to tell in the picture but the 25% WWW mix was the closest in color to the Buratto, the 50%WWW mix was the darkest of the mixes.
All of the doughs were opened by hand and dusted with their own flour mix, Buratto, 50% WWW and 25% WWW respectively. The 50% WWW was a little stiff opening up but I found no differences between the 25% WWW and Buratto doughs and both opened up like a dream.
   The 50% WWW was topped with mushrooms, a raw tomato sauce, mozz and black pepper. The 25% WWW was topped with a raw tomato sauce, mozz, mortadella, and slivered fennel. The Buratto dough contained mozz, pancetta, and Brussels sprout leaves. All pies were baked in a 550F oven which was preheated for 70 mins.
   As shown below, all three pie were virtually indistinguishable by color and blistering. To compare the flavors of the three doughs, only the crust was used. Flavorwise, the 50% WWW was the wheatiest of the three doughs which was very pronounced. The flavor between the 25% WWW and the Buratto crusts were indistinguishable or at least to my palette. All of the dough were crisp, however the Buratto, followed by the 50% WWW were the crispiest of the three. Texturally, the Buratto was chewy and leather tough. Both of the WWWs had a good high protein chew to them, similar to a good NY slice but not overly unpleasant like the Buratto. Regarding oven-spring, the 25% WWW mix had the most rise. The 50% WWW mix and the Buratto demonstrated similar rises. For my tastes, the 25% WWW flour mix was extremely similar to the Buratto and in some regards out preformed the Buratto flour in rise and texture. I hope next week or two to preform side by side comparison of the 25% WWW mix against the Buratto using Bonciís 80% hydration formula in the square pan to reaffirm what I found here.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on December 12, 2011, 07:08:18 PM
50% WWW mix on the top picture.  25% WWW mix on the bottom left and the Buratto pie on the bottom right.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on December 12, 2011, 07:10:33 PM
From left to right 50% WWW, 25% WWW, and Buratto.
Top to bottom, 50% WWW, 25% WWW, and Buratto.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on December 12, 2011, 07:11:11 PM
Top to bottom, 50% WWW, 25% WWW, and Buratto
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on December 12, 2011, 07:21:15 PM
Fascinating experiment. I am perplexed as to why the Buratto would be tough. Do you know what the protein count is?

I have found through my own use of the local bolted flour I have been using, that freshness makes a huge difference in the final product. This flour is actually 15% protein, but is so soft and luxurious. It may be the Buratto is old?

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on December 12, 2011, 07:27:06 PM
Jimmy,

Very interesting experiments!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on December 12, 2011, 07:34:51 PM
John,
I am not sure why it was tough either. On the box, it say the dough came from lot: 07/27/11, possibly a date? The expiration is July 2013 so I don't think it was too old. I picked this flour up at William Sonoma on October 19th and it was vacuum packed. I have not found an industry lot percent but the side says 4g of protein per 30g of flour which equals approximately 13.33%. But this was one of the toughest pie I have ever had as was the previous dough I made with it a while back. As I said above, I am going to do one more run with this flour in a week or two in a pizzarium recipe. If the results are same as here, I am calling it quits with the Buratto.  

Norma,
Thanks!
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on December 12, 2011, 11:21:47 PM
FWIW last summer I struggled with a bag of AP that always yielded super-tough results no matter how long I rose the dough, how short and gentle the kneading, or how high the hydration. Perhaps sometimes there are quality-control lapses that result in a percentage of protein much higher than the average listed on the bag?

JLP
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on December 13, 2011, 07:55:17 AM
John & Jose,
I think you both are probably right, there is some sort of quality control issue here. I am going to head back over to the store today and see if I can pick up one from a different lot #. I hope that resolves the issue.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: thezaman on December 13, 2011, 07:55:54 AM
 i have not read thru the whole thread so this may have been covered, a blog by elizabeth minchilli making pizza  with bonci. there is a recipe and methods in the blog.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Greenline on December 15, 2011, 04:39:45 PM
By default, the slices are cold (the pies are baked, placed in the display case, and then slices are cut as they are ordered), although they'll re-heat them if you want.
JLP

That's indeed how it works. However, I highly recommend that you get warm pizza at Pizzarium. I tried to eat a cold piece once and it was not so good, quite gummy too.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Greenline on December 15, 2011, 04:49:04 PM
Two videos posted by Gabriele Bonci on Youtube. Gabriele Bonci alla TV nazionale Turca (NTZ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vcNp1F6yis and Romeís ĎMichelangelo of pizzaí http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnmX3uAAuXA  I canít understand Italian.  If anyone can tell me what is being said, let me know.

First video is in Turkish, which I cannot understand. Second video is in English and when Bonci speaks Italian it is then translated by the English speaker.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on December 21, 2011, 10:57:14 AM
This is the last of my experiments mimicking Buratto flour with white whole wheat (WWW). This time, I used a "Bonci style" formula. The control dough was new Buratto flour (from a different lot#) which was being compared against a 75% AP/25% bolted WWW dough. The formula for both doughs were:
100% flour
80% hydration
2.3% salt
10% lievito madre (55% hydration sour starter)
TF = 0.14 for a 2(14x7) inch pan (I decided to merge the doughs into one pan)

The doughs were mixed using a stretch and fold technique (x4) over the course of 1h. The dough balls were balled and proofed in their own separate containers over the course of 24h at 67F and reballed 3h before baking. The oven was preheated for 1h at 550F. The pan was lightly oiled and the doughs were stretched to fit the pan side by side. The Buratto side was topped with tomato sauce and mozz, and peas and bacon on the other side. The WWW was topped with tomato sauce and mozz on one side and sauce, shallot, young caciocavallo, anchovies and bread crumbs on the other side.
Like the previous pies, the crusts were so similar it was uncanny. Color, browning, hole structure, texture, and rise were identical. The only difference was in the flavor. The Buratto was slightly wheatier than the WWW which could be due to the bolting of the flour during this round. John and Jose, you were both right, I think I had a bad batch of flour last time b/c this dough was plenty light and not tough at all. I guess in conclusion, if you do not have access to Buratto flour or do not want to spend a small fortune on flour, a 75% AP/25%WWW mix is a close enough approximate to replace Buratto.
(In the photo the Buratto dough is on the left and the 25% WWW is on the right)
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on December 21, 2011, 10:58:21 AM
Left is the WWW mix and the right is the Buratto.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: tinroofrusted on December 21, 2011, 11:14:12 AM
Thanks for the great writeup Jimmy. Really interesting. Your photos show a really nice crumb and some of that "custard" texture that I love so much.   

I am going to incorporate some white whole wheat into my next batch of focaccia.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on December 21, 2011, 01:18:37 PM
Jimmy,

Great crumb structure!  :) I like your use of two flours.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: RamirOk on December 21, 2011, 04:17:28 PM
Excellent results Jimmy,
Now not only I wish I could get Buratto where I live. I want to try the white whole wheat too.  :(
In the meantime I will continue looking for alternatives.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on December 21, 2011, 08:37:29 PM
Thanks folks! :)
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on December 22, 2011, 12:07:44 PM
Love it Jimmy! You nailed the crumb. I can't wait to try this using the stiff starter. I used a stiff starter for some panettone and it came out incredible.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: parallei on December 22, 2011, 04:29:30 PM
Wonderful JimmyG.  Gotta love the crumb. :chef:
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: divinacucina on January 02, 2012, 05:31:07 AM
Ciao! just saw that my blog post from class at Bonci's is on this forum so decided to stop by.
I am returning this January to brush up on my dough.
Will keep you posted.
There are so many things to a good dough--- but I think what is important is we each have our own idea of what we are searching for.

I don't like really high doughs, and can't digest most pizza I have had in america. ( I moved to Italy in 1984, so I KNOW that there are some fabulous places now) but when I go back to the states- the last thing I want to eat is Italian! ha ha

so yes-- bonci uses a 00 flour from marini and sometimes does blends with farro ( emmer). 80 % hydration and basically is a no knead dough, there is a folding thing he does---- he was trained as a bread baker and pizzarium also sells his bread. it is at least a 12 hour proofing of the dough.

The thing I love about it---- is the creativity in toppings! can't wait to return!
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: parallei on January 02, 2012, 11:04:25 AM
Welcome to the board divinacucina. When you say:

Quote
I don't like really high doughs,

what do you mean, high strength flours?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on January 15, 2012, 01:21:53 PM
Today's Pizza
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 15, 2012, 02:47:38 PM
Matt,

Sure looks tasty!  Great job.   :chef:  What formulation did you use if you don't mind me asking.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 15, 2012, 03:25:27 PM
Oh man that looks delicious Matt. You have geared me up to get back into Bonci mode.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on January 15, 2012, 04:42:17 PM
Killer job Matt, that hole structure looks great!
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: DianeSF on January 15, 2012, 09:18:34 PM
I have fallen in love with Piedro's pizzas photos posted a year ago in January. I've read through the all the postings that follow and can't figure out what is what and which is which!  Is there a recipe?
Many thanks,
Diane
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on January 16, 2012, 06:11:53 AM
Thanks all.

Norma,
It's a 70% room temp fermented dough using a biga naturale.  I have learned to realize that the handling is everything with this type of dough.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 16, 2012, 07:45:25 AM
I have fallen in love with Piedro's pizzas photos posted a year ago in January. I've read through the all the postings that follow and can't figure out what is what and which is which!  Is there a recipe?
Many thanks,
Diane

Hi Diane - Each couple of pages or so you will find a recipe and workflow, usually in percentages. Use the dough calculator on this site to get the size of your batch and fit to your pan. I would just pick a post that has something that you like visually and use that recipe. We have experimented with so many different approaches that this thread can become confusing, but follow along over the next couple of months and we will be posting our newest efforts. And have fun with the toppings!

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 16, 2012, 09:02:58 AM
Thanks all.

Norma,
It's a 70% room temp fermented dough using a biga naturale.  I have learned to realize that the handling is everything with this type of dough.

Matt

Matt,

Thanks for telling me your formulation.  :) I still haven't gotten down exactly what to do to get consistent Pizzarium pies, but might give it another try in a little while.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: RamirOk on January 20, 2012, 12:28:43 AM
Matt,
That look amazing, do you bake the pizza like bonci do then separate and add more ingredients or just cut in half and put that half on top?
Because when bonci do this style of pizza the top did not rise very much.

Also if you can share your toppings would be nice.


---


After watching again the Layover episode I was wondering what pan size Bonci use?
I also saw that he rarely uses that size in one pizza.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on January 20, 2012, 06:20:19 AM
Matt,
That look amazing, do you bake the pizza like bonci do then separate and add more ingredients or just cut in half and put that half on top?
Because when bonci do this style of pizza the top did not rise very much.

Also if you can share your toppings would be nice.


---


After watching again the Layover episode I was wondering what pan size Bonci use?
I also saw that he rarely uses that size in one pizza.

Thank you.  They are baked as 2 individual layers with fresh raw spinach in between.  Once it's baked, I open it up and add fresh sliced hot sopressata & mortadella.  I do not allow it to rise once it's in the pan, it goes right into the oven.  He just uses a standard size 1/2 sheet pan.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 20, 2012, 09:16:39 AM
pizzeriabosco uploaded another video on Youtube about Pizza in Teglia con biga, but since I donít understand Italian, I canít understand what he is saying. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac0UuwPshU4&context=C3096d96ADOEgsToPDskJMjxR0Sw8sGS30kGLr3xo5

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on January 20, 2012, 03:19:35 PM
pizzeriabosco uploaded another video on Youtube about Pizza in Teglia con biga, but since I donít understand Italian, I canít understand what he is saying. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac0UuwPshU4&context=C3096d96ADOEgsToPDskJMjxR0Sw8sGS30kGLr3xo5

Norma

He's saying that the dough is made using 30% biga & the dough is 95% hydration. It will be ready to use the day after tomorrow after is cold ferments at 4 degrees.  He also references that the dough is like velvet.

Matt
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 20, 2012, 03:27:14 PM
pizzeriabosco uploaded another video on Youtube about Pizza in Teglia con biga, but since I donít understand Italian, I canít understand what he is saying. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac0UuwPshU4&context=C3096d96ADOEgsToPDskJMjxR0Sw8sGS30kGLr3xo5

Norma

Here is the flour he is using - notice it has semola as an ingredient:

http://www.molinoiaquone.com/index.php?p=archnews&sub_menu=cosafacciamo&s_sub_menu=prodotti&prod=Pizza&pop=PopGalleryPizza&id=15

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on January 20, 2012, 04:21:23 PM
Here is the flour he is using - notice it has semola as an ingredient:

http://www.molinoiaquone.com/index.php?p=archnews&sub_menu=cosafacciamo&s_sub_menu=prodotti&prod=Pizza&pop=PopGalleryPizza&id=15

John

This is the same flour that I used in my last 2 posts.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 20, 2012, 04:58:18 PM
This is the same flour that I used in my last 2 posts.


Do you have an internet source, or are you getting it through a distributor?

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 20, 2012, 06:05:00 PM
He's saying that the dough is made using 30% biga & the dough is 95% hydration. It will be ready to use the day after tomorrow after is cold ferments at 4 degrees.  He also references that the dough is like velvet.

Matt

Matt,

Thanks for the translation!  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on January 20, 2012, 07:03:23 PM
Do you have an internet source, or are you getting it through a distributor?

John

A local distributor carries it. If you contact them, they will call you back & let you know of distributors in your area.  It's a combo of Bread Flour, semola & soy flour. If all else fails you can make your own blend. I would do 60% bread, 30% semola rimacinata & 10% soy.

I would also consider doing 50/10/30/10
Bread/WW/Semola/Soy
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Matthew on January 20, 2012, 07:04:39 PM
Matt,

Thanks for the translation!  ;D

Norma

No problem
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 21, 2012, 09:43:53 AM
A local distributor carries it. If you contact them, they will call you back & let you know of distributors in your area.  It's a combo of Bread Flour, semola & soy flour. If all else fails you can make your own blend. I would do 60% bread, 30% semola rimacinata & 10% soy.

I would also consider doing 50/10/30/10
Bread/WW/Semola/Soy

Thanks very much Matt. In the meantime I found Marino flour at my local Williams-Sonoma. I am going to attempt a 50/50 buratto/spelt with a stiff 20% madre next weekend.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on January 21, 2012, 02:45:14 PM
John,
I'm glad you found the Buratto at your William Sonoma. I look forward to your thoughts about this flour. BTW did you pick up their 00 flour? I have been kind of curious if their is any noticeable difference between the MM 00 and Caputo Pizza Flour.
Jim
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on January 21, 2012, 06:05:12 PM
John,
I'm glad you found the Buratto at your William Sonoma. I look forward to your thoughts about this flour. BTW did you pick up their 00 flour? I have been kind of curious if their is any noticeable difference between the MM 00 and Caputo Pizza Flour.
Jim

I didn't buy the 00 because I read somewhere it was low protein. Caputo Pizzeria is generally high, near 12%.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 22, 2012, 07:14:27 AM
I donít know if any members on the forum follow Massimo Bosco Pizzeriaís Facebook page, but in my opinion there are many interesting pictures of his biga, dough, and Pizza in Teglia on his Facebook page

I can't get a link to work from Bosco's Facebook page, but if members have a Facebook page, they can just type in Massimo Bosco Pizzeria, and it should come up.

These are a few pictures copied from Massimo Bosco Pizzeriaís Facebook page.  If older posts are clicked on there are more pictures.  The last picture is a picture of Boscoís biga.  Does anyone know what kind of flour would have been used in the biga to make it so dark?


Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on January 22, 2012, 09:40:26 AM
Norma,
Well... you stumped me. I saw from this video he is using Caputo flour for his pizza http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSGzslUrqmQ&list=UUyPMDCM0d7EaAVRo5RYlkqw&index=15&feature=plcp I have no clue about the biga. I don't have a Facebook account, but if you do, maybe try asking him on his Facebook page. I would be kind of curious what he responds with.

John,
Quote
I didn't buy the 00 because I read somewhere it was low protein. Caputo Pizzeria is generally high, near 12%.

John
That is good to know.
Jim
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 22, 2012, 10:38:04 AM
Norma,
Well... you stumped me. I saw from this video he is using Caputo flour for his pizza http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSGzslUrqmQ&list=UUyPMDCM0d7EaAVRo5RYlkqw&index=15&feature=plcp I have no clue about the biga. I don't have a Facebook account, but if you do, maybe try asking him on his Facebook page. I would be kind of curious what he responds with.

Jim

Jim,

I do have a Facebook page, but all Boscoís posts and replies are in Italian.  I can see some of the translations, but donít know if I asked him the question about why the biga is so brown, if he would reply.  Maybe, a member that does have a Facebook page that speaks and writes Italian can ask Bosco the question.  If no one that speaks Italian wants to, I will ask Boscoís why his biga is so brown.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: P-TSAR on January 22, 2012, 04:58:52 PM
Thanks all.

Norma,
It's a 70% room temp fermented dough using a biga naturale.  I have learned to realize that the handling is everything with this type of dough.

Matt

Care to elaborate? Your pizza's look perfect to me. Are they baked in a domestic oven?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on January 23, 2012, 09:05:02 AM
Judy (divinacucina) posted in her blog, (ďover a tuscan stoveĒ) she took another pizza workshop with Gabrielle Bonci.

http://www.divinacucina-blog.com/2012/01/passion-for-pizza-bonci.html

It would be interesting to hear from Judy what she learned in this current pizza workshop, in addition to what she posted on her blog.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: RamirOk on January 28, 2012, 12:39:15 AM
Last night pizza, refried beans base, mozzarella and chihuahua cheese, chorizo and peppers.
Happy with the result but I'm still looking for a more open crumb, just a little more. I refuse to believe that it's the best results that I can get with the flours that I can get in my area.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dmcavanagh on January 28, 2012, 02:01:27 AM
RamirOk

Perhaps the amount of topping is keeping you from the more open crumb you seek. That much topping is weighting down your crust making it hard to get all you can out of "oven spring". Try making a minimally topped pie and see what happens. I think your quest for a more open crumb will be realized.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: RamirOk on January 28, 2012, 06:17:28 PM
dmcavanagh,
I have that problem with previous pies but now I pre-bake, this time I put the bean base then pre-bake then I put the other toppings and again to the oven.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on January 29, 2012, 09:07:10 AM
Ramir,
  It looks pretty good to me. However, I think like dmc said it could be the weight of the toppings.  Alternatively, it could be your hydration level or the type of flour. I know for myself, I get my best hole structure around 73-75% hydration. Anything more and I have found some structural problems with my doughs. Regarding the flour, I know you said things are limited in your area, you may want to talk to the local bakery to see if could purchase some of their flour.
Jim
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: buceriasdon on January 29, 2012, 09:27:39 AM
Jimmy, The bakeries here where I am in Mexico don't have any better flour than I can buy off the shelf. I've looked at their sacks, nothing any better than what I can get.
Don
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: giulio.fabris on February 04, 2012, 12:25:40 PM
Hi all, I'm new to this forum and I thought I'd contribute to this excellent thread with some of my latest experiments!

All doughs have 80% hydration.

The first and the second are made with 70% type 00 flour, and 30% spelt flour.
The third is made with 40% type 0 flour, 40% spelt flour, and 20% wheat flour.
The fourth is made with 70% type 2 flour, and 30% spelt flour.
The fifth is made with a mix of type 0 flour, spelt flour and enkir flour.

I'm currently getting good results with a rising time of 36 hours.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on February 04, 2012, 01:17:13 PM
Welcome Giulio - Stunning contribution here. A couple of questions - after trying the four different flour variations, what was your preference? Also, are you using cold or room temp fermentation for the 36 hours?

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: buceriasdon on February 04, 2012, 01:22:28 PM
John said it right. Stunning! Welcome to the forum
Don
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 04, 2012, 02:03:04 PM
Giulio,

I also welcome you to the forum!  I agree with John and Don, those are outstanding pies.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dmcavanagh on February 04, 2012, 02:14:08 PM
Wow, some serious topping on those pies. Looks delicious.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: giulio.fabris on February 04, 2012, 08:28:56 PM
Thanks for the welcome guys!

@dellavecchia: my preference so far is for the mix of type 0 flour, spelt and enkir. It came out with the crispiest crust, while remaining soft and light inside.
I'm using cold fermentation, in the lowest part of my fridge.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: RamirOk on February 26, 2012, 05:23:07 PM
So I make these pizza last week and was very happy with the result, I stick with the same recipe that I was using but now I  up the percentage of water to 80% and find a better flour, the brand is called Cisne de Oro it has a better flavor and hold more its shape.

Please try to ignore the messy background, I'm going to improve my setup for my next photos.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on February 26, 2012, 08:17:07 PM
RamirOk,

Your crumb structure looks great!  :) Nice job.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Greenline on March 03, 2012, 06:09:56 PM
Been at Pizzarium today, here's what I got. The pizza was fantastic, I think it's the best I've ever had here. They now sell a type of flour called "Pan di sempre" that is a mix of spelt, enkir and wheat and the guy at the cashier told a lady that it's what they use for pizza. I bought one kg to play with! :)
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on March 03, 2012, 06:21:15 PM
Been at Pizzarium today, here's what I got. The pizza was fantastic, I think it's the best I've ever had here. They now sell a type of flour called "Pan di sempre" that is a mix of spelt, enkir and wheat and the guy at the cashier told a lady that it's what they use for pizza. I bought one kg to play with! :)

Killer score on the flour. How was the texture of the crumb - did you get it reheated or room temp?

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on March 03, 2012, 06:36:28 PM
Greenline,
I am truly envious that one: you have his flour, and two: you get to eat at Pizzarium. I have a quick question for you, I noticed that the taglio on the right is a little thinner than the other two, does it appear that Bonci is deliberately making pizze of various thicknesses or did the thickness of those slices happen to be a coincidence?
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on March 03, 2012, 07:55:22 PM
Greenline

Your Pizzarium slices sure do look fantastic and am glad you scored a bag of ďPan di sempreĒ flour.   :)

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on March 03, 2012, 07:57:59 PM
A man had talked to me awhile ago at market about jovial einkorn flour http://www.jovialfoods.com/products/einkorn-flour.html  http://store.jovialfoods.com/Organic_Einkorn_Flour_p/01100.htm and told me it made such good bread and dough.  I wonder if anyone knows if jovial einkorn flour could be mixed with spelt and another flour to get the same protein content as the flour Gabrielle uses.  Did any member ever use jovial einkorn flour in combination with other flours for a Pizzarium pizza?  I really donít remember if anyone tried einkorn flour with other flours. 

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on March 04, 2012, 09:03:44 AM
Norma,
I found some technical information pertaining to Mulino Marino (MM) flour http://www.profumidalforno.it/portal/laboratorio/ingredienti/farina/farine_mulino_marino.  It appears the average protein content of the Pan di Sempre blended flour is 13.5%.   The MM enkir flour has a protein content of 20%, I couldn't find any info about their farro or spelt flour/. In any case, they must be blending these varieties into lower protein flours in smaller amounts to maintain 13.5% or the pure enkir flour is not sifted and they bolt it into finer particles for the Pan di Sempre.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on March 04, 2012, 11:00:41 AM
Norma,
I found some technical information pertaining to Mulino Marino (MM) flour http://www.profumidalforno.it/portal/laboratorio/ingredienti/farina/farine_mulino_marino.  It appears the average protein content of the Pan di Sempre blended flour is 13.5%.   The MM enkir flour has a protein content of 20%, I couldn't find any info about their farro or spelt flour/. In any case, they must be blending these varieties into lower protein flours in smaller amounts to maintain 13.5% or the pure enkir flour is not sifted and they bolt it into finer particles for the Pan di Sempre.


Jimmy,

Thanks so much for the information about the flour Gabrielle uses. I canít understand what that link means that you posted.  Is that for the blend? Where did you find out that the Pan di Sempre blended
flour average is 13.5 % protein?  Do you recall what you posted at Reply 843 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg160411.html#msg160411 about the Jovial einkorn flour having 13.333% protein?  I can purchase spelt flour near me at our local Country Store, but I am not sure if it is the Wheat Montana Farms brand or the Essential Eating Spelt.  http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/products/search?searchText=spelt+flour  I will have to call them to find out that information. If the Jovial einkorn flour is 13.333% protein, I donít I know how to figure out how much of a another flour (maybe pizzeria or fine durum flour) and spelt to add for an experiment.  Maybe I will do some wet gluten mass tests on the Pizzeria flour, the fine durum flour I have and also purchase some spelt and the Jovial einkorn to do wet gluten mass tests on. 

Awhile ago I thought I had found the kind of flour Gabrielle used and posted a picture of it at Reply 239  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg122180.html#msg122180  Maybe he never used that flour or since has changed.

Do you or anyone else have any other thoughts of how to decide how to go about getting a protein blended flour of 13.5% with jovial einkorn, another flour and spelt flour?

It says at this link that there is free shipping offer now if your used the code FREESHIP2012 http://www.jovialfoods.com/

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on March 04, 2012, 11:51:36 AM
Norma,
Thanks for the link and the free shipping code. I may have to purchase some. ;D
The technical paper was one of the links on the page. The direct link to the technical paper for the Pan di Sempre is http://www.profumidalforno.it/portal/sites/default/files/marino/pandisempre.pdf

I will translate some of the paper for you:
"PRODUZIONE E USI: Farina prodotta da Cereali Biologici Italiani (grano tenero,  farro, Enkir) altamente selezionati opportunamente miscelati per ottenere una farina adatta alla preparazione di pane, pizza, pasta fresca e secca, dolci, biscotti, grissini, e tutti gli altri usi. Si specifica che questa farina è priva di aggiunte di glutine e altri miglioratori."
PRODUCTION AND USES: Italian Organic Flour produced from grains (white flour-that could be made from 00, 0, or 1, Emmer wheat, and Enkir) selected for and appropriately mixed to obtain a flour suitable for making bread, pizza, fresh and dry pasta, cakes, biscuits, bread sticks, and all other uses . We emphasize that this flour has no added gluten or other enhancers.

The next paragraph only says that the flour and equipment conform to the law.

Color: Ivory white with spots of germ
Consistency: Powdery to the touch, slightly cohesive
Odor: Typical of stone-ground wheat flour natural, free from abnormal odor (mold, fermented, etc.)
Flavor: Normal, not rancid, healthy and attractive

Moisture: 15.5
Gluten: 11.0
Alvenogram: W = 300; P/L = 0.5
Falling number: 300 sec
Protein: 13.5
Absorption: 57.5

The last few characteristics talk about aflatoxins, pests, chloroform counts.  

As far as the correct mix to get to 13.5, that is a good question. I could probably come up with an equation to get the proportion of the mixed flours to 13.5%. However, the tricky part could be what to use as a base flour (AP, bread, 00 etc) and what other flours to include into the mix to approximate the Pan di Sempre: emmer, spelt, enkir, durum etc. Since Williams Sonoma is carrying the MM brand now, I may call them up to see if they have access to the Pan di Sempre flour or if they could order it.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on March 04, 2012, 01:01:42 PM
Norma,
Thanks for the link and the free shipping code. I may have to purchase some. ;D
The technical paper was one of the links on the page. The direct link to the technical paper for the Pan di Sempre is http://www.profumidalforno.it/portal/sites/default/files/marino/pandisempre.pdf

I will translate some of the paper for you:
"PRODUZIONE E USI: Farina prodotta da Cereali Biologici Italiani (grano tenero,  farro, Enkir) altamente selezionati opportunamente miscelati per ottenere una farina adatta alla preparazione di pane, pizza, pasta fresca e secca, dolci, biscotti, grissini, e tutti gli altri usi. Si specifica che questa farina è priva di aggiunte di glutine e altri miglioratori."
PRODUCTION AND USES: Italian Organic Flour produced from grains (white flour-that could be made from 00, 0, or 1, Emmer wheat, and Enkir) selected for and appropriately mixed to obtain a flour suitable for making bread, pizza, fresh and dry pasta, cakes, biscuits, bread sticks, and all other uses . We emphasize that this flour has no added gluten or other enhancers.

The next paragraph only says that the flour and equipment conform to the law.

Color: Ivory white with spots of germ
Consistency: Powdery to the touch, slightly cohesive
Odor: Typical of stone-ground wheat flour natural, free from abnormal odor (mold, fermented, etc.)
Flavor: Normal, not rancid, healthy and attractive

Moisture: 15.5
Gluten: 11.0
Alvenogram: W = 300; P/L = 0.5
Falling number: 300 sec
Protein: 13.5
Absorption: 57.5

The last few characteristics talk about aflatoxins, pests, chloroform counts.  

As far as the correct mix to get to 13.5, that is a good question. I could probably come up with an equation to get the proportion of the mixed flours to 13.5%. However, the tricky part could be what to use as a base flour (AP, bread, 00 etc) and what other flours to include into the mix to approximate the Pan di Sempre: emmer, spelt, enkir, durum etc. Since Williams Sonoma is carrying the MM brand now, I may call them up to see if they have access to the Pan di Sempre flour or if they could order it.


Jimmy,

Thanks for the link to the technical paper for the specs for the Pan di Sempre.  ;D I guess I didnít look enough. 

Thanks also for the translations.  :) I appreciated that.

I would be interested in knowing is Williams Sonoma carries any of the Pan di Sempre flour.

I also think it would be really hard to be able to try blended flours to get everything right, at least for me.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on March 04, 2012, 04:14:42 PM
Norma,
I completely agree with you. I think this one maybe tricky to formulate.  If I can get a hold of the Pan di Sempre from Williams Sonoma, it would a least offer me a baseline for comparison against an approximated blend.  We will see what becomes of it when I call. I am seeing the website now offers the brand online for delivery http://www.williams-sonoma.com/products/mulino-marino-flour/?pkey=e|mulino|1|best|0|1|24||1&cm_src=PRODUCTSEARCH||NoFacet-_-NoFacet-_-NoMerchRules-_-

If I can get a hold of the flour, I hope it is better than the Buratto. I was completely underwhelmed by that flour, especially given the price.   >:(
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: norma427 on March 04, 2012, 05:09:07 PM
Norma,
I completely agree with you. I think this one maybe tricky to formulate.  If I can get a hold of the Pan di Sempre from Williams Sonoma, it would a least offer me a baseline for comparison against an approximated blend.  We will see what becomes of it when I call. I am seeing the website now offers the brand online for delivery http://www.williams-sonoma.com/products/mulino-marino-flour/?pkey=e|mulino|1|best|0|1|24||1&cm_src=PRODUCTSEARCH||NoFacet-_-NoFacet-_-NoMerchRules-_-

If I can get a hold of the flour, I hope it is better than the Buratto. I was completely underwhelmed by that flour, especially given the price.   >:(

Jimmy,

Best of luck with the new Mulino Marino Flour.  :) Let me know if you purchased some and how it works.  Thanks for the link.

Norma
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on March 04, 2012, 05:31:46 PM
Norma,
I called Willians Sonoma and  "no dice" on the Pan di Sempre flour at the present time. Oh well... back to the drawing board.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Greenline on March 04, 2012, 06:24:56 PM
Quote from: dellavecchia
Killer score on the flour. How was the texture of the crumb - did you get it reheated or room temp?

The very first time I went to Pizzarium I tried to have some pizza at room temp but it was a bit "gummy" and difficult to chew, although still good to the taste. Since then, I always have my pizza reheated. The crumb had an "airy" texture and literally melted in my mouth, while the thin crust on the bottom provided the necessary crunch. For the first time I noticed that the crust of the bottom was thinner than what I do at home, so I'll try to work on that next time.

Quote from: JimmyG
I am truly envious that one: you have his flour, and two: you get to eat at Pizzarium. I have a quick question for you, I noticed that the taglio on the right is a little thinner than the other two, does it appear that Bonci is deliberately making pizze of various thicknesses or did the thickness of those slices happen to be a coincidence?

Wow you have very good observation skill, the slice on the right was indeed thinner than the rest. In my opinion this is just a coincidence, I've been there many times and found that the thickness has some variability even for the same type of pizza (and so does the taste by the way, sometimes it's extraordinarily good, sometimes a bit less than that).

Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Greenline on March 04, 2012, 06:26:42 PM
If I can get a hold of the flour, I hope it is better than the Buratto. I was completely underwhelmed by that flour, especially given the price.   >:(

Me too. I heard great things on the Buratto but in the end it just did not work for me, maybe it's simply a matter of taste.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: RamirOk on March 05, 2012, 04:51:24 PM
Here is some pics of the slices that I try at pizzarium.
Salmon, burrata and potato; potato and mozzarella and pizza rossa. The one with salmon have a different dough it was darker and was more rich in flavor, I guess more farro.
Also for me was the best pizza I ever had.

And the last 2 photos because I wanted to make the most of my trip to Rome, amazing experience.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on March 05, 2012, 11:54:27 PM
Ramir,
   I am truly jealous. How did you like the salmon, potato and burrata slice? Sounds like a unique combo.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: RamirOk on March 06, 2012, 12:50:42 AM
Jimmy,
Was pretty unique and very good, I have never tried burrata before it was a little messy but amazing. The flavors were quite strong, after they reheat the slice they spray something like water. The guy said me what was that but in italian and very fast, but after the first bite my guess is that was lemon juice.

I would eat it again of course but I wouldn't eat a bigger slice because the flavors are very strong.

But that's what I like about Bonci he risks in the search for new and better flavors. In the course he make more than 20 different kinds of pizza and one of my (19) favorites have lemon zest; never imagine that on a pizza.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: RamirOk on March 11, 2012, 01:06:25 PM
Interesting stuff, http://www.scattidigusto.it/2012/03/11/foodblogger-bonci-smonta-i-miti-della-lievitazione-a-culinaria-2012/ (http://www.scattidigusto.it/2012/03/11/foodblogger-bonci-smonta-i-miti-della-lievitazione-a-culinaria-2012/).
If anyone could do better translation than google would be great.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: Bob1 on March 11, 2012, 03:07:41 PM
Good work on the thread everyone.  Just a side note for those that are interested.  If you have an India food mart near your home you can buy small bags of soy, and many other odd flours, for real cheap.  I mention this as Matt had soy in his mix. 

Bob
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: BeerdedOne on March 11, 2012, 06:48:02 PM
Hello!  Since visiting Pizzarium last summer I've been longing to reproduce something close to the delicious texture and taste of Bonci's pies, finally I've been inspired by the many contributors here to take a shot.

In an effort to keep it simple and work forward from the basics, I started with 100% AP Flour (10.5%), 80% hydration, 4% oil, 2% salt, .7 ADY, standard Bonci tricolore class recipe.  I used a TF of .15.   All hand mixed, 4 regeneri, technique straight out of the youtube video's:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkebF-jotmw

24 hour bulk fermentation at 40F, 1 hour proof at room temp (67F), followed by a quick and gentle reshaping into a steel pan and preheated oven at 475F. Baked the pie on top of a stone for 20 min.

I'm reasonably encouraged and happy with my first attempt.  It's not mind-bendingly awesome, but pretty decent pizza.  On the good side, the pizza baked uniformly thick, and the crumb was light and tasty out of the oven, nice thin golden crunch on the bottom of the pie.  The issues I have are:

1) crumb structure could be a little more open

2) soft and delicate crumb texture and good flavor, but seems a bit dense for 0.15 TF?

3) Initially the pie was soft and yielding with decent springback.  After cooling and reheating (2hrs at room temp), the pie had a much more chewy, less yielding crumb (particularly the edges) which is not how the Bonci pies reheat at all in my experience.  Is this entirely due to it drying out at room temperature?  Perhaps I should underbake a bit if I want to cool and reheat for later consumption?

Points one and two might be the same issue, which may be under-developed gluten / flour too weak / bit of both?

It seems like the next steps for me might be to 1) use a higher protein content flour (thinking 100% Hard Spring Wheat from the nearby Bob's Red Mill)
2) increase the room temp proof time following bulk ferment from 1 hr. to more like 3-4 hours, 3) possibly remove the pizza sooner (maybe 15 minutes or so, if I plan to not top and reheat immediately).  Do these seem like reasonable next steps?




  
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on March 11, 2012, 07:48:49 PM
Points one and two might be the same issue, which may be under-developed gluten / flour too weak / bit of both?

Hello and welcome. I think you did a fantastic job on your first try. I would try a higher protein flour and more time at room temp to get the oven spring you want and a more tender crumb. If you do use a higher protein flour, though, you might want to consider using a mixer to develop the gluten. It is up to you. I look forward to seeing your experimentation and results.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: BeerdedOne on March 11, 2012, 08:02:17 PM
If you do use a higher protein flour, though, you might want to consider using a mixer to develop the gluten.

Thanks, for the kind words of advice, John.  I have a KA 600 mixer.  If I were to use it, do you have any advice on how long/speed and with what attachment (paddle?) to perform the initial mix?  I skipped the mixer because the style seems to call for a gentle hands-off approach and I was afraid I'd over work the dough.

I assume that I should use the mixer to do the initial incorporation of ingredients / hydration of the dough and then continue with the stretch and fold / rigeneri steps as laid out by Bonci in his classes.  Would this be a good approach? 
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on March 11, 2012, 09:19:04 PM
Thanks, for the kind words of advice, John.  I have a KA 600 mixer.  If I were to use it, do you have any advice on how long/speed and with what attachment (paddle?) to perform the initial mix?  I skipped the mixer because the style seems to call for a gentle hands-off approach and I was afraid I'd over work the dough.

I assume that I should use the mixer to do the initial incorporation of ingredients / hydration of the dough and then continue with the stretch and fold / rigeneri steps as laid out by Bonci in his classes.  Would this be a good approach?  

I guess it depends on the flour you use. If it is a strong flour, you might want to do 3 minutes on speed 4 after you incorporate and rest for 20 minutes. Use the dough hook. The dough may start to look smoother and drag long strands from the side of the bowl. Give it another 1-2 minutes on the slowest speed and see if it starts to get even less sticky. Once you have this done, let it rest for 20 minutes in bulk and then stretch and fold. Then see if you get the dough even smoother. You may need another stretch and fold - maybe not. At this point, if the flour is strong enough, you might even go 48 hours in the fridge - again, it just depends on what you use. Let the flour be your guide for the workflow, not the other way around.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: RamirOk on March 11, 2012, 09:20:22 PM
Hi BeerdedOne and welcome to the forum and I agree that you do a great looking pie for your first try, I would change the TF. Bonci use a TF of .133, depending of the topping of the pizza it can rise more and he also left the dough to proof for 2 hours. You need to be very gentle with the dough before you put it on the pan and with a higher protein content flour I'm sure your going to see a lot improvement in your next pizzas.

Good look and keep sharing your results!
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: BeerdedOne on March 11, 2012, 09:49:33 PM
Thanks, RamirOK, I will definitely try a longer proof before the bake and make adjustments to the TF based on the results.

John, I'll try the KA for the next pie, thanks for the suggestions!  I don't know enough about how to 'feel' gluten development to know when I've reached the right point to stop with the stretch and folds.  However, I know what the last dough felt like and based on the resulting pie, it seems like I need just a wee bit more gluten development to get a more open crumb, so i'll work it just a bit more this next time.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: parallei on March 11, 2012, 09:51:39 PM
Welcome O Bearded One.

I contend you can get a hell of spring with AP at 80% Hydration.  Though a stronger flour will certainly work, as noted above.

Quote
24 hour bulk fermentation at 40F, 1 hour proof at room temp (67F), followed by a quick and gentle reshaping into a steel pan and preheated oven at 475F. Baked the pie on top of a stone for 20 min.

You may want to consider a longer time at room temp after you take it out of the fridge.  I don't know what others do, but I let it come to room temp for an hour or so, take it out of the container and gently fold, cover and let sit for an hour, then form and into the pan.  But that is just me.

Great first attempt!  Keep us posted....
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on March 11, 2012, 11:56:21 PM
Welcome,
It looks like you are getting some great results already.
Quote
It seems like the next steps for me might be to 1) use a higher protein content flour (thinking 100% Hard Spring Wheat from the nearby Bob's Red Mill)
2) increase the room temp proof time following bulk ferment from 1 hr. to more like 3-4 hours, 3) possibly remove the pizza sooner (maybe 15 minutes or so, if I plan to not top and reheat immediately).  Do these seem like reasonable next steps?
I don't know how much more I could add, it sounds like you have already gotten some good advice from the other members. The only thing I might add is to shoot for a flour with a protein content between 13-14%. As myself and one of the other members previously discussed at reply 978 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg174864.html#msg174864I the Mulino Marino brand appears to be higher in protein both for their standard white flours and their mixes. I look forward to seeing your results.
Jim
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: giulio.fabris on March 12, 2012, 03:14:40 AM
Interesting stuff, http://www.scattidigusto.it/2012/03/11/foodblogger-bonci-smonta-i-miti-della-lievitazione-a-culinaria-2012/ (http://www.scattidigusto.it/2012/03/11/foodblogger-bonci-smonta-i-miti-della-lievitazione-a-culinaria-2012/).
If anyone could do better translation than google would be great.


If others are interested as well, I can translate it.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: giulio.fabris on March 12, 2012, 03:18:08 AM
Points one and two might be the same issue, which may be under-developed gluten / flour too weak / bit of both?

It seems like the next steps for me might be to 1) use a higher protein content flour (thinking 100% Hard Spring Wheat from the nearby Bob's Red Mill)


Hi there and welcome!

Have you tried mixing in some spelt flour? I'm thinking about 30% of the total amount you're using; it could help with the protein content.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: giulio.fabris on March 12, 2012, 04:02:16 PM
Norma,
I completely agree with you. I think this one maybe tricky to formulate.  If I can get a hold of the Pan di Sempre from Williams Sonoma, it would a least offer me a baseline for comparison against an approximated blend.  We will see what becomes of it when I call. I am seeing the website now offers the brand online for delivery http://www.williams-sonoma.com/products/mulino-marino-flour/?pkey=e|mulino|1|best|0|1|24||1&cm_src=PRODUCTSEARCH||NoFacet-_-NoFacet-_-NoMerchRules-_-

If I can get a hold of the flour, I hope it is better than the Buratto. I was completely underwhelmed by that flour, especially given the price.   >:(

Pandisempre is a very nice mix, I've been using it lately.
Which kind of issues did you find with the Buratto Jimmy?
I've been using that quite often too and I'm quite happy with it; I'm posting a couple of pictures of the result with a 80% Buratto / 20% spelt mix.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: parallei on March 12, 2012, 11:19:40 PM
giulio,

Welcome! That is a very handsome pie. :chef:

May I ask what the toppings are?  Tuna or chicken, leeks?  Whatever you've used, it sure looks tasty.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: giulio.fabris on March 13, 2012, 03:12:52 AM
giulio,

Welcome! That is a very handsome pie. :chef:

May I ask what the toppings are?  Tuna or chicken, leeks?  Whatever you've used, it sure looks tasty.

Thank you!
The toppings are tuna, leeks, parsley and red garlic mate.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: JimmyG on March 13, 2012, 02:29:37 PM
Guilio,
Nice pie! I have been wanting to do a fish pie for some time now. I may try a pie topped with swordfish, capers and lemon leaves in the future, if I can determine what type of cheese to use with it.
Quote
Which kind of issues did you find with the Buratto Jimmy?
I've been using that quite often too and I'm quite happy with it; I'm posting a couple of pictures of the result with a 80% Buratto / 20% spelt mix.
The problem I had with the flour was the taste. It is not that I found the flavor to be unpleasant, just too wheaty for pizza. I tried the flour in a sourdough loaf, however, and it was fantastic. However, there are other flour mixes that I prefer more than Buratto. My new favorite mix is a 80% all-purpose and 20% kumut flour mixture.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dmcavanagh on March 13, 2012, 03:50:11 PM
Guilio,
Nice pie! I have been wanting to do a fish pie for some time now. I may try a pie topped with swordfish, capers and lemon leaves in the future, if I can determine what type of cheese to use with it. The problem I had with the flour was the taste. It is not that I found the flavor to be unpleasant, just too wheaty for pizza. I tried the flour in a sourdough loaf, however, and it was fantastic. However, there are other flour mixes that I prefer more than Buratto. My new favorite mix is a 80% all-purpose and 20% kumut flour mixture.

Jimmyg

 I've tried some attempts at the Pizzarium pie and I agree with you, when you start to stray from the regular white flour we are so used to, the pizza just becomes something different, and not always in a good way. I feel that the real star of the Pizzarium pie is the many and copious toppings. Bonci has a larger than life personality which accounts as much for his fame as his pizza dough does. I'll give kamut a try if I can find it, but overall I'm not impressed with most of these ancient grains. Just a bit to heavy and earthy for my tastes.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: BeerdedOne on March 14, 2012, 03:25:49 PM
Today I mixed up a new batch of pizza in teglia dough, using the advice from John and others.  This time I chose a 100% hard spring wheat flour with 13.5% protein content.  I also incorporated a 20 minute autolyse using 100% of my water and 70% of my flour.  Finally I mixed the dough for about 8 minutes on my KA, incorporating the remaining ingredients and adding the remaining flour a little at a time.

When I turned the dough ball out to work a couple of rigeneri, I immediately could tell the difference, as this flour had significantly more gluten development than my previous, hand-kneaded, batch using 11.5% AP flour.  The dough was significantly stiffer, although it softened up between rigeneri but would stiffen again after two or three folds.. my fear is that the gluten development with the mixer was too much to yield a soft crumb, and that the pizza will be chewy.  It's definitely going to bake up differently, hopefully for the better!
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: dellavecchia on March 14, 2012, 04:21:51 PM
Today I mixed up a new batch of pizza in teglia dough, using the advice from John and others.  This time I chose a 100% hard spring wheat flour with 13.5% protein content.  I also incorporated a 20 minute autolyse using 100% of my water and 70% of my flour.  Finally I mixed the dough for about 8 minutes on my KA, incorporating the remaining ingredients and adding the remaining flour a little at a time.

When I turned the dough ball out to work a couple of rigeneri, I immediately could tell the difference, as this flour had significantly more gluten development than my previous, hand-kneaded, batch using 11.5% AP flour.  The dough was significantly stiffer, although it softened up between rigeneri but would stiffen again after two or three folds.. my fear is that the gluten development with the mixer was too much to yield a soft crumb, and that the pizza will be chewy.  It's definitely going to bake up differently, hopefully for the better!


You can up the hydration if needed, as higher protein flour requires more water. But if you are already at or near 80% hydration, just knock down the mixing by a few minutes. Once you let it bulk for a long time it will soften substantially. Let us know how the crumb turns out.

John
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: parallei on March 14, 2012, 10:46:51 PM
Guilio,

Quote
and red garlic mate

How was the red garlic prepared? I'm not sure what you mean by a "mate".

Thanks,

Paul
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: giulio.fabris on March 15, 2012, 02:25:51 AM
Guilio,

How was the red garlic prepared? I'm not sure what you mean by a "mate".

Thanks,

Paul

Hi Paul,

It's just red garlic chopped and mixed in. Red garlic is a sweeter type of garlic which I tend to use a lot more than the white one.
Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: BeerdedOne on March 15, 2012, 05:53:37 PM
I'm having success with my pizza in teglia thanks to all the wonderful information in this thread, and everyone's great advice and encouragement, so thank you all!  Today's bake was just a little bit better than my first attempt, mainly because I obtained a little more tooth to the crumb, but at the same time it actually came out lighter (little bit better rise).  

I did however have to contend with an overly active fermentation, so I baked the pizza a little earlier than planned and I got a tiny bit of larger than ideal bubbles in my dough ball.  I wound up bulk fermentation after  about 19 hrs., with a 3 hour room temp final rise.  This happened because I rehydrated my ADY for 10 minutes in warm water, whereas my last attempt I simply combined the ADY directly with the dry ingredients, which made the 24 hour cold ferment more manageable.  As a result, I was forced to pop a few bubbles when forming the pizza in the pan.  Probably cut back on the yeast a little bit for the next pie so I can make it through the entire 24 hrs. ferment with a good looking dough ball.  Looking forward to fixing this issue with a third attempt.  Anyone have suggestions on how much to reduce the ADY yeast if I want to rehydrate with warm water?  I'm using the standard .7% right now, which the expanded dough tool calculated at 4.3g for my 20x14 pan at TF 0.15.

100% KABF
80% water
0.7% ADY
2% salt
4% oil



Title: Re: Pizzarium
Post by: BeerdedOne on March 15, 2012, 07:08:49 PM
So,